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Anti June 7th, 2014 9:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8288382)
I think the surprise about Gardevoir and Manectric being in OU is more that the regular forms are in OU. Their megas are obviously OU worthy, but maybe not so much regular Gardevoir and Manectric.

My understanding is that the tiers are based on usage, and since it's impossible to use a mega without first sending in its base form, things like normal Mawile are going to be OU. I'm sure you could use usage statistics to see how much each mega stone is used, but that could become a mathematical nightmare when determining cutoffs so I think Smogon is trying to keep it simple?

As for mega Hoenn starters, Swift Swim could be nice for Rain teams, and Ground typing is nice for stuff like Mega Manectric. Of course, it depends on his stats. Sceptile is intriguing but is still going to need a way to get through Steel-types--maybe Earthquake and HP Fire with its STABs if its stats are good enough. :) But Speed is always welcome.

Hikamaru June 7th, 2014 9:25 AM

Okay here's my thoughts on those new Hoenn starter Megas.

Mega Swampert may look ugly appearance-wise (but I guess that's just me) but Swift Swim seems like a sweet ability for it because not only did it sorta fit with one of Swampert's Pokedex entries but it will be handy to use on Rain-based teams (even if weather did get nerfed this generation) given the ability can allow it to overcome its low Speed in the rain. For stat boosts I'm expecting most likely Attack along with both its defenses, the huge fists also make me think it'll have slightly lower Speed than its non-Mega, sorta like what happened with Garchomp and Ampharos. And I think Anti's statement is onto something, it could become a potential good Mega Manectric counter, so I'd imagine those using Mega Manectric would have to run Hidden Power Grass just to avoid getting completely walled by it.

Still, I wonder if this will be the boost Swampert was wanting all along to become more viable competitively again, since its prowess was hurt a bit due to Ferrothorn's presence. Only time will tell. Thank god it didn't get Sap Sipper because that would have been nasty, given it would have had no weaknesses aside from Freeze-Dry in that case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8289416)
maybe Earthquake and HP Fire with its STABs if its stats are good enough.

Sceptile can already learn Earthquake through TM. But I do agree with Platinum's post, Mega Sceptile's ability is kinda not a good complement with its type combination because as he mentioned, the Grass/Dragon combination, not counting any abilities, has a 4x resistance to Electric attacks but it can be good for blocking Thunder Wave in some way. Given that Grass-types also have the immunity to spore/powder moves I realize it'll be very hard to successfully paralyze because Stun Spore won't work, and now also Thunder Wave (and other Electric moves) due to Lightning Rod. It seems like the ultimate wall to the best paralysis-inducing moves, since most of those moves are Electric-type. Although Mow Rotom has that same Stun Spore/Thunder Wave immunity combination (but that's due to its own typing in that case and not an ability) it's still worth mentioning. The only real way to land paralysis on Mega Sceptile iirc would be either from Tri Attack or a Thunder Wave that was used by something with Normalize (but we all know Delcatty sucks to begin with). Black Kyurem's Freeze Shock would work too but that 4x Ice weakness means it'll more likely get OHKO'd before even hoping for the paralysis side-effect. Oh, and there's also Glare but that gets shallow distribution because it's heavily associated with snakes.

I bet that'll really put a dent in the infamous SwagPlay Liepard sets which like to use increased-priority Thunder Waves (due to Prankster) to set up the Swagger. I'm probably seeing Mega Sceptile getting a slight boost to its Speed (because well it is fast and that seems like what they want to go for here) but I'm hoping they can give it an Attack boost high enough to be even with its Sp. Attack so that it can use its larger physical-based movepool better. Apparently Mega Sceptile's Grass/Dragon typing walls the STABs of Wash Rotom. Competitive play surely got flipped on its head once again.

Nah June 7th, 2014 12:36 PM

Apparently a few other Pokemon were moved around in UU and OU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/

Goodra is also in UU now, and Vaporeon, Quagsire, and Smeargle are now in OU.

I'm not surprised at Vaporeon being OU; its always been good for me. Little annoyed at Smeargle being in OU since I had a sorta Baton Pass team in UU with it. My other UU team also had Vaporeon in it, so its look like I'll have to adjust my teams now....

Oh, and apparently Jolteon has dropped to RU.

Dark Azelf June 10th, 2014 1:01 AM

I actually like the look of Mega Sceptile. Awesome resistances and t-wave immunity.

Also you guys are forgetting that Lightningrod is amazing. I mean, how good is 4x walling the satan of Pokemon: see Rotom-W STAB moves? Not only that but getting a sp.att boost AND blocking VOLT SWITCH? Yes please!

Grass move/Dragon move/Focus Blast/HP Fire or SD/Dragon Claw/Leaf Blade/filler probs EQ or some sort of garbage mixed set seems cool.

Megapert might be decent on rain teams with some strange ass Power Up Punch set lol. :/

Hikamaru June 10th, 2014 2:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8293826)
I actually like the look of Mega Sceptile. Awesome resistances and t-wave immunity.

Also you guys are forgetting that Lightningrod is amazing. I mean, how good is 4x walling the satan of Pokemon: see Rotom-W STAB moves? Not only that but getting a sp.att boost AND blocking VOLT SWITCH? Yes please!

Blocking Wash Rotom's common sets is definitely something amazing. Immunity to Thunder Wave (and Stun Spore too, so yeah gonna be very hard to paralyze) to protect its high Speed along with blocking Volt Switch is like really gonna stop those Wash Rotoms cold in their tracks. I think what Game Freak were doing here was to make it fast and ensure it remains fast, and given how common Thunder Wave is in the metagame it can really put a dent in those that rely on it as part of their strategy.

I'd imagine Wash Rotom having to start running Hidden Power Ice in its sets just to avoid getting completely walled while also taking advantage of its 4x Ice weakness.

PlatinumDude June 10th, 2014 12:01 PM

E3 officially revealed Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon. According to them, Primal Kyogre retains the original's pure Water type, while Primal Groudon becomes Ground/Fire. Primal Kyogre's Special Attack is increased, while Primal Groudon's Attack is increased. Their Drizzle and Drought abilities will also be enhanced in some way.

What does anyone think? I think that Groudon kind of suffered with its Primal form, considering that it's still weak to Water (4x weak), even when sunny weather is active.

Hikamaru June 10th, 2014 6:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8294594)
E3 officially revealed Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon. According to them, Primal Kyogre retains the original's pure Water type, while Primal Groudon becomes Ground/Fire. Primal Kyogre's Special Attack is increased, while Primal Groudon's Attack is increased. Their Drizzle and Drought abilities will also be enhanced in some way.

What does anyone think? I think that Groudon kind of suffered with its Primal form, considering that it's still weak to Water (4x weak), even when sunny weather is active.

Yeah I do admit Groudon really suffered, gaining a nasty 4x Water weakness given the Ground/Fire typing is shared with fellow Hoenn Pokemon Camerupt. I always had a gut feeling Kyogre would be the better of the two mascots and it's now becoming even more evident.

But still, can't wait to hear how Drought and Drizzle will be enhanced.

Zeffy June 10th, 2014 6:25 PM

Drizzle and Drought enhanced? Maybe they'll get a perpetual weather version? :O

Nah June 10th, 2014 7:13 PM

I really hope that Drought and Drizzle aren't re-upgraded to perma-weather again. Even though it'd only be restricted to Ubers, I'm really not up for a weather-centric meta. That was kinda annoying last gen.

Zeffy June 10th, 2014 7:52 PM

I don't think that'd happen. I was talking about them getting a new version of Drought and Drizzle--which makes sense since, alongside their legendary status, they are the first Pokemon discovered to have that ability. I really wouldn't mind either way.

Nah June 10th, 2014 7:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8295291)
I don't think that'd happen. I was talking about them getting a new version of Drought and Drizzle

What exactly would a new version of Drought/Drizzle be?

Zeffy June 10th, 2014 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner (Post 8295296)
What exactly would a new version of Drought/Drizzle be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8295172)
Drizzle and Drought enhanced? Maybe they'll get a perpetual weather version? :O

I'm just making an assumption. I'm more curious about "Ancient Devolution," to be honest. I've read that it's basically like a mega evolution.

PlatinumDude June 10th, 2014 10:44 PM

While we don't know exactly how the Primals' stats will be enhanced, I think that specially defensive Primal Groudon makes a decent Xerneas check. Assuming a decent increase in special bulk, Primal Groudon could act as a mixed wall of sorts. It still plays similarly to regular Groudon, but Primal Groudon fears Water moves more than ever. Its Fire moves are now stronger, since they gain STAB from Primal Groudon's Fire type and are potentially boosted by Sun.

PlatinumDude June 20th, 2014 7:24 AM

Updates on Mega Sableye: Its Defense and Special Attack get buffed, but its Speed suffers at the same time. It also gains the Magic Bounce ability.

I bet Special Defense will get increased a bit too, but the Speed drop is understandable, considering the huge gem Mega Sableye carries around. If Special Attack gets increased to a usable level, Mega Sableye won't have to rely on Foul Play for consistent damage (it's still useful against physical attackers, though), but at least it can use Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse more reliably now.

The question is, can Mega Sableye do Magic Bounce abuse better or just as well as Espeon, Xatu and Mega Absol?

Personally, I think that regular Sableye is still good thanks to Prankster letting it fire off quick status moves before getting hit, while its Mega form can screw around with opposing status with Magic Bounce. Whatever Sableye form to use will depend on the team or whether the Mega slot is taken up, though.

Hikamaru June 20th, 2014 7:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8309463)
Updates on Mega Sableye: Its Defense and Special Attack get buffed, but its Speed suffers at the same time. It also gains the Magic Bounce ability.

I bet Special Defense will get increased a bit too, but the Speed drop is understandable, considering the huge gem Mega Sableye carries around. If Special Attack gets increased to a usable level, Mega Sableye won't have to rely on Foul Play for consistent damage (it's still useful against physical attackers, though), but at least it can use Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse more reliably now.

The question is, can Mega Sableye do Magic Bounce abuse better or just as well as Espeon, Xatu and Mega Absol?

Personally, I think that regular Sableye is still good thanks to Prankster letting it fire off quick status moves before getting hit, while its Mega form can screw around with opposing status with Magic Bounce. Whatever Sableye form to use will depend on the team or whether the Mega slot is taken up, though.

Mega Sableye is quite interesting, I was expecting a boost to Defense and the lowered Speed which is fitting for the huge jewel it uses as a shield. Magic Bounce is of course a game changing ability when played right, it can disrupt strategies when timed correctly but I think Sableye can still do Prankster just as well, like you said it all depends on the team and what took up the Mega slot.

Can't wait to see how it will impact on the metagame once OR/AS comes out.

Nah June 20th, 2014 5:13 PM

It's kinda funny how Mega Sableye goes from wrecking people with its own priority status to wrecking people by reflecting status moves. I think that both forms will be usable, and which one you use depends on the team. The advantage that Mega Sableye has over the other Magic Bouncers is that its not weak to Dark or Fighting, and is generally bulkier than them.

PlatinumDude June 21st, 2014 7:34 AM

Just realized something: Calm Mind Mega Sableye is going to be dangerous, given that Magic Bounce means stall can't do much to it:
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
-Dazzling Gleam/Will-o-Wisp/Substitute
-Recover
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Sablite (if that's the name of the new Mega Stone)
Ability: Prankster

Anti June 22nd, 2014 4:10 PM

Hey folks, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D have both been suspected by Smogon.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-ou-suspect-testing-round-4-alienation-of-the-wretched.3509824/

So yeah, as someone down on the first page noted, it's funny how the Deoxys rodeo began in gen four and regardless of what you think of the test, they're probably getting banned...again. YOLO

(Even though I haven't seriously laddered in a few months and don't have a strong opinion either way for either suspect, I can't wait for the usual "failure to adapt" arguments as if broken things should stay in the metagame because people don't want to bend over backwards to beat them. lol.)

Dark Azelf June 24th, 2014 5:07 PM

You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

Anti June 24th, 2014 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8316143)
You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

Mega Gengar was insanely broken br0 let's be real #freereuniclus

I do think it's actually easier to get rid of hazards than people think though. I agree with that. Defiant is only so much of a deterrent. It's still pretty impossible to deny how great Deoxys is as a supporter. No opinion on Deo-S...my team was pretty overprepared for it sort of by accident, so its impact was usually limited when I laddered seriously. But I'm curious, does "these are bigger problems" translate to "Deoxys isn't a problem" br0?

Knock Off is a very tough sell. Many megas can "block" it and it's no more mindless than, say, DP(P) Draco/Outrage or...I hate to go there, but a move like Stealth Rock. It does a lot more damage to you over the course of the match and is even easier to abuse. It *is* the best move in the game, probably, soooo... (No, I'm not advocating for a ban or even test of Stealth Rock, but I wouldn't get carried away. And Dark is a good offensive type, but it's not Ghost or pre-gen6 Dragon.)

Aegislash's time is coming and it could very well get banned, mostly because its stats and typing both offensively and defensively are just out of this world. It has shades of DPP Latias--flexible, abusable STAB, useful resists, etc., and it's by no means unstoppable, but it's very consistently GREAT. That will be interesting.

(However, beyond that, I don't think anything is really approaching broken, though that could change with a new metagame. But Thundurus is too frail and vulnerable, Landorus too slow and reliant on a STAB that many great pokes are immune to, and Charizard just doesn't pass the eye test to me.)

champagnepapi June 24th, 2014 7:59 PM

Rechi's post in that thread sums it up basically. Defog makes hazard removal a lot easier but Deo-D guarantees SR with red card allowing it additional hazards or a t wave if he's lucky. Bisharp isn't an instant win if it gets a defog boost but at the least your opponent will have to sac something with sucker punch getting chip damage, or getting substantial chip damage on something like scarftar or terrakion on the switch, which can benefit you if you're a good team builder and the common checks to bisharp happen to wall your main sweeper. These 2 pokes alone force you into a disadvantage with ease and are more lethal the slower a team is. I agree with D-A that knock off is broken but I will go I to detail later. Landorus and Thund player hating post on its way as well

srinator June 26th, 2014 11:58 PM

Landorus -t is going to see a lot more usage in ubers tbh since groudon den becomes weak to eq, but the fire typing should help tank geoxern, idk about the spd at this point. If mega Kyogre gets better bulk it should also be able to take atleast one good hit from geoxern. Since ubers is basically a geoxern meta rn it's all that comes to my mind. But tbh Kyogre just seems to become more and more op. Gone are the days when groudon took advantage of weakened water attacks in sun, atleast it can take some ice beam locked kyogre's on :>

Oh well #optimism

HoneClaw June 28th, 2014 9:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8316143)
You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

I don't think Deo-D and Deo-S aren't malignancies upon the metagame, but I can't wait for the delicious Aegislash suspect sh*tstorm that will invariably happen.

Like Anti said, it's like DPP Latias. I think the arguments by smogon user Halcyon sum up my emotions:

Quote:

Nope, it's actually way more comparable to Genesect. Aegislash is most definitely deserving of a suspect at least. It's a Pokemon that alters the metagame like no other. Answer me this: why do Ttar and Mega Pinsir run Earthquake? Why does Lucario run Earthquake? Why does Scizor run Knock Off when it's an inferior option to Superpower? The answer is Aegislash.

It's an incredibly centralizing Pokemon. The entire tier revolves around it. Every team has to be stacked with ways of beating it, and even then it is still capable of destroying teams with support. It's got a multitude of sets and there is no one Pokemon that can counter it (which means it is capable of ♥♥♥♥ing stall). SubToxic, KS 3 attacks, speedy LO 3 attacks, LO SD 3 attacks. All these are viable threats that can defeat whatever option you have to beat it. It can go physical, special, or mixed. It can be slow and bulky or slightly faster than key threats (Bisharp) and super powerful. Not to mention all the 50/50s it creates with Kings Shield. Please tell me how this is not EXACTLY like Genesect? The only thing Genesect had that Aegislash doesn't is U-turn. It's the most restrictive Pokemon in the tier bar none. It is a monster with both 150/150 defenses and 150/150 offenses. How does this not scream "suspect worthy"?
Honestly, I'd just love to see the metagame without Aegislash. It'd be really interesting. I'm not saying I want it banned, but just that I think it'd be cool to experience the metagame without what is arguably its most defining Pokemon.

Although let's be honest, everyone knows that Landorus and Thundurus will be the next suspects.

champagnepapi June 29th, 2014 4:41 PM

I guess Aegislash is centralizing although I don't think the current situation is as bad as bw2 landorus keldeo breloom meta where the best pokemon all had the same counters and every team was those 3+ a tyranitar and a latios. I'm on the fence about aegis, I think kings shield is its most broken aspect since it can stop a sweep by forcing a predicton.

SuperEspeon July 6th, 2014 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8289752)
Apparently a few other Pokemon were moved around in UU and OU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/

Goodra is also in UU now, and Vaporeon, Quagsire, and Smeargle are now in OU.

I'm not surprised at Vaporeon being OU; its always been good for me. Little annoyed at Smeargle being in OU since I had a sorta Baton Pass team in UU with it. My other UU team also had Vaporeon in it, so its look like I'll have to adjust my teams now....

Oh, and apparently Jolteon has dropped to RU.

I was real surprised that Goodra got dropped to UU; it's a freaking Psuedolegendary.
Not alto surprised at Vaporeon, that beast has got bulk beyond belief.
Smeargle kind of surprised me, but I can see why its in OU now, its a pretty damn good baton passer/supporter.
Jolteon was given, as it's glory days are gone over. Kind of sad to see it go, as it was one of my favorite pokemon at one time. I can't remember the last time I've seen someone use it, so I guess this drop was rightfully so.

I would like to start a new discussion, on Protean Greninjas. I think this pokemon is pretty damn cheap and annoying, but Im just wondering what you guys think on it. Although, I am mostly an NU player, so this doesnt affect me too much, but when I do venture into OU, I should either be prepared to use a Greninja or face off against one.


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