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.Gamer December 3rd, 2013 5:16 AM

xy is the most balanced metagame i can think of except for maybe rs. Any playstyle is really viable, you can stall, you can run HO, you can go in the middle, you can use "special" teams (tr, weather) but no one strategy is consistently better than any other. Pokemon are stronger, yeah, but everything is stronger so it's even. Fairy type prevents dragsteel metagames like late DPP and the various buffs and nerfs they gave out really give every type an advantage over another. breloom isn't super good anymore (unfortunately), weather teams aren't dominant like gen 5, dragon types aren't the be all end all of teambuilding. It's a much better metagame than people are giving it credit for.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Mega Kanga, Mega Lucario and Mega Gengar are all 3 very good pokemon, I do not consider them broken though. They are just very good. The only one I would consider even remotely broken is Lucario, because once it SD's you're basically done, but I still don't think it should be banned. OU right now is really good and really fun to play. I think they just banned MegaGengar though so now we start in motion the series of events that slowly ruins the metagame by banning all the pokemon that are really good and watering down OU to some sort of weird perversion of it' former self. it happens every year. I've become very jaded to the suspect testing process, if you can't tell.

Hikamaru December 3rd, 2013 7:12 AM

I definitely think the 6th Gen metagame is one of the most balanced, players don't have to rely on Steel-types to take Dragon attacks now that we have Fairy-types immune to the Dragon attacks. Some Pokemon may not be as useful as they were previously and weather getting nerfed means weather teams won't be running as rampant as they were in 5th Gen.

As for the banning of Mega Gengar to Ubers, it was something I saw coming. Its type combination is really good on both sides of the spectrum, it's quite fast and strong, plus Shadow Tag causes the foe to get trapped (unless if Ghost-type). On top of that, it has quite a diverse movepool that can take out most threats.

TrainerNico December 3rd, 2013 8:40 AM

Username: TrainerNico
Answer to current topic: Well, I think it's balanced, due to the arrival of Fairy-types Dragon-types have been seriously nerfed(Less Outrage maybe?). And I also think it's also because of some of the new Pokemon that has great bulk like Avalugg and Florges it will be more defense oriented.
Experience in competitive battling: 3 Months
Favourite Pokemon(s): Mega Mawile, Florges, Mega Gardevoir, Rapidash, Cinccino
Preferred playstyle/core: Semi-stall

About Gengarite, it's banned by Smogon rules right? Well I knew it was gonna happen despite that I haven't had a single problem with Mega Gengar. Well since it has base 170 SpA + base 130 + Shadow Tag, it can wreck everything even walls will have a hard time.

zygardian harbinger December 3rd, 2013 12:40 PM

Gengar has been banned, huh? Well, it did have a ridiculous amount of Speed, and its Ghost-type moves received a plus with the removal of Steel's resistance to it. I haven't seen it used often enough for it to make much of an impact, however.

Fairy December 3rd, 2013 12:45 PM

Username:

Strawberry
Answer to current topic:
I like to think that the introduction of Fairy types has successfully balanced the metagame, or at the very east halted the power creep. If nothing, it's broadened the available play styles and allowed for a more diverse playing field so we're not limited to heavy tactical offense to actually win. I see strategy prevailing over sheer force, and I like that. :)
Experience in competitive battling:
Just put me down as zero to none. I haven't battled in quite some time and I was best at team building and rating so even in my prime I wasn't battling nonstop or anything.
Favourite Pokemon(s):
Sylveon, Volcarona
Preferred playstyle/core:
Balanced
Extra:
I'm really only joining this because I want to get back into playing. I've been distant for so long, stopped coming to the server, and just generally lost touch with everything I enjoyed about competitive battling. I'm hoping to recapture that by joining this and having some nice, solid discussions about anything and everything competitive.


@MegaGengar, I was just reading about that, actually. While I haven't seen it in use much, I guess I understand why it was banned. It can set up on anything and with Shadow Tag it's virtually unstoppable.


champagnepapi December 3rd, 2013 1:02 PM

xy is already a lot better than bw2 because, while there is centralization, you don't need to use the best ou pokemon to be competitive, which i think was the case in bw2, especially pre lando ban [as evidenced by any ladder battles]. i think that we could have a really fun metagame on our hands once mega kanga, mega lucario and manaphy are banned, to be honest.

Nolafus December 3rd, 2013 1:07 PM

If it's one thing I realized, it's that hyper-offensive won't cut it anymore. I tried to do a few battles today and my team, which had previously gone nearly undefeated at the beginning of gen 6, was now losing almost every battle. Everyone had the capability to take every attack I threw out, and then proceed to counter. Man, looks like my team is in need for some heavy revisions.

Opposite Day December 3rd, 2013 3:37 PM

@Topic:
I'm not too sure about the size of the impact of faeries nor that the balanced state of things was caused by them, as compared to what certain new threats (Talonflame in particular) and the buff to Ghost/Dark did. The fact that things like Kanga can Sucker Punch almost anything with impunity makes it tougher to take down, Gengar wrecks things that would check it in the past with Shadow Ball (Scizor and the steel-buddies), CBTar can Crunch without being worried that Ferrothorn sets up free spikes on it, et cetera. It does have that "new generation" feel still though, where practically anything goes because you are still trying to figure out what works and what not. Seems like this meta is favouring bulky offense a bit more than it has in the past.

I'd be a lot more excited about faeries if it wasn't for the fact that if you for instance want a Fairy-type with a base speed > 100 you are stuck with Whimsicott and Dedenne, heh.

Pokedra December 3rd, 2013 5:27 PM

Username: Pokedra
Answer to current topic: Nintendo surprised me, they had a massive turd on their hands (BW2) and they managed to make it playable again. Greater balance between offensive and defensive threats, weather nerf, Assault Vest, excellent new additions and the special nukes nerf were all greatly needed. Now you can't use Keldeo in the rain and OHKO with Blissey with Hyper Beam. So yeah X/Y is not perfect and probably not as good as DPPt OU but it finds a decent balance, allows some creativity and is much better than the crap that came before.
Experience in competitive battling: Gen IV-VI, got to #1 on BW2 UU, #25~ on DPPt OU.
Favourite Pokemon(s): Kingdra, Salamence, Heracross, Mespirit, Grovyle
Preferred playstyle/core: Bulky offense

dreyko December 4th, 2013 6:13 PM

Gengarite being banned was probably the right move, as it could get really out of hand quickly.

Thinking more about the balance of this generations metagame, i feel pretty good towards it. Meaning i feel that multiple strategies will be more viable than they were in BW/BW2. I am very excited to see how stall as a strategy will progress/function in this meta.

I still feel that it is a little soon to predict how things will turn out, but then again you can never be 100% sure.

Ársa December 4th, 2013 6:45 PM

The funny thing is, this all came about with people largely using Mega Gengar outside of what it's really good at. Played properly alongside a strong physical threat, it can open up holes to exploit. IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.

Also, from seeing what Pokedra has said, I'm a little glad I stopped playing through Platinum. BW/BW2 sounds like it was a major fusterkluck to me.

halcyonic December 4th, 2013 8:27 PM

Quote:

IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.
rofl

and welcome to the club, trainernico, alexial and pokie :] ugh i felt sooo lazy to add you guys :x

Pokedra December 4th, 2013 9:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ársa (Post 7970626)
The funny thing is, this all came about with people largely using Mega Gengar outside of what it's really good at. Played properly alongside a strong physical threat, it can open up holes to exploit. IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.

Also, from seeing what Pokedra has said, I'm a little glad I stopped playing through Platinum. BW/BW2 sounds like it was a major fusterkluck to me.

BW2 was a metagame for the kiddies to show off who could nuke the other team better. It's no surprise most of the top battlers moved to different tiers where balance could actually be found (UU/RU/NU/even Ubers was better rofl). I mean sure it's cool seeing "It's not very effective! Skarmory lost 100% of it's health" but it gets old rather quickly.

Anyways, the Mega Gengar ban indeed felt like a kneejerk reaction. It's deadly but lack of power and a turn needed to MEvo prevents it crossing the line I feel. I think some people just don't want to deal with it at all hence the ban.

TrainerNico December 5th, 2013 4:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 7970998)
Anyways, the Mega Gengar ban indeed felt like a kneejerk reaction. It's deadly but lack of power and a turn needed to MEvo prevents it crossing the line I feel. I think some people just don't want to deal with it at all hence the ban.

IKR, actually fast Pokemon like Greninja and Jolteon can outspeed Mega Gengar(provided that Gengar has a Modest nature) and if Gengar has a speed boosting Nature, he will outspeed the Pokemon mentioned above but will lack some power, so the two Pokemon could take a hit before retaliating back. That's what I learned as of now, but the Perish trapping set looks deadly TBH.

champagnepapi December 5th, 2013 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ársa (Post 7970626)
The funny thing is, this all came about with people largely using Mega Gengar outside of what it's really good at. Played properly alongside a strong physical threat, it can open up holes to exploit. IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.

Also, from seeing what Pokedra has said, I'm a little glad I stopped playing through Platinum. BW/BW2 sounds like it was a major fusterkluck to me.

that's the exact reason they banned it

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-gengarite.3494085/

Ooka December 5th, 2013 2:51 PM

No one really had a problem when Chandelure was banned iirc, so I don't understand why a stronger, faster, better typed version of it is so upsetting. Sure it has to mega evolve, so? With it's power and already high speed, it shouldn't have any trouble picking something off.

Pokedra December 5th, 2013 3:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka (Post 7972269)
No one really had a problem when Chandelure was banned iirc, so I don't understand why a stronger, faster, better typed version of it is so upsetting. Sure it has to mega evolve, so? With it's power and already high speed, it shouldn't have any trouble picking something off.

Mega Gengar is not more powerful. Unlike Chandelure it doesn't have higher powered STAB moves to abuse so Lure actually comes off stronger in most cases. Plus Lure can equip itself with LO or Specs, even Scarf if you want more speed. He is faster then Lure but he was banned because he can trap walls, walls are something even Chandelure can outspeed and he packs more of a punch. Gengar-M fails to kill more times then it should. And that turn to MEvo gives your opponent a chance to figure out which Pokemon you want to trap, the loss of Levitate is also significant.

So yeah
- Loss of Levitate / less switching in opportunities
- MEvo turn
- Lack of power

It's brilliant but it's not broken, most of the good players will be able to handle it. The majority just don't want to deal with it.

Nolafus December 5th, 2013 3:39 PM

I have to agree with Smogon with this one. It's not capable of sweeping, but it does get rid of counters very well. Once it mega-evolves, it will have Shadow Tag on the switch-in. There's not much you can do then. If the right player got it, it would be nearly unstoppable. Just trap your sweeper's counter, and you just won the game.

Pokedra December 5th, 2013 3:47 PM

To be honest, if you have one counter to a Pokemon that can otherwise sweep your entire team then you deserve to lose. A well-built team needs to address all threats. Not just with a counter but a check (revenge-killer, phazer) and even good-play. The problem with M-Gengar is that he'll have to MEvo before he can trap, it then falls on you to play well so you don't get trapped.

wolf December 5th, 2013 4:02 PM

Well, Mega Gengar is noticeably more powerful than Scarf Chandelure, and doesn't have to worry about staying in while locked into one move. (Though, Chandelure has stronger secondary STAB moves.)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 408-480 (156.3 - 183.9%)
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 360-426 (137.9 - 163.2%)

Still, Mega Gengar can switch in frequently and trap more Pokemon without worrying about a SR weakness. It also has better typing and a better movepool (Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Perish Song, etc.). Not to mention it can successfully trap more than half of the metagame. Also, it's a bit ridiculous to say that Mega Gengar lacks power. Of course it can't KO everything easily without super effective moves; it has to pick off threats.

Disclaimer: I personally haven't battled against Mega Gengar, but it seems pretty darn broken on paper. Shadow Tag alone is downright uncompetitive anyway.

Ársa December 5th, 2013 5:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antebellum (Post 7972029)

Yes, I read that when it was released. As I said, I think it's more of a knee jerk reaction by Smogon. It certainly isn't overcentralising (it's not in the top 3 most-used Mega's iirc) and there are a plethora of pokemon this Gen that it cannot switch into and beat 1-on-1.

Yes, when I said used effectively alongside a pokemon that appreciates MeGar taking out its threats, it is a powerful tool. But that can be said about any team with a viable combination. Magnezone could trap and kill all steels that resisted a SD Chomp's sweep. While MeGar does this better, essentially it's the same idea.

Smogon talks about 'access to all these amazing moves'. Have we all of a sudden forgot that pokemon only gets 4 moves? Yes Shadow Tag + Perish song seems OP, but MeGar is frail, and for this to work effectively you need to run a combination of Perish Song + Protect + Sub/Disable + Shadow Ball just to make it work. All of a sudden, MeGar can't hit all these threats (like Mega Kangaskhan, who KO's with EQ now that it no longer has levitate).

champagnepapi December 5th, 2013 5:18 PM

Trapping itself isn't uncompetitive but Magnezone and pursuit are incredibly one dimensional. SD Chomp can get revenge killed if it's against an offensive team, while there's Hippowdon, Gliscor, Quagsire, Tangrowth, Slowbro and more guys to beat it on defense. Magnezone can't trap these Pokemon, but Mega Gengar can. I guess you could make the argument about Gothitelle and it might be better to ban Shadow Tag itself, but Mega Gengar can also get a substitute, and unlike Gothitelle, it's fast as **** and fairly strong. It's not as much of a liability to a team as Gothitelle is, and beats more pokemon, such as Heatran, without having to specialize itself to do so since its moves have fantastic coverage.

Ársa December 5th, 2013 6:09 PM

You make that argument, but again, MeGar and Luke (as example - as they both pair well together) are both easily revenge killed as well. You can't counter one point with an argument that counters your own. Magnezone need not kill Heatran for Chomp, as outside of ScarfTran (which cannot stay in once it has KO'd Maggy) it is outsped and KO'd by Chomp.

MeGar can't handle Hippowdon, Gliscor, or Quagsire either. Also, as I said before, any such moves like Substitute require MeGar to drop coverage, making the pool of pokemon that can take it on that much greater.

.Gamer December 5th, 2013 6:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ársa (Post 7972565)
You make that argument, but again, MeGar and Luke (as example - as they both pair well together) are both easily revenge killed as well. You can't counter one point with an argument that counters your own. Magnezone need not kill Heatran for Chomp, as outside of ScarfTran (which cannot stay in once it has KO'd Maggy) it is outsped and KO'd by Chomp.

MeGar can't handle Hippowdon, Gliscor, or Quagsire either. Also, as I said before, any such moves like Substitute require MeGar to drop coverage, making the pool of pokemon that can take it on that much greater.

how are you going to pair them together when you can only have one megamon per team???

Pokedra December 5th, 2013 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awolffromspace (Post 7972372)
Well, Mega Gengar is noticeably more powerful than Scarf Chandelure, and doesn't have to worry about staying in while locked into one move. (Though, Chandelure has stronger secondary STAB moves.)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 408-480 (156.3 - 183.9%)
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 360-426 (137.9 - 163.2%)

Still, Mega Gengar can switch in frequently and trap more Pokemon without worrying about a SR weakness. It also has better typing and a better movepool (Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Perish Song, etc.). Not to mention it can successfully trap more than half of the metagame. Also, it's a bit ridiculous to say that Mega Gengar lacks power. Of course it can't KO everything easily without super effective moves; it has to pick off threats.

Disclaimer: I personally haven't battled against Mega Gengar, but it seems pretty darn broken on paper. Shadow Tag alone is downright uncompetitive anyway.

The secondary STAB is very important however, their primary role is to get rid of walls so any extra power helps. Also Lure can opt to run LO if it needs, the loss of speed is noticeable but for killing walls it's not necessary. And having used Gengar-M quite a bit, I can tell with certainty, 170 unboosted SpAtk is actually not as good as you might think. It's a bit weaker then LO Gengar, the difference is like 10% but LO Gengar wasn't exactly a powerhouse to being with. Most walls have to be quite weak before you trap and kill them, unless you can hit them for super-effective damage with STAB moves. It can get in without SR but it lacks Levitate and it's pretty measly defenses don't help either. Some walls it is meant to trap can nail him with STAB moves if you try bring him in to trap if they predict correctly. And the biggest problem remains, getting a turn to Mega evolve, something quite important as it's one less switch in which means less hazard damage, less chance of getting trapped yourself or mispredicting and losing your Gengar.

On paper, it's broken. In practice, it's really, really good but has drawbacks and can be dealt with. Once it shows itself you just need to play more cautiously, a well-played Aegislash and Talonflame can be just as good as a well-played Gengar-M.


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