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I understand what you guys are saying, but I think your thinking is slightly skewed. The tiers are mostly determined with how often something is used, barring when something is banned for being too powerful. When you're playing in OU for example, you can use basically anything in OU or lower. You are NOT by any means limited to using only OU Pokemon. I personally love to use Quagsire, I don't care if he was considered NU.
I personally agree with most of Smogon's decisions. Blaziken and Lucario were already really good on their own and did not need the extra power from the mega stones, despite the lack of held item. I find it unfortunate that Kangha's mega made it so broken, as it is almost unplayable without it. The tier system allows people to play Pokemon how they want to play it. Want to have a team full of the strongest legendaries? There's a tier for that. That being said, if you don't like Smogon's tiering, simply don't abide by it when playing in Battle Spot or sanctioned tournaments. But if you want to partake in tournaments through forums and Pokemon Showdown, you will have to abide by their rules, or risk not playing there at all. |
They don't just ban pokemon for the laugh of it from OU.
They ban it because it has such a huge impact on the competitive play aspect of pokemon. If you don't follow bans and so on, then most likely you're a person who plays casually. In that case, go ahead and use any pokemon. But it really isn't enjoyable at all when any pokemon is allowed, it creates an atmosphere of overpowered and predictable pokemon will be used constantly that have an alarming small amount of counters to them. Banning pokemon is needed in order for the metagame to be balanced and enjoyable to a sense, instead of having a complete dominant factor. So in the case for megaevolutions, the ones currently banned simply have too strong abilities/too strong bases. Mega Gengar was ridiculous, it's ability enabled it to switch on anything and keep them trapped and there is NOTHING you can do about that whatsoever. The fact it had a huge special attack/speed base too enabled it to outspeed/kill anything. That's why it got banned. Mega Kani got banned because having 2 sucker punches is a bit... over the top coupled with a sword dance set up. |
What you're asking for, OP, is called Battle Spot.
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Mew two, deoxys, rayquaza, w kyurem, xerneas, yveltal So what then when some guy wants to take his favorite aesthetically pleasing pkmn to battle... he gets wasted and melted through even with his best strategy... |
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lol I was saying that people would be using teams of those pkmn left, righ,t and center if it wasn't for the tier system. I don't even understand how you are trying to reply to it to be honest, no offense. read the post though, I wasn't saying they shoudnt be banned lol EDIT: I think I get what you are saying. You seen the pkmn names and just went ahead and posted instead of replying to the actual content of my post, I was confused at first. As far as M gengar and M kangaskhan. There are ways to make them unstoppable. uhmmm Gliscor for example, he could boost M kangaskhan ridiculously, Switch in gliscor on something he can take two or three hits on sworddance and agility then baton pass to M kangaskhan, get off one power up punch from there and, viola, sweep an entire team, full of any pkmn from any tier pretty much. That's why its banned. It can be set up to be OP. |
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Just curious, have you ever actually played against, say, a mega Blaziken in OU? A Pokemon with not-too-terrible bulk, base 160 attack, two base 120+ STAB moves, fantastic offensive coverage, the inability to get burned, and the ability to get to +1 Speed and +2 attack in one turn in horrifically broken, and doesn't really have an expansive list of counters, does it? +2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Aside from Giratina, who's in Ubers) Slowbro is the only Pokemon I've seen that isn't outright 2HKO'd or even OHKO'd by a +2 High Jump Kick. Are you honestly going to tell me that if I don't want to get swept by a Mega Blaziken, I have to run a max HP max Def Slowbro on every team I make? When it gets to that point, one would believe it fairly obvious that Blaziken deserves a ban. |
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You also raised a point about things that counter evasion abuse. I only have one thing to say to that: no. I mean, sure, you could just use moves that ignore evasion like Swift and Shock Wave, which would eventually lead to a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ metagame. Isn't that exactly the opposite of what you want to achieve? Quote:
The "stagnating metagame" is not exactly the fault of Smogon's tiering system. I hope you are still reading this because, surprise surprise, people play Pokemon. No one is discouraging you to use creative movesets--as long as it works. In fact, some of the known movesets right now were considered creative before--right until people started using them team after team. People people people people people. Do you see what I'm getting at? Quote:
I find it amusing the people keep insisting on dissing Smogon's tiering system. You're entitled to your own opinion, yeah, but at least support your opinions with actions. I have seen a many a people say "screw smogon I play by my own rules *puts on shades*" yet they still battle under Smogon's circumstances or worse (i'm talking about those who don't play competitive Pokemon at all). |
The official standards won't mirror Smogon's standards because the people who run it disagree with the mentality of "this is the only way to use them." That Smogon presents. Smogon has a higher rate of constantly repeating teams than the official tournaments do and a lot of local tournaments give off way better and more unique team formats.
Only things that are banned are event exclusive content, which I believe Soul Dew is event exclusive as well hence the item's ban, and main box art legends. The only time they have ever banned Pokemon and or moves is if they had really bad effects like Chatter, Gravity and Dark Void. |
Relevent replay:
2WQG-WWWW-WWW6-WZU8 Been trying for ages to get a good kangaskhan vid |
Smogon......I don't play by their rules. I believe a lot of it is stupid. Blaziken is banned why? Blaziken isn't that great and Scolipede is actually 10x the Baton Passer Blaziken is. Being a BP fanatic I have tested this excessively. Blaziken is actually really easy to take down. I've never personally had a problem with it.
Evasion? How do people think this strategy is hard to battle against? Uncompetitive!? That's like saying Trick Room is uncompetitive. There is so much to combat evasion it's ridiculous it's still banned. The evasion argument is like trying to convert a 90 year old Catholic to Atheism. People against it just won't ever seen how blind they really are. What's really bad? Stealth Rock. Not saying it should be banned but how does it not classify the same as other banned items? You have to put a counter or two on your team, it absolutely destroys certain Pokémon. Look at Rain last Gen. Almost every team you battle was Rain and all teams had like 9 different Pokémon. How was that fun? Smogon is kind of that love/hate. It gives players something to abide by but it's far from perfect. EDIT: On the evasion clause and making the game luck based, Focus Blast without evasion is luck based. How many Pokémon still run it for coverage? How many people still use Aura Sphere without evasion? Mega Gengar sometimes uses FB. Mewtwo X sometimes uses Aura Sphere. Evasion is just another strategy you prepare for, it's not even that great. You run Rapid Spin or Defog on almost every team? Why no Haze? |
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Then again, it all comes down to luck. Luck has always played a big part in Pokemon. But I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, just throwing my opinion out there. I like Haze as a big **** you to all those Scizors and Cloysters though. also Toxic Boost Facade max speed 252 attack zangoose is the best thing in the world |
Well it's like you just mentioned, Haze isn't only for Evasion Pokémon/Teams. It actually has use against Pokémon that boost ANYTHING!! So it's not dead weight. One move slot and when is the last time you saw a team without a single booster?
Why isn't evasion allowed? Oh that's right!! It is in my eyes!! Granted I never use it like I never use Mega Kanga or Mega Gar but I don't tend to follow Smogon rules. Just cause I don't follow their rules doesn't mean I go out and make the most Uber hax team ever. |
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I'm curious as to how many people actually played against Blaziken before it's almost immediate ban. I understand how Mega Kangaskhan can cause problems, Mega Gengar is hacked as all hell. With a Kyurem-W SAtk and monstrous Spe. Shadow Tag + Perish Song + Destiny Bond is insane. You add STAB Shadow Ball off 170 SAtk, okay it's completely overpowered. Blaziken? Easy enough to counter. Even on a full Baton Pass team I would much rather use Scolipede. |
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Though I'm not sure why people complain when something's banned. There's plenty of other pokes to use, and if you wanna use the banned poke, battle in Ubers. And Evasion Clause exists to remove another luck-based factor from competitive battles. There's enough luck based crap in Pokemnon already; lets not turn competitive battles into a fancy version of gambling. If I wanna gamble, I'll go to the nearest casino and play craps or roulette or something. |
Another luck based factor? The fact that you have to say ANOTHER is the point. People are lazy and don't feel like dealing with an overall terrible strategy. I probably wouldn't feel so strongly about it if Evasion weren't such a terrible strategy. It is so ridiculously easy to beat it's stupid. It's like banning Pikachu with Light Ball. What would be the point?
Smogon is so blinded by their move sets to counter this Pokémon and that. People don't want the accuracy of the already terribly inaccurate Focus Blast to be put into jeopardy. One evasion boost does what? Turns a regular attack into Focus Blast? What about attacks that never miss? Haze. I can't keep repeating Haze. It has good distribution and it's just like running Defog. Oh you don't want to get rid of your boosts to combat the opponent? It is laziness to adapt to a new Meta and fear of having to learn new strategies. People are stuck in their ways. Why don't we see just how much usage Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Gengar and evasion get in VGC. I'm assuming evasion won't see much use because it's a terrible strategy. |
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Even in a situation without Haze, in which yes, you can kill a Poke' trying to use Evasion to it's advantage, they can be killed easily with the right answer, but what if you don't have the right answer right then? What if they are able to get just two evasive moves off. You can still hit it right? But what if you don't? Yes I am putting the Luck Factor into perspective, but the Luck Factor IS a part of competitive battling. You say Smogon is so blinded by their ways, when Smogon is an entire community of people, just just a committee. Each banned Poke has been taken into testing by people who move up their ladder battling, and then put to a vote among the community. Sound hard? I was able to ladder in about three to four days to put my vote into say, so therefore you could do the same. How does that show laziness? Have you ever legitimately tested against a tuned team with Blaziken? And then you are comparing Smogon Singles.... To VGC Doubles? you do realize that these are completely different metas right? The amount of difference between having two Poke' against two Poke' and 1v1 is incredible. Also, if you check out the site Nuggetbridge, you can see reports of Top 16 rankings/teams of recent VGC Tournaments, which have a fair number of Kangaskhan's and Gengar's among them. |
VGC someone said?
Mega Kangaskan is in like half the teams or so seen among the top 16 at tournaments, as ToWriteLove said. A third at the very least. Also, Kangaskan is the third most used Pokemon in Season 2 of Special Battles, which was and is following VGC rules. Evasion moves fall under the set-up move list and like just about every other set up move, it's not used because the meta is too aggressive. You may see a random Sand Veil Garchomp holding Bright Powder, however. That damned thing cost me top 16 two Spring VGCs ago. (How does THREE Ice Beams miss???) Mega Gengar is uncommon but you'll see them on most Perish teams. I'm not sure why you're comparing VGC to Smogon. It's easier to compare apples to grapes. |
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The thing you need to understand is that human beings are the ones playing Pokemon competitively. Most people are NOT creative and NOT good strategists; therefore you can't expect them to come up with ways to counter new threats or attempt to learn new strategies. People play to win. |
Every team carries counters to other Pokémon. This is my point with Blaziken. You build your team to counter threats. Blaziken is not uncountable, at least not nearly as bad as Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Gengar.
I understand that Singles and Doubles are different play styles but why wouldn't Hail+Snow Cloak+Bright Powder work for an Evasion build? Other Pokémon could use other skills, I don't think the aggressive style means you can't use it. Combine that Evasion with STAB 100% accurate Blizzard? Froslass also has STAB Shadow Ball. It could be done. My purpose for bringing up VGC and the usage of Pokémon and Evasion is the Pokémon are being used while evasion isn't except in rare cases. Of course anything could pop up in VGC so it's a moot point. On the point of losing your Haze user, what happens if you lose your spinner/defogger? You can end up severely crippled either way based on your team. Simply put, if people use moves that increase accuracy, why not decrease? The entire game is luck based, why remove something that is luck based? It doesn't make sense. |
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