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wolf April 9th, 2014 11:10 AM

Welcome to the Strategies & Movesets forum for Sun & Moon!
 
This is simply a hangout for battlers of PC. :) Enjoy laid-back discussion of battling, team building, etc. PvP or PvE, competitive or casual, it all fits here. You also may talk about topics not related to battling, but please keep it in moderation.

wolf April 9th, 2014 11:16 AM

To get the conversation started, any thoughts regarding the recent ban on Swagger? Do you think it was needed? Charizard also recently made it to #1 in OU usage. Do you think it's deserving of that title? Or perhaps more deserving of Ubers, hohoho.

Nah April 9th, 2014 11:37 AM

Oh, so they finally finished suspect testing that? Did they just ban the move Swagger, or did they ban it in conjunction with something else (ie. Prankster)?


As for Charizard hitting #1 usage in OU, its not surprising. People have a nostalgic love for it, and it finally doesn't suck because of its Mega Evos (particulary because it has 2 of 'em).


first non-staff post of Battle Center's DCC, ♥♥♥♥♥es

The Undisputed Era April 9th, 2014 1:56 PM

I know a lot of people used to be really annoyed with Liepard's T-Wave+Swagger combination but I don't think swagger is too much of an OP move to warrant needing a ban. Not many people run it on anything else and you wouldn't intentionally swagger a physical sweeper because you know how pokemon loves it's hax. All in all I don't feel it being banned was necessary at all.

As for Charizard-X, I've said it a million times now and it needs moving to ubers, I know stealth rock and or toxic can destroy a DD Charizard-X but before toxic finally takes down a Charizard-X it could have taken out 2-3 of your pokemon, I use it in my OU team and there have been times where it looks like I've been beaten hard but then once you get 1 DD up you can potentially get a sweep going and I am sure the people who run Roost Charizard-X's would do a lot better than I do.

dreyko April 10th, 2014 11:22 AM

This is my first time hearing that Swagger was recently banned. Im not really sure why, other than the fact that it is prety annoying to lose to hax (even though it does happen).

I am also not surprised that Charizard has become so used in OU because both of its mega evo's are pretty viable right now.

Dr. Silver April 10th, 2014 11:42 AM

I'm really surprised to hear that something like Swagger has been considered "OP" enough to warrant a ban. Next we'll be seeing Thunder Wave or Will o Wisp under suspect testing.

Anti April 10th, 2014 4:20 PM

Swagger wasn't banned because it's overpowered, it was banned because it introduces an unneeded amount of luck into the game. While I feel like a complex ban would have been more appropriate (Prankster+Swagger), the strong anti-ban sentiment really confuses me. It's not like it's going to change battles where people are actually trying to win with skill (translation: no one uses Swagger unless they're deliberately trying to hax you with SwagPlay since it's an awful tactic otherwise), so I don't really see what the big deal is lol. Banning something like Will-O-Miss would be a lot more groundbreaking because it would actually have a serious impact on the metagame because it's a deterrent for physical sweepers etc. on skill-based teams.

Anyway, Charizard is pretty good, mostly because it's very unpredictable--will it be DD Charizard-X, wallbreaker Charizard-Y, or defensive Charizard-X with the crippling Will-O-Wisp? I pack ScarfChomp in large part to deal well with the first two while praying it's not the defensive Charizard-X variant. Charizard is definitely not Uber though, call me when it gets a better Speed tier and can deal with Stealth Rock. Amazing Pokemon, but it's not broken. Much like Mega Gyarados (an all-around beast that utterly dismantles offense), Charizard has many assets but can also be stopped if you prepare for it well. That's not as hard as it sometimes seems. Personally, I find Charizard-Y to be a massive pain though. :/

Also, just going to throw out there that Clefable is amazing with pretty much any set you run!

dreyko April 10th, 2014 5:01 PM

Ya, Charizard Y is a real pain to deal with. I agree that the mega zards wont be banished to Ubers because there are still ways to deal with them.

what set do you like on clefable?

Nah April 10th, 2014 5:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8192681)
Swagger wasn't banned because it's overpowered, it was banned because it introduces an unneeded amount of luck into the game. While I feel like a complex ban would have been more appropriate (Prankster+Swagger), the strong anti-ban sentiment really confuses me. It's not like it's going to change battles where people are actually trying to win with skill (translation: no one uses Swagger unless they're deliberately trying to hax you with SwagPlay since it's an awful tactic otherwise), so I don't really see what the big deal is lol. Banning something like Will-O-Miss would be a lot more groundbreaking because it would actually have a serious impact on the metagame because it's a deterrent for physical sweepers etc. on skill-based teams.

Anyway, Charizard is pretty good, mostly because it's very unpredictable--will it be DD Charizard-X, wallbreaker Charizard-Y, or defensive Charizard-X with the crippling Will-O-Wisp? I pack ScarfChomp in large part to deal well with the first two while praying it's not the defensive Charizard-X variant. Charizard is definitely not Uber though, call me when it gets a better Speed tier and can deal with Stealth Rock. Amazing Pokemon, but it's not broken. Much like Mega Gyarados (an all-around beast that utterly dismantles offense), Charizard has many assets but can also be stopped if you prepare for it well. That's not as hard as it sometimes seems. Personally, I find Charizard-Y to be a massive pain though. :/


The strong anti-ban sentiment comes mainly from the people who think, for some strange reason, that Smogon is forcing people to play a certain way. That's obviously not true, but people get strange ideas sometimes...


I agree with you that a more complex ban would've been better, but Smogon seems strangely reluctant to implement complex bans. And I also agree with you about Charizard.

Anti April 11th, 2014 6:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreyko (Post 8192761)
what set do you like on clefable?

I've been running Bold maxHP/maxDef (more or less, there's an amount of Spd I don't remember for Aeg or something like that) with Moonblast/Flamethrower/CM/[email protected] I find her use to be situational against offense, mainly acting as a lure for Ferrothorn and keeping Dragons from going wild. It also absorbs Will-O-Wisps and is the perfect switch into Conkeldurr. It's much better against stall, where it can usually get a sweep in once you remove their Heatran and Mega Venusaur. It's by no means an auto-win, but my team probably beats stall three out of four times, and Clefable (along with Thundurus with Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Psychic/[email protected]) is the reason why probably.

I would probably say it's not its best set though--I like offensive Magic Guard, but it misses its Leftovers surprisingly often and is juuuuust a bit too weak statistically to be a gen three Suicune/Snorlax-like threat vs. offense. Clefable is just an amazing Pokemon. I guess that's what good typing will do for you. I find the defensive sets to be very good Pokemon when I play vs. them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8192793)
The strong anti-ban sentiment comes mainly from the people who think, for some strange reason, that Smogon is forcing people to play a certain way. That's obviously not true, but people get strange ideas sometimes...

Yeah, anti-Smogon sentiment is pretty common. It's like the anti-vaccination movement of the Pokemon world. :/ (Not that Smogon isn't frustrating sometimes, or even often, but people get so worked up about it lol.)

Chocolate™ April 11th, 2014 7:43 AM

I'm actually quite happy with the Swagger ban. I have terrible luck and Swagger makes it even worse. I know that i was not completely necessary to ban Swagger, I still feel good about it. I also kept one being wrecked by a Klefki with T-Wave, Swagger, Substitute and Foul Play.

I'm not surprised that Charizard has snatched that #1 spot. It's extremely unpredictable. There have been so many times where I've gone for the E-quake on a Charizard predicting it to be Charizard X but later realizing that it's Y. Bulk Charizard X is a pain to deal with.

Clefable is also an extremely good pokemon at this stage. I've never used it but would probably go for the same set as Anti. The thing is most people forget to carry Poison or steel types in their team and get utterly annihilated by this mon.

Any thoughts on not-OU but usable pokemon introduce in XY?

ZettaSlowbro April 12th, 2014 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocolate™ (Post 8193555)
Any thoughts on not-OU but usable pokemon introduce in XY?

Slurpuff with Belly Drum and Unburden is pretty solid if it can set up, and I think it'll end up landing in the UU tier somewhere.

dreyko April 12th, 2014 11:41 AM

Slurpuff is decently bulky as well so i could easily see it having a good support/stall role as well as an aggresive set-up role on a team.

Also i just got an Aerodactyl with five perfect IVs, buuuut speed is the odd one out. Regardless, i am still pretty happy about it :D

Dark Azelf April 13th, 2014 5:48 AM

Idk why you'd use Slurpuff in a support role. Its inferior to Florges and Sylveon and even in lower tiers Aromatisse has superior bulk, is immune to Taunt (and Encore etc), has better attacking presence and passes bigger Wishes.


I also think Dragalgae is very underated. It has some great resistances, awesome bulk, decent support movepool and Adaptability just makes it massacre basically near everything on the offense. That and its not total fairy bait like most dragons lol.

Chocolate™ April 13th, 2014 8:20 AM

I agree with Dark Azelf. Slurpuff shouldn't be used in a support rule. I like Belly Drum Slurpuff more. It just destroys stuff.

I like Clawitzer a lot. It has a great variety of moves and access to U-Turn. It also has great Sp Atck and a great ability. the only problem is it's speed. I think i would probably be in UU except for the fact that Blastoise had already proved itself as the foremost Mega Launcher user and that it has access Rapid Spin.

Nah April 13th, 2014 3:19 PM

Apparently Smogon is now considering suspect testing Baton Pass.

Thoughts?

Anti April 15th, 2014 6:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8197074)

They absolutely should suspect test it and I have little doubt that the result would be a well-deserved complex ban.

I think everyone can agree (or, good lord, I hope so) that no one wants a metagame where the game is over before it starts, which is to say that the team matchup more than individual play determines outcomes consistently. I realize that with so many Pokemon, you're sometimes going to have rough matchups, and that's just a part of life with team building. However, that variances comes with individual teams--not entire playstyles. How in the world is that healthy for the metagame?

And much like Swagger, what exactly is lost from testing/severely limiting BP chain teams? I know the stubbornly principled will (and have) insisted that people need to stop whining, need to adapt or change their teams to better prepare, that BP teams are easy to beat, that Smogon is ban-happy. To those people: OK, "you're right," now that you've asserted your moral superiority, can we remove such a fundamentally uncompetitive playstyle from the game? It's not like banning Swagger was any restriction on people who, you know, are actually trying to play the game, and BP is exactly the same. I know the opportunity to use the BP issue as a pretense to complain about Smogon or banning or whatever is tempting, but BP is uncompetitive and unhealthy.

(Not to get ahead of myself, but it should be a complex ban. Banning Baton Pass as a move would be unnecessary and a little too restrictive, however minor.)

PlatinumDude April 15th, 2014 6:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8196332)
Idk why you'd use Slurpuff in a support role. Its inferior to Florges and Sylveon and even in lower tiers Aromatisse has superior bulk, is immune to Taunt (and Encore etc), has better attacking presence and passes bigger Wishes.


I also think Dragalgae is very underated. It has some great resistances, awesome bulk, decent support movepool and Adaptability just makes it massacre basically near everything on the offense. That and its not total fairy bait like most dragons lol.

Just putting that out there, but Adaptability Dragalge isn't available yet. Right now, it's still mediocre.

Anyway, regarding the Baton Pass suspect testing, I'm kind of glad they're doing it, since I tend to lose to dedicated Baton Pass teams.

Nah April 15th, 2014 6:48 AM

I'm not sure what's so bad about Baton Pass teams, but if they do decide to ban it, a complex ban is best. Unfortunately, that's probably not gonna happen; Smogon doesn't like to do the complex bans for some reason.


Also, why the ban now? What's so different this gen that warrants a suspect test for BP? If its that bad, why wasn't it banned last gen?

praj.pran April 15th, 2014 11:14 AM

i dont think baton pass should be ban

Dark Azelf April 16th, 2014 12:50 PM

Yeah banning baton pass as a whole seems silly.

Its easy to stop even when you dont really prepare for it. :/ Espeon is their only defense against a fast Taunt and they have little way in effect of stopping offensive juggernauts like Charizard, Garchomp etc. Trick/Encore also ruins them. You also have various Phazing methods.

The only thing i can think of that influence it in the ban camps favor would be the crit nerf, but i digress.

I think something like "Baton (P)Ass clause: No more than <insert arbitrary number less than 6> pokes per team with the move Baton Pass" would be better than a flat out ban.

Removing short BP chains (for example: Quiver Dance Venomoth ----> Heatran) as well as full long BP chain teams really seems well a little....restrictive and frankly, much.

Anti April 17th, 2014 5:41 AM

I certainly hope no one simply bans BP altogether, which is to say that they ban the move. That's overly restrictive.

I don't think "it's easy to stop" is a good argument. Yeah, I win many games against BP too, but I don't see how that's really relevant when this is a question of competitiveness rather than brokenness. Even so, I do want to point out that if you're dismissing it so easily, you've probably never played against a good player using it? I realize this might seem contradictory to my "no skill" assertion, but I don't think so--you have to be a D+ level player or higher to win with BP (not even close to true of offense, balance, or even stall), but being an A-level player sure doesn't hurt.

Anyway, just figured I'd reiterate the "why should anyone care if full BP chains get nerfed?" point. It's not like it adds to the metagame, and I get the principle behind "just prepare for it better," but when stall starts running things like Haze Quagsire (lol) to beat it, it's probably better to just remove the playstyle because it's not like those I listed earlier. If people started calling to remove Chansey or Clefable or something because of stall, I'd be right there with you, but BP doesn't add anything to the metagame being a cynical, robotic, and downright obnoxious playstyle. I agree that it's restrictive, any ban is, but I can't see how that restriction is harmful really.

Also you is mentioning the crit nerf is telling as it acknowledges how that's how many teams have to beat the chains if the opponent isn't totally inept.

ilu bb <3

Dark Azelf April 17th, 2014 4:06 PM

I have played against good players using it. Both with stall and (shock) offense.

Ironically the offensive team i was using i just threw random crap together i didnt even prepare for it. Baton Pass simple cant set up on powerful sweepers. Baton Pass cant switch into anything remotely powerful ranging from things like Greninja to mega pinsir to Garchomp to Charizard-X/Y. :/

Stall is stall and i dont think i need to point out how that went. I didnt use Haze btw lol.

Anti April 18th, 2014 7:06 AM

Anecdotal evidence is not very compelling. Unless BP magically becomes competitive in the sense that the battle isn't determined 98% of the time by team matchup, I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!" (And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)

Nah April 18th, 2014 11:43 AM

I don't think that Baton Pass needs a ban that bad. It's not like BP teams are really common.

Dark Azelf April 19th, 2014 5:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8203498)
Anecdotal evidence is not very compelling. Unless BP magically becomes competitive in the sense that the battle isn't determined 98% of the time by team matchup, I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!" (And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)

Isnt every match determined by team match up? Most teams/people suck vs stall. Stall also follows an algorithm the same as Baton Pass allegedly does i.e "uncompetitive". I (and some of the best stall players have said this too) literally go into auto pilot with stall lol. Id argue Baton Pass takes more skill because if they lead with something like Charizard-X turn one....oops gg you lose, you cant Iron Defense/Acid Armour pass and it runs through your whole team. Its not just Charizard X which does this. Also before you say, yes ive both used and battled top 20 ladder BP teams with stall, offense and my own BP. I won the majority of those matches. If you keep up offensive pressure and play smartly the matches are easy. With stall, if you dont run some sort of win condition i.e Curse/Perish Song/Taunt/Haze etc your team isnt very good and you lose to stuff like last poke/Clefable regardless.

Id actually point at the general skill of ladder players and their teambuilding abilities if BP is an issue. Its often been said the skill level of the ladder is generally poor, but i digress. Im not saying BP isnt a good play style, it is good...when it works, however it has some fundamental flaws which ive outlined. However the assumption it takes no skill is absolutely a ridiculous opinion and id argue whoever says this hasnt used it themselves. It does take skill, more than most playstyles. This isnt like Moody where the match turns into pot luck. It can be defeated with relative ease when you prepare for it (which ill talk about later). If you cant beat unboosted Pokemon from turn 1, id argue your team doesnt have much offensive prowess (or you simply dont prepare for stat boosters well enough, this applies in the case of defensive teams) and it will struggle against other teams archetypes too, especially those that lean defensively towards BO/Stall and will struggle to break them which as ive said is why most people suck against stall too. That or your team just presents far too many opportunities for free turns and set ups, again its not just Baton Pass that will make you pay for this.

Quote:

I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!
Its quite relevant when it OHKO's every Pokemon with access to Baton Pass and 2hko's even with a +1 SP.Def boost. There are alot of other Pokemon which do do the same not just Charizard-Y. Which brings me to this;

Quote:

And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)
The stigma against BP is a huge problem ive noticed, especially when looking at it from a rational standpoint, and the ragequits, forfeits, and un-willingness to change so that you can easily beat BP are also an issue.

Anti April 22nd, 2014 7:29 AM

Ah yes, the old "failure to adapt" argument. Should we unleash SwagPlay again because we were just too lazy to adapt by running Chansey/*insert SwagPlay "counter"*?

There's a reason BP is stigmatized. It's not really a competitive strategy--you're just not playing the game. The difference, in a nutshell, is that BP is playing the game tactically, while everything else is strategic. Stall is difficult for poor players to break too, but no one wants to ban Mega Venusaur or Chansey. Maybe there's something else going on here besides a failure to adapt?

The question you're answering is "Is BP broken?" I think that's the wrong question to ask. There is a precedent for banning things that aren't broken, as OHKO clause and evasion clause show us. (Unless you think Double Team is broken. But hey, maybe we should all just adapt and run No Guard Machamp or a Hazer.) The question to ask is "Are BP chains healthy for the metagame?" or "Are BP chains inherently uncompetitive?" Charizard-Y has nothing to do with these questions.

(Personally, I think a complex ban is the perfect answer--by nerfing chains but keeping BP as a move and as a more limited strategy around, it prevents boring, tactical, uncompetitive matches on the ladder while punishing people who don't adequately prepare for stat-uppers. If you disagree, fine, but "failure to adapt" is a lazy, elitist argument and you should know better. It's not just bad players who want this gone and you know it.)

Nah April 22nd, 2014 7:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8210169)
tactically, while everything else is strategic.

Why does this matter?

Quote:

The question to ask is "Are BP chains healthy for the metagame?" or "Are BP chains inherently uncompetitive?"
You may have to elaborate on what is "healthy" for the meta. I could argue that the weather-centric metagame was "unhealthy" last gen. Smogon never did much about that.

Quote:

Personally, I think a complex ban is the perfect answer--by nerfing chains but keeping BP as a move and as a more limited strategy around, it prevents boring, tactical, uncompetitive matches on the ladder while punishing people who don't adequately prepare for stat-uppers.
I agree with you on this. If Baton Pass must be banned, complex is the best. Though I don't get why people wouldn't prepare for stat boosters when they're so common....

Anti April 22nd, 2014 5:47 PM

The issue of subjectivity that you raise is important. It's up to every individual to determine that. The distinctions I make are personal, though I do feel like BP is more clear-cut than weather. Gen 5 was pretty terrible though.

In terms of your first question, I think the essence of competitive Pokemon is strategy, both in team building and in battle. BP is very rigid and unadaptable in terms of how it's played. While it can be played with varying degrees of skill, it does not engage the game the same way that every other playstyle does. It's very frustrating that people try to win games like that, and I personally don't think it's healthy regardless of whether or not it can be easily dealt with. (Though I will reiterate that if it were so easy, people probably wouldn't care. But when ban opponents start throwing out Roar Mega Gyarados as a counter because its Roar bypasses Mr. Mime's Soundproof, maybe that's your first hint it's not so easily disposed of...)

So I suppose it's just a matter of taste. I don't see how the game would be negatively impacted in any way if chains were nerfed.

sword May 4th, 2014 11:03 PM

Someone please tell me what is the best team to deafet the elite four of pokemon fire red?

srinator May 4th, 2014 11:46 PM

hmm, in game team is all about the pokemon level lol, i have only played fire red so who knows, level 100 charizard was enough :P

Dark Azelf May 5th, 2014 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sword (Post 8231903)
Someone please tell me what is the best team to deafet the elite four of pokemon fire red?


Nah man, level 98 Mewtwo is the best team. No Suhttp://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/c/c8/Dream_Hyper_Potion_Sprite.pngper Potions.

That is all.

SnowpointQuincy May 12th, 2014 8:11 AM

When XY was released, there was a Kalos Dex Only season of Special Battle. Do you think there will be a Season of Special Battle limited to the Hoenn Pokedex?

Half of all megas are listed in the Hoenn dex, so there would be plenty to choose from. Kalos mons would be cut out, but it would only be for a few months of special battle.

I think that might be a Possibility in the month following the release date. It would shake up the meta game by removing the top Mons like Ageis, Talon, Garchomp. Giving Hoenn Pokemon a chance to see how is on top.... Resulting in Salamence all the way down.

Nah May 12th, 2014 8:22 AM

I could definitely see them doing that for ORAS, especially with all the hype for it. It would certainly make things a little different, though it depends on what pokes are included in the Hoenn dex this time around. It's possible that they'll expand it to include more Pokemon.....but then maybe Talonflames will suddenly appear in Hoenn.

Pokedra May 13th, 2014 5:06 AM

So anyone care to give me a rundown on how the meta is looking?

Although I gotta say, Kyurem not even being good enough for UU anymore. Poooower creep.

Anti May 13th, 2014 10:16 AM

Do you mean the OU or UU metagame?

Nah May 13th, 2014 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 8248337)
Although I gotta say, Kyurem not even being good enough for UU anymore. Poooower creep.

Huh? Kyurem's still good enough for UU. You just can't use BlizzSpam anymore.....

Pokedra May 13th, 2014 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8248749)
Do you mean the OU or UU metagame?

OU I guess.

Although UU looks pretty good.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8248752)
Huh? Kyurem's still good enough for UU. You just can't use BlizzSpam anymore.....

Generally I found in Gen V, BL2 Pokemon to be usable for UU but still a sub-par pick most of the time. Hence why they aren't UU ^^

Anti May 14th, 2014 12:36 PM

OU is pretty chill, nice and balanced. Stall works, offense, balance works, rain works, Baton Pass is still around for now, etc. Some thoughts:

- Stall is good but is very easy to counter-team. You know you'll be seeing Chansey. Any stall worth anything has Quagsire or Clefable too. Mega Venusaur or Amoonguss will be there. Skarmory is common. It's just not that hard to construct an offensive team that can wear down the real heavy lifters defensively, especially since Venusaur and Chansey don't have Leftovers recovery (and many Skarmory use Rocky Helmet...) which just makes life easier. Honestly, I only ever lose to stall when I really botch the execution, but it's probably the most consistent win for me. And I run ScarfChomp and Ferrothorn on my team.

- Slow sweepers just aren't worth it. Too many fast Pokemon and too much priority. Why would you use, say, Manaphy when you can use Greninja and hit faster with more coverage and immediate power? It's not like the added bulk is really doing much for you when you're contended with Thundurus, Landorus, Speed-tying Charizard, etc. The lone exception is Landorus because it murders stall, but he's more of a breaker than a sweeper (unless you're using the inferior Calm Mind variant), but even he is bad against offense since Ground STAB is pretty bad.

- Clefable is an awesome Pokemon. Ditto for Aegislash, who I suspect will eventually get suspect tested. Great defensive typing and stats to come in easily? Check. Diverse movesets despite a fairly limited pool of usable moves? Check. Best offensive STAB in the game? Check. It can just do anything. I've destroyed so many Bisharp with fast Aeg when they expect a switch and Pursuit or Knock Off--I've only been Sucker Punched once. It's such an amazing breaker and the only one I've used that often just flat-out sweeps. Probably the most consistently amazing Pokemon I've ever used, and he sucks to face too.

- The metagame balances itself out remarkably well. For as many top-tier threats as there are, I never feel particularly overwhelmed trying to cover everything. DeoSharp is a pain but can be pretty easily counterteamed itself and it helps that many of its users don't know what they're doing.

- Scald is the worst thing ever.

- So is Baton Pass.

- And let's not forget Ice Fang missing. :(

MoxieInfinite May 21st, 2014 2:58 PM

Offense in general dominates OU, stall is not near as good as it used to be (in ADV it did very well).

Hikamaru June 4th, 2014 10:58 PM

So, apparently the latest tiering news was released and it's quite a hard one:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/

Some notable once-shining stars of OU - Alakazam, Volcarona, Blissey, Lucario and Infernape finally fell from grace, dropping from OU into UU. Now people who are new to the metagame will probably be calling Blissey "mediocre" due to the latest changes. I bet they just couldn't survive the onslaught of Wash Rotom and Aegislash (aka the new top OU stars).

So how is everyone reacting to these changes?

Zeffy June 4th, 2014 11:34 PM

These changes aren't really anything major if we're talking about OU. Things are different in UU, however, because Volcarona and maybe Lucario wrecks almost everything in there.

Nah June 5th, 2014 5:04 AM

I was kinda expecting Alakazam and Volcarona to drop to UU, but not Lucario and Blissey. Not sure how something with an Ubers Mega Evolution dropped to UU, and Blissey still seems like OU material to me.

...And now half of my 1st OU team is now classified as UU. It has Hydreigon, Volcarona, Mega Aggron, Togekiss, Gastrodon, and Excadrill in it. Still gonna use them in OU anyway lol.

But what I'm really waiting for is the results of the suspect test on full Baton Pass teams.

PlatinumDude June 5th, 2014 1:08 PM

I'm actually surprised that Manectric, Gardevoir, Medicham and Scolipede secured solid OU status; I expected them to stay in BL, tbh.

As for Infernape, Volcarona and Blissey falling to UU...that's a surprise. I still think they're viable in OU, though.

Zeffy June 5th, 2014 6:22 PM

It's very likely that Lucario and Volcarona will move up into BL in the next week or so. Blissey, however, is outclassed by Chansey in terms of usefulness in OU imo. The only advantages that Blissey has over Chansey are better attacking stats and not susceptible to Knock Off.

I do like how UU is looking right now, though. It's like another DPP OU lol

Hikamaru June 5th, 2014 6:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8287119)
I'm actually surprised that Manectric, Gardevoir, Medicham and Scolipede secured solid OU status; I expected them to stay in BL, tbh.

As for Infernape, Volcarona and Blissey falling to UU...that's a surprise. I still think they're viable in OU, though.

When Scolipede got Speed Boost, I was pretty certain he was going to shoot up to OU and it seems like I was right. Medicham I guess managed to make it because its Mega gains a solid boost to its Speed (Mega Medicham has 100 base Speed, which is pretty common in OU) along with still having the strength thanks to Pure Power.

Not sure about Gardevoir, but I guess it's to do with Megas again given how powerful those Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voices can get, as already proven with Sylveon. Mega Gardevoir's pretty high Sp. Attack makes those Hyper Voices really hurt, I know she'll struggle against Steels but Focus Blast handles them, and Shadow Ball can get past Aegislash at times. I know Aegislash will be the main threat because it has an advantage on both of Gardy's types. Still, interesting decision on Smogon's part.

Manectric was kinda surprising, because I remember when Jolteon used to outclass it but now with Mega Manectric in play it's the other way around. Despite having the weakest stat total of all the Megas, I guess the reason Manectric made it was due to its Speed, strong special attacking prowess and Intimidate which softens physical hits slightly. I think it's the one I'm really questioned about but I'll see how well it performs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8287443)
It's very likely that Lucario and Volcarona will move up into BL in the next week or so. Blissey, however, is outclassed by Chansey in terms of usefulness in OU imo. The only advantages that Blissey has over Chansey are better attacking stats and not susceptible to Knock Off.

I do like how UU is looking right now, though. It's like another DPP OU lol

I was also suspecting the reason Blissey fell was due to Eviolite Chansey outclassing it, but yeah it's still a rare case that a Pokemon is somehow in a lower tier than its pre-evo. Lucario I think could make it into BL because it still has the power behind its moves, and there's still the Baton Pass suspect testing that will be going on in OU and the results of that could see even more changes to come.

Anti June 5th, 2014 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8287119)
I'm actually surprised that Manectric, Gardevoir, Medicham and Scolipede secured solid OU status; I expected them to stay in BL, tbh.

As for Infernape, Volcarona and Blissey falling to UU...that's a surprise. I still think they're viable in OU, though.

To this (and the above poster), Mega Manectric is quite good--Intimidate is wonderful, and its combination of power and speed mixed with the momentum grabbing prowess of Volt Switch make it a fantastic choice on most offense teams. Its only real problems are that it struggles against stall and takes up the mega slot, but it's definitely OU material. (And Scolipede is a staple on BP which litters much of the upper ladder and will soon get nerfed, so...yeah.)

Blissey is almost entirely outclassed by Chansey. I love when my opponents use Blissey instead because it's so much easier to break. Even the Knock Off thing Zeffy brought up is somewhat silly, as Blissey hates losing its Leftovers, and more importantly, it hates taking a strong physical attack and might as well not be there if it's going to be taking Knock Offs. Pokemon that use Knock Off are diverse, but Bisharp creams both of them, Ferrothorn can Leech Seed, Landorus-T can set up on either and has massive Attack, and...yeah, Blissey sucks lol.

Lucario is terrible in OU in my experience playing against it. It's never a threat, and it's not like my team is particularly well-prepared for it. It's just too difficult to set up despite its Steel typing. It could be good in UU though, but I don't know anything about that metagame.

Volcarona is a major threat in OU, but Stealth Rock :(

I agree though that Medicham is somewhat surprising--it's a nuke. Still tough to get in, but double switching exists and it's just fast enough to be a pain. I bet better physical megas contributed to low usage, with mega Gyarados, Charizard-X, Mawile, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Pinsir all being huge threats that are in a different class than Medicham.

Hikamaru June 6th, 2014 2:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8287631)
To this (and the above poster), Mega Manectric is quite good--Intimidate is wonderful, and its combination of power and speed mixed with the momentum grabbing prowess of Volt Switch make it a fantastic choice on most offense teams. Its only real problems are that it struggles against stall and takes up the mega slot, but it's definitely OU material.

I do have to agree Mega Manectric is really good, I remember every time I was pitted against one I always had problems taking it down due to its speed and power, along with Intimidate weakening any physical attacker I plan to use against it. And of course it can scout with Volt Switch, which means if you can't outrun it it'll most likely be passing over to a teammate that can deal with its foe. It really does deserve its spot in OU, even if it has the shallowest movepool of the Megas, it still has its niches.

Nah June 6th, 2014 3:26 PM

I think the surprise about Gardevoir and Manectric being in OU is more that the regular forms are in OU. Their megas are obviously OU worthy, but maybe not so much regular Gardevoir and Manectric.

PlatinumDude June 7th, 2014 8:05 AM

Mega Sceptile and Mega Swampert have been leaked in Corocoro. Mega Sceptile is Grass/Dragon and has Lightning Rod as an ability. Mega Swampert retains the Water/Ground type and has Swift Swim. Mega Diancie has been revealed too, but we don't know anything else about it.

Personally, I think that Lightning Rod is rather underwhelming for Mega Sceptile, considering that it would 4x resist Electric without it. Switching in to Thunder Waves is neat, though. I'm also glad that Mega Swampert got Swift Swim not only in terms of Dex entries (in its Emerald Dex entry, regular Swampert swims as fast as a jet ski), but because of usefulness: it finally can compensate for its low Speed outside of Choice Scarf, but only in rain.

What stat increases do you think these Mega forms will get? (assuming speculation isn't allowed in this thread)

Anti June 7th, 2014 9:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8288382)
I think the surprise about Gardevoir and Manectric being in OU is more that the regular forms are in OU. Their megas are obviously OU worthy, but maybe not so much regular Gardevoir and Manectric.

My understanding is that the tiers are based on usage, and since it's impossible to use a mega without first sending in its base form, things like normal Mawile are going to be OU. I'm sure you could use usage statistics to see how much each mega stone is used, but that could become a mathematical nightmare when determining cutoffs so I think Smogon is trying to keep it simple?

As for mega Hoenn starters, Swift Swim could be nice for Rain teams, and Ground typing is nice for stuff like Mega Manectric. Of course, it depends on his stats. Sceptile is intriguing but is still going to need a way to get through Steel-types--maybe Earthquake and HP Fire with its STABs if its stats are good enough. :) But Speed is always welcome.

Hikamaru June 7th, 2014 9:25 AM

Okay here's my thoughts on those new Hoenn starter Megas.

Mega Swampert may look ugly appearance-wise (but I guess that's just me) but Swift Swim seems like a sweet ability for it because not only did it sorta fit with one of Swampert's Pokedex entries but it will be handy to use on Rain-based teams (even if weather did get nerfed this generation) given the ability can allow it to overcome its low Speed in the rain. For stat boosts I'm expecting most likely Attack along with both its defenses, the huge fists also make me think it'll have slightly lower Speed than its non-Mega, sorta like what happened with Garchomp and Ampharos. And I think Anti's statement is onto something, it could become a potential good Mega Manectric counter, so I'd imagine those using Mega Manectric would have to run Hidden Power Grass just to avoid getting completely walled by it.

Still, I wonder if this will be the boost Swampert was wanting all along to become more viable competitively again, since its prowess was hurt a bit due to Ferrothorn's presence. Only time will tell. Thank god it didn't get Sap Sipper because that would have been nasty, given it would have had no weaknesses aside from Freeze-Dry in that case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8289416)
maybe Earthquake and HP Fire with its STABs if its stats are good enough.

Sceptile can already learn Earthquake through TM. But I do agree with Platinum's post, Mega Sceptile's ability is kinda not a good complement with its type combination because as he mentioned, the Grass/Dragon combination, not counting any abilities, has a 4x resistance to Electric attacks but it can be good for blocking Thunder Wave in some way. Given that Grass-types also have the immunity to spore/powder moves I realize it'll be very hard to successfully paralyze because Stun Spore won't work, and now also Thunder Wave (and other Electric moves) due to Lightning Rod. It seems like the ultimate wall to the best paralysis-inducing moves, since most of those moves are Electric-type. Although Mow Rotom has that same Stun Spore/Thunder Wave immunity combination (but that's due to its own typing in that case and not an ability) it's still worth mentioning. The only real way to land paralysis on Mega Sceptile iirc would be either from Tri Attack or a Thunder Wave that was used by something with Normalize (but we all know Delcatty sucks to begin with). Black Kyurem's Freeze Shock would work too but that 4x Ice weakness means it'll more likely get OHKO'd before even hoping for the paralysis side-effect. Oh, and there's also Glare but that gets shallow distribution because it's heavily associated with snakes.

I bet that'll really put a dent in the infamous SwagPlay Liepard sets which like to use increased-priority Thunder Waves (due to Prankster) to set up the Swagger. I'm probably seeing Mega Sceptile getting a slight boost to its Speed (because well it is fast and that seems like what they want to go for here) but I'm hoping they can give it an Attack boost high enough to be even with its Sp. Attack so that it can use its larger physical-based movepool better. Apparently Mega Sceptile's Grass/Dragon typing walls the STABs of Wash Rotom. Competitive play surely got flipped on its head once again.

Nah June 7th, 2014 12:36 PM

Apparently a few other Pokemon were moved around in UU and OU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/

Goodra is also in UU now, and Vaporeon, Quagsire, and Smeargle are now in OU.

I'm not surprised at Vaporeon being OU; its always been good for me. Little annoyed at Smeargle being in OU since I had a sorta Baton Pass team in UU with it. My other UU team also had Vaporeon in it, so its look like I'll have to adjust my teams now....

Oh, and apparently Jolteon has dropped to RU.

Dark Azelf June 10th, 2014 1:01 AM

I actually like the look of Mega Sceptile. Awesome resistances and t-wave immunity.

Also you guys are forgetting that Lightningrod is amazing. I mean, how good is 4x walling the satan of Pokemon: see Rotom-W STAB moves? Not only that but getting a sp.att boost AND blocking VOLT SWITCH? Yes please!

Grass move/Dragon move/Focus Blast/HP Fire or SD/Dragon Claw/Leaf Blade/filler probs EQ or some sort of garbage mixed set seems cool.

Megapert might be decent on rain teams with some strange ass Power Up Punch set lol. :/

Hikamaru June 10th, 2014 2:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8293826)
I actually like the look of Mega Sceptile. Awesome resistances and t-wave immunity.

Also you guys are forgetting that Lightningrod is amazing. I mean, how good is 4x walling the satan of Pokemon: see Rotom-W STAB moves? Not only that but getting a sp.att boost AND blocking VOLT SWITCH? Yes please!

Blocking Wash Rotom's common sets is definitely something amazing. Immunity to Thunder Wave (and Stun Spore too, so yeah gonna be very hard to paralyze) to protect its high Speed along with blocking Volt Switch is like really gonna stop those Wash Rotoms cold in their tracks. I think what Game Freak were doing here was to make it fast and ensure it remains fast, and given how common Thunder Wave is in the metagame it can really put a dent in those that rely on it as part of their strategy.

I'd imagine Wash Rotom having to start running Hidden Power Ice in its sets just to avoid getting completely walled while also taking advantage of its 4x Ice weakness.

PlatinumDude June 10th, 2014 12:01 PM

E3 officially revealed Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon. According to them, Primal Kyogre retains the original's pure Water type, while Primal Groudon becomes Ground/Fire. Primal Kyogre's Special Attack is increased, while Primal Groudon's Attack is increased. Their Drizzle and Drought abilities will also be enhanced in some way.

What does anyone think? I think that Groudon kind of suffered with its Primal form, considering that it's still weak to Water (4x weak), even when sunny weather is active.

Hikamaru June 10th, 2014 6:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8294594)
E3 officially revealed Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon. According to them, Primal Kyogre retains the original's pure Water type, while Primal Groudon becomes Ground/Fire. Primal Kyogre's Special Attack is increased, while Primal Groudon's Attack is increased. Their Drizzle and Drought abilities will also be enhanced in some way.

What does anyone think? I think that Groudon kind of suffered with its Primal form, considering that it's still weak to Water (4x weak), even when sunny weather is active.

Yeah I do admit Groudon really suffered, gaining a nasty 4x Water weakness given the Ground/Fire typing is shared with fellow Hoenn Pokemon Camerupt. I always had a gut feeling Kyogre would be the better of the two mascots and it's now becoming even more evident.

But still, can't wait to hear how Drought and Drizzle will be enhanced.

Zeffy June 10th, 2014 6:25 PM

Drizzle and Drought enhanced? Maybe they'll get a perpetual weather version? :O

Nah June 10th, 2014 7:13 PM

I really hope that Drought and Drizzle aren't re-upgraded to perma-weather again. Even though it'd only be restricted to Ubers, I'm really not up for a weather-centric meta. That was kinda annoying last gen.

Zeffy June 10th, 2014 7:52 PM

I don't think that'd happen. I was talking about them getting a new version of Drought and Drizzle--which makes sense since, alongside their legendary status, they are the first Pokemon discovered to have that ability. I really wouldn't mind either way.

Nah June 10th, 2014 7:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8295291)
I don't think that'd happen. I was talking about them getting a new version of Drought and Drizzle

What exactly would a new version of Drought/Drizzle be?

Zeffy June 10th, 2014 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8295296)
What exactly would a new version of Drought/Drizzle be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8295172)
Drizzle and Drought enhanced? Maybe they'll get a perpetual weather version? :O

I'm just making an assumption. I'm more curious about "Ancient Devolution," to be honest. I've read that it's basically like a mega evolution.

PlatinumDude June 10th, 2014 10:44 PM

While we don't know exactly how the Primals' stats will be enhanced, I think that specially defensive Primal Groudon makes a decent Xerneas check. Assuming a decent increase in special bulk, Primal Groudon could act as a mixed wall of sorts. It still plays similarly to regular Groudon, but Primal Groudon fears Water moves more than ever. Its Fire moves are now stronger, since they gain STAB from Primal Groudon's Fire type and are potentially boosted by Sun.

PlatinumDude June 20th, 2014 7:24 AM

Updates on Mega Sableye: Its Defense and Special Attack get buffed, but its Speed suffers at the same time. It also gains the Magic Bounce ability.

I bet Special Defense will get increased a bit too, but the Speed drop is understandable, considering the huge gem Mega Sableye carries around. If Special Attack gets increased to a usable level, Mega Sableye won't have to rely on Foul Play for consistent damage (it's still useful against physical attackers, though), but at least it can use Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse more reliably now.

The question is, can Mega Sableye do Magic Bounce abuse better or just as well as Espeon, Xatu and Mega Absol?

Personally, I think that regular Sableye is still good thanks to Prankster letting it fire off quick status moves before getting hit, while its Mega form can screw around with opposing status with Magic Bounce. Whatever Sableye form to use will depend on the team or whether the Mega slot is taken up, though.

Hikamaru June 20th, 2014 7:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8309463)
Updates on Mega Sableye: Its Defense and Special Attack get buffed, but its Speed suffers at the same time. It also gains the Magic Bounce ability.

I bet Special Defense will get increased a bit too, but the Speed drop is understandable, considering the huge gem Mega Sableye carries around. If Special Attack gets increased to a usable level, Mega Sableye won't have to rely on Foul Play for consistent damage (it's still useful against physical attackers, though), but at least it can use Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse more reliably now.

The question is, can Mega Sableye do Magic Bounce abuse better or just as well as Espeon, Xatu and Mega Absol?

Personally, I think that regular Sableye is still good thanks to Prankster letting it fire off quick status moves before getting hit, while its Mega form can screw around with opposing status with Magic Bounce. Whatever Sableye form to use will depend on the team or whether the Mega slot is taken up, though.

Mega Sableye is quite interesting, I was expecting a boost to Defense and the lowered Speed which is fitting for the huge jewel it uses as a shield. Magic Bounce is of course a game changing ability when played right, it can disrupt strategies when timed correctly but I think Sableye can still do Prankster just as well, like you said it all depends on the team and what took up the Mega slot.

Can't wait to see how it will impact on the metagame once OR/AS comes out.

Nah June 20th, 2014 5:13 PM

It's kinda funny how Mega Sableye goes from wrecking people with its own priority status to wrecking people by reflecting status moves. I think that both forms will be usable, and which one you use depends on the team. The advantage that Mega Sableye has over the other Magic Bouncers is that its not weak to Dark or Fighting, and is generally bulkier than them.

PlatinumDude June 21st, 2014 7:34 AM

Just realized something: Calm Mind Mega Sableye is going to be dangerous, given that Magic Bounce means stall can't do much to it:
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
-Dazzling Gleam/Will-o-Wisp/Substitute
-Recover
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Sablite (if that's the name of the new Mega Stone)
Ability: Prankster

Anti June 22nd, 2014 4:10 PM

Hey folks, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D have both been suspected by Smogon.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-ou-suspect-testing-round-4-alienation-of-the-wretched.3509824/

So yeah, as someone down on the first page noted, it's funny how the Deoxys rodeo began in gen four and regardless of what you think of the test, they're probably getting banned...again. YOLO

(Even though I haven't seriously laddered in a few months and don't have a strong opinion either way for either suspect, I can't wait for the usual "failure to adapt" arguments as if broken things should stay in the metagame because people don't want to bend over backwards to beat them. lol.)

Dark Azelf June 24th, 2014 5:07 PM

You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

Anti June 24th, 2014 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8316143)
You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

Mega Gengar was insanely broken br0 let's be real #freereuniclus

I do think it's actually easier to get rid of hazards than people think though. I agree with that. Defiant is only so much of a deterrent. It's still pretty impossible to deny how great Deoxys is as a supporter. No opinion on Deo-S...my team was pretty overprepared for it sort of by accident, so its impact was usually limited when I laddered seriously. But I'm curious, does "these are bigger problems" translate to "Deoxys isn't a problem" br0?

Knock Off is a very tough sell. Many megas can "block" it and it's no more mindless than, say, DP(P) Draco/Outrage or...I hate to go there, but a move like Stealth Rock. It does a lot more damage to you over the course of the match and is even easier to abuse. It *is* the best move in the game, probably, soooo... (No, I'm not advocating for a ban or even test of Stealth Rock, but I wouldn't get carried away. And Dark is a good offensive type, but it's not Ghost or pre-gen6 Dragon.)

Aegislash's time is coming and it could very well get banned, mostly because its stats and typing both offensively and defensively are just out of this world. It has shades of DPP Latias--flexible, abusable STAB, useful resists, etc., and it's by no means unstoppable, but it's very consistently GREAT. That will be interesting.

(However, beyond that, I don't think anything is really approaching broken, though that could change with a new metagame. But Thundurus is too frail and vulnerable, Landorus too slow and reliant on a STAB that many great pokes are immune to, and Charizard just doesn't pass the eye test to me.)

champagnepapi June 24th, 2014 7:59 PM

Rechi's post in that thread sums it up basically. Defog makes hazard removal a lot easier but Deo-D guarantees SR with red card allowing it additional hazards or a t wave if he's lucky. Bisharp isn't an instant win if it gets a defog boost but at the least your opponent will have to sac something with sucker punch getting chip damage, or getting substantial chip damage on something like scarftar or terrakion on the switch, which can benefit you if you're a good team builder and the common checks to bisharp happen to wall your main sweeper. These 2 pokes alone force you into a disadvantage with ease and are more lethal the slower a team is. I agree with D-A that knock off is broken but I will go I to detail later. Landorus and Thund player hating post on its way as well

srinator June 26th, 2014 11:58 PM

Landorus -t is going to see a lot more usage in ubers tbh since groudon den becomes weak to eq, but the fire typing should help tank geoxern, idk about the spd at this point. If mega Kyogre gets better bulk it should also be able to take atleast one good hit from geoxern. Since ubers is basically a geoxern meta rn it's all that comes to my mind. But tbh Kyogre just seems to become more and more op. Gone are the days when groudon took advantage of weakened water attacks in sun, atleast it can take some ice beam locked kyogre's on :>

Oh well #optimism

HoneClaw June 28th, 2014 9:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8316143)
You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

I don't think Deo-D and Deo-S aren't malignancies upon the metagame, but I can't wait for the delicious Aegislash suspect sh*tstorm that will invariably happen.

Like Anti said, it's like DPP Latias. I think the arguments by smogon user Halcyon sum up my emotions:

Quote:

Nope, it's actually way more comparable to Genesect. Aegislash is most definitely deserving of a suspect at least. It's a Pokemon that alters the metagame like no other. Answer me this: why do Ttar and Mega Pinsir run Earthquake? Why does Lucario run Earthquake? Why does Scizor run Knock Off when it's an inferior option to Superpower? The answer is Aegislash.

It's an incredibly centralizing Pokemon. The entire tier revolves around it. Every team has to be stacked with ways of beating it, and even then it is still capable of destroying teams with support. It's got a multitude of sets and there is no one Pokemon that can counter it (which means it is capable of ♥♥♥♥ing stall). SubToxic, KS 3 attacks, speedy LO 3 attacks, LO SD 3 attacks. All these are viable threats that can defeat whatever option you have to beat it. It can go physical, special, or mixed. It can be slow and bulky or slightly faster than key threats (Bisharp) and super powerful. Not to mention all the 50/50s it creates with Kings Shield. Please tell me how this is not EXACTLY like Genesect? The only thing Genesect had that Aegislash doesn't is U-turn. It's the most restrictive Pokemon in the tier bar none. It is a monster with both 150/150 defenses and 150/150 offenses. How does this not scream "suspect worthy"?
Honestly, I'd just love to see the metagame without Aegislash. It'd be really interesting. I'm not saying I want it banned, but just that I think it'd be cool to experience the metagame without what is arguably its most defining Pokemon.

Although let's be honest, everyone knows that Landorus and Thundurus will be the next suspects.

champagnepapi June 29th, 2014 4:41 PM

I guess Aegislash is centralizing although I don't think the current situation is as bad as bw2 landorus keldeo breloom meta where the best pokemon all had the same counters and every team was those 3+ a tyranitar and a latios. I'm on the fence about aegis, I think kings shield is its most broken aspect since it can stop a sweep by forcing a predicton.

SuperEspeon July 6th, 2014 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8289752)
Apparently a few other Pokemon were moved around in UU and OU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/

Goodra is also in UU now, and Vaporeon, Quagsire, and Smeargle are now in OU.

I'm not surprised at Vaporeon being OU; its always been good for me. Little annoyed at Smeargle being in OU since I had a sorta Baton Pass team in UU with it. My other UU team also had Vaporeon in it, so its look like I'll have to adjust my teams now....

Oh, and apparently Jolteon has dropped to RU.

I was real surprised that Goodra got dropped to UU; it's a freaking Psuedolegendary.
Not alto surprised at Vaporeon, that beast has got bulk beyond belief.
Smeargle kind of surprised me, but I can see why its in OU now, its a pretty damn good baton passer/supporter.
Jolteon was given, as it's glory days are gone over. Kind of sad to see it go, as it was one of my favorite pokemon at one time. I can't remember the last time I've seen someone use it, so I guess this drop was rightfully so.

I would like to start a new discussion, on Protean Greninjas. I think this pokemon is pretty damn cheap and annoying, but Im just wondering what you guys think on it. Although, I am mostly an NU player, so this doesnt affect me too much, but when I do venture into OU, I should either be prepared to use a Greninja or face off against one.

Nah July 6th, 2014 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperEspeon (Post 8333757)
I was real surprised that Goodra got dropped to UU; it's a freaking Psuedolegendary.

Being a pseudo legendary doesn't automatically make something good. Metagross, who is also a pseudo legend, dropped to UU this gen despite being solidly OU since it was introduced because of Steel losing resistance to Ghost and Dark (which I still think was a dumb move on Game Freak's part). Haxorus and Hydreigon are stuck in BL because of their frailty and Fairies (Hydreigon also wishes it had Nasty Plot). I think Goodra's problem is its lack of good recovery and that pure Dragon typing is really meh. If it had Recover or something, it would make a great special wall. It could also use a little bit more power too.

And hell, being legendary doesn't make a Pokemon automatically good either: see Articuno, Regigigas, etc.

Quote:

I would like to start a new discussion, on Protean Greninjas. I think this pokemon is pretty damn cheap and annoying, but Im just wondering what you guys think on it. Although, I am mostly an NU player, so this doesnt affect me too much, but when I do venture into OU, I should either be prepared to use a Greninja or face off against one.
Eh, Greninja's hardly the worst thing out there. I find Talonflame and Aegislash to be more of a pain in the ass. With Greninja you can just use a special wall or a Choice Scarf user. Not saying Greninja isn't a threat. I think people just really like it because Protean is a cool ability and we finally have a good Water starter besides Blastoise.

And ninjas are awesome.

Hikamaru July 7th, 2014 7:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8333812)
Being a pseudo legendary doesn't automatically make something good. Metagross, who is also a pseudo legend, dropped to UU this gen despite being solidly OU since it was introduced because of Steel losing resistance to Ghost and Dark (which I still think was a dumb move on Game Freak's part). Haxorus and Hydreigon are stuck in BL because of their frailty and Fairies (Hydreigon also wishes it had Nasty Plot). I think Goodra's problem is its lack of good recovery and that pure Dragon typing is really meh. If it had Recover or something, it would make a great special wall. It could also use a little bit more power too.

And hell, being legendary doesn't make a Pokemon automatically good either: see Articuno, Regigigas, etc.

He's right, being a legendary or pseudo-legendary doesn't always mean you'll be guaranteed as a higher tier Pokemon, and of course there are flaws with these guys that 6th Gen caused for them due to the aforementioned changes.

Haxorus and Hydreigon struggle very badly against Fairy-types if they don't have the right coverage move equipped plus they're fairly frail against them thanks to the former's weak Sp. Defense and the latter's nasty 4x weakness to Fairy moves, meaning one of those lil cuties pretty much spells easy death for the tri-headed dragon. Gardevoir, Azumarill, Sylveon, Clefable and Togekiss run rampant and they have the power and stats to back them up.

If Goodra had a little more in its offensive stats it would have been higher up, but yeah it's the lack of recovery that brings it down because in most situations because Rest is not really considered "reliable". I found it weird how something based around slime and goo couldn't learn Recover, but still the Assault Vest makes it quite the wall, and Gooey can make physical attackers think twice.

As for Metagross... this shows just how much the loss of Steel-type's resistance to Dark and Ghost brought down such a powerful beast, and it was made even worse by the fact that Meteor Mash got weakened in base power meaning it's not as reliable as it was previously. However, this was a blessing to Bisharp, who still remains the sole Steel-type to resist both Dark and Ghost. I found this nerfing just as much of an impact than the Fairy-type.

Over the generations we can really see once previous beasts now becoming so bad in the standard game, Articuno was quite a powerful Ice-type back in 1st Gen days but the introduction of Stealth Rock really made the icy bird fall from his former glory. Or how amazing of a wall Snorlax was in the early generations but then the dominance of Fighting-types just meant he couldn't survive in an environment full of these brutes.

And given the new Megas we'll be seeing in Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire I'm imagining even more changes when those games come out, I know for sure Wash Rotom may have to run Hidden Power Ice due to Mega Sceptile heavily resisting its STAB moves. It's like the day we saw Scizor really get his claim to fame when Platinum gifted him with Bullet Punch.

And as said by Tamashii Hiroka herself in one of her videos (Top 5 Worst Legendaries) being Legendary doesn't always mean Uber.

srinator July 7th, 2014 7:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8333812)
Steel losing resistance to Ghost and Dark (which I still think was a dumb move on Game Freak's part).

Think about how op aegi would be if not for the steel nerf but yeah jirachi,Bronzong,meta all have suffered ... Bad :(

Braxien July 10th, 2014 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8335201)
Think about how op aegi would be if not for the steel nerf but yeah jirachi,Bronzong,meta all have suffered ... Bad :(

I have to agree with Sri. Any team with Pokémon such as Jirachi are now suffering badly. Teams with Pokémon like that used to be a pain in the bottom (yes, I said bottom!), but now ... these changes have caused them to decrease in their 'pain in the bottom'-ness, causing a lot of Competitve Teams to collapse, in my opinion.

Hikamaru July 12th, 2014 2:37 AM

Figured I'd bump this up because another batch of details from CoroCoro has revealed Mega Diancie's ability to be Magic Bounce. What's everyone's thought on this?

In my opinion, I feel like we're getting too many Megas with that ability but at least it's nothing lackluster. Aside from that, I am still expecting a boost to her special stats when she goes Mega but I'll be happy with whatever stat boost they go with.

Pendraflare July 12th, 2014 3:58 AM

Since most Fairy-types are special oriented, I would expect them to boost it there.

Or they might make it even slower and give it a boost to all its other stats maybe? It's clearly meant to be a tank, so i'm expecting them to give the Defenses a bigger boost.

PlatinumDude July 12th, 2014 5:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikamaru (Post 8344740)
Figured I'd bump this up because another batch of details from CoroCoro has revealed Mega Diancie's ability to be Magic Bounce. What's everyone's thought on this?

In my opinion, I feel like we're getting too many Megas with that ability but at least it's nothing lackluster. Aside from that, I am still expecting a boost to her special stats when she goes Mega but I'll be happy with whatever stat boost they go with.

Isn't having Mega Sableye and Mega Absol having Magic Bounce enough? In all seriousness, I think Magic Bounce does give Diancie a bit of a reason to be used, since the other Magic Bouncers in Xatu, Espeon and Mega Absol are rather frail. According to the scan, Mega Diancie also has significantly increased Speed. (by 50? 40? idk) Either way, Mega Diancie could make use of the Speed boost with Rock Polish.

Anti July 12th, 2014 7:21 AM

I don't know if Diancie will be good but anything that is even remotely helpful with birdspam (Talonflame in particular) is cool with me

Nah July 12th, 2014 7:59 AM

Mega Diancie's getting a speed increase? How the hell does that work when she's got that huge rock attached to her? I have to wonder though how (or if) she'll impact the meta; while Fairy/Rock is horribly weak to Steel, its a useful defensive typing otherwise, especially with Magic Bounce.

Now if Game Freak would just nerf Stealth Rocks....

Zeffy July 12th, 2014 8:55 AM

I'd like to see Knock Off nerfed first, to be honest.

srinator July 12th, 2014 10:00 AM

How do u nerf knock off? Reduce bp? I mean only gf can do that, .....right?

Nah July 12th, 2014 11:41 AM

Btw, Diancie was released in Japan today, so we can use it on Showdown now. Just regular Diancie though, not the mega form.

Hikamaru July 12th, 2014 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8345374)
Btw, Diancie was released in Japan today, so we can use it on Showdown now. Just regular Diancie though, not the mega form.

At least this can now give competitive players a chance to see how it fares in the metagame. Remember that not every Legendary is guaranteed a spot in the Ubers tier so if Diancie ends up being classed lower than Ubers then that could signify a flaw with it that couldn't stand up to Ubers. The 4x Steel weakness is the biggest nightmare for this cutie obviously, but it's still quite bulky with good defensive stats.

Still, I wonder what the outcome will be.

srinator July 12th, 2014 12:06 PM

Eh I feel it's going to drop to uu tbh. Other than cm diamond and moon last I don't see anything going for it. I may be wrong but the 4x weakness p destroys it since scizor ohko's with bullet punch. It's move pool seems a bit shallow too :/ tho cm rest set might see some usage

Hikamaru July 12th, 2014 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8345405)
Eh I feel it's going to drop to uu tbh. Other than cm diamond and moon last I don't see anything going for it. I may be wrong but the 4x weakness p destroys it since scizor ohko's with bullet punch. It's move pool seems a bit shallow too :/ tho cm rest set might see some usage

I can see where you're going here, Scizor are often running rampant with Bullet Punch but I'm sure Calm Mind sets will definitely make it a powerful special attacker. Diancie also has solid defenses fitting for the role of a bulky special-attacking tank. When the Mega gets released, I want to see where that ends up eventually and see if it does benefit it any better.

Espeon and Mega Absol are frail, while even though Xatu's defenses are slightly better they are still mediocre, plus Mega Sableye will probably be defensively good enough to also use the ability well (Sableye gets a boost to Defense and Sp. Attack, but I'm assuming Sp. Defense will get boosted close behind as well) but I think in the long run Diancie has a much worse defensive typing than Sableye because she's weak to Grass, Water, Ground and also that nasty one to Steel while Sableye only has to worry about Fairy moves.

But still, it'll be a close call. I think Mega Diancie running Calm Mind will potentially be quite deadly once OR/AS comes in, given that Magic Bounce means those who rely on status moves are going to struggle since they can't do much to it with their strategy alone.

Mercurybro July 12th, 2014 5:45 PM

To interrupt daily chitchat, we are hosting a gym/E4 challenge arena in the Battle Arena room. The gym leaders/E4 have OU tier level monotype teams so you're welcome to challenge any of us and it will be recorded.

We're also looking for 2 more gym leaders. The following types are available:
Grass
Water
Rock
Ice
Fighting
Poison
Bug

Please come by our Battle Arena room on PC's showdown server to ask any questions. If you ask me anything you'll have to beat me before you get an answer. :>

Zeffy July 12th, 2014 6:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8345247)
How do u nerf knock off? Reduce bp? I mean only gf can do that, .....right?

Yes. The power increase was very unnecessary and made the move very spammable without any consequences :(

Anti July 14th, 2014 12:18 AM

So I battled alternating caps Deniś[ssss] earlier.

Into the brave new world of one BP user per team he has dared step, but like a desperate man who fails to take hints like his ex-wife divorcing him and moving to Kyrgyzstan as evidence that she doesn't want to see him anymore in any capacity, Deniś[ssss] is still attempting to run something resembling a Baton Pass team despite numerous subtle actions pushing him to stop, like the complete dismantling of his pet playstyle.

I admire the man's fortitude. He should also trying running a real team/strategy, but for now, I admire his never say die attitude. NEVER GIVE IN

Hikamaru July 14th, 2014 6:40 AM

Okay, updates on Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross.

Mega Diancie gains a huge boost to Speed, but also gains boosts to Attack and Sp. Attack at the cost of losing a bit of Defense and Sp. Defense. It of course has the aforementioned Magic Bounce ability. Kinda interesting how it goes from something slow and bulky to a speedy attacker, can't wait to see how that will have an impact on it competitively.

As for Mega Metagross, it gains boosts in all of its stats, but especially Speed. It's also been confirmed to have the Tough Claws ability. Pretty nice to see boosts in all of the stats there, and while I do think Tough Claws has been a bit overused on Megas, given the ability was already used on two other Megas I do think it can help Metagross a lot given how much it suffered in the generation shift.

Thoughts?

PlatinumDude July 14th, 2014 6:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikamaru (Post 8348681)
Okay, updates on Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross.

Mega Diancie gains a huge boost to Speed, but also gains boosts to Attack and Sp. Attack at the cost of losing a bit of Defense and Sp. Defense. It of course has the aforementioned Magic Bounce ability. Kinda interesting how it goes from something slow and bulky to a speedy attacker, can't wait to see how that will have an impact on it competitively.

As for Mega Metagross, it gains boosts in all of its stats, but especially Speed. It's also been confirmed to have the Tough Claws ability. Pretty nice to see boosts in all of the stats there, and while I do think Tough Claws has been a bit overused on Megas, given the ability was already used on two other Megas already I do think it can help Metagross a lot given how much it suffered in the generation shift.

Thoughts?

I feel that Agiligross could make a comeback this gen. Mega Ampharos got away with Agility, despite the reduced Speed, so why not Metagross (assuming its Speed decreased or remained relatively the same)? The power boost to its contact moves is pretty much appreciated, considering that its STABs, Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, are also contact moves. The elemental punches, Hammer Arm and Pursuit also got buffed up:
-Agility
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake/Zen Headbutt
-Ice Punch/Thunder Punch/Zen Headbutt
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Item: Metagrossite (if that's the name of Metagross' Mega Stone)
Ability: Clear Body

Edit: Okay, just realized that Megagross' Speed is buffed significantly, so it won't need Agility, though it's still useful for outspeeding other Scarfers. All-out attacking sets are easier to use with the increased Speed, as well as Stealth Rock:
-Stealth Rock
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake/Zen Headbutt
-Bullet Punch/Ice Punch/Zen Headbutt
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Item: Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body

or
-Meteor Mash
-Zen Headbutt
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch/Pursuit
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Item: Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body

Oh and mixed Rock Polish Mega Diancie seems tempting. The loss of bulk kinda sucks with those common weaknesses, though.:
-Rock Polish
-Moonblast
-Diamond Storm
-Hidden Power (Fire/Ground)
Nature: Hasty/Naive/Rash/Mild
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Diancite (assuming that's the name of the Mega Stone)

Vrai July 15th, 2014 1:30 PM

idk the best place to put this, but metronome randbats allows mega banette (which was running taunt / knock off / sucker / other) and it's brokedy pls fix :_:

Dark Azelf July 15th, 2014 2:46 PM

Metagross problem even with a mega unless they give it some asinine ability and moves is it inherently still sucks monkey balls at everything lol.

SnowpointQuincy July 15th, 2014 6:25 PM

Any thoughts on Special Battle Season 5? 6v6 No Items. Haven't had a chance to play this one yet.

Anti July 16th, 2014 8:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8351787)
Metagross problem even with a mega unless they give it some asinine ability and moves is it inherently still sucks monkey balls at everything lol.

It has Tough Claws, I think? It will undoubtedly be superior to regular Metagross. AgiliGross will always be inherently *dangerous* because it can easily take any priority attack and outspeeds any relevant threat. IDK about anything else though.

BeachBoy July 16th, 2014 9:01 AM

While I've seen above about the stat boost, have they been explicitly announced (as in, do we know how much they are increasing?) If so, I wonder how many 2HKOs Tough Claws and that attack stat boost will turn things.

Man, another set of arms. Must be nice.


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