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-   -   6th Gen Primal Reversion Discussion & Speculation Thread (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=325811)

DJTiki June 9th, 2014 5:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISA56 2.0 (Post 8292339)
I'm actually interested in Ancient Devolution because not only does it not really make sense from a biological standpoint and I'm interested to see how Game Freak justifies it, but also I'm interested in how it affects the Pokemon in general. A lot of Pokemon are being implied or mentioned as having different attributes in the distant past (Gastrodon having a shell, Magikarp explicitly being stronger long ago, etc.), and it will be interesting to see each stage of a Pokemon's "Darwinian evolution", as it were.

I personally believe this is a new way to enchance all the legendary Pokémon. And maybe some Pokèmon with Prehistoric background will get one too, but its kinda hard to speculate that considering Aerodactyl had a mega evolution. So I'm just guessing this is a "Legendary-exclusive" mechanic. I mean all Legendaries, had some form of history. Especially Zekrom and Reshiram(who I would love to see fuse) and Arceus, who supposeldy had 1000 arms(oh dear god no)

DJTiki June 9th, 2014 5:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8292001)
Technically their original forms are these two, and it's RSE forms are it's weaker evolved forms (evolved in a more real life sense rather than Metamorphosis), sort of like Origin forme Giratina is Giratina's original form (for now at least...).

Other than Rayquaza we may see the fossils get them. They could ditch the rock type maybe and get something else. Armaldo could get Bug/Water, Cradlily could get Grass/Water or keep Rock/Grass, Rampardos will keep it's Rock type as most like it was a rock type originally, Archeops could get Dragon/Flying, Kabutops could be Water/Bug, Carracosta could keep it's Water/ Rock type or become Water/Steel, Omastar could stay Rock/Water, Tyrantrum could become pure Dragon, and Aurorus pure Ice. Genosect could become pure bug, and Relicanth could keep it's normal type.

I really hope so, mainly because its a little sketchy considering Aerodactyl had a mega evolution, and its a fossil. So hopefully, they can use this mechanic for all legendaries, as well as the fossil, and change Aerodactyl's mega, to a devolution.

Jakeremix June 9th, 2014 7:31 AM

I really thought it would be exclusive to Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza, and I don't think it's as big of change as we think it is. I just really want to know exactly it's called in English because that will make things clearer.

Leaf Magics June 9th, 2014 8:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepperton (Post 8291972)
Interesting concept. Maybe they create new moves to support Groudon and Kyogre's new forms, with a theme surrounding prehistoric times. When the legendary reverts back to its original form, it would probably retain the move, though. Not sure how that would work, but interesting nonetheless. What I think will really interesting is how many other Pokemon receive devolutions, if any.

This would be great. Kyogre could get something like Great Flood, Groudon something like Supervolcano, and Rayquaza something like Meteor Crash.

Although I think the moves may disappear after they revert to their normal forme. It could work by replacing one of their attacks with the new forme's signature attack during the transformation. Kyogre could get Water Spout replaced, Groudon Eruption, and Rayquaza could perhaps have Outrage replaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8292001)
Technically their original forms are these two, and it's RSE forms are it's weaker evolved forms (evolved in a more real life sense rather than Metamorphosis), sort of like Origin forme Giratina is Giratina's original form (for now at least...).

Other than Rayquaza we may see the fossils get them. They could ditch the rock type maybe and get something else. Armaldo could get Bug/Water, Cradlily could get Grass/Water or keep Rock/Grass, Rampardos will keep it's Rock type as most like it was a rock type originally, Archeops could get Dragon/Flying, Kabutops could be Water/Bug, Carracosta could keep it's Water/ Rock type or become Water/Steel, Omastar could stay Rock/Water, Tyrantrum could become pure Dragon, and Aurorus pure Ice. Genosect could become pure bug, and Relicanth could keep it's normal type.

You've convinced me on the Fossils getting Devolutions, but I think it may be done slightly differently. It would be separate from Ancient Devolution and Mega Evolution. It could be Fossil Devolution.

One of the scientists in Ambrette Town says that Pokémon that can be restored from Fossils might have something to do with Mega Evolution. It could be that she was referring to a similar process that only Fossil Pokémon can undergo.

If it is so, this could mean that Fossil Devolution would be similar to Mega Evolution in that it would activate during battle and would also count as your team's Mega Evolution, so that you couldn't Fossil Devolve one of your Pokémon and then Mega Evolve another of your Pokémon in the same battle (I think the same will apply to Ancient Devolution).

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 8:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakeremix (Post 8292494)
I really thought it would be exclusive to Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza, and I don't think it's as big of change as we think it is. I just really want to know exactly it's called in English because that will make things clearer.

Yeah, an official translation would be good. Also I want them to clear up if we should be calling them formes or not...I think they're like Megas but the other way but with the same power boost.

I think that perhaps the creation trio (even Giratina who could have white wings if he is indeed based on Satan...) and the Lake trio in addition to Arceus and Mew could have one. Mew seems the most likely out of those I listed just now, seeing how it's the ancestor of all Pokemon. Perhaps it's ancient Devolution looked like Mewtwo. It'll make more sense if Mew gave birth to Mewtwo (according to FrLg) if it were the size of the current Mewtwo.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 8:27 AM

Great Flood, and Super Volcano sound awesome. Perhaps Rayquaza's could be called Extinction Meteor.

DJTiki June 9th, 2014 8:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8292555)
Great Flood, and Super Volcano sound awesome. Perhaps Rayquaza's could be called Extinction Meteor.

Personally, the signature moves should go about like this
Kyogre: Tsunami(120 base powered Surf, chance to paralysis)
Groudon: Volcanic Tremor(120 base powered Earthquake, chance to burn)
Rayquaza: Dragon Crush(120 base powered Dragon Claw, chance to flinch)

Well at least, I want that.

Liberal Army June 9th, 2014 9:03 AM

There is a Mega symbol near Kyogre's name in the HP Bar on the screenshot on the Corocoro page. If this is Ancient Devolution, why is it also Mega Evolution then? The weird thing is, Groudon doesn't have that Mega Symbol. Strange, huh?

There will be new moves for Groudon and Kyogre, it is technically confirmed. You can see them using new moves.
I think these new moves are dual-typed moves. Groudon's signature move might be called Magma Tremor/Volcanic Tremor and is a Ground-type move, but also doing damage like how it would be as a Fire type move. (Same thing as Flying Press).

Kyogre's move might be Great Flood/Downpour and is a Water-type move that also does damage like an Ice/Psychic type move.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 9:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberal Army (Post 8292595)
There is a Mega symbol near Kyogre's name in the HP Bar on the screenshot on the Corocoro page. If this is Ancient Devolution, why is it also Mega Evolution then? The weird thing is, Groudon doesn't have that Mega Symbol. Strange, huh?

There will be new moves for Groudon and Kyogre, it is technically confirmed. You can see them using new moves.
I think these new moves are dual-typed moves. Groudon's signature move might be called Magma Tremor/Volcanic Tremor and is a Ground-type move, but also doing damage like how it would be as a Fire type move. (Same thing as Flying Press).

Kyogre's move might be Great Flood/Downpour and is a Water-type move that also does damage like an Ice/Psychic type move.

I think it's because Prehistoric devolution are likely just Mega Evolutions, but that calls back the Pokemon's lost power rather than giving them power like in the case with the other stones.

Jakeremix June 9th, 2014 9:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8292547)
Yeah, an official translation would be good. Also I want them to clear up if we should be calling them formes or not...I think they're like Megas but the other way but with the same power boost.

I think that perhaps the creation trio (even Giratina who could have white wings if he is indeed based on Satan...) and the Lake trio in addition to Arceus and Mew could have one. Mew seems the most likely out of those I listed just now, seeing how it's the ancestor of all Pokemon. Perhaps it's ancient Devolution looked like Mewtwo. It'll make more sense if Mew gave birth to Mewtwo (according to FrLg) if it were the size of the current Mewtwo.

Dialga already has one. :P

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 9:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakeremix (Post 8292614)
Dialga already has one. :P

Primal Dialga will be able to be used in battle :P ?

Leaf Magics June 9th, 2014 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8292555)
Great Flood, and Super Volcano sound awesome. Perhaps Rayquaza's could be called Extinction Meteor.

Extinction Meteor may be better. I was trying to link Rayquaza's attack to the asteroids that crashed with Earth during its formation.

Kyogre's is of course linked with the flood myths, while Groudon's is linked with the large supervolcano eruptions that happened many years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJTiKi (Post 8292562)
Personally, the signature moves should go about like this
Kyogre: Tsunami(120 base powered Surf, chance to paralysis)
Groudon: Volcanic Tremor(120 base powered Earthquake, chance to burn)
Rayquaza: Dragon Crush(120 base powered Dragon Claw, chance to flinch)

Well at least, I want that.

Those would work too, I just suggested the ones I did because of the ancient theme. Rayquaza's attack is harder to decide. Besides an attack explicitly relating to dragons, something to do with meteors or ozone would also fit nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberal Army (Post 8292595)
There is a Mega symbol near Kyogre's name in the HP Bar on the screenshot on the Corocoro page. If this is Ancient Devolution, why is it also Mega Evolution then? The weird thing is, Groudon doesn't have that Mega Symbol. Strange, huh?

There will be new moves for Groudon and Kyogre, it is technically confirmed. You can see them using new moves.
I think these new moves are dual-typed moves. Groudon's signature move might be called Magma Tremor/Volcanic Tremor and is a Ground-type move, but also doing damage like how it would be as a Fire type move. (Same thing as Flying Press).

Kyogre's move might be Great Flood/Downpour and is a Water-type move that also does damage like an Ice/Psychic type move.

I think that Ancient Groudon and Kyogre will get unique symbols for them. Kyogre's will be light blue with an Alpha symbol on it, and Groudon's will be red with an Omega symbol on it. Groudon's symbol is hard to notice because it would be red and be against a background with other warm colors, while Kyogre's is easy to see because it is light blue against a dark background in the screenshots.

This was another reason why I thought Fossil Devolution would be separate from Ancient Devolution, because Ancient would use unique symbols for it and be reserved for the mascots.

Also, dual-type ancient moves would be another great choice in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8292598)
I think it's because Prehistoric devolution are likely just Mega Evolutions, but that calls back the Pokemon's lost power rather than giving them power like in the case with the other stones.

Well, I came up with it because someone mentioned making Aerodactyl's Mega into a Devolution.

Jakeremix June 9th, 2014 9:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8292621)
Primal Dialga will be able to be used in battle :P ?

pshh yeah ofc

I was just joking. xP

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 9:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakeremix (Post 8292641)
pshh yeah ofc

I was just joking. xP

I know, but how awesome would it be if it really was used.

Leaf Magics June 9th, 2014 9:42 AM

I already posted part of this elsewehere, but it would be appropriate here too.

I think that Ancient Groudon and Kyogre will get unique symbols for them. Kyogre's will be light blue with an Alpha symbol on it, and Groudon's will be red with an Omega symbol on it. Groudon's symbol is hard to notice because it would be red and be against a background with other warm colors, while Kyogre's is easy to see because it is light blue against a dark background in the screenshots.

Also, I think Ancient Devolving will count as Mega Evolving in that you will not be able to Ancient Evolve and also Mega Evolve another Pokémon in the same battle.

Altairis June 9th, 2014 9:45 AM

Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I think only Rayquaza would get one since its in a trio, but I can't see anyone else getting it since the other legends are rulers of a specific element and it would kinda suck if Dialga lost control of time (as demonstrated in PMD) or Palkia lost the ability to keep space in order (like in the Almia Ranger event) due to time passing and them not being as powerful. Ocean and land don't really need any legends to keep them in check after they were created.

Jakeremix June 9th, 2014 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altairis (Post 8292652)
Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I'm aware. It's still crazy how similar he is to Primal Kyogre/Groudon, but I don't really think it will still be "Primal" in English, so that'll be where the similarities end.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altairis (Post 8292652)
Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I think only Rayquaza would get one since its in a trio, but I can't see anyone else getting it since the other legends are rulers of a specific element and it would kinda suck if Dialga lost control of time (as demonstrated in PMD) or Palkia lost the ability to keep space in order (like in the Almia Ranger event) due to time passing and them not being as powerful. Ocean and land don't really need any legends to keep them in check after they were created.

Good point...
Well I guess that Xerneas and Yvetal could get one considering they give life and take it, but they don't necessary influence all life and death unlike how Dialga and Palkia influence Space-Time. Or maybe just Zygarde...

I think though that may actually end up making some other kind evolution to make them special, well at least Zygarde.

SnowpointQuincy June 9th, 2014 10:06 AM

The Weather Trio are "Super Ancient Pokemon". These form changes represent their true power from thousands of years ago.

These will be regular form changes like all the other Legend Form Changes. The name is just flavor specific to them.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnowpointQuincy (Post 8292686)
The Weather Trio are "Super Ancient Pokemon". These form changes represent their true power from thousands of years ago.

These will be regular form changes like all the other Legend Form Changes. The name is just flavor specific to them.

I don't think so, why would they be compared to Mega Evolution if they're just formes? They are most likely Mega Evolution style formes but that call upon the ancient power and are battle only.

Pepperton June 9th, 2014 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Magics (Post 8292542)
Although I think the moves may disappear after they revert to their normal forme. It could work by replacing one of their attacks with the new forme's signature attack during the transformation. Kyogre could get Water Spout replaced, Groudon Eruption, and Rayquaza could perhaps have Outrage replaced.

That would suffice, seeing as their new signature moves would probably be just as, if not more powerful than their regular forms' signature moves. Possibly in an upcoming release like E3 or the Get TV spot, I want them to explain these forms' relevance in ORAS and to the plot of the remakes, because right now there's not much known about devolution. In X and Y, Mega evolution was explained quite thoroughly in-game, so hopefully they'll treat this similarly.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepperton (Post 8292890)
That would suffice, seeing as their new signature moves would probably just as, if not more powerful than their regular forms' signature moves. Possibly in an upcoming release like E3 or the Get TV spot, I want them to explain these forms' relevance in ORAS and to the plot of the remakes, because right now there's not much known about devolution. In X and Y, Mega evolution was explained quite thoroughly in-game, so hopefully they'll treat this similarly.

I want to know more about them too, but I'm getting a sense that they'll save the explanation for next month so we'll be hyped during the rest of the month...

I think Steven or the leaders of Aqua and Magma will explain it to us during the giant clash and they turn into those forms.

"HoneyClaws" June 9th, 2014 1:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISA56 2.0 (Post 8292339)
I'm actually interested in Ancient Devolution because not only does it not really make sense from a biological standpoint and I'm interested to see how Game Freak justifies it, but also I'm interested in how it affects the Pokemon in general. A lot of Pokemon are being implied or mentioned as having different attributes in the distant past (Gastrodon having a shell, Magikarp explicitly being stronger long ago, etc.), and it will be interesting to see each stage of a Pokemon's "Darwinian evolution", as it were.

Standard evolution in pokemon already is incorrect with the scientific definition of the term so how this is percieved shouldnt be a shock. Though they can easily just say this is just an AWAKENING state for the creation legendaries and not really a transformation.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire June 9th, 2014 2:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "HoneyClaws" (Post 8293072)
Standard evolution in pokemon already is incorrect with the scientific definition of the term so how this is percieved shouldnt be a shock. Though they can easily day this is just an AWAKENING state for the creation legendaries and not really a transformation.

They should've done that with Mewtwo Y...alas they didn't call it Awakened Mewtwo. Apparently Megas are close to "Awakened" states, so in a way it could be seeing how Ancient devolution is similar to Mega Evolution.

fenyx4 June 9th, 2014 4:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avant Garde (Post 8292151)
So as shown in the recent Corocoro leaks, Kyogre and Groudon receive a "Mega Evolution"-esque process known as Ancient Devolution. Apparently not much is known about this new "mechanic" other than this is used by Kyogre and Groudon to like tap to its primeval roots.

Well, at this time only Kyogre and Groudon are capable of this regression.

Do you think there will be more Pokemon subject to this primal regression? Do you think this is a new mechanic introduced in the games that is completely different from Mega Evolution? Is Ancient Devolution just some sort of weird fancy name for Mega Evolution for Kyogre and Groudon and nothing else?

Discuss!

Note: This thread is for speculating Ancient Devolutions and not for Kyogre and Groudon. As much as possible speculate them in the other thread.

For the process of "Atomic Regression/Ancient 'Devolution'" (I'm going to use the term "Atomic Regression" hereafter until the English name is confirmed; 'devolution' justs makes things even more convoluted than they are @[email protected]), I hope that only Rayquaza is capable of it. I imagine that the "Primeval" Formes/states of Groudon and Kyogre will have more than 10 measly points added to their Base Stat Totals (BSTs) to showcase their unadulterated strength, so if Rayquaza is going to continue to be the "mediator" of the "Super-ancient Pokemon/Weather Trio", Rayquaza will likely need a similar power boost to match or surpass its weather-manipulating brethren..

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISA56 2.0 (Post 8292339)
I'm actually interested in Ancient Devolution because not only does it not really make sense from a biological standpoint and I'm interested to see how Game Freak justifies it, but also I'm interested in how it affects the Pokemon in general. A lot of Pokemon are being implied or mentioned as having different attributes in the distant past (Gastrodon having a shell, Magikarp explicitly being stronger long ago, etc.), and it will be interesting to see each stage of a Pokemon's "Darwinian evolution", as it were.

That would be interesting, although I'd probably be fine if said Pokemon got Mega Evolutions of some sort instead (which has at least been satisfied with Magikarp's evolution and the fossil Pokemon Aerodactyl..)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altairis (Post 8292652)
Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I think only Rayquaza would get one since its in a trio, but I can't see anyone else getting it since the other legends are rulers of a specific element and it would kinda suck if Dialga lost control of time (as demonstrated in PMD) or Palkia lost the ability to keep space in order (like in the Almia Ranger event) due to time passing and them not being as powerful. Ocean and land don't really need any legends to keep them in check after they were created.

Regarding the "state of mind" thing, I recall reading somewhere (my memory's fuzzy at the moment; I would like to say the dialogue was from a non-playable character (NPC) during Pokemon Emerald's Weather Trio crisis, or maybe from someone in the Pokemon anime during the Advanced Generation saga) that Groudon and Kyogre fight with each other not because they want to indulge in such combat, but because they cannot control their own powers (similar to this "Primal Dialga" that I keep encountering on the Internet). "Primeval" Groudon and Kyogre could entail an induced mental regression to an "ancient" state of mind where they kept their powers unchecked during the early state of the Pokemon World/Earth. With the removal of the mental blocks that confined the expression of their powers, Groudon and Kyogre subsequently gain immense, unrestrained abilities (sporting physical changes that better reflect their primordial appearances) and loose their raw elemental energies in battle.

I think Dialga gaining an abnormal "Atomic/Ancient Regression" state would be a nice tie-in with the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series (and more sensible, since Dialga's affinity with the concept of time allows it to date back to/interact with ancient eras and such), although I really don't think it is necessary... Additionally, one for the "original dragon" that involves Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem would be neat to see, although I think traces of the "original dragon" manifest nicely as Black Kyurem and White Kyurem. Anything else is pushing it, in my opinion. Aside from the Weather Trio, only Pokemon that are legendary version mascots and/or have a Base Stat Total around 680 (specifically, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Heatran, Regigigas, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde) should be qualified as "Atomic/Ancient Regression" candidates, in my opinion; nevertheless, I think that the Weather Trio are the best suited/"ancient" to pull off the concept of "Atomic/Ancient Regression" well. Most of the group that I just mentioned are powerful enough (bar Regigigas due to its hindering Ability of Slow Start) and demonstrate their "legendary" Abilities reasonably well, so I'd prefer it if they didn't get any more power boosts.

[QUOTE="HoneyClaws";8293072]Standard evolution in pokemon already is incorrect with the scientific definition of the term so how this is percieved shouldnt be a shock. Though they can easily day this is just an AWAKENING state for the creation legendaries and not really a transformation.[/QUOTE]

"Awakening" seems more like a mental thing in my opinion, although modern media (particularly videogames) tend to treat 'awakening' as a fancy term for a [URL="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperMode"]Super Mode[/URL], regardless of whether physical alterations are exhibitied or not... "Awakening" would probably make sense more than "devolution/regression"... the Weather Trio were apparently asleep/dormant for a long time before Team Magma and Team Aqua rudely interrupted their centuries-/millenia-long nap, so maybe they need some time to get themselves together before displaying their true ferocity (similar to the perception of how the Slow Start Ability for Regigigas reflects how it struggles to get primed for battle after so many years of being inactive).

---

As for devolution in terms of "reverse metamorphosis" (like Raichu becoming a Pikachu), it would be an interesting mechanic for most non-legendary Pokemon (although then we would really be veering into Digimon territory {XD}).


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