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-   -   Counter that Pokémon (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=308837)

Jin Of The Gale September 21st, 2013 8:57 PM

Counter that Pokémon
 
The title says it all. I will post a set on this thread and the next person to post has to post a Pokémon set that is a 100% counter to mine. Your set should not only be able to switch in to any of the opposing Pokémon's move, but also be able to KO it. Try to avoid posting sets that have already been posted so that we don't get stuck in a loop where the same five Pokémon sets are posted over and over again.

Ban List:
1. Ubers
2. Unreleased Dream World moves, abilities and items.
3) OHKO (Sheer Cold, Fissure, etc), Self KO (Explosion, Final Gambit, etc) and Evasion boosting moves (Minimise, Double Team).
4) Shedinja

Here's an example of how this works:

Quote:

Originally Posted by User 2
Quote:

Originally Posted by User 1
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SAtk / 144 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Thunder

Krookodile (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit

Krookodile can safely switch into this Jirachi set as it is unaffected by both Thunder and Psychic. It can also KO Jirachi with Earthquake.

The Pokémon should be able to KO it in a one on one situation, so there won't be Stealth Rock or Spikes on the field. Please don't talk about using hax moves or items. The probability of you moving first (Quick Claw), the opponent missing its move (Bright Powder) or flinching your opponent until it dies should not be used as arguments.

I'll start off with my set.

Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

wolf September 22nd, 2013 11:03 AM

These threads are fun.

https://i.minus.com/iUrMkNjJYMSCW.gif
Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician burned Scizor Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 60-71 (18.8 - 22.25%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

GOOD LUCK GETTING THROUGH THE WALLLLL.

Also remember guys:

Definition of a counter: A Pokemon that can switch into the opposing Pokemon with little or no risk, and proceed to threaten a KO. Basically, a counter is the perfect switch-in to a Pokemon.

Dark Azelf September 22nd, 2013 11:26 AM

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx61wuLg1m1qd87hlo1_500.gif

Heatran @ Choice Specs
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
6 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Speed
Trait: Flash Fire
- Overheat
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Dragon Pulse

Cofag cannot do anything to this, possibly giving it a flash fire boost too with Wisp. :P In return its swiftly decimated by Overheat.

PlatinumDude September 22nd, 2013 12:06 PM

Gyarados:
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/130.gif
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Bounce
-Substitute
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 88 HP/248 Atk/4 Def/168 Spe
Item: Leftovers

Gyarados can come in on whatever Heatran throws out, bar Dragon Pulse, and can either threaten it off the bat with Waterfall or set up a Sub as it switches out, then Dragon Dance from there.

runfromafeebas September 22nd, 2013 4:10 PM

Ferrothorn
-Iron Defense
-Iron Head
-Power Whip
-Leech Seed/Poison Jab
Nature: Bold
EVs: 192 HP/252 Def/64 SpD OR SpA
Item: Leftovers/Rocky Helmet

This thing can successfully switch in to any of Gyarados' attacks. Bounce is the only regularly effective attack it has, which would hit the massive defense stat, plus take damage from Iron Barbs and potentially Rocky Helmet. Power Whip would take care of the sub, and if Ferrothorn could get a Leech Seed in, all the better.

Dark Azelf September 22nd, 2013 4:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runfromafeebas (Post 7845053)
Ferrothorn
-Iron Defense
-Iron Head
-Power Whip
-Leech Seed/Poison Jab
Nature: Bold
EVs: 192 HP/252 Def/64 SpD OR SpA
Item: Leftovers/Rocky Helmet

This thing can successfully switch in to any of Gyarados' attacks. Bounce is the only regularly effective attack it has, which would hit the massive defense stat, plus take damage from Iron Barbs and potentially Rocky Helmet. Power Whip would take care of the sub, and if Ferrothorn could get a Leech Seed in, all the better.


[email protected]
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Speed
Modest Nature
Trait: Magnet Pull
- Substitute
- Hidden Power Fire
- Flash Cannon
- Charge Beam

Can switch in with ease and get +6 special attack via charge beam and trapping you and behind sub (so whoever suggests a counter next is p much gonna have to deal with that as its a fact). It then returns the KO with Hidden Power Fire or even resisted hits lol.

Nolafus September 22nd, 2013 6:19 PM

[email protected]
252 hp / 252 SpDef / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
Ability: Storm Drain
Earth Power
Scald
Toxic
Recover

I don't know what pokemon could survive if Magnezone got X4 special attack and was behind a substitute, but I think if there's a pokemon that could do it, it's Gastrodon. Either resisting, or having complete immunity to all of its attacks and dealing super effective damage back. Not to mention the HP recovery.

Keiran September 22nd, 2013 6:30 PM

[email protected] Sash
4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Ability: Technician
-Bullet Seed
-Mach Punch
-Spore
-Stone Edge

Breloom can come in and OHKO Gastrodon with Bullet Seed.

Nolafus September 22nd, 2013 7:50 PM

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Synthesis

Tangrowth can take any attack Breloom can dish out with its incredibly high defense, and then strike back with HP Ice.

PlatinumDude September 22nd, 2013 9:32 PM

Victini:
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/494.gif
-Blue Flare
-Focus Blast
-Glaciate
-Thunderbolt/Thunder
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Expert Belt/Life Orb

Not only does Victini prey on Tangrowth's terrible Special Defense, but it also walls the entirety of its set.

Aeroblast September 22nd, 2013 9:51 PM

Swampert with Leftovers
Adamant Nature
EV: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def (Offensive tank in smogon)

Scald/Waterfall
Earthquake
Ice punch
Stealth rock/Toxic

Takes half damage from Blue flare, no damage from thunderbolt/thunder. Doesn't mind Glaciate as Swampert is already a slow Pokemon. Focus blast is the only possible danger but Swampert should be able to take a hit before countering with Waterfall. Plus Focus blast is as accurate as a blind sniper.

Hiatus September 22nd, 2013 10:53 PM

Celebi w/ Life Orb
Modest nature
60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
~ Leaf Storm
~ Earth Power
~ Thunder Wave
~ Recover

Due to its better-than-average defenses, Celebi can endure tons of attacks. Leaf Storm allows it to take down a variety of OU Pokémon, such as Jellicent, Starmie, Tentacruel, Terrakion, and even Swampert. With Thunder Wave, it's able to cripple up a few of your opponent's strongest Pokémon, such as Scizor, Latios, and Breloom. Recover enables it to keep itself healthy at all times. Finally, with Earth Power, this Pokémon can take down Ninetales, Volcarona, Heatran, and Infernape, who are a few of its major threats.

Opposite Day September 23rd, 2013 5:58 AM

http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/23/73/2373a9_1699219.jpg

Moltres @ Life Orb / Lum Berry if you really fear paralysis that much
Modest 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Ground
- Agility / Roost

252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 78-91 (24.29 - 28.34%) -- possible 4HKO

oh wait SpA drops

-2 252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 39-45 (12.14 - 14.01%) -- possible 8HKO

Fire Blast / Hurricane also says hi regardless of weather.

Dark Azelf September 23rd, 2013 12:59 PM

[email protected] Choice Band
176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Speed
Adamant Nature
Trait: Sandstream
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- SuperPower

Can switch in on Moltres, take nothing from all your attacks. Even HP Ground in SS does barely anything and easily returns the KO with Stone Edge or Pursuit if you switch.

Boilurn September 23rd, 2013 1:19 PM

Gastrodon
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Nature: Calm / Sassy
Ability: Sand Force
~ Earthquake
~ Scald
~ Toxic
~ Recover

Gastrodon resists Tyranitar's Stone Edge, is not weak to its other moves, and can go for the KO with a Sand Force+STAB boosted Earthquake.

PlatinumDude September 23rd, 2013 1:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilurn (Post 7846273)
Gastrodon
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Nature: Calm
Ability: Sand Force
~ Earthquake
~ Scald
~ Toxic
~ Recover

Gastrodon resists Tyranitar's Stone Edge, is not weak to its other moves, and can go for the KO with a Sand Force boosted Earthquake.

Just saying, Calm would weaken Earthquake's power, so Sassy is generally better.

Anyway:
Roserade
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/407.gif
-Spikes/Toxic Spikes
-Giga Drain
-Hidden Power (Fire)/Toxic Spikes
-Rest
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP/120 Def/136 SDef
Item: Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure

Roserade uses its high Special Defense to shrug off Gastrodon's Scalds, though it takes a chunk from Sand Force-boosted EQs. It then threatens Gastrodon with STAB Giga Drain or sets up hazards as it switches out.

Boilurn September 23rd, 2013 1:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7846278)
Just saying, Calm would weaken Earthquake's power, so Sassy is generally better.

Whoops, I totally forgot that Calm weakens Attack. Thanks for spotting that!

Anyway:

Sigilyph
Item: Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Nature: Bold
~ Cosmic Power
~ Stored Power
~ Roost
~ Psycho Shift

Sigilyph's Magic Guard means that it takes no damage from entry hazards. It also resists Giga Drain and has reliable recovery in Roost. It can set up Cosmic Powers and can hit Roserade with a super-effective Stored Power.

Dark Azelf September 23rd, 2013 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilurn (Post 7846273)
Gastrodon
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Nature: Calm / Sassy
Ability: Sand Force
~ Earthquake
~ Scald
~ Toxic
~ Recover

Gastrodon resists Tyranitar's Stone Edge, is not weak to its other moves, and can go for the KO with a Sand Force+STAB boosted Earthquake.

Just sayin but this gets 2hko'd by CB Tars Crunch so cant switch in at all, Gastrodon is a terrible Tyranitar counter. ;x

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilurn (Post 7846295)
Whoops, I totally forgot that Calm weakens Attack. Thanks for spotting that!

Anyway:

Sigilyph
Item: Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Nature: Bold
~ Cosmic Power
~ Stored Power
~ Roost
~ Psycho Shift

Sigilyph's Magic Guard means that it takes no damage from entry hazards. It also resists Giga Drain and has reliable recovery in Roost. It can set up Cosmic Powers and can hit Roserade with a super-effective Stored Power.

[email protected] Leftovers
252 HP / 144 Def / 112 Sp.Def
Calm Nature
Trait: Pressure
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Bark Out / Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp

Sigi cant touch it, it then proceeds to get pressure stalled. Bark Out makes special attacker switch ins lol whilst Wisp cripples physical switch ins.

KorpiklaaniVodka September 23rd, 2013 9:44 PM

http://media.pldh.net/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/485.gif

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Grass
- Toxic / Stealth Rock / Will-o-Wisp

This Heatran completely walls Spiritomb, taking next to nothing from Shadow Ball, laughing at Will-o-Wisp and 2hkoing Tomb with Fire Blast.

Opposite Day September 24th, 2013 7:11 AM

The funny thing is that Spiritomb would actually win versus Heatran barring a crit if it switches into Bark Out, keeping in mind that you are going to get Pressure stalled like nothing else:

-1 Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 112 SpD Tomb: (33.55 - 39.47%)
-2 Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 112 SpD Tomb: (25 - 29.6%)
-3 Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 112 SpD Tomb: (20.06 - 24.01%)

With Leftovers assuming Max damage on all the rolls, Spiritomb is sitting at roughly 26% and is ready to Rest as you fire off your final Fire Blast, and it doesn't have to worry about you absorbing WoW as you have no fire moves to power up. Of course, crits makes everything laughable, but eh.

Anyway, another way of dealing with Heatran:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/fbf5c1d0d083a03cc8bc17827353d122/tumblr_msl1ziBODI1s29bhho1_500.gif

Starmie @ Life Orb
Natural Cure
Timid 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt / Psyshock
- Ice Beam / Recover
- Rapid Spin

Beats Heatran 80% of the time.

wolf September 24th, 2013 11:09 AM

https://i.minus.com/ibvqoV6iO5PN12.gif
Lanturn @ Leftovers
52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 SDef
Modest nature
- Surf
- Charge Beam
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 52 HP / 204 SpD Lanturn: 105-125 (25.99 - 30.94%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Lanturn Charge Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 146-174 (55.93 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yup.

Also, Starmie is a shaky counter to that Heatran, because there's a chance it could get OHKOed by HP Grass after LO recoil and SR damage. Starmie is technically a counter since it forces Heatran out or OHKOes it before fainting due to LO, but it's still not very ideal.

Hiatus September 24th, 2013 3:10 PM

Garchomp w/ Choice Band
Adamant nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Fang
~ Dragon Claw

With Earthquake, Garchomp is able to knock out a variety of fire- and electric-type Pokémon, including Blaziken, Infernape, and Lanturn. Outrage allows it to take out two-three of your opponent's Pokémon in a row. Fire Fang helps it to defeat all ice, steel, bug, and grass-type Pokémon that can usually be found in the OU tier, such as Scizor, Breloom, Metagross, and Abomasnow. And with Dragon Claw, Garchomp is able to stand tall against most other dragon-types. d:

wolf September 24th, 2013 6:08 PM

Garchomp isn't really a counter since if it switches in while Lanturn uses Ice Beam or Sub, then it's toast.

https://i.minus.com/ibfN0woZabAkaT.gif
Bronzong @ Air Balloon
Heatproof
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ice
- Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 95-112 (28.1 - 33.13%) -- 27.64% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 192-228 (53.63 - 63.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

No one said anything about the moveset needing to be good, right???

KorpiklaaniVodka September 24th, 2013 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opposite Day (Post 7847282)
Anyway, another way of dealing with Heatran:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/fbf5c1d0d083a03cc8bc17827353d122/tumblr_msl1ziBODI1s29bhho1_500.gif

Starmie @ Life Orb
Natural Cure
Timid 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt / Psyshock
- Ice Beam / Recover
- Rapid Spin

Beats Heatran 80% of the time.

Starmie can't switch into HP Grass.

Anyway, (lol) that Heatran set I posted against Spiritomb can also counter Bronzong, unless Fire Blast misses.

http://media.pldh.net/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/485.gif

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Grass
- Toxic / Stealth Rock / Will-o-Wisp

Opposite Day September 24th, 2013 10:50 PM

@ Wolf, I guess I could make it a super defensive bulky Starmie, but I couldn't be bothered :x

also finding a bronzong counter this is going to be tough, you want bad movesets, you get them!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltufzffGBX1r1n5pqo1_500.gif

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Regenerator
Impish 104 HP / 252 Def / 152 SpD
- Soak
- Toxic
- Waterfall
- Wish

0 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 55-65 (11.06 - 13.07%)
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 30-35 (6.03 - 7.04%)
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (65 BP) vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 27-32 (5.43 - 6.43%)

IN RETURN:
0 Atk Alomomola Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 45-54 (13.31 - 15.97%)

yeah that is not doing a lot BUT with Soak + Toxic and no reliable recovery on Zong, you're pretty much as useless as they come, whereas Alomomola recovers any damage done to it with Regenerator. And thank goodness for that, since after Soak Waterfall does (6.5 - 7.98%) to Bronzong.




EDIT:




Another way of dealing with Heatran would be posting another Heatran, but that isn't too fun.
FATMENCE IS BACK

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3hb1qmGHx1qd87hlo1_500.gif

Salamence @ Leftovers
Intimidate
Careful 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
- Wish
- Roost
- Dragon Claw / Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 81-96 (20.55 - 24.36%) -- possible 6HKO

Pop that weasel with a Dragon Claw and you've got yourself a
0 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 356-420 (110.21 - 130.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ggggg


also @ Crobat:
252 SpA Heatran Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 174-206 (66.66 - 78.92%)
Or, if you want a ridiculous Heatran-specific Starmie set with 52 EV's in Speed and a Calm nature just to ensure it gets the speed jump over Tran;
252 SpA Heatran Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Starmie: 128-152 (39.62 - 47.05%)
- Starmie can, in fact, switch into that, and heal off most of the damage done with Recover. Fortunately Starmie doesn't have to deal with a 2HKO, as any set is faster than it. So it works 80% of the time, or a bit more frequently than that depending on your STAB of choice.

Dark Azelf September 25th, 2013 5:22 AM

Quote:

A counter is a pokemon that can switch into another pokemon at little or no risk to itself and force the opposing pokemon out.
Just leaving this here because of what people have already said but still.

Also Wish Mence is awesome. :)

Anyways,

[email protected] Orb
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 HP
Adamant Nature
Trait: Thick Fat
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- SuperPower

Comes in, tanks mence with its 110/80 defense and returns the KO.

PlatinumDude September 25th, 2013 7:19 AM

Wash Rotom:
http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/rotom-wash.gif
-Volt Switch
-Hydro Pump
-Will-o-Wisp
-Pain Split
Nature: Modest
EVs: 232 HP/56 SAtk/220 Spe
Item: Leftovers

While Life Orb Superpower stings, Wash Rotom can easily threaten Mamoswine with a burn from Will-o-Wisp or a supereffective Hydro Pump.

wolf September 25th, 2013 3:17 PM

https://i.minus.com/i18dOxvmHdYxH.gif
Vileplume @ Leftovers
Effect Spore
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Aromatherapy
- Sleep Powder

56+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 84-100 (23.72 - 28.24%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 152-182 (50.83 - 60.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Dark Azelf September 25th, 2013 5:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7848734)
Wash Rotom:
http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/rotom-wash.gif
-Volt Switch
-Hydro Pump
-Will-o-Wisp
-Pain Split
Nature: Modest
EVs: 232 HP/56 SAtk/220 Spe
Item: Leftovers

While Life Orb Superpower stings, Wash Rotom can easily threaten Mamoswine with a burn from Will-o-Wisp or a supereffective Hydro Pump.

Lo SuperPower Vs Rotom: 58.9% - 69.6% and then -1 LO SuperPower: 39.5% - 46.5%. The best case scenario you take 98% Min damage over two turns and as thus you cannot switch in. You need bold and def evs to counter Mamoswine.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolflare (Post 7849448)

https://i.minus.com/i18dOxvmHdYxH.gif
Vileplume @ Leftovers
Effect Spore
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Aromatherapy
- Sleep Powder

56+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 84-100 (23.72 - 28.24%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 152-182 (50.83 - 60.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

http://i.imgur.com/3EwWr8Z.gif
[email protected]
168 HP / 220 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
Trait: Insomnia
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Baton Pass

Switches in, Insomnia stops sleep powder and threatens vileplume with STAB Psychic. Hypno can also Baton Pass NP boosts sooooo, if you cant stop it passing technically you haven't countered it. Food for thought. Also Baton Pass escapes Pursuit. ;)

PlatinumDude September 25th, 2013 6:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7849667)
Lo SuperPower Vs Rotom: 58.9% - 69.6% and then -1 LO SuperPower: 39.5% - 46.5%. The best case scenario you take 98% Min damage over two turns and as thus you cannot switch in. You need bold and def evs to counter Mamoswine.

True, but the listed EV spread allows Wash Rotom to outspeed Mamoswine and it can always switch into any of Mamoswine's STABs, especially an Earthquake.

Anyway:
Skuntank
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/435.gif
-Sucker Punch
-Pursuit
-Poison Jab/Crunch
-Taunt
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk/176 SDef/80 Spe
Item: Black Sludge/Dread Plate
Ability: Aftermath

Skuntank outspeeds Hypno and Taunts it before it can set up Nasty Plot + Baton Pass. Once that's done, Skuntank can hit Hypno hard with STAB Pursuit as it dry switches. It also resists Hypno's listed offensive moves.

gimmepie September 26th, 2013 1:21 AM

Torterra @ Leftovers
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/389.png
-Stealth Rock
-Wood Hammer
-Earthquake
-Synthesis

Nature: Adamant
Evs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Spe
Ability: Overgrow

Torterra can easily switch in against Skuntanks physical moves with its bulky defence and good typing before OHKOing it with STAB Earthquake or forcing it to switch out.

Dark Azelf September 26th, 2013 1:46 AM

[email protected] Orb
4 Atk / 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Speed
Naive Nature
Trait: Intimidate
- Brick Break
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Roost

Old school Mixmence. Comes in as Torterra cant do anything to it and cushions hits with Intimidate further backing it up. It then returns the KO with Fire Blast.

gimmepie September 26th, 2013 2:33 AM

Porygon2 @Eviolite
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/233.png

-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Toxic
-Recover

Nature: Calm
Evs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
Ability: Trace

Lowering Salamence's Atk with trace intimidate leaves Porygon2 able to survive even the super-effective Brick Break before taking advantage of it's good SpA and Salamences fairly average Defence to take it out with Ice Beam.

Zeffy September 26th, 2013 2:51 AM

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Trait: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SDef
Calm Nature
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Toxic / HP Fire / T-Wave
- Recover

I think we can all agree that this is probably the only thing that comes closest to countering Mixmence. Draco Meteor fails to 2hko without stealth rock (don't even mention the other two attacks, they're p irrelevant in this case) while Porygon2 can retaliate with a super effective Ice Beam for the ohko.


edit: ffs above poster

Conkeldurr @Leftovers
Trait: Guts
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD
Nature: Brave / Adamant
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punc
- Payback / Ice Punch

uhh yeah this set 3hko's porygon2 with no boost while porygon2 can only 5hko and toxic is going to activate guts so yeah p standard imo

gimmepie September 26th, 2013 3:37 AM

Musharna @Leftovers

Ability: Synchronise
Nature: Bold
Evs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/518.png
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Batton Pass
- Moonlight

Musharna is easily bulky enough to take even STAB hits from Gurdurr once you factor in its resistance to fighting moves and with only 50 base power even payback isn't much of a threat against the slower Musharna that can KO Gurdurr with a super-effective, STAB Psychic that also plays on a terrible SpD.

Opposite Day September 26th, 2013 4:01 AM

Slowbro @ Life Orb
Regenerator
Quiet 232 HP / 24 Def / 252 SpA
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Surf / Ice Beam

.. oh, the irony of not posting this quickly enough.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/e5ed33407ff2ebaa0e8d396241083895/tumblr_mre1djPi3J1r5fhkdo1_500.gif

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Prankster
Bold 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Mean Look
- Roost

Your one attack doesn't do anything.
If you Baton Pass, you Baton Pass Perish Song.
If you switch, something else gets trapped and dies.

ggggg

gimmepie September 26th, 2013 4:14 AM

Archeops @Flying Gem
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/567.png
Ability: Defeatist
Nature: Naive
Evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

- Acrobatics
- Stone Edge
- Earth Power
- Roost

With only Perish Song to worry about it can switch in fairly easily and then out speed Murkrow to deliver a OHKO with Stone Edge.

Zeffy September 26th, 2013 9:31 AM

Alomomola @Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Nature: Bold
- Scald / Surf
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic

Alomomola can stall Archeops all day everyday. Not to mention it can also 3hko with Scald or 2hko with Surf given 4 special attack EVs.

wolf September 26th, 2013 4:32 PM

https://i.minus.com/i98htoTYvu9rk.gif
Roserade @ Life Orb
Natural Cure
24 HP / 252 SAtk / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fire
- Sleep Powder

Roserade has no problems with any status that Alomomola can muster up and cleanly OHKOes it.

gimmepie September 26th, 2013 5:02 PM

Heatran @Chesto Berry
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/485.png
Ability: Flame Body
Nature: Timid
Evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Grass/Hidden Power Ice
- Stealth Rock/Taunt

Heatran can switch into any of Roserade's offensive moves with ease being immune to Poison and having a 4x resistance against grass. It cannot out speed Roserade, leaving it open to take a Sleep Powder, but if it hits Heatran will be woken up by its Chesto Berry and left to OHKO Roserade with Fire Blast if it doesn't switch out.

It should be noted though that this set would normally use an Air Balloon or Leftovers, the Chesto is because I am specifically countering Roserade.

Zeffy September 26th, 2013 5:38 PM

Rotom-W @Leftovers or Choice Scarf/Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 232 HP / 56 SpA / 220 Spe or 248 HP / 28 SpA / 232 SpD or 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest or Timid
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-o-Wisp / T-Wave / HP Ice
- Pain Split / HP Ice

Majestic Rotom-W. Can't quite decide which set to use so I just put it all in. lol
Pretty self explanatory; hpump 2hkos in most cases.

Hiatus September 27th, 2013 3:06 AM

Blissey w/ Leftovers
Natural Cure
4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm nature
~ Aromatherapy
~ Softboiled
~ Seismic Toss
~ Toxic

As soon as Rotom runs into the field and attempts to hit one of its moves, Blissey would immediately be switched in. Due to its massive HP and defenses, Blissey would always be able to endure any attacks that Rotom throws at it. Aromatherapy would be enable it to cure all Pokémon that Rotom has paralyzed, and Softboiled would allow it to recover itself whenever it's in low health.

gimmepie September 27th, 2013 4:05 AM

Espeon @Light Clay
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/196.png
Ability: Magic Bounce
Nature: Timid
Evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psyshock
- Baton Pass

Espeon has nothing to worry about from any damage Blissey might try to inflict, even from toxic due to Magic Bounce. It can then take advantage of Blissey's terrible Def and take it out with STAB Psyshock.

Zeffy September 27th, 2013 4:58 AM

Tyranitar @Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower

If Espeon is stupid enough to stay do something crazy like set up Reflect, it will have a very bad time. Stealth rock support guarantees an ohko with crunch if Reflect is up, otherwise it has around a 90% chance of ohko...which isn't bad unless you are really, really unlucky :p

Opposite Day September 27th, 2013 6:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 7850141)
Archeops @Flying Gem
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/567.png
Ability: Defeatist
Nature: Naive
Evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

- Acrobatics
- Stone Edge
- Earth Power
- Roost

With only Perish Song to worry about it can switch in fairly easily and then out speed Murkrow to deliver a OHKO with Stone Edge.

Prankster gives Substitute priority, so it is not as if you are going to be beating it with that, as Murkrow would just sub until you were forced out yourself. :/ Try something like Icicle Spear Cloyster or Rock Blast Rhyperior / something with Soundproof instead :x


(I'm so happy I get to suggest this)


Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Sand Stream (or Sand Force if you want a boost to your attacks vs TTar)
Impish 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 142-168 (33.8 - 40%) -- 32.15% chance to 3HKO
:>
Hippo EQ vs 180 HP TTar: (56.47 - 67.35%).

In other words, hippo switches in, tanks a hit, slacks off because it is pretty hard to be a hippo in sand, before it proceeds to show Tar how to decorate gardens. Reliable recovery vs nothing, Hippo's got this one.

PlatinumDude September 27th, 2013 6:50 AM

Politoed:
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/186.gif
-Scald
-Protect/Ice Beam/Refresh
-Perish Song/Encore
-Toxic/Hypnosis
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle

Politoed can switch into Hippowdon, change the weather to rain with Drizzle and do whatever it pleases with Hippowdon, including but not limited to: hitting it with a supereffective Scald (potentially burning it in the process), crippling it or the next switch-in with Toxic or Hypnosis (accuracy is shaky on the latter, though) and Encoring Hippowdon into a support move if it somehow stays in.

Nolafus September 27th, 2013 4:21 PM

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest
EV's: 252 SpA, 252 Spd, 4 hp
Giga Drain
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
Rain Dance

Ludicolo can switch into Politoed's Scald or Ice Beam, and thanks to Swift Swim and Life Orb, outspeed, and KO Politoed with Giga Drain. Even if Scald results in a burn, it won't matter thanks to Ludicolo's special attacks, effectively ending Politoed's rein of terror.

Hiatus September 29th, 2013 2:10 AM

Latios w/ Choice Scarf
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid nature
~ Draco Meteor
~ Psyshock
~ Surf
~ Trick

Ludicolo is quite fast under rain due to its Swift Swim ability, but Latios is pretty fast as well. By maximizing its Speed EVs and making it hold a Choice Scarf, Latios will be able to outspeed Ludicolo and land the first move. With Draco Meteor, this Pokémon should be able to knock out an opposing Ludicolo with just one single hit. Draco Meteor does not always have hundred-percent accuracy though, so if you don't want to take the risk, then you may go with Psyshock instead.

Nolafus September 29th, 2013 2:24 PM

Since you are now locked into one move:

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed

Ferrothorn resists every move in your arsenal and can strike back with a powerful gyro ball. Or, Ferrothorn can use leech seed and heal back any damage it does sustain. Either way, Latias is getting KO'd, or it's getting switched out.

Not to be rude, but remember that the pokemon has to have the ability to switch into the other pokemon's attack. Any attack the pokemon has equipped.

PlatinumDude September 29th, 2013 2:56 PM

Chandelure:
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/609.gif
-Fire Blast/Overheat
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power (Fighting)
-Trick/Energy Ball
Nature: Modest
EVs: 120 HP/252 SAtk/8 SDef/128 Spe
Item: Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire

While Chandelure doesn't appreciate having Stealth Rock on the field, it can switch in to any of Ferrothorn's offensive moves and scare it out with Fire Blast/Overheat or cripple it with Trick.

facekeyboarding September 29th, 2013 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7854874)
Chandelure:
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/609.gif
-Fire Blast/Overheat
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power (Fighting)
-Trick/Energy Ball
Nature: Modest
EVs: 120 HP/252 SAtk/8 SDef/128 Spe
Item: Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire

While Chandelure doesn't appreciate having Stealth Rock on the field, it can switch in to any of Ferrothorn's offensive moves and scare it out with Fire Blast/Overheat or cripple it with Trick.

http://sprites.pokecheck.org/i/134.gif
-Surf
-Wish
-Protect/Shadow Ball
-Ice Beam
Nature: Modest
EVs: 248 HP/252 SAtk/8Spe
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb

Vaporeon is a great counter to Chandelure, as it can switch in on almost any move but Energy Ball. Surf provides reliable, high-power damage, wish provides a solid HP fix, Protect gives Vaporeon the gift of being able to wait another turn for its wish to come true/leftovers to kick in. Ice beam is a great counter for any grass types that try to switch in, especially well known grass sweepers like Venasaur or Breloom. This Vaporeon would work well with a substitute set up, as switching into a substitute would greatly assist it in retaining health.

gimmepie September 30th, 2013 2:50 AM

Ferrothorn @Leftovers
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/598.png
Ability: Iron Barbs
Nature: Relaxed
Evs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 Spd (note 0 speed Evs)

-Stealth Rock
-Leech Seed
-Power Whip
-Gyro Ball/Thunder Wave

Ferrothorn can take anything that Vaporeon dishes out. Set up Leech Seed to sap away at Vaporeon's massive HP whilst replenishing its own. Set up Stealth Rock for switches. Or hit it hard with a super-effective STAB Power Whip.

Jin Of The Gale September 30th, 2013 4:07 AM

Houndoom (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 530-629 (150.56 - 178.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 132-156 (45.36 - 53.6%) -- 42.58% chance to 2HKO

gimmepie September 30th, 2013 5:06 AM

Snorlax @Leftovers

Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Adamant
Evs: 252 Atk / 52 Def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/bw/143.png
- Body Slam/Return
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Crunch/Fire Punch

Snorlax can easily switch into Houndoom resisting STAB fire attacks because of Thick Fat and taking minuscule damage from other attacks because of it's huge bulk. It can then OHKO Houndoom with a super-effective Earthquake taking advantage of its poor defences if it doesn't switch out.

Aeroblast September 30th, 2013 5:29 PM

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Adamant Nature, Guts
128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 SpD
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Facade
- Payback

Doesn't care about much of Snorlax's attacks as none of it's super effective and it can just use Drain Punch to hurt Snorlax very badly and heal itself at the same time with Snorlax's huge HP. Getting paralyzed from Body slam isn't a huge issue as Conkeldurr is already very slow and it can use the paralysis to its advantage to get Guts boost, Facade bonus damage, and even better use of Payback (correct me if I'm wrong on the last item in the statement)

Dark Azelf September 30th, 2013 6:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perdition Haze (Post 7854095)
Latios w/ Choice Scarf
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid nature
~ Draco Meteor
~ Psyshock
~ Surf
~ Trick

Ludicolo is quite fast under rain due to its Swift Swim ability, but Latios is pretty fast as well. By maximizing its Speed EVs and making it hold a Choice Scarf, Latios will be able to outspeed Ludicolo and land the first move. With Draco Meteor, this Pokémon should be able to knock out an opposing Ludicolo with just one single hit. Draco Meteor does not always have hundred-percent accuracy though, so if you don't want to take the risk, then you may go with Psyshock instead.

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 204-240 (67.54 - 79.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios is 2hko'd by Ludiocolo's Ice Beam and as thus cannot switch in or return the KO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by facekeyboarding (Post 7854928)
http://sprites.pokecheck.org/i/134.gif
-Surf
-Wish
-Protect/Shadow Ball
-Ice Beam
Nature: Modest
EVs: 248 HP/252 SAtk/8Spe
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb

Vaporeon is a great counter to Chandelure, as it can switch in on almost any move but Energy Ball. Surf provides reliable, high-power damage, wish provides a solid HP fix, Protect gives Vaporeon the gift of being able to wait another turn for its wish to come true/leftovers to kick in. Ice beam is a great counter for any grass types that try to switch in, especially well known grass sweepers like Venasaur or Breloom. This Vaporeon would work well with a substitute set up, as switching into a substitute would greatly assist it in retaining health.

The bolded contradicts itself, Energy Ball 2hko's and so does Shadow Ball.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Several People in this thread

Definition of a counter: A Pokemon that can switch into the opposing Pokemon with little or no risk, and proceed to threaten a KO. Basically, a counter is the perfect switch-in to a Pokemon.

That means, if it cant switch in on the entirety of a foe pokemons moveset, live and then return the ko/force a switch its not a counter.


Anyway @ above post.


Cresselia @ Leftovers
252 Hp / 176 Def / 80 Sp.Atk
Bold Nature
- Moonlight
- Reflect
- Thunderwave
- Psychic

Comes in, lives everything, sets up a Reflect to cushion Payback, then heal with Moonlight and smashes Conk with STAB Psychic or drive it out.

cbd98 September 30th, 2013 7:24 PM

Zoroark @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Speed
Rash Nature
-Sucker Punch
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse
-Taunt

Zoroark, under the disguise of another Pokemon, can trick Cresselia into a Psychic which doesn't effect him. Reflect doesn't stop Dark Pulse from a 2HKO, T-Wave is meh but Zoroark is still fairly speedy and if disguised as a Ground pokemon would not even happen, and Moonlight won't work once he uses Taunt. He can easily set up with Nasty Plot and start tearing holes in the rest of the opponent's team after a few turns of forcing Cresselia to either switch or become set-up bait.

(off topic but did I do this alright? just checking because apparently it's an issue)

Aeroblast September 30th, 2013 8:42 PM

Since Zoroark is virtually impossible to directly counter with its illusion ability, I'll just put a set that can counter it without its illusion.

Lucario @ Life Orb
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Adamant nature
-Close combat
-Ice punch
-ExtremeSpeed
-Swords Dance

Takes 1/4x damage from all of Zoroark's dark type moves and hit back with super effective Close combat.

Jin Of The Gale September 30th, 2013 9:37 PM

Chandelure (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Energy Ball

252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 494-584 (175.17 - 207.09%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 57-68 (21.75 - 25.95%) -- possible 4HKO

KorpiklaaniVodka October 1st, 2013 9:02 AM

Blissey @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature

- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Softboiled
- Seismic Toss / Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 163-193 (25 - 29.6%) -- possible 4HKO

Then Blissey can just use Toxic and spam Softboiled. She also doesn't really care about Flamethrower burns thanks to Natural Cure.

Aeroblast October 1st, 2013 9:13 AM

Scrafty @ Life Orb/Lum berry
Jolly Nature, Shed Skin

-Dragon Dance
-Drain Punch/Hi jump kick
-Crunch
-Ice Punch

Scrafty doesn't fear Chansey's Seismic toss and in return dish out huge damage with Drain punch while healing half as much HP which is huge.

252 Atk Life Orb Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 330-390 (46.87 - 55.39%) -- 74.22% chance to 2HKO with Life Orb
252 Atk Scrafty Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 440-518 (62.5 - 73.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO with Lum berry

Scrafty's Shed skin means Toxic isn't a huge problem, even more so if it carries Lum berry. Scrafty can get free Dragon dance with correct predictions which will make him even harder to stop.

Edit: Ninja'd -.- But I think this still walls it so I'll edit some calculations.
Edit2: I just finished changing my post to accommodate the above post which he deleted for some mysterious reason -.- I'm still keeping this up because same Scrafty still owns Blissey in the 2 posts above.

Dark Azelf October 1st, 2013 9:19 AM

[email protected] Band
6 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Adamant Nature
Trait: Guts
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Stone Edge
- Night Slash

Lives everything whilst resisting both stab moves and returns the KO.

Fading Tree October 1st, 2013 9:38 AM

Keldeo @C. Scarf/Specs
Modest/Timid, Justified

Hydro Pump
Secret Sword
HP Ghost
Surf
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed

Can take down a +1 Scrafty, and can out speed based on natures. With Scrafy not using Zen Headbutt, Scrafty isn't even a threat to Keldeo, unless he gets a crit.
ninja'd
--------------------------
@Heracross
--------------------------
Ambipom @ Life Orb
Adamant, Technician
- Fake Out
- U-Turn
- Aerial Ace
- Shadow Claw
---------------------------
Possibly one of the less conventional sets, Fakeout, for strong damage, U-turn to switch out incase of a switch it, Aerial Ace for fighting types, and S. Claw to counter the predicted chadelure .... Coffagarus would be a problem with this set <_<; as it is heavily reliant on technician

PlatinumDude October 1st, 2013 11:56 AM

Aggron
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/306.gif
-Head Smash
-Heavy Slam
-Earthquake
-Aqua Tail/Fire Punch
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 116 HP/252 Atk/140 Spe
Item: Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head

Since Ambipom isn't using Low Sweep or Low Kick, Aggron can come in safely, resisting any move Ambipom throws at it and threaten it out with Head Smash or Heavy Slam.

Dark Azelf October 1st, 2013 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fading Tree (Post 7857323)
Keldeo @C. Scarf/Specs
Modest/Timid, Justified

Hydro Pump
Secret Sword
HP Ghost
Surf
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed

Can take down a +1 Scrafty, and can out speed based on natures. With Scrafy not using Zen Headbutt, Scrafty isn't even a threat to Keldeo, unless he gets a crit.
ninja'd
--------------------------
@Heracross
--------------------------
Ambipom @ Life Orb
Adamant, Technician
- Fake Out
- U-Turn
- Aerial Ace
- Shadow Claw
---------------------------
Possibly one of the less conventional sets, Fakeout, for strong damage, U-turn to switch out incase of a switch it, Aerial Ace for fighting types, and S. Claw to counter the predicted chadelure ....
Coffagarus would be a problem with this set <_<; as it is heavily reliant on technician

Ambipom as a Heracross COUNTER? Seriously? >____> Good luck switching in, i mean taking 600% from Close Combat isnt that much. ._.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 7857497)
Aggron
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/306.gif
-Head Smash
-Heavy Slam
-Earthquake
-Aqua Tail/Fire Punch
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 116 HP/252 Atk/140 Spe
Item: Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head

Since Ambipom isn't using Low Sweep or Low Kick, Aggron can come in safely, resisting any move Ambipom throws at it and threaten it out with Head Smash or Heavy Slam.

[email protected]
Relaxed Nature
252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Sp.Atk
Trait: Water Absorb
- Circle Throw
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Resists Aggrons whole moveset bar Earthquake which 4hko's most of the time. Scald and Circle throw in return waste Aggron.

Fading Tree October 1st, 2013 1:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7857561)
Ambipom as a Heracross COUNTER? Seriously? >____> Good luck switching in, i mean taking 600% from Close Combat isnt that much. ._.

revenge kill .. unless it was scarfed.

Rotom @ Leftovers
Levitate
~ Thunderbolt
~ Shadow Ball
~ Will-O-Wisp
~ Pain Split
180 HP / 252 Def / 76 Spe

It can burn the Poliwrath (long as it doesn't have a sub), Thunderbolt it, and pain split off damage.

Lazer October 1st, 2013 1:54 PM

Drifblim @ Flame Orb
Trait: Flare Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
Resists Circle Throws, and it's already burned and has a high enough HP to switch into Scalds. Throw a Thunderbolt at it and that Poliwrath should be done.

Post ninja'd, currently editing.

Krookodile (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
It's immune Thunderbolt and resistant to Shadow Ball. Crunch should be able to defeat Rotom backed by a Choice Band and possibly some Moxie boosts.

wolf October 1st, 2013 2:18 PM

Krookodile is not very ideal since it gets severely crippled by burn, but it's good enough.

https://i.minus.com/iSEMNEM6CLoo5.gif
Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Regenerator
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Ice
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed

252+ Atk Choice Band Krookodile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 136-160 (33.66 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 236-278 (71.29 - 83.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Fire Fang 3HKOes, but Giga Drain and Leftovers recovery should be enough to prevent that.

Aeroblast October 1st, 2013 3:36 PM

Darmanitan @ Life Orb
Sheer force, Adamant Nature
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- U-turn

Can take anything Tangrowth throws at it and KO it with STAB flare blitz.

Lazer October 1st, 2013 3:50 PM

Milotic (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail
It can take all of Darmanitan's moves and Scald+Recover until Darmanitan faints.

Dark Azelf October 2nd, 2013 8:22 AM

[email protected] Specs
128 HP / 252 S.Atk / 128 Speed
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Trick

Resists the whole set and can either Volt Switch or Trick it.

Quote:

revenge kill .. unless it was scarfed.
Yeah but this is about countering only. It cant switch in so its not a counter.

Fading Tree October 2nd, 2013 9:28 AM

[email protected]
Storm Drain
252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Calm Nature
~ Toxic
~ Scald
~ Ice Beam
~ Recover

not necessarily a counter, but it defiantly walls Rotom-W. Voltswitch, and hydro pump are ineffective, even if Gastro is burned it can toxic stall the rotom with recover.

wolf October 2nd, 2013 12:09 PM

https://i.minus.com/ir2nu8WR3gTrm.gif
Tentacruel @ Life Orb
Rain Dish
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Bomb
- Ice Beam
- Giga Drain

252 SpA Life Orb Tentacruel Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 276-328 (64.78 - 76.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 34-41 (11.25 - 13.57%) -- 9HKO at best

Yessssssss.

Opposite Day October 2nd, 2013 1:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolflare (Post 7859400)

https://i.minus.com/ir2nu8WR3gTrm.gif
Tentacruel @ Life Orb
Rain Dish
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Bomb
- Ice Beam
- Giga Drain

252 SpA Life Orb Tentacruel Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 276-328 (64.78 - 76.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 34-41 (11.25 - 13.57%) -- 9HKO at best

Yessssssss.


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120622081728/pokemon/images/8/85/Regice_BW.gif
Regice @ Leftovers
Clear Body
248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

252 SpA Life Orb Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 99-118 (27.27 - 32.5%) -- possible 4HKO
252+ SpA Regice Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 162-192 (53.82 - 63.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Who ever said Ice was a horrible defensive typing?

Lazer October 2nd, 2013 1:50 PM

Mamoswine (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Superpower
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake

Mamoswine can take its Ice Beams and resists Thunderbolts. A Superpower should be able to defeat Regice.

Dark Azelf October 3rd, 2013 11:47 AM

[email protected] Berry
252 HP / 216 Def / 40 S.Atk
Bold Nature
Trait: Levitate
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Yeah switches in, CM's Up and whacks around mamoswine. Resists its whole set also bar superpower which it can easily tank.

wolf October 3rd, 2013 11:59 AM

http://i.imgur.com/fGnRxmn.gif
Murkrow @ Eviolite
Prankster
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Bold Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Taunt

+1 40 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 85-100 (26.31 - 30.95%)
+1 40 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Fighting vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 56-67 (17.33 - 20.74%)
+1 40 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Fighting vs. +2 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 43-51 (13.31 - 15.78%)
+1 40 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Fighting vs. +2 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 86-102 (26.62 - 31.57%) (while Roosting)
+6 0 SpA Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 177-208 (52.36 - 61.53%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO

u lose

Dark Azelf October 4th, 2013 7:33 AM

[email protected] Band
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 HP
Adamant Nature
Trait: Justified
- Close Combat
- Extremespeed
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

Noob krow cant Roost or it gets massacred by CC. Also, 4x resists Dark Pulse. :)

Opposite Day October 4th, 2013 3:50 PM

http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/211.gif
Qwilfish @ Leftovers
Intimidate
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Waterfall
- Pain Split
- Thunder Wave / Taunt

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 83-98 (24.85 - 29.34%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

SPIKE SPIKE SPIKE

or, assuming that it switches into Lucario's most powerful move against it, Luke outspeeds it and hits it twice, which means

0 Atk Qwilfish Waterfall vs. -2 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 220-261 (78.01 - 92.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

ouch.

Lazer October 4th, 2013 7:44 PM

Manectric (M) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Static
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Volt Switch
Qwilfish has pretty low special defense, and since it's all invested into defense, a Thunderbolt from Manetric can easily defeat it, and it also receives a boost from Lightningrod when hit by Thunder Wave. Manetric can also out speed Qwilfish.

PlatinumDude October 4th, 2013 8:54 PM

Druddigon
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/621.gif
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Tail
-Earthquake
-Glare
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef
Item: Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin

Druddigon uses its Dragon typing and heavy investment in special bulk to tank every move Manectric has and threatens it with paralysis from Glare, a supereffective Earthquake or the forced switch from Dragon Tail.

KorpiklaaniVodka October 5th, 2013 1:31 AM

http://media.pldh.net/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/645-therian.gif

Landorus-T @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 200 HP / 84 Atk / 224 Def
Adamant Nature

- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Dragon Tail deals very low damage thanks to the Defense EVs and Intimidate ability, and because of its additional Flying type it won't be affected by Spikes, which means each time it gets phazed it only loses 12.5% health provided Stealth Rock is on its field. Meanwhile, Earthquake is a guaranteed 2HKO with 84 Attack EVs.

runfromafeebas October 10th, 2013 2:20 PM

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 0 Speed IVs
Relaxed Nature
Gyro Ball
Stealth Rock
Toxic
HP Ice / Explosion

A standard set, as far as things go (except for maybe HP Ice / Explosion). Earthquake doesn't affect me, Stone Edge does virtually nothing thanks to my huge defense stats, I'm not gonna take massive damage from Stealth Rock, and U-Turn won't do a whole ton either. In return, I can do any number of things - Toxic, set up my own Stealth Rocks, Gyro Ball or HP Ice (probably the logical choice on this set).

Tyrael October 10th, 2013 3:10 PM

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
252 SpA / 4SpD / 252Spe
Flash Fire
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- HP Fighting

Takes nothing at all from any move Bronzong can possibly throw at it, and can OHKO back with Fire Blast.

Jin Of The Gale October 11th, 2013 1:30 AM

Snorlax (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 52 Def / 200 SDef / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Return
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Crunch

252 SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 128-152 (27.76 - 32.97%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Fire Blast: 17.78 - 21.04%

252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 350-412 (133.58 - 157.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO

runfromafeebas October 11th, 2013 10:23 AM

Machamp @ Leftovers / Sitrus Berry
No Guard
Adamant
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Bulk Up
DynamicPunch
Stone Edge
ThunderPunch

Thanks to a huge attack stat for Machamp (especially if you Bulk Up) and a not-so-huge defense stat for Snorlax, Snorlax is gonna get slaughtered.

Without Bulk Up
252+ Atk Machamp DynamicPunch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Snorlax: 474-558 (102.81 - 121.04%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Calcs done without Bulk Up and/or Leftovers / Sitrus Berry
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Return vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Machamp: 279-328 (74.59 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Machamp: 182-215 (48.66 - 57.48%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Machamp: 182-215 (48.66 - 57.48%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Crunch vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Machamp: 73-86 (19.51 - 22.99%) -- possible 6HKO

So, as you can see, Snorlax gets murdered by DynamicPunch from Machamp without Bulk Ups. If you want to Bulk Up once and let Machamp's HP drop, Sitrus Berry (if chosen) activates, bringing Machamp's HP back up (if you don't have a Sitrus Berry, Leftovers still gets some HP back). DynamicPunch, Snorlax is gone and Machamp is at 50% HP and +1 Atk / Def. Simple enough.

PlatinumDude October 11th, 2013 11:39 AM

Golurk:
http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/623.gif
-Earthquake
-Shadow Punch
-Ice Punch
-Drain Punch
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spe
Item: Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist

Golurk is immune to DynamicPunch and ThunderPunch and can take a Stone Edge. Band-boosted Earthquakes will hurt Machamp a lot.

Hiatus October 12th, 2013 2:34 AM

Gyarados w/Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
Adamant nature
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Bounce
~ Earthquake

Gyarados is a lot faster than Golurk, so it would always be the one to strike the first move. Gyarados' defensive stats aren't totally bad, so it should be able to endure an attack or two that the opponent throws at it. The first thing Gyarados would do is use Dragon Dance. This would raise its Attack and Speed stats, and enable it to land stronger attacks. When it's done, it would use Waterfall, which would take out Golurk with a single hit. Thanks to Moxie, this would raise his Attack once more, allowing it to get through any Pokémon that the opponent manages to send out on the field. If you're able to utilize Gyarados the right way, then you'll be winning the match in an instant. (:

Victreebel's Bro October 12th, 2013 1:00 PM

Jolteon
252 sp.atk/4 sp.def/252 spe
Timid nature @Life orb
-Thunder/Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Ice
-Shadow Ball
-Signal Beam

Any electric attack completely destroys Gyarados, and Jolteon is one of the best ways to counter Gyarados. It out speeds Gyarados and can just set off an electric type move with its impressive base 110 special attack stat (most likely Thunder because normally Gyarados is in the rain)

Jin Of The Gale October 14th, 2013 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victreebel's Bro (Post 7878874)
Jolteon
252 sp.atk/4 sp.def/252 spe
Timid nature @Life orb
-Thunder/Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Ice
-Shadow Ball
-Signal Beam

Any electric attack completely destroys Gyarados, and Jolteon is one of the best ways to counter Gyarados. It out speeds Gyarados and can just set off an electric type move with its impressive base 110 special attack stat (most likely Thunder because normally Gyarados is in the rain)

Jolteon gets OHKO'd if it switches into Waterfall or Earthquake. Jolteon is only a check, not a counter. Please read the OP for more details.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perdition Haze (Post 7878249)
Gyarados w/Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
Adamant nature
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Bounce
~ Earthquake

Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Suicune Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 240-284 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dark Azelf October 14th, 2013 11:54 AM

[email protected]
248HP / 92Def / 40SpAtk / 96SpDef / 32Spd
Quiet nature
- Wood Hammer
- Leech Seed
- Blizzard
- Substitute

Hard walls Suicune basically, sets up a sub and can use wood hammer and leech seed to stall it and defeat it, evs outspeeds Blissey.

Aeroblast October 19th, 2013 2:09 PM

Entei @ Choice Band
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- ExtremeSpeed
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power Grass

Jin Of The Gale October 23rd, 2013 12:01 PM

Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 107-127 (26.48 - 31.43%) -- possible 4HKO
HP Grass: 18.31 - 21.78%

0 SpA Suicune Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 236-282 (63.61 - 76.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dark Azelf October 23rd, 2013 4:16 PM

[email protected]
252 hp / 40 Def / 216 Sp.Def
Calm Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Giga Drain
- Scald

Hard walls cune. Giga Drain, Leech Seed and 4x resistance to its STAB move.

Zeffy October 23rd, 2013 7:27 PM

Bouffalant @leftovers
Sap Sipper
156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Head Charge
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

As far as KOing is concerned, the best Ludicolo can do is a 5hko with Scald. If afro thing catches a lucky Grass-type move, a +1 Atk Head Charge is a ohko. Otherwise, it's a 2hko.

Pokedra October 23rd, 2013 7:29 PM

Abomasnow @ Choice Band
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Avalanche / Focus Punch

Can tank anything Ludicolo has (except unlucky Scald burn) and will cleanly OHKO with Wood Hammer after SR.

Edit: Greninjaed

Jin Of The Gale October 23rd, 2013 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 7897990)
Bouffalant @leftovers
Sap Sipper
156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Head Charge
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Gengar can safely switch in to any of Bouffalant's offensive moves and proceed to 3HKO it with Sludge Bomb.

Dark Azelf October 24th, 2013 1:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 7897990)
Bouffalant @leftovers
Sap Sipper
156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Head Charge
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

As far as KOing is concerned, the best Ludicolo can do is a 5hko with Scald. If afro thing catches a lucky Grass-type move, a +1 Atk Head Charge is a ohko. Otherwise, it's a 2hko.

If Scald burns then you lose. ;(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jin Of The Gale (Post 7898024)
Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Gengar can safely switch in to any of Bouffalant's offensive moves and proceed to 3HKO it with Sludge Bomb.

[email protected]
252 Def / 112 Sp.Atk / 52 Sp.Def / 92 Speed
Calm Nature
Trait: Natural Cure
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Flamethrower

Focus Blast: 27.3% - 32.3%

Evs outspeed Scizor.

Jin Of The Gale October 29th, 2013 11:14 PM

Machamp (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Ice Punch
- DynamicPunch
- Stone Edge
- Payback

Zeffy October 30th, 2013 12:50 AM

Slowbro @Choice Specs
Trait: Regenerator OR Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest nature
- Psychic
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam

Own Tempo is good to avoid Dynamic Punch confusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 7898253)
If Scald burns then you lose. ;(

I've completely forgotten about that haha. I suppose the set has 30% fatality rate then


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