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-   -   X&Y's impact on competitive battling. (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=305947)

Sirfetch’d August 1st, 2013 9:16 AM

X&Y's impact on competitive battling.
 
With a new generation approaching once again the competitive battling field is about to go under some major changes. We are in the last few months of gen 5 competitive play and many players now are anticipating what gen 6 will bring. B&W gave us Dream World abilities which many veteran players despise and say ruined competitive play while others say it added a new and interesting element. So will gen 6 do the same thing? What do you hope to gain out of gen 6 competitively speaking? More spinners? More hazard setters? The elimination of DW abilities? More or less instant weather? Discuss anything that you think or hope X&Y will bring to the competitive field.

Phantasmagoric August 1st, 2013 9:35 AM

X&Y's impact on competitive battling.
 
Well, for one part, The Pokémon Company is completely revamping the Global Link and the Dream World and an image of the newly created site made specifically for X and Y has been released by them already, so by the looks of it, DW abilities aren't going to vanish into thin air, and there might even be new abilities to look forward to. Competitive battling, however, will remain the same with the Rating and Free Mode,with the occasional online tournaments , but the battle sequence with undergo major aesthetic changes that fit with the idea of X and Y 's 3D interface.

Nolafus August 1st, 2013 10:34 AM

I'm so excited for the new generation! My first pokemon game was black, so this will be my first game release with new pokemon so I have no idea how my team will adapt.

One thing I am looking for is some new and powerful grass types. I have high hopes for Chespin and its evolution being grass/dark so it might make my team if it turns out better than Shiftry.

I think it will be funny when the pokemon games just come out and everyone is using every pokemon to see which ones are going to be fit for battling. I wonder how the fairy type will change things up. Definitely looking forward to the next generation.

Keiran August 1st, 2013 10:42 AM

I'm hoping to see some improvements to the Ice-types defenses. There is only one commonly used, albeit still somewhat uncommon, Ice-type in VGC and only because it summons hail. Beyond that, its the rare Mamoswine and Weavile. Gamefreak seems so busy trying to 'nerf' Dragons by giving them another weakness, but the issue is the nearly unresisted a-bomb called Draco Meteor and the under-representation of Ice-types.

I also think they need to limit Stealth Rocks damage to x1, and lower Thunder Wave and Toxics distribution greatly. Normal-types could use some improvements too.

I guess what I hope to see is change made amongst types we have, rather than the bandage called Fairy-types.

Hikamaru August 1st, 2013 4:13 PM

I have to say, this generation will make for one interesting metagame thanks to the addition of the Fairy-type, which is Game Freak's latest measure to stop the rage of Dragons that has dominated the 4th and 5th Gen standard metagame, there may have been possibilities to nerf Dragon-types by reducing Outrage and Draco Meteor's power but they wanted to leave said moves untouched by introducing a new weakness for Dragons, and that's what the Fairy-type is. Also, so many awesome Pokemon never make it into OU mainly because of the one entry hazard that simply cuts their HP in half by just entering the field, Stealth Rock. Hence why so many Rock-weak Pokemon are not seen in OU unless if it has a helpful secondary type that neutralizes the Rock weakness. Maybe even weaken Stealth Rock's damage if needed. And with new moves and abilities coming, I hope to see all the new things in the 6th Gen competitive field and although I am worried the new X & Y Global Link may see the end of the Dream World abilities we all know, I am still hoping this generation will have one of the best metagames in Pokemon history, even more given we will be having full 3-D graphics this time around.

PlatinumDude August 1st, 2013 6:33 PM

With the introduction of the Fairy type, Dragons just may become easier to check.

If Azumarill becomes Water/Fairy too, and it gets a physical Fairy STAB, it can make a decent check to Kingdra (assuming that the rumor of Fairy resisting Dragon is true). It may even see more use in OU.

Sirfetch’d August 1st, 2013 6:41 PM

Personally I'd like to see an item introduced that extends the duration of Trick Room. I have always been a fan of Trick Room teams because in this fast paced game you can really cripple the opposing team with a TR team however, it is hard to pull one off when TR only lasts 5 turns and after you set up and boost stats you really only have about 2 or 3 turns before you have to set it up again. So maybe an item that has a similar effect to Damp Rock, but extends the duration of TR to 8 turns.

Boilurn August 1st, 2013 7:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jellicentfan1 (Post 7763342)
Personally I'd like to see an item introduced that extends the duration of Trick Room.

That's what I was thinking as well. This item should also extend the period for Gravity, Wonder Room and Magic Room, even though they affect all Pokemon on the field. As for the name, well, maybe we'll call it the Dark Clay?

I hope that there won't be another tier that adds on to our current five tier system. It gets complicated rating a Pokemon when you consider the Pokemon's moveset, ability, typing and statistics.

Quote:

I also think they need to limit Stealth Rocks damage to x1, and lower Thunder Wave and Toxics distribution greatly.
Toxic definitely needs to have a lower distribution. I don't know why GameFreak would give it to every Pokemon except for Tynamo, Wobbuffet and some pre-evolution Bug-types. It's such a strange move distribution.

Return and Frustration also shouldn't be distributed widely (Actually it shouldn't be distributed at all) because they outclass many other common Normal-type moves such as Strength, Cut, Scratch and Take Down. At least they aren't seen very often in the higher tiers due to several Pokemon resisting Normal.

wolf August 2nd, 2013 3:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 7762659)
Ultimately, this generation has been really poor. Mostly because things kept getting banned left, right and center in a futile struggle to have some sort of "balanced" metagame, which would probably be too late to have anyway (at least for BW2) by the time X/Y comes out. I'm hoping that X/Y would present with a smaller banlist of sorts to remedy the issue, but I'm not too confident of that, either.

BW OU has a fairly small ban list. Blaziken, Deoxys-D, Excadrill, Genesect, Landorus, Thundurus, and Tornadus-T isn't very much at all, especially considering that the last four of those are powerful legendary Pokemon that would eventually get banned anyway (plus Blaziken and Excadrill which are really, really good). Smogon has been very lenient with bans, and I think that has to do with the lack of balance in BW OU. Some think that if balancing BW OU requires a great deal of bans, then it's not worth trying to fix. They think that BW OU should be like this, and that if you want an balanced metagame, then play in the lower tiers instead. Some actually like smaller ban lists for no apparent reason, but they fail to realize that large ban lists are inevitable as each generation passes. I'm of the opinion that anything should be done to make the standard metagame balanced. BW OU does have the potential to be balanced, but it would require swift suspect tests that end with a lot bans (see: SR, weather, etc.). Unfortunately, Smogon can take a long time before dealing with troublesome Pokemon, so this likely isn't very possible for them. Unless they speed up their process and ban more, then we can't expect XY OU to be any better than BW OU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran777 (Post 7762769)
I'm hoping to see some improvements to the Ice-types defenses. There is only one commonly used, albeit still somewhat uncommon, Ice-type in VGC and only because it summons hail. Beyond that, its the rare Mamoswine and Weavile. Gamefreak seems so busy trying to 'nerf' Dragons by giving them another weakness, but the issue is the nearly unresisted a-bomb called Draco Meteor and the under-representation of Ice-types.

I've always wanted hail to boost Defense for Ice-types, just like how Rock-types get a Special Defense boost in sandstorm. If that happened alongside a Stealth Rock nerf (or if SR was simply banned by Smogon), then Pokemon like Walrein would be pretty effective.

Pokemonmaster187 August 2nd, 2013 10:08 PM

There should be no ban list because witch are you going to spend more time on a common pokemon like bedoof or a legendary like Zekrom. So in any case if we could use all are pokemon without qeustion the online battling would be alot better and wholike having to use only three of the six makes reall no sense to do that and by making them go to lvl fifty well that defeats the whole purpose of testing yourself against other poeple when you can't use the full value of your pokemon. This is just m opinion but I have high hopes for pokemon x/y.

SkyRyder August 2nd, 2013 10:41 PM

My hopes for 6th gen's metagame:

-A nerf to Stealth Rocks would be better than banning it. Perhaps instead of x2 and x4, it could be x1.5 and x2/x3?

-A balance to weather would be nice. I know there are teams out there built to counter weather teams, but not having instant weather was one reason why I preferred 4th gen's metagame.

-Despite not being too popular, I've always liked the idea of background attacks like Gravity, Trick Room, etc. it allowed more themed teams to be made, and I hope more of these come in X/Y.

-With the introduction to Fairy-type, I hope that the lackluster of offense in types such as Steel and Poison will be alleviated. Same goes with the defense of Ice-types.

And, of course, the obvious, guaranteed, additions they will make like more viable attacks, abilities, items, etc. along with alterations of older attacks.

Boilurn August 3rd, 2013 8:34 AM

In my opinion I don't think Stealth Rock damage needs changing. It really depends on what the Pokemon can do to mitigate this problem. For example Ho-Oh's typing makes it as we all know 4x weak to Stealth Rock, but has Roost, Regenerator and very high overall stats to compensate for its problems, and for these reasons it is only permitted in the Uber tier despite the Stealth Rock weakness.

BurningLanguages August 3rd, 2013 6:39 PM

I'm excited to see more Ghost and Normal type Pokemon. I don't have the black and white games so I haven't had the pleasure of working with those abilities however, they seem fun to have :). Even with the introduction of new Pokemon I doubt that my team will change, though I am excited for what it has in store.

Who knows? Anything can change :P. But first, I need a 3DS haha!

Pokemonmaster187 August 4th, 2013 6:12 AM

I really don't think the introduction of fairy type pokemon will stop the rain of the dragon because like all pokemon you can just overpower the other pokemon like for example I was battling a lvl 100 samuarott with a lvl 100 blaziken I lost but using one FIRE type move I destroyed over half it's health and most lvl 100 dragon types are alot more power full than blaziken so that's why I don't think fairy types will be that good cause I'll just over power them

Griffinbane August 4th, 2013 7:35 AM

Hmm. I'm expecting that a lot of people for the winter regionals will be carrying slap-dash teams. There's only about 2.5 months in between the fall and winter regionals and I'll bet that at that point, people will still be trying to figure out the best ways to use most of the new pokemon and probably only about a quarter of the pokemon will have their roles figured out.

Aeroblast August 4th, 2013 11:56 AM

I haven't paid attention to metagame for a while and quite frankly I suck at competitive battles, but my opinion is that I don't really think Fairy types will change up the metagame too much, because Dragon types are usually meant for powerful pokemon in general. If the Poison and Steel weakness are true, Iron Tail and Sludge Bomb/Wave will definitely get increased usage (as inaccurate as former is, accuracy doesn't stop the popularity of Stone edge and Focus blast).

Griffinbane August 4th, 2013 12:30 PM

Donno... the introduction of new Fairy type Pokemon I believe will have a somewhat significant impact on the metagame (OU, anyway), as well as Clefable (thinking this one will finally be decent against the Lati twins). As for the retyping old stuff, it depends on the 'mon. I seriously doubt Wigglytuff will ever improve enough to be worth using outside of lulz.

Xander Olivieri August 8th, 2013 2:21 PM

I know that the conversation if going on in X and Y forum, but it should probably be here.

Do you think the Mega Forms will have a heavy impact on competitive battles?

PlatinumDude August 8th, 2013 2:52 PM

Mega evolution Pokemon from my competitive standpoint:
-Mega Mawile's max Attack with Huge Power is 590, assuming no stat changes. But it'll have to deal with its frailty and slowness, so Thunder Wave support for it would be great. It also has Sucker Punch to compensate for its low Speed.
-Mega Absol with Magic Bounce is nice; now it won't have to fear Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp while it sets up Swords Dance. Again, its frailty will be an issue, assuming no stat changes
-Mega Ampharos is essentially an inferior Zekrom. At least it may see some more use in the lower tiers.
-Mega Lucario's Adaptability boosted Close Combat is going to hurt. A lot.
-With the reveal of Mega Blaziken, it may stay in Ubers again the next generation around.

Sirfetch’d August 8th, 2013 2:59 PM

Ultimately I feel it is going to depend on this: Will they get a high enough stat boost to make up for the loss of a held item?

PlatinumDude August 8th, 2013 6:06 PM

Here's a potential set for Mega Mawile:
-Iron Head
-(insert physical Fairy STAB here)
-Sucker Punch
-Fire Fang/Brick Break
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Item: Mega Stone

I didn't include Swords Dance because assuming no stat changes, Mega Mawile is slow and frail and won't have time to set up.

Hikamaru August 8th, 2013 6:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7774618)
Mega evolution Pokemon from my competitive standpoint:
-Mega Mawile's max Attack with Huge Power is 590, assuming no stat changes. But it'll have to deal with its frailty and slowness, so Thunder Wave support for it would be great. It also has Sucker Punch to compensate for its low Speed.
-Mega Absol with Magic Bounce is nice; now it won't have to fear Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp while it sets up Swords Dance. Again, its frailty will be an issue, assuming no stat changes
-Mega Ampharos is essentially an inferior Zekrom. At least it may see some more use in the lower tiers.
-Mega Lucario's Adaptability boosted Close Combat is going to hurt. A lot.
-With the reveal of Mega Blaziken, it may stay in Ubers again the next generation around.

About these Mega-Evolutions, I do agree with what this smart cookie said above.

Mega Blaziken is definitely Uber material and most likely will stay there. Mega Lucario is pretty darn strong with that Adaptability, making Close Combat and Aura Sphere even more dangerous, again possibly Ubers if it is considered OP. Mega Absol's Magic Bounce will definitely see it get usage a lot because it can bounce Stealth Rock and status inflicting moves back on the foe although it will probably still have "glass cannon" stats. Mega Ampharos is probably going to be in lower tiers.

Although I may be expecting power creep eventually so they may not shine as much as we think.

Cerberus87 August 8th, 2013 7:16 PM

Why are people speculating with so little confirmed info? We don't even have new moves yet (well actually, we do, but no movepools). The only thing I'm certain enough to hazard a guess is that Mega Mawile was conceived as a hard Dragon counter, because of its Steel/Fairy type. The rest, we have no idea really.

Sirfetch’d August 8th, 2013 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 7775012)
Why are people speculating with so little confirmed info? We don't even have new moves yet (well actually, we do, but no movepools). The only thing I'm certain enough to hazard a guess is that Mega Mawile was conceived as a hard Dragon counter, because of its Steel/Fairy type. The rest, we have no idea really.


Well with every generation movepools are gonna expand and this gen is no exception. No we don't know exactly how this will impact, what this thread is for to speculate.

Keiran August 8th, 2013 9:24 PM

Movepools are the only thing we can be sure on, actually, since we can work with what we have. Whats going to determine how much these affect the metagame are stat changes and if they can hold items or not..or even how these formes work at all.

Needing to hold a Mega Stone will limit the effects of these new formes, really. Lucario will have ~16% stronger STABs, but loses out on coverage strength. Scarf + Adaptibility CCs would be very scary on the other hand.

But, really. MegaBlaziken would be literally useless without a stat buff or a held item, so obviously one of these things must happen.

(Edit : Apparently theyre just temporary while in battle....probably gonna be too gimmicky to affect the competitive metagames... >.>)

PlatinumDude August 8th, 2013 10:15 PM

It's also confirmed that the Mega Evolutions have increased stats compared to their original versions. The confirmed ones so far are MegaLucario's increased Attack and MegaAbsol's increased Attack and Speed. I like both of these changes; Absol really needed a speed buff, but the increased Attack may be overkill, IMO.

Sirfetch’d August 8th, 2013 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7775295)
It's also confirmed that the Mega Evolutions have increased stats compared to their original versions. The confirmed ones so far are MegaLucario's increased Attack and MegaAbsol's increased Attack and Speed. I like both of these changes; Absol really needed a speed buff, but the increased Attack may be overkill, IMO.


It's STAB Sucker Punch is going to be very strong especially after a SD boost, but still I have the concern of will the stats get enough boost to make up for a lack of item. For example, if you are running a standard LO set on Absol will that still be more powerful than the new form that wont be able to hold LO?

JordanD August 8th, 2013 11:10 PM

I'm mostly worried about Mega Pokemon,Lucario and Mawile seem quite overpowered so far.

Sirfetch’d August 8th, 2013 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanD (Post 7775338)
I'm mostly worried about Mega Pokemon,Lucario and Mawile seem quite overpowered so far.


In their current state, no. I want to see how much of an increase they get. If Lucario's attack is raised significantly combined with adaptability I would think yes it could be very OP with Adaptability STAB Bullet punch.

SomaQL August 8th, 2013 11:21 PM

I just hope MegaPersian gets a Diamond in it's head instead of whatever gem that is

PlatinumDude August 9th, 2013 6:20 AM

Call me crazy, but does anyone think that the Cheek Pouch ability would see competitive use? Dedenne or Bunnelby may be good candidates for pinch berries, since not only will they get the stat boost, but they'll regain HP too. I think that both will have high Speed, considering that kangaroo rats and rabbits are fast in RL, so Liechi or Petaya may be better for them, depending on what other stats they get. (this is assuming that items can be transferred from Gen V to VI, or if pinch berries are made available within Gen VI)

Boilurn August 9th, 2013 7:28 AM

I probably think it would see competitive use, especially in fast-paced hard-hitting metagames such as doubles, where a quick regain of HP is helpful to avoid being 2HKOed by faster Pokemon. Not sure in singles though, we'll have to test this combo out to see if it helps these Pokemon.

PlatinumDude August 11th, 2013 5:52 PM

Okay, according to the official X/Y site, Ampharos gains Dragon Pulse, while Mawile's defenses increase when it goes Mega.

In Gens IV/V, the only Dragon move Ampharos was able to learn was Outrage, which worked off of its weaker Attack stat. I guess the addition of Dragon Pulse was done to give Mega Ampharos a specials secondary STAB to work with in Mega forme, other than using its new Dragon type to defend itself.

Mega Mawile's increased defenses are a huge welcome, IMO, since its regular forme's Defense was decent, with its Special Defense being terrible in comparison. Its low HP is still a bit of a problem, though.

Aeroblast August 11th, 2013 8:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7775789)
Call me crazy, but does anyone think that the Cheek Pouch ability would see competitive use? Dedenne or Bunnelby may be good candidates for pinch berries, since not only will they get the stat boost, but they'll regain HP too. I think that both will have high Speed, considering that kangaroo rats and rabbits are fast in RL, so Liechi or Petaya may be better for them, depending on what other stats they get. (this is assuming that items can be transferred from Gen V to VI, or if pinch berries are made available within Gen VI)

Knowing the very low defenses of such Pokemon, if the pattern follows, it'll be very tricky to get them to activate the pinch berries. I predict it'll be a gimmick at best but who knows.

Perriechu August 11th, 2013 8:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seattle (Post 7781297)
Knowing the very low defenses of such Pokemon, if the pattern follows, it'll be very tricky to get them to activate the pinch berries. I predict it'll be a gimmick at best but who knows.

It might not work as well in standard play but I can see it becoming quite a nice set to play with in NU/RU if their defenses will be bad.

Hikamaru August 11th, 2013 8:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7775789)
Call me crazy, but does anyone think that the Cheek Pouch ability would see competitive use? Dedenne or Bunnelby may be good candidates for pinch berries, since not only will they get the stat boost, but they'll regain HP too. I think that both will have high Speed, considering that kangaroo rats and rabbits are fast in RL, so Liechi or Petaya may be better for them, depending on what other stats they get. (this is assuming that items can be transferred from Gen V to VI, or if pinch berries are made available within Gen VI)

I bet Cheek Pouch could see some new use for berries like Liechi, Petaya and Salac due to the activating below 1/3 max HP effect, but also restore HP so that you're not so vulnerable to getting revenge killed by a priority move. This is certainly heightening my hopes that X and Y will have berries available in-game.

Aeroblast August 11th, 2013 9:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonomega (Post 7781304)
It might not work as well in standard play but I can see it becoming quite a nice set to play with in NU/RU if their defenses will be bad.

You're right, it will probably see use in those metagames, unless they're useless as in, Luvdisc useless. However, due to the sheer amount of power Pokemon have even in those metagames I doubt the extra HP will be useful. Plus we don't really know how much HP Cheek Pouch restores. Is it 1/2? 1/4? 1/8?

I don't usually play with Pokemon in those category unless its name is Zangoose, but for those who enjoy that metagame it could be a news.

Keiran September 11th, 2013 4:49 PM

Is it too late to bump this?

Anyways, what do you all think about the new type chart?

cbd98 September 11th, 2013 5:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran777 (Post 7828820)
Is it too late to bump this?

Anyways, what do you all think about the new type chart?

Fairy types being immune to Dragon is going to be HUGE in Gen VI. Instead of having something to tank Draco Meteors and Outrages, you can switch and be completely fine. On that note, Outrage will definitely be much less common, with a quick switch shutting it down fast. Dragon types in general will probably stop carrying choice items in fear of a wasted turn, and if a Fairy sweeper is there in Gen VI, it'll probably have no problem switching in to some threats like Garchomp and maybe even Latios on a good prediction. Also, Steel losing some resistances is okay, but Dark and Ghost moves aren't that common except for STAB or on Psychic types for Ghost. Overall, Steel and Dragon are losing some of their edge, but I think they'll still perform well. Fairy type being strong against Fire will be great too, and I think it'll be a great type to use on a team.

Griffinbane September 11th, 2013 5:02 PM

We were talking about this earlier on TC and the general consensus is that Psychic/Steel types just got boned and Scizor doesn't appreciate the nerf. Metagross is still bulky enough to carry on without too much trouble, I don't think the change will hurt Bronzong TOO much... but Jirachi just got shot from whatever tier he's currently in. Poor Superachi! isn't defensive enough to ignore the nerf.

FlamingRage September 11th, 2013 6:22 PM

I honestly don't think fairy type is going to help balance the metagame much. They have just made dragon type much easier to counter, but a pure fairy type is only weak to steel and poison. steel doesn't have many notable attackers (correct me if I'm wrong, cause at the moment I'm only thinking of Scizor, Metagross and Lucario) And now has to worry about dark types. Poison types tend to be slow and are weak to two types that are known for having great attack and spacial attack stats, ground and psychic, which are both unaffected by the type chart update.

The way I see it, while we just got rid of an over powered type, we also just got a new one.

(also, Mawile is the new Kingdra. But better.)

PlatinumDude September 11th, 2013 6:49 PM

Gengar is going to see a LOT of usage in OU when X/Y roll around. It has STAB Shadow Ball to smack around Metagross and Jirachi supereffectively. It also has STAB Sludge Bomb to hit Fairies hard. Of course, Focus Blast may still be used to hit other Steels supereffectively, like Ferrothorn.

FlamingRage September 11th, 2013 6:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7828984)
Gengar is going to see a LOT of usage in OU when X/Y roll around. It has STAB Shadow Ball to smack around Metagross and Jirachi supereffectively. It also has STAB Sludge Bomb to hit Fairies hard. Of course, Focus Blast may still be used to hit other Steels supereffectively, like Ferrothorn.

>.<
Knew I was forgetting something when I posted about poison types being slow.

let's all hope and pray that smogon doesn't handle pokemon with mega evolutions like they treated Blaziken when he got access to speed boost.

One more prediction: Uber 2. For Ubers that are too strong for normal Ubers.

Dark Azelf September 11th, 2013 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingRage (Post 7828992)
>.<
Knew I was forgetting something when I posted about poison types being slow.

let's all hope and pray that smogon doesn't handle pokemon with mega evolutions like they treated Blaziken when he got access to speed boost.

One more prediction: Uber 2. For Ubers that are too strong for normal Ubers.

Ubers is a ban list nothing more so a ban list wouldnt have a ban list, that would be silly.

I can see sub gar being annoying in XY with it having alot less checks and counters thanks to the steel nerf and poison becoming relevant to hit fairies. Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast/Sub sounds fun to face. Not lol.

Aeroblast September 11th, 2013 8:18 PM

Gengar is going to become an even bigger menace as already mentioned. What I thought was Gengar's hindrance, Ghost/Poison typing (as it makes Gengar susceptible to Psychic), is now quite a strong asset that Gengar has going for it.

Fairy is a good defensive typing though, as their only two weaknesses come from two of the least recognized attacking types, Poison and Steel. That being said, however, those two types will definitely get increased usage.

I don't think Steel losing its resistance against Ghost and Dark is a huge disadvantage in general, though it'll take some time to get used to.

Nolafus September 12th, 2013 12:55 AM

Hmm... I'm worried about fairies becoming overpowered. Gengar is definitely going to see more usage, and possibly Toxicroak. I think we should be fine as long as Gamefreak doesn't give fairy types high stats like they did to dragons. It'll be funny to see everyone using all these different pokemon, trying to see what's actually good and everything. This is going to be weird for me, as this will be the first time new pokemon will be introduced. I've done well in the CAP tier, hopefully I'll do well here too.

Hikamaru September 12th, 2013 3:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slayr231 (Post 7829272)
Hmm... I'm worried about fairies becoming overpowered. Gengar is definitely going to see more usage, and possibly Toxicroak. I think we should be fine as long as Gamefreak doesn't give fairy types high stats like they did to dragons. It'll be funny to see everyone using all these different pokemon, trying to see what's actually good and everything. This is going to be weird for me, as this will be the first time new pokemon will be introduced. I've done well in the CAP tier, hopefully I'll do well here too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seattle (Post 7829086)
Gengar is going to become an even bigger menace as already mentioned. What I thought was Gengar's hindrance, Ghost/Poison typing (as it makes Gengar susceptible to Psychic), is now quite a strong asset that Gengar has going for it.

Fairy is a good defensive typing though, as their only two weaknesses come from two of the least recognized attacking types, Poison and Steel. That being said, however, those two types will definitely get increased usage.

I don't think Steel losing its resistance against Ghost and Dark is a huge disadvantage in general, though it'll take some time to get used to.

I do have to agree with you two, Gengar might see more usage in OU not just because of Fairy-types but also the fact they removed Steel's resistance to Dark and Ghost, making Bronzong, Jirachi and Metagross more vulnerable to its Shadow Ball, plus it has Sludge Bomb to deal with Fairy-types assuming they don't have a second type that Poison is resisted by.

Given Fairy's two weaknesses aren't very common attacking types, it's safe to say it will be a good defensive type, and it can do that even better if paired with the right types. Now if there were more physical Fairy-type attacks expect Azumarill to become one heck of a great Dragon counter. Steel's nerfing could see Jirachi drop a tier, maybe even Metagross to a lesser extent. The 4x Fairy weakness is also a reason I could see Hydreigon going to UU, but it depends on which powerful Fairy-types we'll be seeing dominating the OU metagame.

I could see the likes of Salamence running Iron Tail or Hydreigon running Flash Cannon just to get past Fairy-types. The Fairy-type could also see less usage of Choice Item sets on Dragons and of course less usage of Draco Meteor and Outrage since a Fairy-type can switch in and absorb the hit.

FlamingRage September 12th, 2013 7:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7829005)
Ubers is a ban list nothing more so a ban list wouldnt have a ban list, that would be silly.

uhhh, no. Ubers was a rather popular metagame last I checked. There's no reason they shouldn't try to keep it balanced as well.

Opposite Day September 12th, 2013 8:54 AM

..so with the changes made to the type-chart does this mean that Specs Doom Desire Jirachi will see some use now other than on my gimmicky Gen IV team? ;)

Other than that, Poison actually seems to be a decent type now with resists to Poison, Gass, Fighting, Fairy, and Bug, as well as with some small nerfs to Steel allows things such as Gengar and Skuntank (hahaha) plow through Scizor and the likes, not to mention Fairies. 2xic-4drag combo to get rid of fairies anyone?

Livewire September 12th, 2013 11:59 AM

I think we all know that Fairy's strengths and weaknesses are going to change a lot of things, (Imagine being able to switch into Draco Meteor or Outrage for free, basically) but something else to watch for is that Steel lost two of its resistances, to Dark and Ghost, if I remember right. Throw in Fairy's immunity to Dragon, and it's become clear that they're trying to take Dragon and Steel down a peg, and even things out in terms of strength and usage.

Something else I'd like to see is well, less weather overall, and something or someway to deal with SR better. Something else I'd REALLY like to see is Fire types become a little more viable, hopefully that Pyroar Pokemon has the stats to go with that awesome design.

Keiran September 12th, 2013 12:35 PM

Yeah, unless Pyroar has an awful stat spread or a terrible movepool it will definitely be common. Its the only Pokemon to resist Fairy and Ghost, and it comes with Unnerve support. Anything that relies on the common Chople, Occa, Yache, Shuca, Haban, Chesto, Sitrus & Lum berries will get roasted.

It seems like they really wanted to nerf Dragon and Fighting, and probably did it too harshly. Dark seems to have been thrown in with them, for some reason, which is pretty lame.

Also, does this mean Metagross OHKOs itself with Foul Play? Lol

PlatinumDude September 12th, 2013 3:02 PM

In the Gen VI metagame, I can see Dragons like Garchomp and Haxorus running Iron Head/Tail just to get past Fairies. In Ubers, Dialga can do the same with Iron Tail or Flash Cannon; it never even used its Steel STAB ever.

Dark Azelf September 12th, 2013 4:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7830089)
In the Gen VI metagame, I can see Dragons like Garchomp and Haxorus running Iron Head/Tail just to get past Fairies. In Ubers, Dialga can do the same with Iron Tail or Flash Cannon; it never even used its Steel STAB ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me
unless we get a levitating fairy, Garchomp wont have to stray from the flawless Ground/Dragon/Fire coverage as STAB EQ will maul grounded fairies just fine whilst fire still maintaining coverage against things like Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress and Bronzong etc.

Fairies niche will probably be walling weaker, less hard hitting ones such as [email protected], Dragonite, Kingdra, Hydreigon etc.

Garchomp and Haxorus get Swords Dance and as thus are harder to wall as they hit ALOT harder than the aforementioned, the former having STAB EQ to contend as i said earlier and the latter having great neutral coverage and base 147 atk.


Also super effective Iron Head hits fairies with 10 more power than Garchomp's STAB EQ and Iron Tail has horrible accuracy aka honestly its not worth using a steel move on chomp.

Id probably only even think about using on a weak scarf set or as a filler move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingRage (Post 7829586)
uhhh, no. Ubers was a rather popular metagame last I checked. There's no reason they shouldn't try to keep it balanced as well.

Umm yeahno, really go and learn about it, its a ban list. It may be a playable metagame but its just a ban list at the end of the day so it isnt going to be balanced. Did you even think before you typed? If it wasnt then things like Arceus would be banned from it lol, also why do you think there hasnt been any higher tier than ubers in any gen?

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tier#Uber

Xander Olivieri September 12th, 2013 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7830211)
Umm yeahno, really go and learn about it, its a ban list. It may be a playable metagame but its just a ban list at the end of the day so it isnt going to be balanced. Did you even think before you typed? If it wasnt then things like Arceus would be banned from it lol, also why do you think there hasnt been any higher tier than ubers in any gen?

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tier#Uber

All tiers are effectively ban lists for the one below. You can't use Ubers in anything below uber.

You can't use OU in anything below OU.

You can't use UU in anything below UU.

You can't use RU in anything below RU.

The entire concept of a tier list is an effective ban list for those who play in lower tiers.

Uber tier itself is no holds bar, everything goes in the Fan made competitive play.

You are also better off linking to Smogon if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about. Its better at keeping its play information as up to date as possible and is the leading site in terms of metagame regulations.

Clause and Banlists via Smogon. So really, read before you decide to post. While effectively you are right about Uber being a "Ban List" it is not just a ban list. In any Metagame, unless specifying a tier all Pokemon are available for play. Only until you specify a tier in which you are participating and using their rules do any form of ban lists appear. If you play NU like majority of PC, then everything from RU and up is banned from use because they belong to a different tier.

It is a rather popular Metagame list. It IS a metagame format. AND it is a Ban List ONLY if you are playing in a tier below it.

All of this is also moot when you look at "Official Metagame rules" which are made by TPC. This list has no Tiers and follows more along the lines of the "Uber" list with the only exception of ALL Event related Legendary Pokemon:
Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Manaphy (Phione by association), Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus, Victini, Keldeo, Meloetta, and Genesect.

Box Art Legendary Pokemon:
Lugia, Ho-oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem.

Leaving Mewtwo banned due to sheer power and Chatot banned due to Chatter.

Those are the only Pokemon banned from official tournaments and in official Metagames.

So depending on where you want to see what is on the ban list, depends on what Metagame you play. Unofficial anything not registered in or below your immediate Tier is banned. That's how the unofficial (Smogon) Tier lists works. Its entire existance is essentially a fully detailed Ban list to balance out variously different tournament types for different play styles of people.



I've said my peace concerning the Fairy types back in the X and Y forum. I do not see many of them really doing anything. I don't see many getting any practical use due to being fairly weak. Type is ok, but you need more than type. If they don't have the stats to back up their immunity then they won't be used as much. Look at Ice types. Its better to use their attacks than the Pokemon. If the Fairy Pokemon are weak stat wise, I see more of their attacks being utilized by other Pokemon than them.

Mawile and Azumarill being the only two exceptions but both will have to contend with their own checkers which may become more common, one for Marill/Azumarill being Tentacruel who is an effective shield against the tiny little water rodent tank.

The biggest change X and Y is bringing to the table IMO is the removal of Ghost and Dark from Steel's resistances. Metagross, Jirachi, and Bronzong lose two neutral damages and gain two weaknesses. Likewise the new Honedge now has to fear Ghost and Dark types as well.

A really good thing is Sableye and Spiritomb no longer have no weaknesses due to type match up.

MrBananaMan212 September 12th, 2013 6:19 PM

Apparently Steel does not resist Ghost or Dark in this gen. That will cause lots of chage

Dark Azelf September 12th, 2013 6:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderO (Post 7830313)

Clause and Banlists via Smogon. So really, read before you decide to post.

Unneeded really because it doesnt explain how tiers work.

Anyway, a few things

1. I linked there because it explained tiers? It would have been the same if i linked to smogon, which ill do now ive found the link.http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_tiers Oh look it says the same thing as bulba, regardless most of that was pretty irrelevant. Its even more irrelevant because judging by your posts you didnt read what i was even responding to, which my point in a nutshell "there is no point in a tier above ubers because its a ban list and its pointless it being balanced". That was it and nothing more.
2. Ubers primary function IS a ban list (i.e it doesnt need balance see: my previous post). Just as BL is to UU. The only difference is BL doesnt have a metagame. Everything else is usage based. :/
3.
Quote:

You are also better off linking to Smogon if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about.
Ah an unneeded dig. Regardless im pretty sure i know what im talking about considering, i dont know, ive been to #1 in basically every relevant tier on smogon this gen and last?

Aeroblast September 12th, 2013 7:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7830089)
In the Gen VI metagame, I can see Dragons like Garchomp and Haxorus running Iron Head/Tail just to get past Fairies. In Ubers, Dialga can do the same with Iron Tail or Flash Cannon; it never even used its Steel STAB ever.

Iron Head will be very useful on Pokemon who can use it. On Pokemon like Salamence, however, Iron tail will probably be the Steel-type equivalent of Stone Edge/Focus Blast unless they get a new Steel-type move to use.

wolf September 12th, 2013 7:38 PM

Can we please drop this whole unneeded argument about Ubers? Ubers, BL, BL2, and BL3 are all tiers whose main function is to act as a ban list for the tiers below them. Ubers is only a playable metagame because it has enough Pokemon to be one. There isn't going to be a tier above Ubers because Ubers is meant to be "a 'free-for-all metagame with no restrictions on which Pokemon may participate." The only rules in Ubers are clauses, and even then, they have been trying to remove them as of late.

Livewire September 12th, 2013 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran777 (Post 7829918)
Yeah, unless Pyroar has an awful stat spread or a terrible movepool it will definitely be common. Its the only Pokemon to resist Fairy and Ghost, and it comes with Unnerve support. Anything that relies on the common Chople, Occa, Yache, Shuca, Haban, Chesto, Sitrus & Lum berries will get roasted.

It seems like they really wanted to nerf Dragon and Fighting, and probably did it too harshly. Dark seems to have been thrown in with them, for some reason, which is pretty lame.

Also, does this mean Metagross OHKOs itself with Foul Play? Lol

If I had to guess, I bet its stat spread will be preeeeettty similar to Luxray's. Average to poor defenses, Good attacking stats, middle-of-the-road speed, probably decent HP. I am skeptical about the movepool - Aside from what move it gets, I think a lot rides on whether its moves are primarily physical or special. If it gets screwed over in that department, it'll basically be a Gen VI Flareon.

The other big thing will be that Heatran has now basically become the God of X&Y with a 4x Fairy resistance. (Both Steel & Fire resist it, with steel being SE to Fairy) It can maul Steel, Fairies and Dragons, and is immune to the hopefully pumped up Poison type. Ground weakness is still an issue, but a balloon takes care of that, and Fighting is weak to fairy, so expect it to have great team synergy with Fairies, maybe a bulky Azumarill or a yet-to-be-named one.

Xander Olivieri September 12th, 2013 7:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7830444)
unneeded dig/10

Anyway, a few things

1. I linked there because it explained tiers? It would have been the same if i linked to smogon, which ill do now ive found the link.http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_tiers Oh look it says the same thing as bulba, regardless most of that was pretty irrelevant. Its even more irrelevant because judging by your posts you didnt read what i was even responding to, which my point in a nutshell "there is no point in a tier above ubers because its a ban list and its pointless it being balanced". That was it and nothing more.
2. Ubers primary function IS a ban list. Just as BL is to UU. The only difference is BL doesnt have a metagame. Everything else is usage based. :/
3. Once again an unneeded dig. Regardless im pretty sure i know what im talking about considering, i dont know, ive been to #1 in basically every relevant tier on smogon this gen and last?

You obviously know nothing about it then. No its not just a ban list. If it were just a ban list then you could not use anything on that list. Learn to actually read what is in front of you instead of trying to correct other people when you cannot even post correct information.

Uber is its own Tier. It has nothing higher than it because it is an "Anything Goes" tier. It still has its own set of rules that must be followed just like every other tier. As the tiers go downward the rules get stricter.

The entire CONCEPT OF A TIER LIST IS TO BAN. The tiers themselves however are not just ban lists. They are their own entities of separate specified fields of play.

Your entire response is unneeded and full of misinformation.

So, take your three points which are as meaningless as your attempt to correct others and keep it to yourself. Ubers are their own tier whether you want to admit it. They are their own form of play. Its an open form of play and is NOT primarily a Ban List. If it is, then the primary function to every Tier is to be a Ban list as you cannot use Pokemon within upper tiers in lower tiers. Ubers themselves can move off of the Uber Tier just like any other Pokemon can move in and out of their own respective tier lists with proper usage.

And if memory serves, there were two Pokemon currently in the Uber lists that, for a time were Banned from even that tier for use.

One point on a Pokemon from the Yber list dropping: Wobbuffett. It has been Uber since Gen 3 and dropped to BL in Gen 5. If it were simply a Ban list why would a Pokemon that for 2 Generations be on the top list then suddently drop back down? It wasn't used nearly as much is one answer. Its still an OP nuisance. Its counters haven't changed all to much, there are a few extra ways to bypass its ability, but its still as capable as it has been since its days as an Uber.

With Fairy type, Garchomp may fall out of Uber. Its still an insane powerhouse that can sweep through a team, but it may not see as much use unless its Mega Form provides so much of a boost that its the main reason to keep Garchomp in Uber.

All the lists change. Uber is no exception to this and still falls under use because the ones in there are insanely strong. All Tiers also present a specific Power gauge. Which is why they are banned from competing below their set tiers. Pokemon in RU are considered to be more powerful and cause an unfair gap in NU teams, therefore they are banned from use in NU. And yes that is written in Smogon in each explanation of the tiers. Each tier on the way down is weaker than the one above.

This makes each tier its own separate entity. OU consists of everything below it, with the actual OU list being the top of what is considered to be OU Standards. UU is the very top of what is considered UU Standard. Everything in OU is considered too powerful to compete in UU and therefore they are banned from use in UU styled play.

THAT is what the tier list is. It itself is a Ban list to keep upper tiers from being used in the lower tiers, but the Tiers themselves are styles of gameplay used in the competitive metagame. Uber is a competitive style that is equivalent to a Battle Royal where no one is barred entry regardless of power. It is the strongest Tier and like all tiers it will cycle in and out. The Pokemon used in Uber are eventually going to fall from grace due to system or content shifts like the current changes.

Mawile has potential to make it all the way up to UU with her new found typing, Ability, Mega Form, and possible Move set change. Azumarill has the ability to make it into OU thanks to her type change alone seeing as she already has a powerful ability.

Charizard has a chance to move out of NU and up to UU in Drought teams, and Venusaur can move up from OU if the people that use him can find him a decent move set to go with his new found resistance to two of his weaknesses cutting the number of attacks to be used against him in half. Venusaur is already an OU Pokemon thanks to the B/W update to it and it still has potential to move further up.

If Blissey becomes a Fairy Type she can be moved into Uber as her only weaknesses are Steel and Poison, both of which aren't even close to common in Uber and she tanks everything in it. The only thing Blissey has to fear in Uber is Dialga, Genesect and Excadrill. Two of which she also resists the other half or is immune to. She's immune to almost all of the current Uber list. Blaziken is really the only thing not threatened by her as he resists her Fairy attacks but at the same time he only does normal damage to her.

Blissey most certainly isn't a Pokemon that should be "Banned" as she's just a giant wall used to stall. If she gains Fairy type like a majority of us anticipate I see her moving into Uber mostly because of how much use she is going to get. The more use you have the more chances are you'll end up in the top most tier. She'd also be considered too useful to have in OU. But that doesn't say that a Poison Type Pokemon from UU cannot kill her as fast as anything in an upper tier. That Pokemon in UU just isn't shown to be used as much or for as much as a Blissey. Blissey's potential is just greater even though she'd have more counters the further down the list she'd go.

So once more, The Tier List Concept is to establish an effective ban list to balance out the gameplay for specific sets of Pokemon. The actual Tiers themselves are by no means a Ban List. They are different styles of play reflecting the current meta usage of the generation. Pokemon in Uber today may be OU tomorrow. Pokemon in NU today may shoot to Uber tomorrow due to even a few changes.

Metagross is going to drop out of OU now that he has 2 Common Weaknesses added to him.

Bronzong may drop down to NU or even the newer Tier PU as his useage may dwindle down to practically nothing since his stats aren't as good as Metagross even though based on which ever ability it has it has 3 weaknesses compared to Metagross' 4.

Jirachi may or may not drop out of OU. Eventhough both Jirachi and Metagross have the same Base Stat Total of 600, Metagross isn't as evenly balanced as Jirachi is and Jirachi's Serene Grace is a much better ability to utilize offensively. With some Poison Type attacks or even Poison Type Pokemon making a potential move forward in usage, Jirachi is an appropriate counter to nullify a Poison Attack and then deal some heavy status damage to them. 60% Flinch from STAB'd Iron Head has its benefits that not being able to drop stats doesn't.

Even still it could pull a 180 on my prediction and the opposite happen in favor of Metagross' ability to nullify Stat reducing attacks.

The tier list is going to change this coming generation. What was in each individual tier has a chance to move to either an upper or lower Tier. This includes Ubers.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolflare (Post 7830498)
Can we please drop this whole unneeded argument about Ubers? Ubers, BL, BL2, and BL3 are all tiers whose main function is to act as a ban list for the tiers below them. Ubers is only a playable metagame because it has enough Pokemon to be one. There isn't going to be a tier above Ubers because Ubers is meant to be "a 'free-for-all metagame with no restrictions on which Pokemon may participate." The only rules in Ubers are clauses, and even then, they have been trying to remove them as of late.

Just finished writing my post and your's wasn't there until I finished. Sorry. Still I have a lot of predictions for Fairy related Pokemon added in with support of what I was arguing. Is it ok if my post stays in regards to only keeping the discussion based on my thoughts on possible tier shifts?

SkyRyder September 12th, 2013 10:34 PM

Is anyone else worried that Pokemon Amie will make competitive battling more luck-based? Do you think that Amie's buffs will only affect the single-player game?

The thing is, is that the increase in critical hit ratio and evasion can seriously turn the, what I believe is currently a 90:10 skill:luck ratio metagame into a more lopsided ratio. Sure the chance to have that "Sturdy" effect and being able to heal paralysis might seem nice and all, but it seems to be based around RNG, which is personally my least favorable part of battling, but is obviously required to balance some things out.

Keiran September 13th, 2013 6:28 AM

Some other changes announced;

-Ghost types can no longer be trapped.
-Grass types are immune to moves like SleepPowder and Stun Spore. I assume this also includes other plant tomfoolery like Spore.
-Electric types can no longer be paralyzed.

What do you all think of this? Personally, I think the immunity to Paralyze is rather nice.

KorpiklaaniVodka September 13th, 2013 7:08 AM

The "Ghost-types can no longer be trapped" doesn't really mean much since ghost-type beat Wobbuffet and Gothitelle anyway.

Electric-types immune to paralyzing? What the hell?

Xander Olivieri September 13th, 2013 8:10 AM

I don't get why Paralysis is associated with Electric types now. If they are immune then so should Ground types since Paralysis is supposed to be related to Electrc types and Ground is immune to Electric type attacks. This is how Steel types are treated in relation to Poison attacks and status. Seems only fair that they should get the same treatment.

Status blocking now seems to be a huge focus and IMO fairly broken. Grass types are now immune to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Spore, and possibly Poison Powder (unless they leave it to the Grass Typed powder attacks). The info does say that grass types were immune to moves like Sleep Powder and Spore is like Sleep Powder so this is an educated assumption.

Competative wise, some Pokemon lose part of their main defense as they can easily be blocked by switching into a Grass Type.

As for Ghosts switching, it says moves, and didn't say anything about the ability Shadow Tag so anything with Mean Look won't be able to use it against ghosts...which would be a pain in the butt if you have a roamer that happens to be ghost type this generation.

Livewire September 13th, 2013 8:48 AM

I think the electric type being immune to paralysis makes perfect sense, actually. Paralysis is basically being bound by electric/synaptic charges, so basically, a Pokemon that can manipulate electrical energy should theoretically be able to control and effectively negate is effects.

Not all paralysis moves are Electric, though. Theoretically, Body Slam shouldn't be able to paralyze an electric type either. But that still means ground types can be paralyzed.

Opposite Day September 13th, 2013 11:24 AM

Giving Grass-types a boost just means that Poison got a bit better. Again :>

MEGA NIDOKING SMASH

Dark Azelf September 13th, 2013 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolflare (Post 7830498)
Can we please drop this whole unneeded argument about Ubers? Ubers, BL, BL2, and BL3 are all tiers whose main function is to act as a ban list for the tiers below them. Ubers is only a playable metagame because it has enough Pokemon to be one. There isn't going to be a tier above Ubers because Ubers is meant to be "a 'free-for-all metagame with no restrictions on which Pokemon may participate." The only rules in Ubers are clauses, and even then, they have been trying to remove them as of late.

Hallelujah thankyou someone knows how tiers actually work. http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/im-not-always-right-ecard-240x180.jpg


Anyway,

Quote:

-Ghost types can no longer be trapped.
-Grass types are immune to moves like SleepPowder and Stun Spore. I assume this also includes other plant tomfoolery like Spore.
-Electric types can no longer be paralyzed.
I kind of like these changes, it will definitely make switching into things and status absorbing a whole lot easier which in my eyes is a plus, Rest Talking now sucks because of the sleep timer reset and sleep is essentially a free kill now. On the flip side stuff like Breloom will take a hit however, BUT they also gain a sleep immunity which is pretty awesome. Id say thats worth the trade off tbh. Same with electric types.

Can no longer be trapped ? Does that extend to Pursuit (as it is technically a trapping move) also or is it like Mean Look and abilities etc ?

Keiran September 13th, 2013 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7831427)

Can no longer be trapped ? Does that extend to Pursuit (as it is technically a trapping move) also or is it like Mean Look and abilities etc ?

Probably not. Bulbapedia says "effects that prevent fleeing" which includes all of Mean Look, Block, Spider Web, Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull (yay for Honedge) and Arena Trap. Serebii just says moves, so its not really certain I guess.

Nolafus September 13th, 2013 8:38 PM

Yay! Grass types now have a major thing going for them! This will go a long way for dealing with opposing Breloom.

Quote:

Rest Talking now sucks because of the sleep timer reset and sleep is essentially a free kill now.
Are the sleep mechanics being re-done? Sorry, but I'm terrible at finding this stuff out, I just can't seem to find the right site for learning new things.

Xander Olivieri September 13th, 2013 9:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7831427)
Hallelujah thankyou someone knows how tiers actually work. http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/im-not-always-right-ecard-240x180.jpg

He just said the same thing I had been saying, that its not a ban list like you've been saying that it's all it is. Really read a post for once. Also...very mature picture you put there. You look so mature with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7831427)
I kind of like these changes, it will definitely make switching into things and status absorbing a whole lot easier which in my eyes is a plus, Rest Talking now sucks because of the sleep timer reset and sleep is essentially a free kill now. On the flip side stuff like Breloom will take a hit however, BUT they also gain a sleep immunity which is pretty awesome. Id say thats worth the trade off tbh. Same with electric types.

Can no longer be trapped ? Does that extend to Pursuit (as it is technically a trapping move) also or is it like Mean Look and abilities etc ?

I think Breloom can gain more than lose in this case as it won't have to be as focused on sleep inducing and can focus with more offense. Toxic Orb already makes him mean, his new found immunities make him even more of a nightmare and he can free up a slot depending on if you want to continue with the current format or discover a new one.

Though with Fairy making its Debute...I guess he'll see a bit less use outside of the Spore build. It'll have to be played by ear until people actually get the gen 6 metagame flowing. Here's to hoping for a Mega Breloom for its fans.

As for trapping, its moves that keep a Pokemon from running away such as Mean Look or Block. Rumors are suggesting Partial trapping moves such as Sandtomb and Fire Spin as well as trapping abilities. Officially its only saying moves though.

Only moves that "Prevent a Pokemon from Fleeing from battle" are those that are like Block and Mean Look.


Looking up what they say officially:
(just going to use B/W/B2/W2)
Quote:

Mean Look: The user pins the target with a dark, arresting look. The target becomes unable to flee.

Block: The user blocks the target's way with arms spread wide to prevent escape.

Spider Web: The user ensnares the target with thin, gooey silk so it can't flee from battle.
Quote:

Fire Spin: The target becomes trapped within a fierce vortex of fire that rages for four to five turns.

Clamp: The target is clamped and squeezed by the user's very thick and sturdy shell for four to five turns.

Sand Tomb: The user traps the target inside a harshly raging sandstorm for four to five turns.

Whirlpool: Traps foes in a violent swirling whirlpool for four to five turns.

Bind: Things such as long bodies or tentacles are used to bind and squeeze the target for four to five turns

Magma Storm: The target becomes trapped within a maelstrom of fire that rages for four to five turns.

Wrap: A long body or vines are used to wrap and squeeze the target for four to five turns.
The first set of quotes say "Prevents escape", while majority of the second all say "traps". If its Gamefreak..I think its a safe bet that just the first one is the effected party while the second set is still going to work the way they are supposed to...because its gamefreak and they love to troll us.


As for the Powder thing...I think its just going to be Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Poison Powder (the three original "Powder" moves) and Spore. Rage Powder they may be immune to but all that does is force you to attack the user of the move so I can't see it bypassing Rage Powder and not Follow Me. Also don't see them making Grass types immune to an Ice or Bug attack that deals damage because of the namesake.

(the powder thing was brought up somewhere else. Just wanted to move that to here as well.)



Quote:

Originally Posted by Slayr231 (Post 7831955)
Yay! Grass types now have a major thing going for them! This will go a long way for dealing with opposing Breloom.

Are the sleep mechanics being re-done? Sorry, but I'm terrible at finding this stuff out, I just can't seem to find the right site for learning new things.

The sleep thing he's talking about is basically, instead of leaving off where the counter was while the Pokemon was out, like say you had a sleeping Pokemon out for 2 turns and it didn't wake and switched it out on that turn, then when it came back out its counter for awakening is reset back to 1. So you have to attempt to go through 3 turns to awaken again.

Nolafus September 13th, 2013 10:18 PM

Quote:

The sleep thing he's talking about is basically, instead of leaving off where the counter was while the Pokemon was out, like say you had a sleeping Pokemon out for 2 turns and it didn't wake and switched it out on that turn, then when it came back out its counter for awakening is reset back to 1. So you have to attempt to go through 3 turns to awaken again.
Wow, that sucks. Not to mention, kind of negates my strategy for fire teams as I rely on that switch. Oh well, I'll figure something out.

There are a lot of things we're going to have to get used to with this new gen. Luckily, I have all of you to help with that.

Xander Olivieri September 13th, 2013 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slayr231 (Post 7832069)
Wow, that sucks. Not to mention, kind of negates my strategy for fire teams as I rely on that switch. Oh well, I'll figure something out.

There are a lot of things we're going to have to get used to with this new gen. Luckily, I have all of you to help with that.

Everyone is in this boat luckily. We still don't even know how many Fairy types there are, what their stats are like, if they pose enough of a threat to even effect anything other than the low end tiers. The bigger changes came from the rebalancing around the new addition, that's for sure.

What with the 3DS being crack proof so far, not being able to send our Pokemon forward for quite a while...and having to pay to use the storage that allows us to port forward, not being able to RNG, and having to start completely fresh with new competitive environment, you can expect many different tactics being formed and researched.

So many unknown variables in place right now, most of them we won't even discover until we actually play the games.

Altairis September 14th, 2013 9:22 AM

Well a lot of us play on simulators, so I'm sure that not being able to RNG and pay to transfer won't affect the competitive side of Pokemon that much. :3

I just wonder how the "early gen-6" is going to be like. Remember when OU was mostly dream world, and everybody used Rain? I'm also wondering what's going to happen to dragons, because most of them are in the higher tiers anyway. I also hope that we get stronger fairies that are usable for other purposes other than stopping dragons, because then I think it might be a waste. :x

Nolafus September 14th, 2013 9:49 AM

Quote:

I also hope that we get stronger fairies that are usable for other purposes other than stopping dragons, because then I think it might be a waste. :x
There's always Azumaril. That thing packs quite the punch and, in my opinion, is almost certain to go up to OU with its added fairy type. I hope for powerful fairies as well. It will be interesting to see how they stack up.

PlatinumDude September 26th, 2013 11:09 AM

Okay, so Doublade (and assumably any third form it may get) has been revealed to learn Sacred Sword, the signature move of the legendary musketeers. I think it can put that move to good use, considering that Fighting has unresisted coverage with its Ghost STAB and assuming it get decent Attack and Speed:
-Swords Dance
-Shadow Sneak
-Sacred Sword
-Substitute/Will-o-Wisp
Nature: Jolly/Adamant
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Item: Leftovers

I think this will see some use in the lower tiers, since Fire Blast and Earthquake are somewhat widespread in OU.

Hikamaru October 7th, 2013 8:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7850610)
Okay, so Doublade (and assumably any third form it may get) has been revealed to learn Sacred Sword, the signature move of the legendary musketeers. I think it can put that move to good use, considering that Fighting has unresisted coverage with its Ghost STAB and assuming it get decent Attack and Speed:
-Swords Dance
-Shadow Sneak
-Sacred Sword
-Substitute/Will-o-Wisp
Nature: Jolly/Adamant
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Item: Leftovers

I think this will see some use in the lower tiers, since Fire Blast and Earthquake are somewhat widespread in OU.

Yeah, and given the fact we've since seen it have one more, final evolution stage that appears to be able to switch between defensive and offensive roles means the Honedge line will be interesting indeed competitive-wise.

Also, Togepi will be losing its Normal-type for Fairy-type according to some leaked details. This will definitely see some changes on how well Togekiss will do in competitive because this thing now gains a Poison and Steel weakness added on to its existing Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses. I could see it staying in its current tier but the added weaknesses is something to watch out for.

PlatinumDude October 7th, 2013 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikari10 (Post 7869567)
Yeah, and given the fact we've since seen it have one more, final evolution stage that appears to be able to switch between defensive and offensive roles means the Honedge line will be interesting indeed competitive-wise.

Also, Togepi will be losing its Normal-type for Fairy-type according to some leaked details. This will definitely see some changes on how well Togekiss will do in competitive because this thing now gains a Poison and Steel weakness added on to its existing Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses. I could see it staying in its current tier but the added weaknesses is something to watch out for.

In the lower tiers, Doublade would've used Eviolite as the item and Adamant as the nature, given how slow it is. It's been shown to learn Autotomize, so that helps its Speed problem.

In the upper tiers however, Aegislash looks promising because of its ability to switch from a defensive wall to a hard-hitting offensive attacker thanks to its Stance Change ability, which lets it switch to Blade Forme when it uses an attack not named King's Shield (a Protect that sharply lowers the opponent's Attack if the opponent uses a contact move). But then again, 4-moveslot syndrome could be a problem:
-Swords Dance
-King's Shield
-Shadow Sneak
-Sacred Sword/Iron Head
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers

Or Aegislash can use Autotomize + 3 attacks to compensate for its low Speed:
-Autotomize
-Iron Head
-Sacred Sword
-Shadow Sneak
Nature: Impish
EVs: 4 HP/252 Def/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb

I'm assuming that Stance Change acts as Power Trick (which switches the user's base Attack and Defense) when Aegislash attacks, so I'm using Defense EVs rather than Attack EVs.

Keiran October 7th, 2013 10:56 AM

I think Togekiss will see a lot more use actually. Losing the Ghost-immunity and neutrality to Poison and Steel is nothing compared to turning a neutrality to Fighting into x4 resist, gaining a Dragon immunity and more resistance to Dark and Bug. It also handles its new weaknesses well because it has strong Fire-type moves to hit steels and Flying-stab to hit the common Grass/Poison etc.

It will definitely be a huge threat in the upcoming OU and VGC metas imo.

I'm unsure about Aegislash at the moment, honestly. It looks like Deoxys 2.0 with how important predictions are for both players while its on the field.

Hikamaru October 7th, 2013 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran777 (Post 7869837)
I think Togekiss will see a lot more use actually. Losing the Ghost-immunity and neutrality to Poison and Steel is nothing compared to turning a neutrality to Fighting into x4 resist, gaining a Dragon immunity and more resistance to Dark and Bug. It also handles its new weaknesses well because it has strong Fire-type moves to hit steels and Flying-stab to hit the common Grass/Poison etc.

It will definitely be a huge threat in the upcoming OU and VGC metas imo.

Yeah Bug, Fighting and Dragon-types will really have a hard time getting past Togekiss thanks to that new Fairy-typing. The 4x resistances to the former two basically means Togekiss can take quite a few hits from even the strongest Fighting attacks and then retaliate with super-effective Fairy and Flying attacks. It has some good defensive stats going on there.

And not even Scizor will be safe from its Flamethrower that handles the Steel weakness.

Xander Olivieri October 7th, 2013 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikari10 (Post 7870788)
Yeah Bug, Fighting and Dragon-types will really have a hard time getting past Togekiss thanks to that new Fairy-typing. The 4x resistances to the former two basically means Togekiss can take quite a few hits from even the strongest Fighting attacks and then retaliate with super-effective Fairy and Flying attacks. It has some good defensive stats going on there.

And not even Scizor will be safe from its Flamethrower that handles the Steel weakness.

Not completely true. Togekiss is good, but the Psuedo Dragons can still hurt her. I mean they have a lot of power in physical attacks (With one possible exception, Hydreigon). The others can do some brutal damage to her still. Then there are the Bugs that outspeed it like Volcarona and Galvantula who can whittle down on its health or even take it out if done properly. Scizor can probably contend with her using a Technician boosted priority attack like Bullet Punch while holding a boosting item like Life Orb or Steel Gem/Iron Coat. Durant can probably hurt her as well.

Depending on nature and items a Dragonite is the same speed or can be faster than her. Hits hard enough and if has Multiscale can most likely survive a hit. 134 ATK vs 95 DEF. Thats almost enough to one shot is I remember right back when I was doing Hydreigon's damage from Gardevoir's Fairy Wind. It was strong enough to almost KO it and even with double damage, it still would have done a large amount of damage. If the move was stronger like Iron Tail, it has potential.

Salamence is in roughly the same boat as Dragonite. If boosted by a Moxie kill, Togekiss is screwed.

Garchomp has less attack than them, but still just as deadly and has access to some killer rock attacks like Stone Edge. Hydreigon is the worst off of them all, but still outspeeds her and even with 105 Atk he can still do some damage.


The Fairies will be good Dragon checks, but stat wise to majority of them they won't be much of a game changer really. The retyped Pokemon are going to be pushing a majority of the defense in the Meta game renovation, though most still won't be able to take on alternate attacks from the pseudos who are all mostly dragon....This is also, not taking [email protected] into consideration.

Heatran will also like his Fairies extra burnt with a side of mashed XD


Overall I'm not impressed with them. We've got contenders, but I wonder if its enough with what we have so far.

Zero° October 7th, 2013 7:19 PM

Well now that the fairy-type was introduced to and is able to check dragons, I assume there's gonna be an increase of steel- and poison-type moves/pokemon in the gen 6 meta game to check Fairy pokemon. I am really excited about the Gen 6 meta and I can't wait to see how things play out

Altairis October 7th, 2013 7:43 PM

I saw this on the first page, but what if they do increase Ice's usability, do you think maybe Hail will become more popular? Or will it still be subpar because Steel types will increase because of Fairies & Dragons etc.

And I'm kinda scared for what Ubers is going to look like, I mean, Mewtwo just got two Mega Evolutions with boosted states. Things might get booted to uber, but never used because they can't keep up with that D: (I also find it ironic because I read somewhere that they're giving Pokemon Mega Evolutions so they'll be on the same power level as "legendary Pokemon" but all the ones that they've been giving to so far (almost) are already high tier? And Legendaries like Entei suck, I'm sure nothing wants to be on its level, haha)

PlatinumDude October 7th, 2013 8:15 PM

With the introduction of Mega Abomasnow, I'm sure that Hail will become even more viable in OU. Mega Abomasnow has increased offensive stats compared to its original counterpart, but it also has really, really terrible Speed. This is perfect for weather Trick Room teams, and it also guarantees that Mega Abomasnow gets its weather up. Even though the Abomasite takes up its item slot, it can use Leech Seed for recovery and it also has Ice Shard to compensate for its reduced Speed.

Xander Olivieri October 7th, 2013 8:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7870993)
With the introduction of Mega Abomasnow, I'm sure that Hail will become even more viable in OU. Mega Abomasnow has increased offensive stats compared to its original counterpart, but it also has really, really terrible Speed. This is perfect for weather Trick Room teams, and it also guarantees that Mega Abomasnow gets its weather up. Even though the Abomasite takes up its item slot, it can use Leech Seed for recovery and it also has Ice Shard to compensate for its reduced Speed.

Though there is also the rumor that weather abilities are getting nerfed. Its been going around that the weather abilities will only last for 5 turns, just like using the attack so if true, weather teams may not be used as much and the scarce once may become more scarce.

Hikamaru October 7th, 2013 8:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderO (Post 7870908)
Not completely true. Togekiss is good, but the Psuedo Dragons can still hurt her. I mean they have a lot of power in physical attacks (With one possible exception, Hydreigon). The others can do some brutal damage to her still. Then there are the Bugs that outspeed it like Volcarona and Galvantula who can whittle down on its health or even take it out if done properly. Scizor can probably contend with her using a Technician boosted priority attack like Bullet Punch while holding a boosting item like Life Orb or Steel Gem/Iron Coat. Durant can probably hurt her as well.

Depending on nature and items a Dragonite is the same speed or can be faster than her. Hits hard enough and if has Multiscale can most likely survive a hit. 134 ATK vs 95 DEF. Thats almost enough to one shot is I remember right back when I was doing Hydreigon's damage from Gardevoir's Fairy Wind. It was strong enough to almost KO it and even with double damage, it still would have done a large amount of damage. If the move was stronger like Iron Tail, it has potential.

Salamence is in roughly the same boat as Dragonite. If boosted by a Moxie kill, Togekiss is screwed.

Garchomp has less attack than them, but still just as deadly and has access to some killer rock attacks like Stone Edge. Hydreigon is the worst off of them all, but still outspeeds her and even with 105 Atk he can still do some damage.


The Fairies will be good Dragon checks, but stat wise to majority of them they won't be much of a game changer really. The retyped Pokemon are going to be pushing a majority of the defense in the Meta game renovation, though most still won't be able to take on alternate attacks from the pseudos who are all mostly dragon....This is also, not taking [email protected] into consideration.

Heatran will also like his Fairies extra burnt with a side of mashed XD


Overall I'm not impressed with them. We've got contenders, but I wonder if its enough with what we have so far.

I can see where you're going here, Bullet Punch Scizor and also some Dragon-types may still pose a threat as well as Bullet Punch Scizor and some other Steel-types but Togekiss does get Flamethrower to easily get around most Steel-types. I know you have a concern that some Fairy-types may be weak stat-wise but I do know Togekiss is a strong special attacker with some decent stats in everything else as well. Plus she has some great moves that Serene Grace can be abused with. I'm hoping she gets some strong Fairy moves along the way.

But, I'm thinking she may still become more prevalent now that she can easily switch in on Outrages and Draco Meteors easily thanks to the Dragon immunity.

Nolafus October 7th, 2013 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikari10 (Post 7871030)
I can see where you're going here, Bullet Punch Scizor and also some Dragon-types may still pose a threat as well as Bullet Punch Scizor and some other Steel-types but Togekiss does get Flamethrower to easily get around most Steel-types. I know you have a concern that some Fairy-types may be weak stat-wise but I do know Togekiss is a strong special attacker with some decent stats in everything else as well. Plus she has some great moves that Serene Grace can be abused with. I'm hoping she gets some strong Fairy moves along the way.

But, I'm thinking she may still become more prevalent now that she can easily switch in on Outrages and Draco Meteors easily thanks to the Dragon immunity.

My guess is that Outrage is going to see a lot less usage, being switched out for Dragon Claw or something. I mean, while you're busy outraging away, your opponent could be powering up one of their fairy pokemon for the sweep. I just don't see Outrage being used all that much once the new generation kicks in.

I'm seeing the new Fairy types as more of set-up sweepers. They may not have high stats initially, but I'm guessing that they'll have some sweet stat boosting moves. I haven't seen any Fairy types that seem like they would be killers out on the battlefield. I'm talking about the new ones, we all know what Azumarill is capable of.

PlatinumDude October 9th, 2013 1:38 PM

Breaking news: Mega Gengar gets Shadow Tag. How well do you think it can make use of the ability?

Griffinbane October 9th, 2013 1:42 PM

Metagross automatically drops out of OU, there's no escaping for him now. That or it's deemed too powerful with that ability since nothing can get away and gets banned to Ubers. My prediction.

PlatinumDude October 9th, 2013 5:19 PM

Time for another X/Y set I came up with. This time, it's offensive utility Malamar, considering that it's able to learn Superpower; in conjunction with Contrary, it can get dangerous if it hits enough times with the move. It uses Topsy-turvy to screw up setup sweepers. Foul Play and Hypnosis are options in the last slot; the former for a Dark STAB (though it's only effective against high-Attack opponents) and the latter for incapacitating a counter temporarily. Lack of recovery and subpar defensive typing could be a problem, though:
-Topsy-turvy
-Psycho Cut
-Superpower
-Foul Play/(insert some other physical Dark STAB here)/Hypnosis
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Contrary

Nolafus October 9th, 2013 5:25 PM

Where do you guys figure out all this stuff for the new pokemon? I can't seem to find the site.

I definitely could see that set working, if it gets set up that is.

Hikamaru October 9th, 2013 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffinbane (Post 7873932)
Metagross automatically drops out of OU, there's no escaping for him now. That or it's deemed too powerful with that ability since nothing can get away and gets banned to Ubers. My prediction.

I'm betting that the ability will be too powerful, so I'd see it getting banned to Ubers.

And PD, nice Malamar set. It could really take advantage of Contrary with Superpower there given that it'll be raising its Attack and Defense by one stage and can then take advantage of Psycho Cut and Foul Play/some other physical Dark move, plus using Topsy-Turvy to screw set-up users.

Arc October 9th, 2013 6:04 PM

So, apparently at Smogon, one leaker confirmed that weather abilities like Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, etc, now only last 5 turns.

Quote:

I did not read about this in anywhere in this topic, so I will show some facts about weather abilities.
Early in the game (around the 3rth badge) you can obtain some Hipopotas and MegaCharizard, wich means Sandstorm and Drought.

Both of them become active for only five turns.
Just found a Smooth Rock, so I tested the effectiveness of the item. It doubles the weather duration. 10 turns to go.
Even if you bring in an hipopotas, switch out and call it back to battle BEFORE the sandstorm subsides, the five/ten-turn counter does not reset.

I dont have a heat rock nor any Drizzle/Snow Warning pokemon yet.

Weather based teams are definitely are going to take a hit on how they play now, as they have to be ever so more cautious with keeping their weather-ability user alive now. I think we're going to see less weather teams for Gen 6 because of this huge change.

Nolafus October 9th, 2013 6:18 PM

I'm kind of glad that there will be less weather teams (or, at least they'll be harder to keep up) because I've just recently got back into OU and I have yet to face a non-weather team in the five battles I have done. I might be the only weatherless team...

Anyway, I think it will be a good addition. It's about time that the weather abilities stopped being so strong.

Hikamaru October 9th, 2013 6:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage (Post 7874305)
Weather based teams are definitely are going to take a hit on how they play now, as they have to be ever so more cautious with keeping their weather-ability user alive now. I think we're going to see less weather teams for Gen 6 because of this huge change.

Yeah this was definitely something I wanted given how popular Drizzle Politoed was in OU, and this nerf means weather teams will now be harder to use meaning battlers will now have to try to use a backup plan, like use Rain Dance when their Drizzle-induced rain goes out.

I always knew these abilities would be OP so glad to see this change.

Boilurn October 9th, 2013 8:25 PM

I noticed on another thread that some of the 120 BP moves (such as Blizzard and Thunder) are decreased to 110 BP. With the combination of weather abilities lasting only 5 turns this makes these moves fall farther to obscurity. Galvantula won't be happy with the decrease either, as it has a great ability to go with Thunder's accuracy. The Hidden Power is also at a constant 60 BP, which hurts certain special attackers, and makes them walled more easily, especially by dedicated special walls such as Blissey.

With all of this, it's no wonder that some special attackers might have a harder time in XY than in BW, unless they are those who don't utilize any of the above moves.

Nolafus October 9th, 2013 8:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilurn (Post 7874488)
I noticed on another thread that some of the 120 BP moves (such as Blizzard and Thunder) are decreased to 110 BP. With the combination of weather abilities lasting only 5 turns this makes these moves fall farther to obscurity. Galvantula won't be happy with the decrease either, as it has a great ability to go with Thunder's accuracy. The Hidden Power is also at a constant 60 BP, which hurts certain special attackers, and makes them walled more easily, especially by dedicated special walls such as Blissey.

With all of this, it's no wonder that some special attackers might have a harder time in XY than in BW, unless they are those who don't utilize any of the above moves.

With Hidden power's power decreasing, Ludicolo just might have to replace Sceptile after all, because Sceptile really relies in it for the extra coverage.

I wonder why they're decreasing the power, I didn't think the moves were too OP.

Hikamaru October 9th, 2013 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilurn (Post 7874488)
I noticed on another thread that some of the 120 BP moves (such as Blizzard and Thunder) are decreased to 110 BP. With the combination of weather abilities lasting only 5 turns this makes these moves fall farther to obscurity. Galvantula won't be happy with the decrease either, as it has a great ability to go with Thunder's accuracy. The Hidden Power is also at a constant 60 BP, which hurts certain special attackers, and makes them walled more easily, especially by dedicated special walls such as Blissey.

With all of this, it's no wonder that some special attackers might have a harder time in XY than in BW, unless they are those who don't utilize any of the above moves.

Yeah I do have to admit this hit special attackers hard. I still don't get why they'd weaken Blizzard, Thunder, Hurricane etc. but I never saw them being OP. Galvantula still does get near-perfect accuracy thanks to Compound Eyes but yeah the weakened BP may lower its usefulness. Also, the Hidden Power restructuring to make the move always 60 BP really does hurt special attackers with shallow movepools that mainly rely on it for coverage.

If those Blizzard/Thunder/Hurricane/Fire Blast etc are getting weaker, I'd imagine most players would now settle for Ice Beam, Thunderbolt or Flamethrower as the Ice, Electric and Fire attacks of choice.

KorpiklaaniVodka October 10th, 2013 12:43 AM

If Togekiss would be Fairy/Flying it probably won't be OU because of Scizor. If it's true that Fire Blast will only have 110BP, then many Pokemon will start using Flamethrower (Togekiss being one of them), and yes it can be threatening, but Bullet Punch will be an even bigger threat in XY because of Fairy-types being weak to Steel. I assume the Choice Scarf set will probably be the best set Togekiss can run, at least in early XY. ALSO:

252 SpA Togekiss Fire Blast (110BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in rain: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 338-398 (108.68 - 127.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Indeed, Drizzle Politoed exists and standard CB Scizor can take a Fire Blast in rain and then take a crap on Togekiss with Bullet Punch.

Many dragons can also run Iron Head/Tail to destroy Fairy-types, so I still think they will overpower the metagame.


Weavile will probably get higher usage in XY now that it can pursuit trap Jirachi and weakened Metagross and it has means of hitting many steel-types hard with Night Slash or hopefully a stronger Dark STAB. Same goes for Tyranitar. Gengar will also get more usage now that Steel-types no longer resist its powerful Shadow Ball.

Keiran October 10th, 2013 1:34 PM

Thats assuming someone is silly enough to keep a Togekiss in vs. Scizor during rain. If Togekiss' only threats are a small amount of Steel types, and Dragon-types with Steel moves to a lesser extent, that means it will be fairly easy to place on a team.

As far as MegaGengar goes..I'm not sure its worth the MegaStone tbh. Its weaker than normal Gengar with Life Orb and lacks the option of Focus Sash or recovery for Sub/Disable. Regardless, its still fast and powerful, but I don't think it will be as useful for early/mid game trapping that people might expect. Definitely not Ubers material. If Ghosts could be tagged I could definitely see it be extremely common, since it would wreck any hope of spinblocking. I think we could see people having the stone equipped, but only choose it as their mega depending on the opponents team.

Also, pretty neat sidenote- its third eye looks like the Mean Look eye graphic, hence its ability I suppose. Lol

PlatinumDude October 11th, 2013 3:17 PM

Time for another X/Y set I came up with. This time, it's Xerneas:
-Geomancy
-Moonblast
-Thunderbolt/Grass Knot
-Hidden Power (Ground/Fire)/Grass Knot
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Power Herb/Lum Berry

While Geomancy takes 2 turns to execute, this can be worked around somewhat with Power Herb (to get the +2 in Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed immediately once) or Lum Berry (to cure one status Xerneas takes) during the charge turn. It's vulnerable to phazers, though. It's best to use this set mid- to late-game.


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