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Dark Azelf April 19th, 2014 5:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8203498)
Anecdotal evidence is not very compelling. Unless BP magically becomes competitive in the sense that the battle isn't determined 98% of the time by team matchup, I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!" (And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)

Isnt every match determined by team match up? Most teams/people suck vs stall. Stall also follows an algorithm the same as Baton Pass allegedly does i.e "uncompetitive". I (and some of the best stall players have said this too) literally go into auto pilot with stall lol. Id argue Baton Pass takes more skill because if they lead with something like Charizard-X turn one....oops gg you lose, you cant Iron Defense/Acid Armour pass and it runs through your whole team. Its not just Charizard X which does this. Also before you say, yes ive both used and battled top 20 ladder BP teams with stall, offense and my own BP. I won the majority of those matches. If you keep up offensive pressure and play smartly the matches are easy. With stall, if you dont run some sort of win condition i.e Curse/Perish Song/Taunt/Haze etc your team isnt very good and you lose to stuff like last poke/Clefable regardless.

Id actually point at the general skill of ladder players and their teambuilding abilities if BP is an issue. Its often been said the skill level of the ladder is generally poor, but i digress. Im not saying BP isnt a good play style, it is good...when it works, however it has some fundamental flaws which ive outlined. However the assumption it takes no skill is absolutely a ridiculous opinion and id argue whoever says this hasnt used it themselves. It does take skill, more than most playstyles. This isnt like Moody where the match turns into pot luck. It can be defeated with relative ease when you prepare for it (which ill talk about later). If you cant beat unboosted Pokemon from turn 1, id argue your team doesnt have much offensive prowess (or you simply dont prepare for stat boosters well enough, this applies in the case of defensive teams) and it will struggle against other teams archetypes too, especially those that lean defensively towards BO/Stall and will struggle to break them which as ive said is why most people suck against stall too. That or your team just presents far too many opportunities for free turns and set ups, again its not just Baton Pass that will make you pay for this.

Quote:

I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!
Its quite relevant when it OHKO's every Pokemon with access to Baton Pass and 2hko's even with a +1 SP.Def boost. There are alot of other Pokemon which do do the same not just Charizard-Y. Which brings me to this;

Quote:

And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)
The stigma against BP is a huge problem ive noticed, especially when looking at it from a rational standpoint, and the ragequits, forfeits, and un-willingness to change so that you can easily beat BP are also an issue.

Anti April 22nd, 2014 7:29 AM

Ah yes, the old "failure to adapt" argument. Should we unleash SwagPlay again because we were just too lazy to adapt by running Chansey/*insert SwagPlay "counter"*?

There's a reason BP is stigmatized. It's not really a competitive strategy--you're just not playing the game. The difference, in a nutshell, is that BP is playing the game tactically, while everything else is strategic. Stall is difficult for poor players to break too, but no one wants to ban Mega Venusaur or Chansey. Maybe there's something else going on here besides a failure to adapt?

The question you're answering is "Is BP broken?" I think that's the wrong question to ask. There is a precedent for banning things that aren't broken, as OHKO clause and evasion clause show us. (Unless you think Double Team is broken. But hey, maybe we should all just adapt and run No Guard Machamp or a Hazer.) The question to ask is "Are BP chains healthy for the metagame?" or "Are BP chains inherently uncompetitive?" Charizard-Y has nothing to do with these questions.

(Personally, I think a complex ban is the perfect answer--by nerfing chains but keeping BP as a move and as a more limited strategy around, it prevents boring, tactical, uncompetitive matches on the ladder while punishing people who don't adequately prepare for stat-uppers. If you disagree, fine, but "failure to adapt" is a lazy, elitist argument and you should know better. It's not just bad players who want this gone and you know it.)

Nah April 22nd, 2014 7:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8210169)
tactically, while everything else is strategic.

Why does this matter?

Quote:

The question to ask is "Are BP chains healthy for the metagame?" or "Are BP chains inherently uncompetitive?"
You may have to elaborate on what is "healthy" for the meta. I could argue that the weather-centric metagame was "unhealthy" last gen. Smogon never did much about that.

Quote:

Personally, I think a complex ban is the perfect answer--by nerfing chains but keeping BP as a move and as a more limited strategy around, it prevents boring, tactical, uncompetitive matches on the ladder while punishing people who don't adequately prepare for stat-uppers.
I agree with you on this. If Baton Pass must be banned, complex is the best. Though I don't get why people wouldn't prepare for stat boosters when they're so common....

Anti April 22nd, 2014 5:47 PM

The issue of subjectivity that you raise is important. It's up to every individual to determine that. The distinctions I make are personal, though I do feel like BP is more clear-cut than weather. Gen 5 was pretty terrible though.

In terms of your first question, I think the essence of competitive Pokemon is strategy, both in team building and in battle. BP is very rigid and unadaptable in terms of how it's played. While it can be played with varying degrees of skill, it does not engage the game the same way that every other playstyle does. It's very frustrating that people try to win games like that, and I personally don't think it's healthy regardless of whether or not it can be easily dealt with. (Though I will reiterate that if it were so easy, people probably wouldn't care. But when ban opponents start throwing out Roar Mega Gyarados as a counter because its Roar bypasses Mr. Mime's Soundproof, maybe that's your first hint it's not so easily disposed of...)

So I suppose it's just a matter of taste. I don't see how the game would be negatively impacted in any way if chains were nerfed.

sword May 4th, 2014 11:03 PM

Someone please tell me what is the best team to deafet the elite four of pokemon fire red?

srinator May 4th, 2014 11:46 PM

hmm, in game team is all about the pokemon level lol, i have only played fire red so who knows, level 100 charizard was enough :P

Dark Azelf May 5th, 2014 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sword (Post 8231903)
Someone please tell me what is the best team to deafet the elite four of pokemon fire red?


Nah man, level 98 Mewtwo is the best team. No Suhttp://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/c/c8/Dream_Hyper_Potion_Sprite.pngper Potions.

That is all.

SnowpointQuincy May 12th, 2014 8:11 AM

When XY was released, there was a Kalos Dex Only season of Special Battle. Do you think there will be a Season of Special Battle limited to the Hoenn Pokedex?

Half of all megas are listed in the Hoenn dex, so there would be plenty to choose from. Kalos mons would be cut out, but it would only be for a few months of special battle.

I think that might be a Possibility in the month following the release date. It would shake up the meta game by removing the top Mons like Ageis, Talon, Garchomp. Giving Hoenn Pokemon a chance to see how is on top.... Resulting in Salamence all the way down.

Nah May 12th, 2014 8:22 AM

I could definitely see them doing that for ORAS, especially with all the hype for it. It would certainly make things a little different, though it depends on what pokes are included in the Hoenn dex this time around. It's possible that they'll expand it to include more Pokemon.....but then maybe Talonflames will suddenly appear in Hoenn.

Pokedra May 13th, 2014 5:06 AM

So anyone care to give me a rundown on how the meta is looking?

Although I gotta say, Kyurem not even being good enough for UU anymore. Poooower creep.

Anti May 13th, 2014 10:16 AM

Do you mean the OU or UU metagame?

Nah May 13th, 2014 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 8248337)
Although I gotta say, Kyurem not even being good enough for UU anymore. Poooower creep.

Huh? Kyurem's still good enough for UU. You just can't use BlizzSpam anymore.....

Pokedra May 13th, 2014 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8248749)
Do you mean the OU or UU metagame?

OU I guess.

Although UU looks pretty good.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8248752)
Huh? Kyurem's still good enough for UU. You just can't use BlizzSpam anymore.....

Generally I found in Gen V, BL2 Pokemon to be usable for UU but still a sub-par pick most of the time. Hence why they aren't UU ^^

Anti May 14th, 2014 12:36 PM

OU is pretty chill, nice and balanced. Stall works, offense, balance works, rain works, Baton Pass is still around for now, etc. Some thoughts:

- Stall is good but is very easy to counter-team. You know you'll be seeing Chansey. Any stall worth anything has Quagsire or Clefable too. Mega Venusaur or Amoonguss will be there. Skarmory is common. It's just not that hard to construct an offensive team that can wear down the real heavy lifters defensively, especially since Venusaur and Chansey don't have Leftovers recovery (and many Skarmory use Rocky Helmet...) which just makes life easier. Honestly, I only ever lose to stall when I really botch the execution, but it's probably the most consistent win for me. And I run ScarfChomp and Ferrothorn on my team.

- Slow sweepers just aren't worth it. Too many fast Pokemon and too much priority. Why would you use, say, Manaphy when you can use Greninja and hit faster with more coverage and immediate power? It's not like the added bulk is really doing much for you when you're contended with Thundurus, Landorus, Speed-tying Charizard, etc. The lone exception is Landorus because it murders stall, but he's more of a breaker than a sweeper (unless you're using the inferior Calm Mind variant), but even he is bad against offense since Ground STAB is pretty bad.

- Clefable is an awesome Pokemon. Ditto for Aegislash, who I suspect will eventually get suspect tested. Great defensive typing and stats to come in easily? Check. Diverse movesets despite a fairly limited pool of usable moves? Check. Best offensive STAB in the game? Check. It can just do anything. I've destroyed so many Bisharp with fast Aeg when they expect a switch and Pursuit or Knock Off--I've only been Sucker Punched once. It's such an amazing breaker and the only one I've used that often just flat-out sweeps. Probably the most consistently amazing Pokemon I've ever used, and he sucks to face too.

- The metagame balances itself out remarkably well. For as many top-tier threats as there are, I never feel particularly overwhelmed trying to cover everything. DeoSharp is a pain but can be pretty easily counterteamed itself and it helps that many of its users don't know what they're doing.

- Scald is the worst thing ever.

- So is Baton Pass.

- And let's not forget Ice Fang missing. :(

MoxieInfinite May 21st, 2014 2:58 PM

Offense in general dominates OU, stall is not near as good as it used to be (in ADV it did very well).

Hikamaru June 4th, 2014 10:58 PM

So, apparently the latest tiering news was released and it's quite a hard one:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/

Some notable once-shining stars of OU - Alakazam, Volcarona, Blissey, Lucario and Infernape finally fell from grace, dropping from OU into UU. Now people who are new to the metagame will probably be calling Blissey "mediocre" due to the latest changes. I bet they just couldn't survive the onslaught of Wash Rotom and Aegislash (aka the new top OU stars).

So how is everyone reacting to these changes?

Zeffy June 4th, 2014 11:34 PM

These changes aren't really anything major if we're talking about OU. Things are different in UU, however, because Volcarona and maybe Lucario wrecks almost everything in there.

Nah June 5th, 2014 5:04 AM

I was kinda expecting Alakazam and Volcarona to drop to UU, but not Lucario and Blissey. Not sure how something with an Ubers Mega Evolution dropped to UU, and Blissey still seems like OU material to me.

...And now half of my 1st OU team is now classified as UU. It has Hydreigon, Volcarona, Mega Aggron, Togekiss, Gastrodon, and Excadrill in it. Still gonna use them in OU anyway lol.

But what I'm really waiting for is the results of the suspect test on full Baton Pass teams.

PlatinumDude June 5th, 2014 1:08 PM

I'm actually surprised that Manectric, Gardevoir, Medicham and Scolipede secured solid OU status; I expected them to stay in BL, tbh.

As for Infernape, Volcarona and Blissey falling to UU...that's a surprise. I still think they're viable in OU, though.

Zeffy June 5th, 2014 6:22 PM

It's very likely that Lucario and Volcarona will move up into BL in the next week or so. Blissey, however, is outclassed by Chansey in terms of usefulness in OU imo. The only advantages that Blissey has over Chansey are better attacking stats and not susceptible to Knock Off.

I do like how UU is looking right now, though. It's like another DPP OU lol

Hikamaru June 5th, 2014 6:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8287119)
I'm actually surprised that Manectric, Gardevoir, Medicham and Scolipede secured solid OU status; I expected them to stay in BL, tbh.

As for Infernape, Volcarona and Blissey falling to UU...that's a surprise. I still think they're viable in OU, though.

When Scolipede got Speed Boost, I was pretty certain he was going to shoot up to OU and it seems like I was right. Medicham I guess managed to make it because its Mega gains a solid boost to its Speed (Mega Medicham has 100 base Speed, which is pretty common in OU) along with still having the strength thanks to Pure Power.

Not sure about Gardevoir, but I guess it's to do with Megas again given how powerful those Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voices can get, as already proven with Sylveon. Mega Gardevoir's pretty high Sp. Attack makes those Hyper Voices really hurt, I know she'll struggle against Steels but Focus Blast handles them, and Shadow Ball can get past Aegislash at times. I know Aegislash will be the main threat because it has an advantage on both of Gardy's types. Still, interesting decision on Smogon's part.

Manectric was kinda surprising, because I remember when Jolteon used to outclass it but now with Mega Manectric in play it's the other way around. Despite having the weakest stat total of all the Megas, I guess the reason Manectric made it was due to its Speed, strong special attacking prowess and Intimidate which softens physical hits slightly. I think it's the one I'm really questioned about but I'll see how well it performs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8287443)
It's very likely that Lucario and Volcarona will move up into BL in the next week or so. Blissey, however, is outclassed by Chansey in terms of usefulness in OU imo. The only advantages that Blissey has over Chansey are better attacking stats and not susceptible to Knock Off.

I do like how UU is looking right now, though. It's like another DPP OU lol

I was also suspecting the reason Blissey fell was due to Eviolite Chansey outclassing it, but yeah it's still a rare case that a Pokemon is somehow in a lower tier than its pre-evo. Lucario I think could make it into BL because it still has the power behind its moves, and there's still the Baton Pass suspect testing that will be going on in OU and the results of that could see even more changes to come.

Anti June 5th, 2014 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8287119)
I'm actually surprised that Manectric, Gardevoir, Medicham and Scolipede secured solid OU status; I expected them to stay in BL, tbh.

As for Infernape, Volcarona and Blissey falling to UU...that's a surprise. I still think they're viable in OU, though.

To this (and the above poster), Mega Manectric is quite good--Intimidate is wonderful, and its combination of power and speed mixed with the momentum grabbing prowess of Volt Switch make it a fantastic choice on most offense teams. Its only real problems are that it struggles against stall and takes up the mega slot, but it's definitely OU material. (And Scolipede is a staple on BP which litters much of the upper ladder and will soon get nerfed, so...yeah.)

Blissey is almost entirely outclassed by Chansey. I love when my opponents use Blissey instead because it's so much easier to break. Even the Knock Off thing Zeffy brought up is somewhat silly, as Blissey hates losing its Leftovers, and more importantly, it hates taking a strong physical attack and might as well not be there if it's going to be taking Knock Offs. Pokemon that use Knock Off are diverse, but Bisharp creams both of them, Ferrothorn can Leech Seed, Landorus-T can set up on either and has massive Attack, and...yeah, Blissey sucks lol.

Lucario is terrible in OU in my experience playing against it. It's never a threat, and it's not like my team is particularly well-prepared for it. It's just too difficult to set up despite its Steel typing. It could be good in UU though, but I don't know anything about that metagame.

Volcarona is a major threat in OU, but Stealth Rock :(

I agree though that Medicham is somewhat surprising--it's a nuke. Still tough to get in, but double switching exists and it's just fast enough to be a pain. I bet better physical megas contributed to low usage, with mega Gyarados, Charizard-X, Mawile, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Pinsir all being huge threats that are in a different class than Medicham.

Hikamaru June 6th, 2014 2:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8287631)
To this (and the above poster), Mega Manectric is quite good--Intimidate is wonderful, and its combination of power and speed mixed with the momentum grabbing prowess of Volt Switch make it a fantastic choice on most offense teams. Its only real problems are that it struggles against stall and takes up the mega slot, but it's definitely OU material.

I do have to agree Mega Manectric is really good, I remember every time I was pitted against one I always had problems taking it down due to its speed and power, along with Intimidate weakening any physical attacker I plan to use against it. And of course it can scout with Volt Switch, which means if you can't outrun it it'll most likely be passing over to a teammate that can deal with its foe. It really does deserve its spot in OU, even if it has the shallowest movepool of the Megas, it still has its niches.

Nah June 6th, 2014 3:26 PM

I think the surprise about Gardevoir and Manectric being in OU is more that the regular forms are in OU. Their megas are obviously OU worthy, but maybe not so much regular Gardevoir and Manectric.

PlatinumDude June 7th, 2014 8:05 AM

Mega Sceptile and Mega Swampert have been leaked in Corocoro. Mega Sceptile is Grass/Dragon and has Lightning Rod as an ability. Mega Swampert retains the Water/Ground type and has Swift Swim. Mega Diancie has been revealed too, but we don't know anything else about it.

Personally, I think that Lightning Rod is rather underwhelming for Mega Sceptile, considering that it would 4x resist Electric without it. Switching in to Thunder Waves is neat, though. I'm also glad that Mega Swampert got Swift Swim not only in terms of Dex entries (in its Emerald Dex entry, regular Swampert swims as fast as a jet ski), but because of usefulness: it finally can compensate for its low Speed outside of Choice Scarf, but only in rain.

What stat increases do you think these Mega forms will get? (assuming speculation isn't allowed in this thread)


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