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BettyNewbie January 2nd, 2015 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8561734)
Maybe they could put Unova's subway in Saffron post game? It does have a the Magnet Train in the Johto games so maybe have them be in the middle of adding a new line to Johto.

That'd be a great idea. It establishes a link with Unova (however small), and it foreshadows Gen 2. Perfect!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8561734)
Also they could add some Super Contests (that is Sinnoh style) and have Daisy participate in them as her FrLg fame checker called her a "star cordinator" or something along those lines. Maybe make her into a not a modest and not so peppy but still kind contest idol. So while her little brother conquers the battling world she conquers the world of contests. Maybe they could give her a Mega. I imagine her with Vileplume( or Bellossom if they give Vileplume to Erika again) due to her flower name. Maybe she could have a team of 5. Vileplume for Beauty or cuteness, Tangrowth for tough, Venusaur (her starter?!) for coolness, Paras for smart, and ...Victribell for beauty or even more oddly...cuteness depending on what Vileplume is. If they're add Johto mons then Sunflora should replace Paras and be the beauty, Victribell Smart, and Vileplume cute, Venusaur cool. Tangrowth stays the same.

That's an excellent idea, too. It'd be great to finally see some characterization for Daisy, and the Sunflora/Victreebel/Vileplume/Tangrowth/Venusaur team is perfect for her. (They could also give her Roserade, Whimsicott, Lilligant, and/or Florges (not a Grass type for whatever reason, but still a flower) in the postgame.)

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 2nd, 2015 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8561911)
That'd be a great idea. It establishes a link with Unova (however small), and it foreshadows Gen 2. Perfect!



That's an excellent idea, too. It'd be great to finally see some characterization for Daisy, and the Sunflora/Victreebel/Vileplume/Tangrowth/Venusaur team is perfect for her. (They could also give her Roserade, Whimsicott, Lilligant, and/or Florges (not a Grass type for whatever reason, but still a flower) in the postgame.)

Perhaps the Train twins were born in Kanto like how the sister's in the Maison were born in Hoenn.
I love that post game team. I also wanted to give her Roserade and Lilligant.

BettyNewbie January 3rd, 2015 1:06 PM

In another thread, I posted this as an idea for how a Gen 1 remake could redo the (lame) backstory FRLG attempted to give Lorelei and write her out of the E4 in a way that treats her with respect and gives her room to reappear in a future game:

Quote:

I want the games to establish her as a marine researcher, maybe out investigating Navel Rock (retconned into a place more like Seafoam/Whirl) with her close friend and Sevii's local professor, Philena Ivy (or someone heavily based on her) and her other close friend and fellow E4 member, Lance (who's always been fascinated by Lugia, a dragon-like Pokémon he heard stories about growing up in Blackthorn).

While there, they run into Archer, Ariana, Petrel, and Proton. They have stolen the Blue, Yellow, and Red Orbs in hopes of awakening Lugia (after placing them together on an altar at the very top of Navel Rock) and sending the ultimate message out to Giovanni (who vanished after disbanding Team Rocket).

The first Orb, the Red One, is at Mt. Ember (retconned into a dark, creepy volcano; Red Orb is roughly where the Ruby was in FRLG). At the end of the tunnel (and several Rocket Grunts) is Proton, who runs off and drops the Red Orb after you defeat him.

Just as you exit Mt. Ember, you run into Ivy, who has just received a Pokégear call from Lance; he's at the Rocket Warehouse on Chrono Island and ran into some trouble getting the Yellow Orb. You head there, beat some more Grunts (including Jessie and James, in their final appearance. More on that later...), and enter a back room to find Lance being cornered by Ariana and Petrel. Ariana mocks him, telling him "However strong you may be, you can't take both of us at the same time. Sorry, baby. Now get ready to be thrashed," and when she sees you barge in, she tells him something along the lines of "What? You had an accomplice? Where is your sense of honor?"

You and Lance fight Ariana and Proton in a tag battle, and after beating them, they run off to Navel Rock (where Lorelei and Archer are), but not before Petrel drops the Yellow Orb. Afterwards, Lance tells you that he had been snooping around and discovered Archer's plans to rebuild Team Rocket in Johto and create an evolution-inducing device; he snapped photos and made copies, planning to investigate this at a later date. He then, expresses concern for Lorelei and takes you back to Navel Rock (via flying on his Dragonite), where she, Archer, and the Blue Orb are located.

When you get there, Lorelei is arguing with Archer (who is implied to be her ex-boyfriend), who mocks her for being a "silly woman who doesn't know better," and she calls him a "selfish pig." In response, Archer slaps her, making her glasses fall to the ground, and Lance runs forward, threatening to unleash wrath on him if he sees him hit her again. Archer evilly laughs, accusing Lorelei of always needing her "boyfriend" to rescue her, and she calmly gets up, puts her glasses back on, and hits him right back. Lorelei tells him that she can rescue herself just fine, and she challenges him to a battle.

Archer dusts himself off and calls Proton over, telling Lorelei that she's going to have to fight the two of them at the same time. Lorelei grabs you and says "No problem." You and Lorelei get into a tag battle against Archer and Proton, after defeated, Archer hands over the Blue Orb and vows that this won't be the end of him or Team Rocket.

Once the Rockets leave, Lorelei tells you about the legend behind the Orbs, and their connection to Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres and Lugia. She says that the birds have been seen roaming Kanto ever since the Orbs went missing, explaining why they were at Seafoam/Power Plant/Victory Road instead of the smaller islands surrounding Navel Rock. She, then, points you in the direction of the altar, and you climb up there, placing the three Orbs together. One amazing cutscene later, you get into a battle with a L70 Lugia, and after you either capture or defeat it, Lorelei and Lance run up to you and express amazement at what they witnessed. They thank you for helping them save the day and return to the Indigo Plateau, unlocking the rematch Elite Four. (They will both have completely different dialog if you return to rebattle them.)

On certain days of the week (after completing the Lugia event), you can find Lorelei and Lance on certain days of the week training together in Navel Rock. They will challenge you to a double battle and after defeating them, Lorelei tells you that she is considering leaving the Elite Four sometime in the future. She feels that being there is limiting her potential as a trainer (which Lance agrees with, as she is seen defeating him as we arrive) and keeping her from her passion for research. We also learn that a new League is being established in the Sevii Islands, and they want Lorelei to head it as its Champion... Which is where she'll be when we revisit her story in the sequel (Gen 2) three years later.
It also serves as a postgame Lugia story that canonizes its link to Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres (with a few nods to Pokémon 2000, such as the Orbs and Navel Rock being retconned into a pseudo-Shamouti Island), as well as directly sets up the Team Rocket plot for the Gen 2 games (ie. the Lance and Ariana scene).

What do you think?

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 3rd, 2015 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8563434)
In another thread, I posted this as an idea for how a Gen 1 remake could redo the (lame) backstory FRLG attempted to give Lorelei and write her out of the E4 in a way that treats her with respect and gives her room to reappear in a future game:



It also serves as a postgame Lugia story that canonizes its link to Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres (with a few nods to Pokémon 2000, such as the Orbs and Navel Rock being retconned into a pseudo-Shamouti Island), as well as directly sets up the Team Rocket plot for the Gen 2 games (ie. the Lance and Ariana scene).

What do you think?

As I said by VM they'll need to change the orb names in english to avoid confusion with the Weather Trio orbs (though in Japanese it's fine as Groudon's is called the Crimson Orb, and Kyogre's the Indigo Orb.) Actually would perfer they make them feathers and/or bells to fit in with Lugia's Silver Wing and the bell they gave it in Ss. They could have the feathers when united have a similar power as the Silver Wing (but weaker seperately). Perhaps the orbs/feathers can be used as the bird trio's Mega stones (or perhaps they'll form Lugia's).

BettyNewbie January 3rd, 2015 8:54 PM

I prefer keeping them as Orbs, although they could easily be renamed Ice/Electric/Fire.

The birds' Mega Stones would be found in the trio of Islands surrounding Navel Rock. Also, the birds, themselves, would return to the islands (where they can be caught at L50) if you didn't catch/defeat them in Kanto before awakening Lugia.

I'd drop various hints to this storyline throughout the Kanto part of the game, especially around Seafoam/Power Plant/Victory Road.

ShyRayq January 4th, 2015 1:58 AM

I am in the camp that would prefer a break this year and a new game being revealed later this year/released next year.

A Red/Green re-remake for the 20th anniversary makes sense and I would love to see Kanto in 3D. But honestly I'd prefer if the storyline was altered, because after playing the more story-driven games from Gen V and VI, FireRed and LeafGreen just can't keep my attention.

Although, I can't think of how the plot could be reworked to include Mega Evolution and all that. Giovanni monopolising on Mega Stones? Or something more Pokemon-esque.

Indigo January 6th, 2015 8:36 PM

Please NO! Not to be rude, but we've been to Kanto soooooooooooooo much! It's getting old to me.

MtArgente January 6th, 2015 9:33 PM

No, we don't need to play in Kanto for the 5th time.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 9th, 2015 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShyRayq (Post 8564515)
I am in the camp that would prefer a break this year and a new game being revealed later this year/released next year.

A Red/Green re-remake for the 20th anniversary makes sense and I would love to see Kanto in 3D. But honestly I'd prefer if the storyline was altered, because after playing the more story-driven games from Gen V and VI, FireRed and LeafGreen just can't keep my attention.

Although, I can't think of how the plot could be reworked to include Mega Evolution and all that. Giovanni monopolising on Mega Stones? Or something more Pokemon-esque.

Perhaps Giovanni will seek out Mega items to make his organization more powerful. Also they could add in Ariana and Archer could appear in the Kanto story-line with their own Mega items. With Archer using Mega Houndoom and Ariana using either Mega Vileplume, or Mega Arbok. I bring up these two as they appear in FrLg at the Rocket Warehouse in the Sevii islands, or at least two executives with similar teams to theirs do. They could add the other two as well (Mega Weezing for both?). Perhaps they could have Giovanni plan an attack on Indigo Plateau to make himself the new Champion and thus head of the Kanto...and the Johto region, like how Ghetsis refers to N as (for the Unova region) during his call to free the Pokemon when N defeats Alder. His Four Generals could act as his version of the Elite 4. Perhaps replace Proton (maybe Normal with Mega Raticate as his ace?) and Petrel's (perhaps Dark? or Poison and Ariana Dark with Mega Honcrow as her ace) teams to other types while making Ariana a poison type (or Dark if Petrel is poison) specialist and Archer a fire type specialist.

ShyRayq January 9th, 2015 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8573844)
Perhaps Giovanni will seek out Mega items to make his organization more powerful. Also they could add in Ariana and Archer could appear in the Kanto story-line with their own Mega items. With Archer using Mega Houndoom and Ariana using either Mega Vileplume, or Mega Arbok. I bring up these two as they appear in FrLg at the Rocket Warehouse in the Sevii islands, or at least two executives with similar teams to theirs do. They could add the other two as well (Mega Weezing for both?). Perhaps they could have Giovanni plan an attack on Indigo Plateau to make himself the new Champion and thus head of the Kanto...and the Johto region, like how Ghetsis refers to N as (for the Unova region) during his call to free the Pokemon when N defeats Alder. His Four Generals could act as his version of the Elite 4. Perhaps replace Proton (maybe Normal with Mega Raticate as his ace?) and Petrel's (perhaps Dark? or Poison and Ariana Dark with Mega Honcrow as her ace) teams to other types while making Ariana a poison type (or Dark if Petrel is poison) specialist and Archer a fire type specialist.

That would actually be really cool. I mean, it would make Rocket more deadly/on par with teams like Plasma and Flare in terms of 'evil'? Or power. Something like that. Maybe incorporating Mega Mewtwo in there somewhere? And having a more in depth look into its history, with Blaine and Mr. Fuji.
Things like this would really enhance the plot of Kanto. Make it more in-depth and expanding on the characters. Like I said, I'd prefer something like this over the bland Rocket of R/B and FR/LG.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 24th, 2015 1:15 PM

If they remake Kanto again I'll like to see new areas added to the region. Perhaps a route north of Mt. Moon that can be accessed post game. It could have the Kalos mascots even.

BettyNewbie January 24th, 2015 3:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8592235)
If they remake Kanto again I'll like to see new areas added to the region. Perhaps a route north of Mt. Moon that can be accessed post game. It could have the Kalos mascots even.

The entire region should get an overhaul, if you ask me. The 3DS is capable of far more than the GB/C, GBA, and even, DS, so all of the cities and routes could stand to be expanded. With the right thinking, even Pallet Town could be redone to look more like this, this, or this. Imagine how a larger city like Celadon or Saffron could look!

And, of course, with the redesign would come new areas. Cinnabar should have an explorable volcano, and there should also be a new area added near the Power Plant where Magneton could evolve. I wouldn't mind seeing the underground tunnels between Cerulean/Vermillion and Celadon/Lavender fleshed out, too.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 24th, 2015 8:51 PM

Maybe they could bring back Underground Secret Bases and have them play a role in the tunnels?

Speaking the 3DS keep in mind that GF could even use the "New" 3DS which is more powerful than the 3DS so if done right they can do so much more.

Kanto is known for being very urban and modern (check out Bulbapedia's page, it's one of the few things they highlight about Kanto along with their scientific achievement) so making it's cities larger would make sense.
Also since every non-Kanto Electric gym leader likes messing with their city (Wattson redesigned Mauville, Volkner's gym caused the power outage, Elesa had a entire new building made for gym despite having one she could just have remodeled, and Citron like making inventions and uses the city's biggest attraction as a gym ) perhaps Lt. Surge will follow suit.
The old man's building could finally be completed in this new timeline! It could be a PWT even.

BettyNewbie January 29th, 2015 6:19 PM

Quoted from a post in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charizard Gr (Post 8599212)
I never said that we should stick with the original 151. It should be a remake with all Pokemon being obtainable. It's just that Rhyperior is already a beast and don't think that it deserves a Mega Evolution. It would be called Mega Magmar if Mega Evolution had been implemented in Gen IV. Same goes for Electivire, Dusknoir, Togekiss, Mamoswine, Lickilicky, Tangrowth, Yanmega, PorygonZ etc. I do not think these Pokemon deserve a Mega evolution. Giovanni could have a Rhyperior but as a secondary Pokemon, with the leading being his Mega Nidoqueen.

I agree that a remake with only the original being obtainable would be the same as building a wall without cement, not good.

Do you know what Smogon Tier Rhyperior is currently in? RU. In fact, out of the Pokémon you listed, only Togekiss and Mamoswine are OU. And, Porygon-Z is UU. The rest are all RU or lower.

No, Smogon isn't everything, but for better or worse, the "metagame" is a huge part of the franchise now, and their Tiers are a pretty good guide to what Pokémon are considered "good" or "bad." Something is not a "beast" if it's sitting in NU, RU, or even UU. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Looking at Rhyperior, what's the problem? First of all, its typing. Ground/Rock is well-known for being a horribad defensive typing, especially when paired with horribad Speed and Sp. Defense (as is the case with Rhyperior). Yes, Rhyperior has high HP and Solid Rock, but neither do much to help curb those nasty Water and Grass weaknesses, especially when its so easily outsped and most attacks of those types hit its weak Sp. Defense. (And, even its better Physical Defense does less than it should, thanks to the Ground/Fighting/Steel weaknesses, as well as attacks like Waterfall and Aqua Tail.)

And, speaking of Speed, that's also a pretty big issue. To be that slow with that awful of a typing doesn't do it many favors. Rock Polish only goes so far, and Trick Room support is very situational.

Basically, Rhyperior is something that should be strong and looks like it on paper... but doesn't exactly work out in practice. A Mega is exactly what it needs, and a Gen 1 remake would be the obvious place to give it one (as it evolves from a Gen 1 Pokémon).

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 29th, 2015 6:31 PM

I bet Mega Rhyperior would get the Aggron treatment or a better ability to get rid of it's 4x weaknesses (at least taking them down to 2x). Since Rhinos are herbivores they could give it Sap Sipper and get rid of one of those weakness ^_^.

BettyNewbie January 30th, 2015 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8599451)
I bet Mega Rhyperior would get the Aggron treatment or a better ability to get rid of it's 4x weaknesses (at least taking them down to 2x). Since Rhinos are herbivores they could give it Sap Sipper and get rid of one of those weakness ^_^.

The Aggron treatment is probably the most likely one. I think the Rhyhorn and Aron lines are meant to be pseudo-counterparts, both being three stage Rock type rhino/dinosaur Pokémon (although Rhyhorn didn't get its third stage until Gen 4), so it would be fitting for Mega Rhyperior to lose its Rock typing in the same way Mega Aggron did. (Most of Rhyperior's weaknesses come from its Rock typing, anyways.)

Then, they could, maybe, give it Sand Rush to patch up that Speed stat. Rhyperior has an incredible Attack stat and movepool, but it needs more Speed to really put it to use and pose a threat.

Cerberus87 January 30th, 2015 11:32 AM

Rhyperior can't shed its Rock typing because of its lore and the fact it boasts the strongest Rock type move, which is its signature move. If anything, it's the Ground type that would go. Rock is great offensively and benefits more from sandstorm than Ground. In fact, the boost from sandstorm is a big reason why Tyranitar is OU with all those weaknesses. With Assault Vest it becomes impervious to most Special attacks.

I do NOT want changes to Pokémon to be made because of the "metagame" but sadly that's what happening with the Mega Evolutions. Masuda loves the competitive scene and is catering to them now more than ever.

(fun fact, my two favorite Johto Pokémon are Houndoom and Tyranitar, but I can't ever use them together now since Houndoom's Mega Evolution clashes with Tyranitar's ability)

BettyNewbie January 30th, 2015 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8600369)
Rhyperior can't shed its Rock typing because of its lore and the fact it boasts the strongest Rock type move, which is its signature move. If anything, it's the Ground type that would go. Rock is great offensively and benefits more from sandstorm than Ground.

Then, maybe, they could ditch the Ground typing and give it Sand Stream (for the buffed Sp. Defense). Either way, it's not a "good" Pokémon as it currently is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8600369)
I do NOT want changes to Pokémon to be made because of the "metagame" but sadly that's what happening with the Mega Evolutions.

Unfortunately, that's just the harsh reality of Pokémon nowadays. GF now realizes that a significant and vocal portion of the fanbase cares more about competitive battling than the main story and only sees the games as an alternative to battle simulators, button-mashing through the story as quickly as possible to get straight to breeding and EV-training.

You can see it in how most of XY's biggest additions--Super Training, Horde Battles, Friend Safari, and even (to a lesser extent) Fairies and Megas--are of more benefit to competitive players than casuals, and how both the new Exp. Share and quick, watered-down story make button-mashing through the game as fast and easy as possible. The fact that XY literally have zero postgame besides competitive battling makes it all the more obvious.

RandomDSdevel January 30th, 2015 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8551675)
What about Glaceon and Sylveon?
Maybe instead they could have the rival ask the player questions and overtime how one answers adds up to one of the eeveelutions (sort of like in a character quiz). Could be other NPC's too like Oak.
Or maybe keep the three eeveelutions how it was in yellow but give them Megas. Both Diantha and Steven have them (while Cynthia has Mega Garchomp already set for her games remakes). Maybe give Dragonite it's Mega.

...

If you really think about it, the theory that the legendary beasts used to be either Eevee or its original three evolutions suggests that Vaporeon, Flareon, and Jolteon may already have Mega Evolutions!

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 30th, 2015 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8600394)
Then, maybe, they could ditch the Ground typing and give it Sand Stream (for the buffed Sp. Defense). Either way, it's not a "good" Pokémon as it currently is.



Unfortunately, that's just the harsh reality of Pokémon nowadays. GF now realizes that a significant and vocal portion of the fanbase cares more about competitive battling than the main story and only sees the games as an alternative to battle simulators, button-mashing through the story as quickly as possible to get straight to breeding and EV-training.

You can see it in how most of XY's biggest additions--Super Training, Horde Battles, Friend Safari, and even (to a lesser extent) Fairies and Megas--are of more benefit to competitive players than casuals, and how both the new Exp. Share and quick, watered-down story make button-mashing through the game as fast and easy as possible. The fact that XY literally have zero postgame besides competitive battling makes it all the more obvious.

Sadly that was also the case with ORAS post Delta Episode.

My issue with Rhyperior losing the Ground type and being Giovanni's possible ace is that the Mega won't match Giovanni's type as he's a Ground Specialist not a Rock specialist (and if they go the pure Rock route they might as well give Brock Mega Rhyperior).

BettyNewbie January 30th, 2015 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8600989)
My issue with Rhyperior losing the Ground type and being Giovanni's possible ace is that the Mega won't match Giovanni's type as he's a Ground Specialist not a Rock specialist (and if they go the pure Rock route they might as well give Brock Mega Rhyperior).

You realize that if this was a Yellow remake, he would have a Persian on his team, right?

I'm not overly strict about type specialists being strictly monotype, because otherwise, they'd be pretty boring and probably way weaker and easier than they should be. Yes, they should have mostly Pokémon of their type, but there's nothing wrong with them having other stuff when it fits them as characters.

(Would anyone seriously argue that Lance give up his Gyarados just because it's not a Dragon type? "Real" Dragon or not, Gyarados fits him way better than crap like Salamence and Garchomp, neither of which I ever want to see on his team again, IMO.)

Whether Ground/Rock, Ground, or Rock, Rhyperior is Giovanni's ace, and it fits him perfectly. Persian even fits him perfectly, despite not even being remotely connected to the Ground type. Besides, only its Mega wouldn't be Ground in this scenario.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 30th, 2015 11:52 PM

I actually hope they remove his Persian and give Giovanni something that evolves from a ground type at least, like say Tyranitar xD.

Also, how are Salamence and Garchomp 'crap'? Tier wise they're higher than Gyarados last I checked, plus have better looking megas (not like that they're much better as the megas of those three are quite bad...Giant Shrimp with warts Gyarados, Ufo Salamence, and Rocker Garchomp...).

Pendraflare January 31st, 2015 6:35 AM

You know, off topic to this discussion about Gym Leaders, but (and I already mentioned this in another thread but i'll post it here anyway) this was something I know happened with Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire so I guess it would be as good a time as any to contemplate it happening here, even though it might have been discussed earlier in the thread: the Hoenn remakes had NPCs stopping you and pointing you in the direction of the plot very often, much like Generation V and XY did. Given those, it's clear that Game Freak wants to make things as linear as possible, and since Kanto has been widely regarded as a not straightforward region at all, some people might get upset if they were to throw hints everywhere like ORAS did, particularly when the original games didn't.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 31st, 2015 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8601453)
You know, off topic to this discussion about Gym Leaders, but (and I already mentioned this in another thread but i'll post it here anyway) this was something I know happened with Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire so I guess it would be as good a time as any to contemplate it happening here, even though it might have been discussed earlier in the thread: the Hoenn remakes had NPCs stopping you and pointing you in the direction of the plot very often, much like Generation V and XY did. Given those, it's clear that Game Freak wants to make things as linear as possible, and since Kanto has been widely regarded as a not straightforward region at all, some people might get upset if they were to throw hints everywhere like ORAS did, particularly when the original games didn't.

That got very annoying as one went on...so such a thing being added to Kanto re-remakes would make the Tv from FrLg look nice in comparison as one could skip the Tutorials...

BettyNewbie January 31st, 2015 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8601217)
I actually hope they remove his Persian and give Giovanni something that evolves from a ground type at least, like say Tyranitar xD.

No, they shouldn't. Giovanni is not Giovanni without his Persian, especially in a Yellow remake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8601217)
Also, how are Salamence and Garchomp 'crap'? Tier wise they're higher than Gyarados last I checked, plus have better looking megas (not like that they're much better as the megas of those three are quite bad...Giant Shrimp with warts Gyarados, Ufo Salamence, and Rocker Garchomp...).

I hate Salamence and Garchomp. They're both ugly, cheap, and generic. They ruined the Dragon Type, IMO. I'd much rather see Dragalge or Noivern on Lance's (rematch) team. Even Serperior would be a better fit, "real" Dragon or not.

morrison January 31st, 2015 10:31 AM

urg dont remind me, that would be pretty horrible...

morrison January 31st, 2015 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8601669)
No, they shouldn't. Giovanni is not Giovanni without his Persian, especially in a Yellow remake.



I hate Salamence and Garchomp. They're both ugly, cheap, and generic. They ruined the Dragon Type, IMO. I'd much rather see Dragalge or Noivern on Lance's (rematch) team. Even Serperior would be a better fit, "real" Dragon or not.

I myself love salamence and garchomp. prefer them over dragonite anytime . Dragonite kinda looks like elliott.

BettyNewbie January 31st, 2015 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morrison (Post 8601678)
I myself love salamence and garchomp. prefer them over dragonite anytime . Dragonite kinda looks like elliott.

I think Dragonite is adorable and beautiful, myself. Heck, that whole family is. Dragonite's softer appearance, as well as friendly, helpful disposition, makes it a far more interesting and unique Pokémon than some generic "badass" like Salamence, Garchomp, and Haxorus, IMO.

None of those "badass" Dragons give off a mythical air like Dragonite does, which was what the Dragon type was supposed to be about in the beginning. It was the original "fairytale" type, or so to speak. (Now, all Dragonite needs is a Dragon/Fairy Mega to seal the deal and make things come full circle.)

morrison January 31st, 2015 11:03 AM

Hm I like dratini and dragonair but dragonite was never my type, Also how does a cool dragonair turn into a fat yellow green mini winged european style dragon. now if dragonair had an alternate evo into something like shenlongmon of digimon i would like it. ahem the names azulongmon of course.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 31st, 2015 11:43 AM

Hey Dragonite is cute...
Speaking of Dragons who did win the best Dragon type contest anyways?

I'll like for Gf to remake Yellow but to throw most of the anime references aside to make it more like the other games which weren't as impacted as much by extra canon material (Anime,Mangas, etc.) Now that I think about it the Kanto games have the most extra canon stuff, such as FrLg being the first to take Silver being Giovanni's son be canon (first appeared in the GSC arc of Special/Adventures), and before that there is Yellow and it's relationship with the anime.

BettyNewbie January 31st, 2015 5:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8601762)
I'll like for Gf to remake Yellow but to throw most of the anime references aside to make it more like the other games which weren't as impacted as much by extra canon material (Anime,Mangas, etc.) Now that I think about it the Kanto games have the most extra canon stuff, such as FrLg being the first to take Silver being Giovanni's son be canon (first appeared in the GSC arc of Special/Adventures), and before that there is Yellow and it's relationship with the anime.

Yellow without the anime references is... Red and Blue. Which is exactly what we got in FRLG, and not for the better, IMO.

Out of all the Gens, Gen 1 is the simplest, backstory-wise, so it doesn't surprise me that it's borrowed the most things from other canons. Love them or hate them, both the anime and Adventures fleshed out Kanto far more than the games did.

Plus, at the time Yellow came out, the anime and games were VERY intertwined, marketing-wise. Promotional material for the games often depicted Pokémon with their anime art, and Red/Blue and Ash/Gary were often treated as one-in-the-same (the fact that Ash and Gary so strongly resembled Red and Blue's original designs only helped this). The anime was, more or less, seen as an extension of the games rather than a separate universe.

This changed starting around Gen 3 and the end of Pokémania. Both Ash and Red got drastic redesigns that made them look more like separate characters, and Blue also got a drastic dye job that made him look a lot less like Gary. Many of the Gym Leaders and E4 Members also got redesigns in FRLG and (especially) HGSS that were drastic departures from their older designs (which most of the anime designs were based on... think Sabrina or the Johto Gym Leaders). It also became more common to see Pokémon depicted with game art instead of anime art (helped by the fact that Gen 3's game art was much higher quality than Gen 1 and 2's).

Of course, knowing this, that may lower the chances of Yellow being remade, but on the other hand, the early anime is still VERY nostalgic and iconic for a lot of older fans, so a brand new Yellow would be a real treat for many of them.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire January 31st, 2015 7:58 PM

^ On drastic changes between versions don't forget the latest remakes...Tabitha's difference between games make the Red's look identical in comparison (apperantly the Ultimate weapon has some relation to Tabitha being fat...and more character's having tans).

Actually Red's small change in FRLg then Sabrina's bigger change in HGSS then ORAS' more drastic departure should alarm fans for Kanto re-remakes (and Sinnoh remakes)...it's a pattern between remakes who know we may get a short or super tall James...and an older looking Giovanni or even a very sickly looking Giovanni...

So I heard this wacky rumor from a youtuber saying Yellow will be remade next year...but for the Wii U...wonder how that would work (there are equally wacky rumors about Gen VII and the Wii U too).

BettyNewbie February 1st, 2015 9:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8602319)
^ On drastic changes between versions don't forget the latest remakes...Tabitha's difference between games make the Red's look identical in comparison (apperantly the Ultimate weapon has some relation to Tabitha being fat...and more character's having tans).

Actually Red's small change in FRLg then Sabrina's bigger change in HGSS then ORAS' more drastic departure should alarm fans for Kanto re-remakes (and Sinnoh remakes)...it's a pattern between remakes who know we may get a short or super tall James...and an older looking Giovanni or even a very sickly looking Giovanni...

One thing I've noticed is that the characters who lacked full-body art in the original games tended to get the most drastic redesigns in remakes.

In FRLG, the Kanto Gym Leaders (and Lance, to a lesser extent) changed very little, while Lorelei, Bruno, and Agatha got drastic makeovers... Those three also happened to be the only NPCs who didn't have any official art in Gen 1 (outside of Stadium portraits, which depict drastically different designs than they had in FRLG; Lance, in comparison, is much more recognizable).

Even fewer characters had full-body art in GSC (for whatever reason), so HGSS brought more drastic redesigns. Eusine and Janine were among the few characters to have complete art in Gen 2, so their outfits saw few changes, while the likes of Pryce, Clair, and Karen (who had little to no official art in GSC) got major makeovers.

It's a similar case with ORAS. The Hoenn Gym Leaders and E4 all had complete artwork in RSE, so with a few exceptions, they all looked pretty similar in ORAS. The likes of Courtney, Tabitha, Matt, and Shelly, on the other hand, had zero artwork in RSE, so they all got huge makeovers.

After RSE, there aren't many characters left without official art, so I think we'll see fewer drastic redesigns in future remakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8602319)
So I heard this wacky rumor from a youtuber saying Yellow will be remade next year...but for the Wii U...wonder how that would work (there are equally wacky rumors about Gen VII and the Wii U too).

Yeah, not gonna happen. Pokémon's going to remain a handheld game, no matter what. Now, remakes of console spin-offs like Snap, Stadium, and Colosseum/XD could possibly happen on the Wii U, but we have yet to see the first remake of a spin-off, so any of these happening is a long shot.

Megan February 3rd, 2015 1:58 AM

Tbh, I think gen 1 is beyond remake capabilities. There's just too much change that happened during all those generations transitions. What I'd rather like to see is a complete recreation of Kanto. Redesign all the routes, caves and towns, rebalance all the trainers, change all the encounters with wild Pokemon; nobody likes to see Rattata on every route, especially now where we have over 700 other Pokemon to choose from. Recreate the complete story so that you actually see how Team Rocket is doing what they do and add more content to show that they're actually taking actions instead of just being there, waiting to be beat up by a little kid, like in the original games.
Also add exploration elements that are actually explorative; now that there's basically no limit in memory capacities, it gives so many possiblities to hide secrets.

Also Mega Venomoth.

BettyNewbie February 3rd, 2015 1:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.F. (Post 8604946)
Tbh, I think gen 1 is beyond remake capabilities. There's just too much change that happened during all those generations transitions. What I'd rather like to see is a complete recreation of Kanto. Redesign all the routes, caves and towns, rebalance all the trainers, change all the encounters with wild Pokemon; nobody likes to see Rattata on every route, especially now where we have over 700 other Pokemon to choose from. Recreate the complete story so that you actually see how Team Rocket is doing what they do and add more content to show that they're actually taking actions instead of just being there, waiting to be beat up by a little kid, like in the original games.
Also add exploration elements that are actually explorative; now that there's basically no limit in memory capacities, it gives so many possiblities to hide secrets.

Also Mega Venomoth.

That's actually the kind of Gen 1 remake I'd love to see, something more like a full-scale reboot of the old games rather than a lazy copy/paste (like FRLG was). The same general story could be there, but greatly expanded upon and fleshed out, with a few things changed up and mixed around. Same goes for the region, itself.

And, a big YES to the larger Pokédex. Would it be that hard to, at least, give us all of Gen 2 and all of the later pre/evolutions?

RandomDSdevel February 4th, 2015 8:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8605513)
Quote:

Originally Posted by R.F. (Post 8604946)
Tbh, I think gen 1 is beyond remake capabilities. There's just too much change that happened during all those generations transitions. What I'd rather like to see is a complete recreation of Kanto. Redesign all the routes, caves and towns, rebalance all the trainers, change all the encounters with wild Pokemon; nobody likes to see Rattata on every route, especially now where we have over 700 other Pokemon to choose from. Recreate the complete story so that you actually see how Team Rocket is doing what they do and add more content to show that they're actually taking actions instead of just being there, waiting to be beat up by a little kid, like in the original games.
Also add exploration elements that are actually explorative; now that there's basically no limit in memory capacities, it gives so many possiblities to hide secrets.

Also Mega Venomoth.

That's actually the kind of Gen 1 remake I'd love to see, something more like a full-scale reboot of the old games rather than a lazy copy/paste (like FRLG was). The same general story could be there, but greatly expanded upon and fleshed out, with a few things changed up and mixed around. Same goes for the region, itself.

And, a big YES to the larger Pokédex. Would it be that hard to, at least, give us all of Gen 2 and all of the later pre/evolutions?

Maybe GameFreak could include some of the anime-exclusive locations in an expanded Kanto? I'd particularly like to see Bill's Lighthouse, but I bet there might be other locations from the anime that could be added to the games.

TheSonicMaster662 February 4th, 2015 9:38 AM

I think they should do Kanto Remakes Because Pokemon's 20th Anniversary is coming up so it would kinda make sense if they did.

Scotash! February 4th, 2015 9:55 AM

Sign me up for that now! Yes!


I'd kill for Kanto remakes in the current format. Imagine what they could do with it, Cerulan Cave, Rocket Headquarters etc...

BettyNewbie February 4th, 2015 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomDSdevel (Post 8606398)
Maybe GameFreak could include some of the anime-exclusive locations in an expanded Kanto? I'd particularly like to see Bill's Lighthouse, but I bet there might be other locations from the anime that could be added to the games.

Oh, I'd love that, especially if it's a Yellow remake. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing the routes and cities themselves expanded and made over to resemble their anime counterparts more. It'd still be the games' story (you'd still have Red and Blue instead of Ash and Gary, and so on), just with a few more features and shout-outs "borrowed" from the anime.

bobandbill February 4th, 2015 6:48 PM

It would have to be a yellow remake, and even then I'd be sceptical, just because ever since Yellow Game Freak have steered clear of the anime (remember, the anime is based on the games rather than the other way around). Prime case is FRLG where instead of the Orange Islands Game Freak made up their own Sevii Islands.

BettyNewbie February 4th, 2015 7:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 8606970)
It would have to be a yellow remake, and even then I'd be sceptical, just because ever since Yellow Game Freak have steered clear of the anime (remember, the anime is based on the games rather than the other way around).

I'm not so sure of that, considering that the most recent games included a pretty obvious reference to an anime episode. There are also several other anime references listed here (be warned that spin-off games are mixed in, but the list is mostly main series games). While GF hasn't made a direct anime tribute since Yellow, they haven't exactly ignored it, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 8606970)
Prime case is FRLG where instead of the Orange Islands Game Freak made up their own Sevii Islands.

And, the games were probably worse for it. The Sevii Islands had none of the personality and uniqueness that Orange had.

bobandbill February 4th, 2015 8:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8606984)
I'm not so sure of that, considering that the most recent games included a pretty obvious reference to an anime episode. There are also several other anime references listed here (be warned that spin-off games are mixed in, but the list is mostly main series games). While GF hasn't made a direct anime tribute since Yellow, they haven't exactly ignored it, either.



And, the games were probably worse for it. The Sevii Islands had none of the personality and uniqueness that Orange had.

Maybe I should have clarified that they haven't made references on the level of Yellow then... because those are significantly different to actively using areas from the anime, the latter which was clearly avoided in FRLG despite the obvious fit it would have provided. (There's a couple anime references in Pokemon XD I believe, but that's Genius Sonority and again pretty much on the same level as the Alain thing.) My point was that since Yellow, nothing of that sort (characters, plot events e.g. getting all starters and starting with Pikachu, or areas) from the anime have shown up to anywhere near that extent. That's significantly different. Given the opportunity in FRLG and the continued lack of any such areas in HGSS and the very recent ORAS (which threw in original sidestory in say Sea Mauville that is completely unique to the anime afaik), I feel confident that Game Freak don't have any intention of borrowing full areas from the anime for other remakes or games.

(And a lot of those listed on bulba are kinda iffy. Clair using a Gyarados included - Lance used one too, and it's not red like in the anime. They have an obvious tie and Gyarados is dragon-like, and I honestly can't say that sounds like an actual reference. Or the cinnabar one. 'GSC said Cinnabar was destroy by a volcano. There's a volcano in the anime!' is... really drawing a long bow there. Pokemon Puzzle League meanwhile is unapologetically based on the anime. And a large list are Smash Bros, which is another category in itself.)

Being ignorant of the anime I can't say if it would have been worse. I wasn't the greatest fan of the Sevii Islands but I'm not sure the Orange Island would have been necessarily better.

Guest123123 February 4th, 2015 9:27 PM

I'm more than fine with remakes because I like seeing earlier regions with updated mechanics, graphics, and music. But remakes of remakes...I feel like it'd be too much. If they did that, there might be more remakes than games with new adventures coming out.

In order for me to want it, there would have to significant changes that set it apart from RBY and FRLG other than the above mentioned updates, because FRLG did that for its time. Especially since Kanto is my second least favorite region. The only big change I can think of that would make me want the game(s) would be a brand new adventure in Kanto (which wouldn't really be a Red/Blue remake anyway), which I've seen suggested occasionally.

BettyNewbie February 4th, 2015 9:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 8607113)
Maybe I should have clarified that they haven't made references on the level of Yellow then... because those are significantly different to actively using areas from the anime, the latter which was clearly avoided in FRLG despite the obvious fit it would have provided. (There's a couple anime references in Pokemon XD I believe, but that's Genius Sonority and again pretty much on the same level as the Alain thing.) My point was that since Yellow, nothing of that sort (characters, plot events e.g. getting all starters and starting with Pikachu, or areas) from the anime have shown up to anywhere near that extent. That's significantly different. Given the opportunity in FRLG and the continued lack of any such areas in HGSS and the very recent ORAS (which threw in original sidestory in say Sea Mauville that is completely unique to the anime afaik), I feel confident that Game Freak don't have any intention of borrowing full areas from the anime for other remakes or games.

Well, that's because the anime just isn't as popular as it was in 1999. But, the earlier seasons are still pretty nostalgic and iconic for a lot of older fans and are even part of "Gen 1" for them, for better or worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 8607113)
Lance used one too, and it's not red like in the anime.

That's because Lance had a Gyarados in the games from Day One, while Clair didn't get hers until HGSS (after she had appeared on the anime). Plus, Lance actually does own a blue Gyarados in the anime (an obvious reference the one he uses in the games).

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 8607113)
Or the cinnabar one. 'GSC said Cinnabar was destroy by a volcano. There's a volcano in the anime!' is... really drawing a long bow there.

There was no evidence of a volcano being on Cinnabar Island in RBY. It was only in the anime that we actually saw a volcano there for the first time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 8607113)
Being ignorant of the anime I can't say if it would have been worse. I wasn't the greatest fan of the Sevii Islands but I'm not sure the Orange Island would have been necessarily better.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Orange_Archipelago

The Orange Islands actually have their own League. That, alone, makes them better.

Orithan February 4th, 2015 9:46 PM

I don't see a Kanto remake coming out any time soon, unless it gets shoehorned into X/Y2 or something like that.
It has been included in four straight generations, in remakes in the case of III and IV. The likely targeted fanbase (which are mostly genwunners, look at the numbers) would revolt anyway like they did with FR/LG. DPPt is now becoming the fan favorite, like how RSE was at the time when they got their remakes. And so on.
I see more reason why they would remake Gen IV next, and then any subsequent gens along the line if Pokemon manages to live that long, than they would remake Gen I again. An all-generation game (if possible) is probably going to be Gamefreak's last project if it is to happen at all.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 6th, 2015 9:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8607190)
Well, that's because the anime just isn't as popular as it was in 1999. But, the earlier seasons are still pretty nostalgic and iconic for a lot of older fans and are even part of "Gen 1" for them, for better or worse.



That's because Lance had a Gyarados in the games from Day One, while Clair didn't get hers until HGSS (after she had appeared on the anime). Plus, Lance actually does own a blue Gyarados in the anime (an obvious reference the one he uses in the games).



There was no evidence of a volcano being on Cinnabar Island in RBY. It was only in the anime that we actually saw a volcano there for the first time.



http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Orange_Archipelago

The Orange Islands actually have their own League. That, alone, makes them better.

Nor in the remakes did a volcano appear (nor GSC...) meanwhile HgSs showed a cooled dome. Given HGSS' depiction I assume that Cinnabar's volcano isn't the stereotypical volcano but more of like volcanos that one just think about as a mountain (btw I think Mt. Moon is based on a mountain that is also a volcano). Actually those tend to be some of the most deadliest as they just explode (think of Mt. St. Helens) and given the destruction of Cinnabar...so they should at least show the mountain.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8609576)
Nor in the remakes did a volcano appear (nor GSC...) meanwhile HgSs showed a cooled dome. Given HGSS' depiction I assume that Cinnabar's volcano isn't the stereotypical volcano but more of like volcanos that one just think about as a mountain (btw I think Mt. Moon is based on a mountain that is also a volcano). Actually those tend to be some of the most deadliest as they just explode (think of Mt. St. Helens) and given the destruction of Cinnabar...so they should at least show the mountain.

Well, in GSC, we did see a mountain (with a water-filled crater on top) on Cinnabar, which would presumably be the volcano. HGSS, obviously, had better graphics and more space, so we got a more detailed and obvious volcano there.

A new remake should have some sort of mountain or volcano on Cinnabar. Thanks to the Gen 2 games, we know that one is supposed to be there, so why make it suddenly vanish in Gen 1 remakes?

And, in addition, I think the volcano should be explorable. Maybe, they could stick a Legendary or something deep in it?

Mega_Kris February 7th, 2015 12:28 PM

The only things i want in a Red/Blue remake, and the only things i believe Red/Blue remake will ever need to be enjoyable and still feel fresh, but not distorting of what makes it a remake of the original. After all, the goal is still to introduce new fans and old to the original experience Red/Blue had:

more companionship with your starter Pokemon. Since their on the cover of the games, they should be highlighted more. Just like in Pokemon Yellow, being able to walk with you, see its mood, and perhaps a very small amount of features that help make Pokemon more dynamic.

Surfing Pikachu game. Through some form of event, a Pikachu with the surf ability should be added in.

More references to Pokemon Gold/Silver....perhaps an episode where you reach Mt silver and suddenly battle Gold (of course with a time gap).

If it absolutely needs it, i suppose day/night feature wont hurt. However, i do believe that if their going to put that feature to use, they should add some mini events for it. (i still don't want to see a reshuffled Pokemon roster for each game just for the sake of having nocturnal/diurnal Pokemon, that's not what Pokemon Red/Blue were about).

Above all else, an expansion on Mew/Mewtwo story, and of course an expansion/side quest for the legendary birds of Kanto. Eusine seems to be from Kanto, so why not incorporate him in?

THINGS I DONT WANT TO SEE:
Customization i feel is absolutely unnecessary even for a modern Pokemon game, especially when its about a character who has had a set design and has grown iconic in the Pokemon community. if customization had to be done, i would say that it would be limited to different baseball caps, and shirts.

I don't want to see Mega Evolutions, or any specific game mechanics introduced in current gen....and let me clarify this especially, I don't want to see these things within the single player experience of the game. Obviously the game has to be capable of current gen mechanics in order to battle with friends and others, and it makes no sense to make a whole new network just for the remake. However, i don't want those things to be incorporated into the canon of the story (like what Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire did). it doesn't need to be done.

I don't want to see redesigned Kanto, Generation 1 kanto looked beautiful and have always imagined what it would look like in 3D. again, whats the point of a remake if they redesign completely just because it appears more modern?

Mago Luis February 7th, 2015 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610115)
Well, in GSC, we did see a mountain (with a water-filled crater on top) on Cinnabar, which would presumably be the volcano. HGSS, obviously, had better graphics and more space, so we got a more detailed and obvious volcano there.

A new remake should have some sort of mountain or volcano on Cinnabar. Thanks to the Gen 2 games, we know that one is supposed to be there, so why make it suddenly vanish in Gen 1 remakes?

And, in addition, I think the volcano should be explorable. Maybe, they could stick a Legendary or something deep in it?

I think Cinnabar Island is actually the volcano's summit, and the crater we see in GSC and their remakes is just new rock formed by the lava that the volcano sent out during its eruption.

If they let us explore it in the time of Gen I, we may need Dive to access its interior.

Orithan February 7th, 2015 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8610182)
The only things i want in a Red/Blue remake, and the only things i believe Red/Blue remake will ever need to be enjoyable and still feel fresh, but not distorting of what makes it a remake of the original. After all, the goal is still to introduce new fans and old to the original experience Red/Blue had:

more companionship with your starter Pokemon. Since their on the cover of the games, they should be highlighted more. Just like in Pokemon Yellow, being able to walk with you, see its mood, and perhaps a very small amount of features that help make Pokemon more dynamic.

Surfing Pikachu game. Through some form of event, a Pikachu with the surf ability should be added in.

More references to Pokemon Gold/Silver....perhaps an episode where you reach Mt silver and suddenly battle Gold (of course with a time gap).

If it absolutely needs it, i suppose day/night feature wont hurt. However, i do believe that if their going to put that feature to use, they should add some mini events for it. (i still don't want to see a reshuffled Pokemon roster for each game just for the sake of having nocturnal/diurnal Pokemon, that's not what Pokemon Red/Blue were about).

Above all else, an expansion on Mew/Mewtwo story, and of course an expansion/side quest for the legendary birds of Kanto. Eusine seems to be from Kanto, so why not incorporate him in?

THINGS I DONT WANT TO SEE:
Customization i feel is absolutely unnecessary even for a modern Pokemon game, especially when its about a character who has had a set design and has grown iconic in the Pokemon community. if customization had to be done, i would say that it would be limited to different baseball caps, and shirts.

I don't want to see Mega Evolutions, or any specific game mechanics introduced in current gen....and let me clarify this especially, I don't want to see these things within the single player experience of the game. Obviously the game has to be capable of current gen mechanics in order to battle with friends and others, and it makes no sense to make a whole new network just for the remake. However, i don't want those things to be incorporated into the canon of the story (like what Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire did). it doesn't need to be done.

I don't want to see redesigned Kanto, Generation 1 kanto looked beautiful and have always imagined what it would look like in 3D. again, whats the point of a remake if they redesign completely just because it appears more modern?

I don't think you get quite what a remake is supposed to be. A remake is supposed to modernize the game (including mechanics) as well as fix the flaws and introduce more things. What you described here sounds more like a port with updated graphics, which will be criticized by the fanbase more harshly than ORAS for not being a proper remake and the removal of features from previous generations, the latter of which is what the Gen VI games are also heavily criticized for. That, and the genwunners will still hate it like they did with FR/LG regardless.

Look at Metroid: Zero Mission (if you haven't played it, do so if you like Metroid). MZM not only updated the graphics to modern standards and redesigned everything to make it feel like a completely new game while retaining many of the basic design concepts of the original Metroid (which is very loose at times), but it also fixed whatever flaws the original had and it added plenty of new features and content, mostly to bring it up to modern standards. This new content ranged from series staples that appeared later on in the series like Speed Boost and Super Missiles to expanding many existing areas and the addition of entirely new areas.

lando February 7th, 2015 1:06 PM

I'm honestly so tired of Kanto. If I see another Kanto game or game with Kanto in it I will rip my eyes from sockets. Like really do we really need to keep revisiting this region. I want something new I'm so tired of Kanto this Kanto that. Granted I'm a Hoennbaby I was in love with ORAS but I still want something new like Pokemon Z, Pokemon Delta Z, or Pokemon Delta Emerld Z.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 7th, 2015 1:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8610182)
The only things i want in a Red/Blue remake, and the only things i believe Red/Blue remake will ever need to be enjoyable and still feel fresh, but not distorting of what makes it a remake of the original. After all, the goal is still to introduce new fans and old to the original experience Red/Blue had:

more companionship with your starter Pokemon. Since their on the cover of the games, they should be highlighted more. Just like in Pokemon Yellow, being able to walk with you, see its mood, and perhaps a very small amount of features that help make Pokemon more dynamic.

Surfing Pikachu game. Through some form of event, a Pikachu with the surf ability should be added in.

More references to Pokemon Gold/Silver....perhaps an episode where you reach Mt silver and suddenly battle Gold (of course with a time gap).

If it absolutely needs it, i suppose day/night feature wont hurt. However, i do believe that if their going to put that feature to use, they should add some mini events for it. (i still don't want to see a reshuffled Pokemon roster for each game just for the sake of having nocturnal/diurnal Pokemon, that's not what Pokemon Red/Blue were about).

Above all else, an expansion on Mew/Mewtwo story, and of course an expansion/side quest for the legendary birds of Kanto. Eusine seems to be from Kanto, so why not incorporate him in?

THINGS I DONT WANT TO SEE:
Customization i feel is absolutely unnecessary even for a modern Pokemon game, especially when its about a character who has had a set design and has grown iconic in the Pokemon community. if customization had to be done, i would say that it would be limited to different baseball caps, and shirts.

I don't want to see Mega Evolutions, or any specific game mechanics introduced in current gen....and let me clarify this especially, I don't want to see these things within the single player experience of the game. Obviously the game has to be capable of current gen mechanics in order to battle with friends and others, and it makes no sense to make a whole new network just for the remake. However, i don't want those things to be incorporated into the canon of the story (like what Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire did). it doesn't need to be done.

I don't want to see redesigned Kanto, Generation 1 kanto looked beautiful and have always imagined what it would look like in 3D. again, whats the point of a remake if they redesign completely just because it appears more modern?

I would say GF agrees with you when it comes to the designs seeing how none of the three sets of generational remakes we've seen thus far change the region much...I even read someone on here call ORAS Hoenn as copy and Paste of RS Hoenn...

It would be nice though to see some changes like new areas to give it a fresh feel (Hoenn sadly lacked that). They could introduce the Mega story post game. Also a Kanto remake could explain why a Pokemon like Mewtwo which was man-made would have a Mega stone (unless the theory of how Mega stones were created is wrong). It could be that Mewtwonite are a mutation of Mewnite stones. Or perhaps Mega Stones were created from the DNA inside of Mew (which is connected with the rest) which would wouldn't be contradicted by ORAS as Super-ancient mons like Groudon and Kyogre lack Megas and the third super-ancient Pokemon, Rayquaza's Mega is so different from the rest.

Mega_Kris February 7th, 2015 1:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orithan (Post 8610221)
I don't think you get quite what a remake is supposed to be.

Considering I've played dozens of remakes....i have a pretty strong understanding of the levels of remake there are. ORAS is the only remake, that goes out of its way to not be.

Quote:

A remake is supposed to modernize the game (including mechanics) as well as fix the flaws and introduce more things.
Modernize the game would be graphically, mechanically, i already mentioned that they should add those lements for the sake of PvP. But not for the main aspect of the gameplay.
Quote:

What you described here sounds more like a port with updated graphics,
I dont think pokemon fans know what a port is....or at least you're making them look like that.
A port is literally taking the same game (with no major changes whatsoever -- including graphics) and putting it on a new system. For example: Mega Man Xtreme on e-shop is literally the exact same game that it was from when it came out in GBC cartridge. That is a Port.

An example of a "remake" is Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy III were remade for the DS in 3D. they expanded the story with some cutscenes, and added a few game mechanics to balance out the game. BUt they didn't "add" anything that the current Final Fantasies had. And they didn't need to. because the games were fine the way they were back then.

Quote:

which will be criticized by the fanbase more harshly than ORAS for not being a proper remake and the removal of features from previous generations, the latter of which is what the Gen VI games are also heavily criticized for. That, and the genwunners will still hate it like they did with FR/LG regardless.
I can see why people hate ORAS....they went halfway....they changed the story, then call it an alternate universe, yet they wanted to still make it feel some-what like the original so they didn't add ALL the mechanics of the current Gen. so if it was an alternate universe of RSE, why even bother to not go all the way?

That's why it was criticized, but if it was a genuine, full remake of the original, that only modernized the graphics and modernized the mechanics (to the level that will only allow PvP between X&Y), AND they fully admitted this when they announced ORAS, then Fans wouldn't have expected so many new mechanics on a remake.

But they didn't, we saw something that was clearly nothing near the original, only in name....

Quote:

Look at Metroid: Zero Mission (if you haven't played it, do so if you like Metroid). MZM not only updated the graphics and redesigned everything to make it feel like a completely new game while retaining the basic design of the original Metroid (which is very loose at times). But it also fixed whatever flaws the original had and it added plenty of new features and content; ranging from series staples that appeared later on in the series like Speed Boost and Super Missiles to expanding many existing areas and the addition of entirely new areas.
Metroid Zero mission is actually criticized at times because it affects the story of Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion as well. Getting those items such as Speed Boost and Grip jumping completely contradicts Super Metroid when Samus Aran learns these abilities through the animals of that land. Not only that but Metroid Fusion even references these creatures and how they unlocked her full potential.

Metroid Zero Mission is fun, but then again they remade a game that was nothing but gameplay and nothing about story...So remaking a game like that means nothing (except for the fans that enjoyed the story continuation from then on).

but they didn't need to remake Metroid Zero Mission the way they did. For example: They could've remade Metroid, Metroid II: Return of Samus, and Super Metroid as one continuous story. But they chose to remake Metroid only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8610236)
I would say GF agrees with you when it comes to the designs seeing how none of the three sets of generational remakes we've seen thus far change the region much...I even read someone on here call ORAS Hoenn as copy and Paste of RS Hoenn...

It would be nice though to see some changes like new areas to give it a fresh feel (Hoenn sadly lacked that). They could introduce the Mega story post game. Also a Kanto remake could explain why a Pokemon like Mewtwo which was man-made would have a Mega stone (unless the theory of how Mega stones were created is wrong). It could be that Mewtwonite are a mutation of Mewnite stones. Or perhaps Mega Stones were created from the DNA inside of Mew (which is connected with the rest) which would wouldn't be contradicted by ORAS as Super-ancient mons like Groudon and Kyogre lack Megas and the third super-ancient Pokemon, Rayquaza's Mega is so different from the rest.

i would not like the aesthetics to change drastically......if fans can't appreciate what the original introduce...then don't buy remakes, or when you see remakes, don't get anticipated by them if you know their not remakes.

i could care less about the mega evolution story....it would've been nice if mega evolutions were properly introduced in X&Y rather than make a substory where its introduced in ORAS.

i value story a lot....i don't value retcons. And i don't want red/blue to be retconned.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 2:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8610189)
I think Cinnabar Island is actually the volcano's summit, and the crater we see in GSC and their remakes is just new rock formed by the lava that the volcano sent out during its eruption.

If they let us explore it in the time of Gen I, we may need Dive to access its interior.

Then, put Dive in the game, then, and actually depict the island as a giant underwater volcano. I just want to see a volcano of some sort on the island.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 7th, 2015 2:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8610260)
Considering I've played dozens of remakes....i have a pretty strong understanding of the levels of remake there are. ORAS is the only remake, that goes out of its way to not be.


Modernize the game would be graphically, mechanically, i already mentioned that they should add those lements for the sake of PvP. But not for the main aspect of the gameplay.

I dont think pokemon fans know what a port is....or at least you're making them look like that.
A port is literally taking the same game (with no major changes whatsoever -- including graphics) and putting it on a new system. For example: Mega Man Xtreme on e-shop is literally the exact same game that it was from when it came out in GBC cartridge. That is a Port.

An example of a "remake" is Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy III were remade for the DS in 3D. they expanded the story with some cutscenes, and added a few game mechanics to balance out the game. BUt they didn't "add" anything that the current Final Fantasies had. And they didn't need to. because the games were fine the way they were back then.



I can see why people hate ORAS....they went halfway....they changed the story, then call it an alternate universe, yet they wanted to still make it feel some-what like the original so they didn't add ALL the mechanics of the current Gen. so if it was an alternate universe of RSE, why even bother to not go all the way?

That's why it was criticized, but if it was a genuine, full remake of the original, that only modernized the graphics and modernized the mechanics (to the level that will only allow PvP between X&Y), AND they fully admitted this when they announced ORAS, then Fans wouldn't have expected so many new mechanics on a remake.

But they didn't, we saw something that was clearly nothing near the original, only in name....


Metroid Zero mission is actually criticized at times because it affects the story of Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion as well. Getting those items such as Speed Boost and Grip jumping completely contradicts Super Metroid when Samus Aran learns these abilities through the animals of that land. Not only that but Metroid Fusion even references these creatures and how they unlocked her full potential.

Metroid Zero Mission is fun, but then again they remade a game that was nothing but gameplay and nothing about story...So remaking a game like that means nothing (except for the fans that enjoyed the story continuation from then on).

but they didn't need to remake Metroid Zero Mission the way they did. For example: They could've remade Metroid, Metroid II: Return of Samus, and Super Metroid as one continuous story. But they chose to remake Metroid only.


i would not like the aesthetics to change drastically......if fans can't appreciate what the original introduce...then don't buy remakes, or when you see remakes, don't get anticipated by them if you know their not remakes.

i could care less about the mega evolution story....it would've been nice if mega evolutions were properly introduced in X&Y rather than make a substory where its introduced in ORAS.

i value story a lot....i don't value retcons. And i don't want red/blue to be retconned.

Technically RB were already retconned...by ORAS which practically made it known that the remake world is not the same as the originals (in total there should be three main lines RGBY-GSC then RSEFrLg-DPPHgSs-BW-B2W2, and then XY-OrAs). Also don't forget that Magneton being part steel contradicts GSC being the discovery of Steel types.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 6:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8610372)
Technically RB were already retconned...by ORAS which practically made it known that the remake world is not the same as the originals (in total there should be three main lines RGBY-GSC then RSEFrLg-DPPHgSs-BW-B2W2, and then XY-OrAs). Also don't forget that Magneton being part steel contradicts GSC being the discovery of Steel types.

Exactly. This, alone, is a big reason why Gen 1 needs another remake. Neither RBY or FRLG exist in the current timeline.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 7th, 2015 7:17 PM

It'll have to be this Gen though as a Gen VII Gen I remake would retcon the current timeline...interestingly so would a Gen VII (another) gen II remake in addition to DP, and BW remake (and in a way so would B2W2 but that one can get away with it). Considering Gen VI looks like it only two more games left...and both are likely Kalos games Gen I remakes for this Gen are low. So Gen VII should start a new timeline that takes place at the same time as the Kanto saga like Gen III is with FrLg. Eitherway a Kanto re-remake isn't going to part of the current timeline that ORAS showed (and XY established) as it'll retcon a whole gen... (sadly Hoenn will be left behind while Kalos's remake would fit right in (unless if another Gen VII-remake scenerio occurs). Unless if Emerald is remade next gen alongside Gen I Kanto (Yellow or Blue...if Blue it should be AquamarineBlue to fit with a DeltaEmerald) to fix things with the regions + timeline).

I sort of hope that the two games left is proven wrong and GF will simply remake all the gens this Gen. GF does want to slow down the rate of new mons. Perhaps the next pair will be Kanto-Johto remakes followed by DP remakes which then are followed by Grey and Grey2 as Gen V remakes then Z to finish things off. GF did say they wanted to end this Gen differently a simple third version after Gen I-V remakes would be a surprise...
Unlikely but then again Nintendo did recently mention they have a remake strategy when it comes to their properties (look at all the remakes...Xenoblade 3D, MM3D (shortly after OoT3D came out), ORAS, etc.) and would look to remaking more games.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 8:19 PM

How do you know that Gen 7 won't be part of the same timeline? Gen 4 didn't retcon the timeline from Gen 3, and Gen 5 didn't retcon the timeline from Gen 4, after all. The only Gens that established new timelines were Gens 3 and 6.

Gen 1 remakes can easily fit into Gen 7 and still be part of the same timeline as ORAS. We don't know anything about what Gen 7's main games will be and when they'll take place, after all.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 7th, 2015 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610691)
How do you know that Gen 7 won't be part of the same timeline? Gen 4 didn't retcon the timeline from Gen 3, and Gen 5 didn't retcon the timeline from Gen 4, after all. The only Gens that established new timelines were Gens 3 and 6.

Gen 1 remakes can easily fit into Gen 7 and still be part of the same timeline as ORAS. We don't know anything about what Gen 7's main games will be and when they'll take place, after all.

Because the Gen 7 Pokemon's existence itself will retcon the Pokemon known in Gen VI if it (or a game in Gen VII) takes place prior to XY like how RS(E) retconed the Pokemon known by Gen II's time with FrLg cementing the retcon with Gen III mons appearing when they shouldn't have been known. Meanwhile Gen II built on Gen I's known Pokemon as it was in the future, like wise Gens IV and V built on the known Pokemon from Gen III as the gens were after one another in the timeline (XY itself does this, and likely prior to ORAS Gen VI originally going to be part of said timeline). It'll be fine if a Gen 7 game took place after XY but as soon as one introduces something in between ORAS and XY, or even during like Gen I (and to some extent B2W2) remakes would and allow it to have Gen VII mons it'll retcon the known mons established by the time XY take place, more so than Megas do.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8610824)
Because the Gen 7 Pokemon's existence itself will retcon the Pokemon known in Gen VI if it (or a game in Gen VII) takes place prior to XY like how RS(E) retconed the Pokemon known by Gen II's time with FrLg cementing the retcon with Gen III mons appearing when they shouldn't have been known. Meanwhile Gen II built on Gen I's known Pokemon as it was in the future, like wise Gens IV and V built on the known Pokemon from Gen III as the gens were after one another in the timeline (XY itself does this, and likely prior to ORAS Gen VI originally going to be part of said timeline). It'll be fine if a Gen 7 game took place after XY but as soon as one introduces something in between ORAS and XY, or even during like Gen I (and to some extent B2W2) remakes would and allow it to have Gen VII mons it'll retcon the known mons established by the time XY take place, more so than Megas do.

Reposting my visitor message to you...

Man, Gen 6 really did a number on the games' timeline, didn't it?

In a sense, they already wrote themselves in a corner when they chose to set XY during B2W2 and didn't completely hit the reset button like they did way back with the original RSE.

I'm sure GF already knew that remaking RSE would require another "reboot" of sorts, since the games take place before GSC/HGSS on the timeline and were, themselves, the original reboot. But, on the other hand, I don't think GF was entirely sure on how to do this.

The easy way out would've been to just hit the reset button with XY and set it during the same time as Gens 1 and 3, but then, they ran the risk of alienating more people, especially when you consider how soon XY came out after B2W2. That was obviously something GF was trying to avoid.

In short, GF didn't plan this new timeline out. At all. :sideways:

(And, that's not even considering the fact that they may have already screwed things up by introducing new Megas in ORAS and not patching them to exist in XY.)

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610853)
Reposting my visitor message to you...

Man, Gen 6 really did a number on the games' timeline, didn't it?

In a sense, they already wrote themselves in a corner when they chose to set XY during B2W2 and didn't completely hit the reset button like they did way back with the original RSE.

I'm sure GF already knew that remaking RSE would require another "reboot" of sorts, since the games take place before GSC/HGSS on the timeline and were, themselves, the original reboot. But, on the other hand, I don't think GF was entirely sure on how to do this.

The easy way out would've been to just hit the reset button with XY and set it during the same time as Gens 1 and 3, but then, they ran the risk of alienating more people, especially when you consider how soon XY came out after B2W2. That was obviously something GF was trying to avoid.

In short, GF didn't plan this new timeline out. At all. :sideways:

(And, that's not even considering the fact that they may have already screwed things up by introducing new Megas in ORAS and not patching them to exist in XY.)

I really wonder how they messed it up...it seems like XY was meant to continue the timeline established by Gen III prior to ORAS retconing that. It makes me ask if perhaps GF had already finished XY's story before thinking up ORAS'...there's a lot of contradictions of XY in ORAS that makes me think so.

Actually if I had gotten my way and ORAS had appeared at the end of the Generation they could have made it so that the Kalos games were the end and then have the remakes cut off from the Gen III-XY'Z' timeline and make a new one where the next gen games would pick up by taking place a couple of months after ORAS and then they could've remade Kanto which would also be a few months after ORAS (perhaps the explosion in the Cave of Origin could have caused the sudden discovery of more mons in regions far from Hoenn).

Anyways since the anime seems to have hints of remakes prior to them happening perhaps the manga does too.
Spoiler:
In the ORAS Pokemon Special arc the manga counterpart of the old lady that teaches the elemental Hyper beams to the starters reappears to train the Hoenn dex holders. Tie this mention to Kanto/Sevii islands with other mentions of Kanto in ORAS (some of which weren't in the originals) seems to hint that sort of return to Kanto may be brewing.

Mago Luis February 8th, 2015 1:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8610824)
Because the Gen 7 Pokemon's existence itself will retcon the Pokemon known in Gen VI if it (or a game in Gen VII) takes place prior to XY like how RS(E) retconed the Pokemon known by Gen II's time with FrLg cementing the retcon with Gen III mons appearing when they shouldn't have been known. Meanwhile Gen II built on Gen I's known Pokemon as it was in the future, like wise Gens IV and V built on the known Pokemon from Gen III as the gens were after one another in the timeline (XY itself does this, and likely prior to ORAS Gen VI originally going to be part of said timeline). It'll be fine if a Gen 7 game took place after XY but as soon as one introduces something in between ORAS and XY, or even during like Gen I (and to some extent B2W2) remakes would and allow it to have Gen VII mons it'll retcon the known mons established by the time XY take place, more so than Megas do.

This may be a bit beside your point, but doesn't "retcon" mean that a new bit of story replaces an older one? If these are alternate timelines like Zinnia suggests, wouldn't that mean that nothing has actually been replaced?

Any contradictions between different games would be because their events happen in slightly different universes. And just because the other timelines aren't the setting of the most recent games doesn't mean that the events of those timelines stop being true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610853)
(And, that's not even considering the fact that they may have already screwed things up by introducing new Megas in ORAS and not patching them to exist in XY.)

Who knows. ORAS (the user) mentioned that there are some contradictions between ORAS and XY, but those contradictions could also be hints to there being various "smaller" branches in each timeline.

Like these two, which I've posted before:

Spoiler:
From XY, in Coumarine City:

Quote:

Professor Sycamore: And why are there examples of Mega Evolution only in the Kalos region? There's still so much we don't know...
Diantha: Does this make you think of something like Kalos's Legendary Pokémon?
Found only here in the Kalos region, right? Nowhere else? Maybe that's not a coincidence.
And then from ORAS, in Fallarbor Town:

Quote:

Professor Cozmo: A relationship between the Mega Stones, Key Stones, and the Meteorites...
My, but new facts do come to light every day! This is what makes my research feel worthwhile!
I know a man, a dear friend in the Kalos region, who has been researching Mega Evolution.
We worked together a few years back here at Meteor Falls researching Meteorites.
I'll have to share this information with him at once.
It might propel his research forward, and help future Trainers and Pokémon. I hope it does.


That could mean there is a branch that contains XY (where Mega Evolution is only seen in Kalos), and another that contains ORAS and a slightly different XY (where Sycamore was contacted by Cozmo and knows Mega Evolution has happened outside Kalos).

CoffeeDrink February 8th, 2015 4:59 AM

I think it would be an interesting play to use the X&Y engine, but utilize an 8-Bit style. You'd get that 3D feel and also get an interesting glance at what could be done with the game. I think it would be intriguing to watch how the Pokémon could turn out . Of course, some people might not appreciate a sepia/black and white filled land, so of course it'd be an item much akin to the GB Sounds item in HG and SS.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 9:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8610896)
This may be a bit beside your point, but doesn't "retcon" mean that a new bit of story replaces an older one? If these are alternate timelines like Zinnia suggests, wouldn't that mean that nothing has actually been replaced?

Any contradictions between different games would be because their events happen in slightly different universes. And just because the other timelines aren't the setting of the most recent games doesn't mean that the events of those timelines stop being true.



Who knows. ORAS (the user) mentioned that there are some contradictions between ORAS and XY, but those contradictions could also be hints to there being various "smaller" branches in each timeline.

Like these two, which I've posted before:

Spoiler:
From XY, in Coumarine City:



And then from ORAS, in Fallarbor Town:



That could mean there is a branch that contains XY (where Mega Evolution is only seen in Kalos), and another that contains ORAS and a slightly different XY (where Sycamore was contacted by Cozmo and knows Mega Evolution has happened outside Kalos).

Well what I was saying is that Gen VII would have to happen at a different timeline than Gen VI if Gen VII includes Kanto remake as the presense of Gen VII mons in Kanto would be too big of a contradiction and would establish another major branch to the timeline like how Gen III and Gen VI did.

BettyNewbie February 8th, 2015 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8610864)
I really wonder how they messed it up...it seems like XY was meant to continue the timeline established by Gen III prior to ORAS retconing that. It makes me ask if perhaps GF had already finished XY's story before thinking up ORAS'...there's a lot of contradictions of XY in ORAS that makes me think so.

Yeah, I'd say that's exactly the case. GF probably knew that they would eventually have to remake RSE, and they (hopefully) should've known that a RSE remake wouldn't be possible without hitting the reset button and establishing a new timeline (since you can't put RSE remakes in the same timeline as Gens 3-5 without contradicting FRLG/HGSS/DPP/BW/B2W2), but it's obvious that they didn't know exactly how to handle this.

It makes me wonder whether or not ORAS were actually originally planned as sequels (taking place at the same time as B2W2 and XY) and were changed to being remakes later in development. The Delta Episode postgame story (which plays out like a sequel) seems to suggest this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8610864)
Anyways since the anime seems to have hints of remakes prior to them happening perhaps the manga does too.
Spoiler:
In the ORAS Pokemon Special arc the manga counterpart of the old lady that teaches the elemental Hyper beams to the starters reappears to train the Hoenn dex holders. Tie this mention to Kanto/Sevii islands with other mentions of Kanto in ORAS (some of which weren't in the originals) seems to hint that sort of return to Kanto may be brewing.

Remake hints in the anime, huh?

Well, I remember that a supposed hint towards FRLG in AG was May obtaining a Bulbasaur, and a hint towards HGSS in DP was Dawn obtaining a Cyndaquil. Marina (based on the Gen 2 female PC) also appeared on the cover of a magazine in a DP episode. As for ORAS hints, well, the main cast of XY has a similar set up to the main cast of AG, with a tag-along younger sibling (albeit, this time a girl and related to the male companion, instead of the other way around).

There's also some possible Gen 1 hints in XY, too. Ash's newest redesign makes him look more similar to Red's FRLG look (merged with a bit of Calem's design), and Serena is said to be Ash's childhood friend from Pallet Town. The (English) XY theme is also a remix of the show's original theme song.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8610896)
And just because the other timelines aren't the setting of the most recent games doesn't mean that the events of those timelines stop being true.

Of course, not. Even the setting of the original RBY/GSC is still 100% true and canon. However, the older timelines aren't GF's priority anymore (hence, the reason why we won't get sequels to any of the pre-XY games anytime soon). Otherwise, they'd have to remove Fairies and Megas from the games, which probably won't go over too well with many people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8610896)
Who knows. ORAS (the user) mentioned that there are some contradictions between ORAS and XY, but those contradictions could also be hints to there being various "smaller" branches in each timeline.

...

That could mean there is a branch that contains XY (where Mega Evolution is only seen in Kalos), and another that contains ORAS and a slightly different XY (where Sycamore was contacted by Cozmo and knows Mega Evolution has happened outside Kalos).

In other words, the games' timeline is a mess. GF really didn't think this one through all too well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoffeeDrink (Post 8611013)
I think it would be an interesting play to use the X&Y engine, but utilize an 8-Bit style. You'd get that 3D feel and also get an interesting glance at what could be done with the game. I think it would be intriguing to watch how the Pokémon could turn out . Of course, some people might not appreciate a sepia/black and white filled land, so of course it'd be an item much akin to the GB Sounds item in HG and SS.

Yeah... no. 8-bit music is one thing, but 8-bit graphics are another. Most people would want to see Gen 1 in gorgeous 3D, not ugly, blotchy sprites.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611322)
Yeah, I'd say that's exactly the case. GF probably knew that they would eventually have to remake RSE, and they (hopefully) should've known that a RSE remake wouldn't be possible without hitting the reset button and establishing a new timeline (since you can't put RSE remakes in the same timeline as Gens 3-5 without contradicting FRLG/HGSS/DPP/BW/B2W2), but it's obvious that they didn't know exactly how to handle this.

It makes me wonder whether or not ORAS were actually originally planned as sequels (taking place at the same time as B2W2 and XY) and were changed to being remakes later in development. The Delta Episode postgame story (which plays out like a sequel) seems to suggest this.



Remake hints in the anime, huh?

Well, I remember that a supposed hint towards FRLG in AG was May obtaining a Bulbasaur, and a hint towards HGSS in DP was Dawn obtaining a Cyndaquil. Marina (based on the Gen 2 female PC) also appeared on the cover of a magazine in a DP episode. As for ORAS hints, well, the main cast of XY has a similar set up to the main cast of AG, with a tag-along younger sibling (albeit, this time a girl and related to the male companion, instead of the other way around).

There's also some possible Gen 1 hints in XY, too. Ash's newest redesign makes him look more similar to Red's FRLG look (merged with a bit of Calem's design), and Serena is said to be Ash's childhood friend from Pallet Town. The (English) XY theme is also a remix of the show's original theme song.



Of course, not. Even the setting of the original RBY/GSC is still 100% true and canon. However, the older timelines aren't GF's priority anymore (hence, the reason why we won't get sequels to any of the pre-XY games anytime soon). Otherwise, they'd have to remove Fairies and Megas from the games, which probably won't go over too well with many people.



In other words, the games' timeline is a mess. GF really didn't think this one through all too well.



Yeah... no. 8-bit music is one thing, but 8-bit graphics are another. Most people would want to see Gen 1 in gorgeous 3D, not ugly, blotchy sprites.

I think that the Delta Episode reading like a sequel was due to Emerald itself reading like a sequel (Wallace being champion seems like a referrence to GSC only it's a reversal of Blue's situation) while in reality being an alternate timeline where Steven went away earlier (ORAS does a good job at showing the inbetween part that likely occured prior to Emerald...funny the Delta Episode also reads as a prequel to Emerald...)

Well they could make a game with nice sprites. Sprite art is in. I do think that they should remake Kanto in 3D though, while Hoenn was treated in Gen IV-V by bulbapedia as the only region not in 3D Gen I Kanto should've been counted too, seeing how it's layout is different from future Kanto.

Mago Luis February 8th, 2015 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8611290)
Well what I was saying is that Gen VII would have to happen at a different timeline than Gen VI if Gen VII includes Kanto remake as the presense of Gen VII mons in Kanto would be too big of a contradiction and would establish another major branch to the timeline like how Gen III and Gen VI did.

So is it canon that the new Pokémon introduced in each generation are all recently discovered at the time those games take place? I thought that was only done in GSC, or only with some Pokémon in the later games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611322)
Of course, not. Even the setting of the original RBY/GSC is still 100% true and canon. However, the older timelines aren't GF's priority anymore (hence, the reason why we won't get sequels to any of the pre-XY games anytime soon). Otherwise, they'd have to remove Fairies and Megas from the games, which probably won't go over too well with many people.

In other words, the games' timeline is a mess. GF really didn't think this one through all too well.

I actually thought it was pretty nice. This apparent mess could actually be leading to some reveal that we haven't thought of yet.

And even if it isn't, it at least lets us imagine the events of every Pokémon game happening with different backgrounds, without the need to retcon or contradict anything. Which I still think is great.

BettyNewbie February 8th, 2015 3:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8611365)
I think that the Delta Episode reading like a sequel was due to Emerald itself reading like a sequel (Wallace being champion seems like a referrence to GSC only it's a reversal of Blue's situation) while in reality being an alternate timeline where Steven went away earlier (ORAS does a good job at showing the inbetween part that likely occured prior to Emerald...funny the Delta Episode also reads as a prequel to Emerald...)

Well, in the previous timeline, Emerald mostly overwrote RS, as all references to the Hoenn games in later Gens pointed back to Emerald instead of RS (with the lone exception of Steven's appearance in HGSS, which was more unclear... I think he was mostly just in HGSS for fanservice purposes instead of story reasons, since he has always been more popular with the fandom than Wallace).

The new timeline, on the other hand, suggests that Emerald's events will actually come later in a sequel instead of completely overwriting RS', which could mean interesting things for future games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8611365)
Well they could make a game with nice sprites. Sprite art is in. I do think that they should remake Kanto in 3D though, while Hoenn was treated in Gen IV-V by bulbapedia as the only region not in 3D Gen I Kanto should've been counted too, seeing how it's layout is different from future Kanto.

Unfortunately, the poster was talking about sprites more like this instead of this. But, even BW/2-quality sprites would still be a step backwards from the graphics of XY-onwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8611487)
I actually thought it was pretty nice. This apparent mess could actually be leading to some reveal that we haven't thought of yet.

This is true. We still have two more games left in Gen 6, and we don't know how they're going to handle the timeline issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8611487)
And even if it isn't, it at least lets us imagine the events of every Pokémon game happening with different backgrounds, without the need to retcon or contradict anything. Which I still think is great.

Having a million different timelines seems nice in theory, but it makes trying to maintain any sense of continuity between the games a total nightmare, especially in regards to direct sequels. Sequels can only continue off of one branch, which means that GF will have to make a hard decision and cut off the others, potentially alienating a good chunk of the fandom. (Just ask all of the people who played as the girl in FRLG who were angry/heartbroken to find out that they weren't the "real" Kanto Hero in HGSS.)

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 7:35 PM

I hope they bring back trainer customization for a Kanto remake. I don't know much about Japanese fashion but if I'm not mistaken Tokyo is a major player in the fashion of that country and we all know Kanto has Tokyo's Poke counterpart ( Saffron)...plus Leaf (and Dawn, funny enough those two and May (in Sapphire) were the only female characters I've played as) came off as one of the most fashionable females. Also those who like blacked haired (or brown haired) Red can will be happy as they can choose his hair color.

Mago Luis February 8th, 2015 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611721)
Having a million different timelines seems nice in theory, but it makes trying to maintain any sense of continuity between the games a total nightmare, especially in regards to direct sequels. Sequels can only continue off of one branch, which means that GF will have to make a hard decision and cut off the others, potentially alienating a good chunk of the fandom. (Just ask all of the people who played as the girl in FRLG who were angry/heartbroken to find out that they weren't the "real" Kanto Hero in HGSS.)

Well, as long as there are multiple versions, some things will have to get ignored or changed in favor of others when a later game references something that happened in earlier versions; they have to choose a version to reference. But with time branches, we can have all these slightly different stories and have them all be valid.

This could actually be a great way to establish that the girl character from FRLG is indeed "real". If you played as her in those games, then you know there is a future (an HGSS) in which she is the heroic Kanto Trainer who challenges the Johto protagonist at Mt. Silver, even if we don't get to see it because of real-world decisions (like keeping the final battle the same as the originals in the remakes). It would be very similar to how we aren't likely to see the non-Mega versions of XY, even though we know they probably happen.

Mega_Kris February 8th, 2015 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8610372)
Technically RB were already retconned...by ORAS which practically made it known that the remake world is not the same as the originals (in total there should be three main lines RGBY-GSC then RSEFrLg-DPPHgSs-BW-B2W2, and then XY-OrAs). Also don't forget that Magneton being part steel contradicts GSC being the discovery of Steel types.

That's not a major retcon at all. Steel type.

Still.....a faithful Red/Blue remake is all i ask...i don't think i'm off-base at all to ask such a thing.


Mega evolution isn't something that's needed to be incorporated within the story of the game. incorporated into the mechanics? sure....if you want to battle between players. but not story.

BettyNewbie February 8th, 2015 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8612166)
Well, as long as there are multiple versions, some things will have to get ignored or changed in favor of others when a later game references something that happened in earlier versions; they have to choose a version to reference. But with time branches, we can have all these slightly different stories and have them all be valid.

Well, the first four Generations dealt with this by simply establishing the Third Version as canon--Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, and Platinum. The Third Versions usually combined elements from the paired games and worked out the discrepancies, thus creating a solid, singular canon to go from.

It was the remakes and Unova games that threw a monkey wrench into this system, as they lacked Third Versions. The Unova games dealt with this, somewhat, by acknowledging the existence of parallel universes and having the Memory Link feature in the sequels (which prevented one PC from being favored over another).

FRLG and HGSS were another story, on the other hand. As FireRed and LeafGreen had no real differences outside of Wild Pokémon, it should've been simple to treat them as one canon, but HGSS screwed that up by leaving in all of Yellow callbacks from the original GSC, even though FRLG incorporated nothing from Yellow.

Going from HGSS, the canon Gen 1 game for the Gen 3-5 timeline isn't FRLG, but instead, a game that doesn't exist--a theoretical Yellow remake that doesn't include any of FRLG's additions, like the female PC or the Sevii Islands.

And, then, you have the mess that is XY and ORAS...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8612166)
This could actually be a great way to establish that the girl character from FRLG is indeed "real". If you played as her in those games, then you know there is a future (an HGSS) in which she is the heroic Kanto Trainer who challenges the Johto protagonist at Mt. Silver, even if we don't get to see it because of real-world decisions (like keeping the final battle the same as the originals in the remakes). It would be very similar to how we aren't likely to see the non-Mega versions of XY, even though we know they probably happen.

Unfortunately, not really. :sideways: While I'm sure there is a timeline where the FRLG girl is the Kanto Hero instead of Red, it's not the one we saw in the games, so it's about as "real" as someone's AU fanfic or ROM hack. The same goes for the Gen 3-5 timeline version of XY, or going further back, the Gen 1-2 timeline version of RSE/DPP/BW/B2W2/XY. (Although, these have a little more canon backing them, since we're now dealing with timelines that actually appeared in the games.)

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8612181)
That's not a major retcon at all. Steel type.

Still.....a faithful Red/Blue remake is all i ask...i don't think i'm off-base at all to ask such a thing.


Mega evolution isn't something that's needed to be incorporated within the story of the game. incorporated into the mechanics? sure....if you want to battle between players. but not story.

It's minor but it is still a retcon (so is the fact that Gen II mons were already known when Gen II said they were discovered recently).

I don't think you are...but I do think some would rather see another ORAS style remake compared to another FRLG take on it.

I prefer a HGSS style remake of RGBY (hey people said GSC and RSE remakes so why not use all of it?) but with a all of the evolutionary additions made after Gen I like ORAS' Hoenn dex did by having all of the evolutionary relatives of it's mons post Gen III (aka their Gen IV evolutions). In other words I'll like to see Magby,Magmotar, Elekid, Electivire, Smoochum, Umbreon, Espeon, Leafeon, Glaceon, Sylveon, Crobat, Happiny, Blissey, Rhyperior, Scyther, Steelix, Bellosom, Politoad, Pichu, Cleffa, Iggybuff, and Mime Jr. added in (I think I named all...may have missed one or two) to the the Kanto dex (that'll be a boost of 22 or so mons for a dex total of 173 or so (not yet the size of Hoenn's but close)).

Mega_Kris February 8th, 2015 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8612187)
It's minor but it is still a retcon (so is the fact that Gen II mons were already known when Gen II said they were discovered recently).

the retcon was done again in HGSS instead of discovering pokemon eggs, they were wll known by that time. But its something that Gen 1 doesn't need to adjust.
Quote:

I don't think you are...but I do think some would rather see another ORAS style remake compared to another FRLG take on it.
i think the happy medium is HGSS remake. ORAS isn't a remake, no matter how much anyones says it is. FRLG is a standard remake, but people expected "some" addition to the game that helped make it more expansive.

Quote:

I prefer a HGSS style remake of RGBY (hey people said GSC and RSE remakes so why not use all of it?) but with a all of the evolutionary additions made after Gen I like ORAS' Hoenn dex did by having all of the evolutionary relatives of it's mons post Gen III (aka their Gen IV evolutions). In other words I'll like to see Magby,Magmotar, Elekid, Electivire, Smoochum, Umbreon, Espeon, Leafeon, Glaceon, Sylveon, Crobat, Happiny, Blissey, Rhyperior, Scyther, Steelix, Bellosom, Politoad, Pichu, Cleffa, Iggybuff, and Mime Jr. added in (I think I named all...may have missed one or two) to the the Kanto dex (that'll be a boost of 22 or so mons for a dex total of 173 or so (not yet the size of Hoenn's but close)).
That's actually really easy to fix.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8612200)
the retcon was done again in HGSS instead of discovering pokemon eggs, they were wll known by that time. But its something that Gen 1 doesn't need to adjust.

i think the happy medium is HGSS remake. ORAS isn't a remake, no matter how much anyones says it is. FRLG is a standard remake, but people expected "some" addition to the game that helped make it more expansive.


That's actually really easy to fix.

It still fits the definition of Remake though "A remake offers a newer interpretation of an older work, characterized by updated or changed assets. A remake typically maintains the same story, genre, and fundamental gameplay ideas of the original work. The intent of a remake is usually to take an older game that has become outdated and update it for a new platform and audience. Remakes almost always include new graphics, altered gameplay, and remixed music. If you look at the difference between a remake and an original the difference is phenomenal. But may also include expanded stories, often to conform to the conventions of contemporary games or later titles in the same series in order to make a game marketable to a new audience." (source: Wikipedia) so technically it is one with that expanded story line meant to fit RSE's story up to the standards of XY (note that the basic plot was the same, as was the region, and the music was remixed. It was just more of a remix than FRLG was which was closer to a port in the spectrum of remakes).

The dex expansion is an easy fix but it took the third set of remakes to expand it's region's dex with all of the cross-generation evolutionary relatives...

Mega_Kris February 8th, 2015 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8612209)
It still fits the definition of Remake though "A remake offers a newer interpretation of an older work, characterized by updated or changed assets. A remake typically maintains the same story, genre, and fundamental gameplay ideas of the original work. The intent of a remake is usually to take an older game that has become outdated and update it for a new platform and audience. Remakes almost always include new graphics, altered gameplay, and remixed music. If you look at the difference between a remake and an original the difference is phenomenal. But may also include expanded stories, often to conform to the conventions of contemporary games or later titles in the same series in order to make a game marketable to a new audience." (source: Wikipedia)

Normally, Wikipedia is based on sources, the article you pulled that from shares little to no sources to back up its information. Also, the vast majority of what is highlighted about remakes is mostly about sticking to the original. Almost every remake will have some form of addition. BUT that's not what people love about remakes. Its what people look forward to. seeing something getting updated. but its not about how many changes they can make, its about how many additions help refine the original vision.

Quote:

so technically it is one with that expanded story line meant to fit RSE's story up to the standards of XY.
You choosing your words carefully, doesn't mean you're choosing them "accurately". ORAS doesn't expand the storyline meant to fit RSE. it goes the other way entirely. it literally is an alternate dimension. upto the standards of XY? again...poor choice of words....XY has its own benefits and faults. but their not the current "standards" thats just how they chose to make that specific game.

Quote:

The dex expansion is an easy fix but it took the third set of remakes to expand it's region's dex with all of the cross-generation evolutionary relatives...
It's a really simple fix....it has nothing to do with changing the pokedex...but including two pokedex. the in-story pokedex, and the in-game pokedex. the in-story pokedex can not register it with a specific number, but the in-game can register it. I know this because i've seen a hack do such thing.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 11:11 PM

Uh two dexes pre-national dex seems a bit strange (or would the other simply be the National dex?)...would there be any difference in the entries of the two?
It really seems like you'll like another FRLG style remake..more than a HGSS style remake.

Anyways I think GF will add Megas to bring Kanto the storyline addition they introduced this Gen and thus the 'standards' established by XY.

Mega_Kris February 8th, 2015 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8612221)
Uh two dexes pre national dex seems a bit strange...would there be any difference in the entries of the two?

The change will only be in the numbering. Pokedex in-story remains with standard numbering 1-152. but when it comes to the other. also keep in mind, when i'm thinking of a remake...for a 3D remake to work for red/blue...the only way to keep it faithful (because no matter what, a 3d remake WILL mean expanding DOUBLE the area was given before to set it to the standards of a fun and enjoyable game) is by making it a compilation remake....just like Kingdom Hearts 1.5/2.5 HD remix, Pokemon has the potential to add in Pokemon Gold/Silver aswell.....i personally call it Pokemon Red Gold and Pokemon Blue Silver.

Quote:

It really seems like you'll like another FRLG style remake..more than a HGSS style remake.
FRLG didn't expand mew/mewtwo story.....FRLG didn't add team battles. FRLG didn't add in berries, or all the additions of Gen 2.

FRLG didn't add post game where you go to mount silver certain time later and battle Gold.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8612224)
The change will only be in the numbering.


FRLG didn't expand mew/mewtwo story.....FRLG didn't add team battles. FRLG didn't add in berries, or all the additions of Gen 2.

FRLG didn't add post game where you go to mount silver certain time later and battle Gold.

That wouldn't be any better (or different from having both the Kanto and national dexes)...might as well have the Kanto dex and national dex in that case.

Sorry, I missed that you said that :3c

I doubt the battle with Gold would happen though...
Wait, what are 'Team Battles'? Do you mean doubles? As FrLg had some.

Mega_Kris February 8th, 2015 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8612227)
Sorry, I missed that you said that :3c

I doubt the battle with Gold would happen though...
Wait, what are 'Team Battles'? Do you mean doubles? As FrLg had some.

my memory of FRLG must be fuzzy because i don't remember that. regardless, i do expect expansion, just not "CHANGES". that is the major difference between HGSS and ORAS.


I believe a batte with Gold can work if they compile a Gold/Silver remake.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 8th, 2015 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8612229)
my memory of FRLG must be fuzzy because i don't remember that. regardless, i do expect expansion, just not "CHANGES". that is the major difference between HGSS and ORAS.


I believe a battle with Gold can work if they compile a Gold/Silver re-remake.

Most of them were at the Sevii islands, usually against the twins.

It seems GF shook off their more conservative take on remakes (in HGSS they tried to balance changes and keeping it the same while FRLG were their most conservative remakes.) with ORAS...wonder why though seeing how HGSS was successful (or maybe the slightly more different HGSS (compared to GS) selling better than FRLG made them think more changes were good). If ORAS becomes more successful though sales wise than HGSS they may opt for more changes with Sinnoh and other future remakes. Or perhaps ORAS was just an experiment on a more drastic shift from past remakes and will go back to HGSS style or somewhere in between HGSS and ORAS style, especially with some of the complaints they've heard about ORAS (perhaps HGSS was less of a port due to the complaints of FRLG being too similar to RGB?)

Maybe...if they do two games in one (or use the memory link and have time pass in the Kanto re-remake...or have Red time travel...Celebi anyone?)

Mago Luis February 9th, 2015 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8612182)
Well, the first four Generations dealt with this by simply establishing the Third Version as canon--Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, and Platinum. The Third Versions usually combined elements from the paired games and worked out the discrepancies, thus creating a solid, singular canon to go from.

But then we get the problem you mentioned of invalidating some story variations and alienating players, which is what I wanted to address with my last post. If changing a past hero's gender is an issue because some people may have played as the other, changing the story's events should also be, because some people may only have played one version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8612182)
It was the remakes and Unova games that threw a monkey wrench into this system, as they lacked Third Versions. The Unova games dealt with this, somewhat, by acknowledging the existence of parallel universes and having the Memory Link feature in the sequels (which prevented one PC from being favored over another).

But with features like these, continuity can be handled with parallel universes or timelines, and it doesn't have to be a nightmare and nobody has to get left out.

From Cyhtia's dialogue in BW, Platinum happens both in the timeline with Black and Black 2, and in the timeline with White and White 2. And not only do the events of Platinum happen in both timelines, the Trainer could also have been either gender, and the Trainer could have caught Giratina, or defeated it, or calmed it by not fighting it, and every combination of those possibilities is valid in the Gen V games.

So we have Platinum, Black, White, and their sequels, happening over two timelines, whose heroes' identities (and in Platinum's case, some of their actions) we can interpret however we like.

Admittedly, this bit does leave out people who played Diamond and/or Pearl but not Platinum, but again, that happens because of the existence of different versions rather than the existence of different timelines. Though Giratina is present in Diamond and Pearl, so one could still try fitting them in even if it isn't the main Pokémon.

BettyNewbie February 9th, 2015 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8612760)
But then we get the problem you mentioned of invalidating some story variations and alienating players, which is what I wanted to address with my last post. If changing a past hero's gender is an issue because some people may have played as the other, changing the story's events should also be, because some people may only have played one version.

Well, the Third Versions usually addressed that by combining elements from the paired games (along with adding a new element to their story), so they would still be recognizable to those who only played the paired games.

For example, the only inconsistency in Red and Blue outside of Wild Pokemon (which I don't count for story purposes) is Starter selection--You can only pick one, so you run the risk of canonizing certain Starters over others. Yellow solves this dilemma by having you start with Pikachu and giving you all three Kanto Starters later on, so thus, in GSC, Red can have a team that's 100% neutral and includes every starter while still making sense in canon.

Similarly, the biggest inconsistency in Gold and Silver is whether or not you fight Ho-Oh or Lugia first. Crystal solves this by having both of the birds be L70 postgame catches and giving more focus to Suicune, instead.

Same goes for Ruby and Sapphire. Which story is canon, the one with Team Magma and Groudon or Team Aqua and Kyogre? Emerald neatly answers that question by combining both stories into one and allowing you to catch all three members of the Weather Trio.

Rinse and repeat for Diamond and Pearl. Platinum makes it so you don't have to choose between Dialga and Palkia.

TV Tropes has a name for this: Third Option Adaptation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8612760)
From Cyhtia's dialogue in BW, Platinum happens both in the timeline with Black and Black 2, and in the timeline with White and White 2. And not only do the events of Platinum happen in both timelines, the Trainer could also have been either gender, and the Trainer could have caught Giratina, or defeated it, or calmed it by not fighting it, and every combination of those possibilities is valid in the Gen V games.

So we have Platinum, Black, White, and their sequels, happening over two timelines, whose heroes' identities (and in Platinum's case, some of their actions) we can interpret however we like.

Admittedly, this bit does leave out people who played Diamond and/or Pearl but not Platinum, but again, that happens because of the existence of different versions rather than the existence of different timelines. Though Giratina is present in Diamond and Pearl, so one could still try fitting them in even if it isn't the main Pokémon.

As I said, I think the Gen 5 games actually acknowledge the existence of parallel universes, so they handle this issue far better than the other games that lack Third Versions. Memory Link (or a similar feature) is something that I wouldn't mind seeing return in future games.

RandomDSdevel February 9th, 2015 3:17 PM

So how do you guys think using a feature like Memory Link would impact how users play through sequels? I assume that your player character from the ΩR/αS timeline's counterparts to G/S/C/HG/SS would face off against your player character from the ΩR/αS timeline's counterparts to R/G/B/Y/FR/LG once the former reached Mt. Silver, but what else could happen if events in one game depended on how you played through one of its prequels?

CloverCamerupt February 9th, 2015 7:19 PM

If they do end up shilling Kanto for a fourth time then i hope they at least dont pull another ORAS and make the game disappointing.

Im talking about things like:
-Cutting Firered/Leafgreen content like the sevii islands
-Copypasting the battle maison AGAIN
-Supereasy difficulty
-Getting handed legendaries (latias or latios in ORAS)
-Megas shoved ingracefully into the storyline
-Nearly absent postgame beyond another glorified fetchquest like the delta edisode

But of course all game freak sees is piles of parents yen and dollars for TEH NEW POGEYMANZ GAEM

Mega_Kris February 9th, 2015 7:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSamaritan (Post 8613141)
I don't even understand how Yellow couldn't be considered a canon title. It's a version of one of the mainline games, simple as that. And I think if the anime were anywhere near the popularity it was back in the day, they'd still be doing little cross-over cameos for in-game trainers as well.

Yellow was a product of it's time for sure, but it also introduced features that future games have undeniabley drawn from, such as pokemon following and surfing/flying pikachu events.

Yellow added similar features in today's time, but it took a while. There are a dozen reasons of why pokemon isn't canon. there's absolutely no reference to it back then. and when there is, its easily contradicted by another aspect.

CloverCamerupt February 9th, 2015 7:26 PM

I dont even think there is a canon anymore after that delta episode multiverse stuff

Mega_Kris February 9th, 2015 7:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CloverCamerupt (Post 8613356)
I dont even think there is a canon anymore after that delta episode multiverse stuff

If yellow is an alterante universe, then yes its canon...but its not interconnected to any other game.

BettyNewbie February 9th, 2015 7:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8613365)
If yellow is an alterante universe, then yes its canon...but its not interconnected to any other game.

Then, how do you explain Red having a L81 Pikachu and all three Starters in GSC?

Mega_Kris February 9th, 2015 8:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8613375)
Then, how do you explain Red having a L81 Pikachu and all three Starters in GSC?

The same way you explain how Blue/Green "DOESN'T" have an eevee, vaporeon, flareon, or Jolteon.

Mago Luis February 9th, 2015 8:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8612897)
TV Tropes has a name for this: Third Option Adaptation.

As I said, I think the Gen 5 games actually acknowledge the existence of parallel universes, so they handle this issue far better than the other games that lack Third Versions. Memory Link (or a similar feature) is something that I wouldn't mind seeing return in future games.

I think anything like Memory Link could remove the need to ignore or adapt any previous versions. Even just keeping references to previous games ambiguous enough that they can be interpreted as being any of the different versions (and ideally as having been experienced by either protagonist in different ways) would prevent any of these clashes and choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomDSdevel (Post 8613129)
So how do you guys think using a feature like Memory Link would impact how users play through sequels? I assume that your player character from the ΩR/αS timeline's counterparts to G/S/C/HG/SS would face off against your player character from the ΩR/αS timeline's counterparts to R/G/B/Y/FR/LG once the former reached Mt. Silver, but what else could happen if events in one game depended on how you played through one of its prequels?

Well, events from previous generations don't usually have much effect on the main stories of later games. But there could be references by name to the character the player used in the Kanto re-remakes if that gets implemented in GSC re-remakes. Just to establish your previous character is part of your continuity.

We also could unlock is something like the Celebi event, but with the Kanto hero from the linked game. Or memories with Team Rocket members discussing their return after the team was disbanded, mentioning the linked player.

BettyNewbie February 9th, 2015 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8613415)
The same way you explain how Blue/Green "DOESN'T" have an eevee, vaporeon, flareon, or Jolteon.

Easy, he boxed his Starter, just like he boxed his Fearow and Rattata during Yellow, itself. (Same applies to Magneton, Sandslash, and Cloyster. He felt like they had failed him by losing to Red, so he boxed them all for stronger Pokémon.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8613434)
I think anything like Memory Link could remove the need to ignore or adapt any previous versions. Even just keeping references to previous games ambiguous enough that they can be interpreted as being any of the different versions (and ideally as having been experienced by either protagonist in different ways) would prevent any of these clashes and choices.

Yeah, that would be the easiest solution, make it so all choices and options are equally canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8613434)
Well, events from previous generations don't usually have much effect on the main stories of later games.

Only if they continue making every Generation a semi-reboot that puts you in a brand new region with few to no connections to any of the previous games. If they want to do another GSC, a Generation that's a direct sequel to the previous one, this is something they'll have to deal with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago Luis (Post 8613434)
But there could be references by name to the character the player used in the Kanto re-remakes if that gets implemented in GSC re-remakes. Just to establish your previous character is part of your continuity.

We also could unlock is something like the Celebi event, but with the Kanto hero from the linked game. Or memories with Team Rocket members discussing their return after the team was disbanded, mentioning the linked player.

That would be awesome. It's a shame HGSS didn't do something similar with Dual Slot Mode.

Mega_Kris February 9th, 2015 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8613453)
Easy, he boxed his Starter, just like he boxed his Fearow and Rattata during Yellow, itself. (Same applies to Magneton, Sandslash, and Cloyster. He felt like they had failed him by losing to Red, so he boxed them all for stronger Pokémon.)

and having all starters is nothing more than being based on nothing. in Yellow, you hae the capabilities of gaining all starter, but that doesn't mean that one version canonically has more pokemon than the other. Red for the most part could've caught all starter pokemon within the 8 year period. but overall, i find it rather ridiculous to hold onto that little slither of evidence when theres more contradicting it.

BettyNewbie February 9th, 2015 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8613456)
and having all starters is nothing more than being based on nothing. in Yellow, you hae the capabilities of gaining all starter, but that doesn't mean that one version canonically has more pokemon than the other. Red for the most part could've caught all starter pokemon within the 8 year period. but overall, i find it rather ridiculous to hold onto that little slither of evidence when theres more contradicting it.

What "8 year period"? Only three years separate RBY from GSC.

Red having all three Starters is pretty significant, as Yellow is the only game where you can literally own all three of them. (Yes, you can trade them in from other games or get them as gifts from Stadium in Red/Blue, but none of those Starters will have your name and Trainer ID. Only in Yellow can you get all three under your name and Trainer ID.)

And, there's no special Pikachu gift or event in Red/Blue, and Red's team was pretty obviously meant to be entirely made up of in-game gifts and events. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been 100% neutral.

Mega_Kris February 10th, 2015 6:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8613539)
What "8 year period"? Only three years separate RBY from GSC.

Red having all three Starters is pretty significant, as Yellow is the only game where you can literally own all three of them. (Yes, you can trade them in from other games or get them as gifts from Stadium in Red/Blue, but none of those Starters will have your name and Trainer ID. Only in Yellow can you get all three under your name and Trainer ID.)

And, there's no special Pikachu gift or event in Red/Blue, and Red's team was pretty obviously meant to be entirely made up of in-game gifts and events. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been 100% neutral.

If it matters that much for Red, it should matter even more for Blue not to have the pokemon in the other games. Again, GSC had plenty of chances to make even more references to Yellow, but the pokemon roster of Ash isn't exactly strong enough for me. if the beach house (or ruins of the beach house), jessie, james, and meowth were shown, it would've been interesting. heck there was a chance to make them executives.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 10th, 2015 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8613453)
Easy, he boxed his Starter, just like he boxed his Fearow and Rattata during Yellow, itself. (Same applies to Magneton, Sandslash, and Cloyster. He felt like they had failed him by losing to Red, so he boxed them all for stronger Pokémon.)



Yeah, that would be the easiest solution, make it so all choices and options are equally canon.



Only if they continue making every Generation a semi-reboot that puts you in a brand new region with few to no connections to any of the previous games. If they want to do another GSC, a Generation that's a direct sequel to the previous one, this is something they'll have to deal with.



That would be awesome. It's a shame HGSS didn't do something similar with Dual Slot Mode.

Blue boxing his Eeveelution though seems...well a little out of character seeing how he was suppose to evolve as a character after that loss...then again people don't change quickly either...he still says "Smell ya later" by XY's time...
Either way if they remake Yellow and eventually Crystal I hope the Crystal remake would have his eeveelution.

Also I think that a Kanto re-remake should give Mega Eeveelutions for the Kanto eeveelutions. Raichu (Pikachu) Wigglytuff (Jigglypuff) and Eevee's evolutions are the only popular Gen I pokemon (in Japan at the time of Gen I) that didn't get Megas in XY. Well Pikachu got costume forms and Eevee got another evolution...but Jigglypuff's line got nothing...

BettyNewbie February 10th, 2015 8:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8614573)
Also I think that a Kanto re-remake should give Mega Eeveelutions for the Kanto eeveelutions. Raichu (Pikachu) Wigglytuff (Jigglypuff) and Eevee's evolutions are the only popular Gen I pokemon (in Japan at the time of Gen I) that didn't get Megas in XY. Well Pikachu got costume forms and Eevee got another evolution...but Jigglypuff's line got nothing...

Don't forget poor Dragonite... Only pre-Gen 5 Pseudo to still not have a Mega. :(

Well, Wigglytuff got the Fairy typing. Unfortunately, Clefable did, too, so Wigglytuff remains outclassed.

What Jigglypuff could really use is a Light Ball-type item of its own, maybe one that doubles its Attack/Sp. Attack/Speed. Ideally, Wigglytuff could use it, too, but GF seems to regard Wigglytuff in a similar way as Raichu.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 11th, 2015 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8614627)
Don't forget poor Dragonite... Only pre-Gen 5 Pseudo to still not have a Mega. :(

Well, Wigglytuff got the Fairy typing. Unfortunately, Clefable did, too, so Wigglytuff remains outclassed.

What Jigglypuff could really use is a Light Ball-type item of its own, maybe one that doubles its Attack/Sp. Attack/Speed. Ideally, Wigglytuff could use it, too, but GF seems to regard Wigglytuff in a similar way as Raichu.

Well if you look at what seems could be a pattern GF did T and G (II and IV) then they did the Hoenn Psuedo duo (III) so they went from outward to inward and now they'll likely go outward again to do Mega Dragonite and Mega Hydreigon in the next game.
Well at least Dragonite has company in the champion aces without Megas...ORAS didn't give make a Mega Milotic for Wallace when they could've (Flygon also didn't despite being popular and taking the Lati's place in the opening of Emerald).

On the topic of Megas if GF recreates the original opening from the Gen I games will they have Nidorino fight Mega Gengar? Or will the two be replaced like how ORAS replaced the Pokemon battling in RS and Emerald with (Megas) Camerupt and Sharpedo. Or perhaps have Mega Nidoking versus Mega Gengar.

Since Hoenn's E4 got Megas post game chances are likely for aces of Kanto E4. Mega Dragonite is obvious. Agatha will very likely get Mega Gengar. Now Bruno...Mega Machamp needs to happen. Lorelei could use...Mega Lapras? Or will she end up getting Mega Slowbro? (I know it's not ice and that will bother me).

BettyNewbie February 11th, 2015 9:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8615071)
Well if you look at what seems could be a pattern GF did T and G (II and IV) then they did the Hoenn Psuedo duo (III) so they went from outward to inward and now they'll likely go outward again to do Mega Dragonite and Mega Hydreigon in the next game.

If they're waiting to introduce Mega Dragonite alongside Mega Hydreigon... Could that possibly mean that Mega Dragonite will be Dragon/Fairy? I mean, why else would they hold off on introducing it if they weren't going to do something major with it like a type change? And, a Dragon/Fairy Dragonite would contrast nicely against Hydreigon, good dragon vs evil dragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8615071)
Well at least Dragonite has company in the champion aces without Megas...ORAS didn't give make a Mega Milotic for Wallace when they could've (Flygon also didn't despite being popular and taking the Lati's place in the opening of Emerald).

Sadly, I think Wallace has been largely retconned out of being a Champion, especially if those Emerald features left out of ORAS end up never returning to the games. That's probably why they didn't even bother giving Milotic a Mega. :sideways:

I feel bad for Flygon. It's literally the only Gen 3 Dragon to not have a Mega, and to make matters worse, they have Aarune, the Secret Base expert who has a Flygon as his ace, give you the Mega Stone for GARCHOMP, instead. Talk about a middle finger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8615071)
On the topic of Megas if GF recreates the original opening from the Gen I games will they have Nidorino fight Mega Gengar? Or will the two be replaced like how ORAS replaced the Pokemon battling in RS and Emerald with (Megas) Camerupt and Sharpedo. Or perhaps have Mega Nidoking versus Mega Gengar.

Well, if it's a Yellow remake, we'll get this opening, but with Cosplay Pikachu.

As someone who owned Blue instead of Red, I'd like to see the Jigglypuff vs Gengar battle return in paired remakes (or, at least, the Blue one)--Never liked how FRLG ignored it over Red's Nidorino vs Gengar intro.

Either intro, though, would probably have Mega Gengar. Not sure about Nidorino/Jigglypuff, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8615071)
Since Hoenn's E4 got Megas post game chances are likely for aces of Kanto E4. Mega Dragonite is obvious. Agatha will very likely get Mega Gengar. Now Bruno...Mega Machamp needs to happen. Lorelei could use...Mega Lapras? Or will she end up getting Mega Slowbro? (I know it's not ice and that will bother me).

Agatha will obviously have Mega Gengar. Since Machamp/Golem are likely to get Megas for parity with Alakazam/Gengar, that has Bruno covered, too.

Lorelei could have either Lapras or Jynx, although most likely the former, considering GF's hatred for the latter. Mega Lapras, though, is likely to drop its Ice typing for either mono-Water, Water/Fairy, or Water/Dragon, but that doesn't bother me. (Mega Jynx, if she happens, I'd prefer to be Ice/Fairy).

Lance, of course, will get his Dragon/Fairy Mega Dragonite, perfect for a beautiful fairytale knight like him. {<3}

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 11th, 2015 6:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8615125)
If they're waiting to introduce Mega Dragonite alongside Mega Hydreigon... Could that possibly mean that Mega Dragonite will be Dragon/Fairy? I mean, why else would they hold off on introducing it if they weren't going to do something major with it like a type change? And, a Dragon/Fairy Dragonite would contrast nicely against Hydreigon, good dragon vs evil dragon.



Sadly, I think Wallace has been largely retconned out of being a Champion, especially if those Emerald features left out of ORAS end up never returning to the games. That's probably why they didn't even bother giving Milotic a Mega. :sideways:

I feel bad for Flygon. It's literally the only Gen 3 Dragon to not have a Mega, and to make matters worse, they have Aarune, the Secret Base expert who has a Flygon as his ace, give you the Mega Stone for GARCHOMP, instead. Talk about a middle finger.



Well, if it's a Yellow remake, we'll get this opening, but with Cosplay Pikachu.

As someone who owned Blue instead of Red, I'd like to see the Jigglypuff vs Gengar battle return in paired remakes (or, at least, the Blue one)--Never liked how FRLG ignored it over Red's Nidorino vs Gengar intro.

Either intro, though, would probably have Mega Gengar. Not sure about Nidorino/Jigglypuff, though.



Agatha will obviously have Mega Gengar. Since Machamp/Golem are likely to get Megas for parity with Alakazam/Gengar, that has Bruno covered, too.

Lorelei could have either Lapras or Jynx, although most likely the former, considering GF's hatred for the latter. Mega Lapras, though, is likely to drop its Ice typing for either mono-Water, Water/Fairy, or Water/Dragon, but that doesn't bother me. (Mega Jynx, if she happens, I'd prefer to be Ice/Fairy).

Lance, of course, will get his Dragon/Fairy Mega Dragonite, perfect for a beautiful fairytale knight like him. {<3}

I will feel kind of bad for Altaria...it's Mega's unique typing won't be unique much longer if they do that. You bring up an interesting point in thinking that they will contrast the Pseudos...as XY's were both related to sandstorms (in addition to being the odd gen Megas), while as I said ORAS had both Hoenn Pseudos. If Dragonite doesn't get Dragon/Fairy or keeps it's typing then they should make Dragonite Dragon/Water and give it the ability multiscale or Drizzle (this one as it's pre-evolutions had some ability to control the weather according to dex entries).

Well I don't think they retcon Wallace out of being champion if the ending of the Delta Episode is any indication (perhaps we'll see Mega Milotic in a couple of year once Delta Emerald is made...I hope...). Let's just hope that GF doesn't end up saving Dragonite for potential HGSS remakes...


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