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I personally think that forcing anyone to talk competitively if they don't feel like it (like if talking about other stuffs, they will be muted) is not a good idea, since most of us are just here for some good chat, not just about battling stuffs, and I fear that many users will feel rejected if that happens, and it will ruin PC Battle Server as a whole.
I'm wondering, if there should be a second lobby dedicated to the competitive battling, so that anyone who talks about competitive stuffs can talk freely in the special room, meanwhile anyone who will talk about casual stuffs can go to our usual Lobby. |
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Okay edit ----' More important than chat moderation is the server's purpose and the perception that its exclusively a place to log on and chat like an irc. I think chat should be moderated lightly in the future but right now there needs to be a culture change since right now people might be getting deterred from getting involved if pokedra and magics posts are anything to go by. |
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Wolf also stated that it should take priority, meaning if the group is discussing competitive topics, then nobody should derail it with some meaningless topic when a healthy discussion is happening about battling on a battling server. I'd have to agree with Karp about the idea that if all you really want is a chat, then the IRC is a much more suitable place. @Wolf: About voice, I mean, I don't really care. I feel like voice is a useless / pointless rank in the first place. I figure its only true use is to notify new users that "Yes, I am experienced at battling and know what I'm talking about for the most part." That's why I feel it should only be provided to battlers. I understand a lot of people like the idea of it making them feel "included" in the group of regulars, but it's literally a useless rank as far as I'm concerned (maybe you can broadcast /data commands and normal members can't I don't know). Those who require a + (or I guess an = now) next to their name in order to feel included in a group friends need to reevaluate the reasons they're on the server. Nobody is going to say you're not a regular if you clearly are just because you don't have a +/= next to your name. But like I said. I think it's pointless and my opinion on the matter shouldn't weigh in on the final decision since I honestly don't care how it ends up. @Community Create-a-Team: Anti mentioned it earlier, and I think it's a great idea. I was thinking we could collectively create teams of all the different archetypes of teams (stall / offensive / balanced, etc) for each tier (or at least OU first) and then post them in an archive style for reference to newer users. This should include the team building process (condensed and a link to the thread where we collectively made the team), that way people who are new to OU or a team style can get a sense of how to properly build a team in that style. A short guide on how to play the team should also be provided to assist in developing game-sense for new users. Import should also be provided because I know when I get asked to battle OU I feel bad for rejecting, since I lack a team and an ability to make one since I'm unfamiliar with the whole meta. If there's an import available, as well as a general "here's how to play the team" guide in a single location, I can easily help other people test their OU teams or just casually battle OU. @Elf being dumb: Why |
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>Aero's bottix hole. :) Anyway like i said in my previous post about staff needing a restructure, see here . Maybe voice does too? On one hand people are saying "well gee you cant have non battlers blah blah" and on the other hand you have "yah shouldnt exclude non battlers blah etc". This is what i alluded to in my previous post, its inconsistent. I mean there needs to be a clear cut line on what actually determines how and why people qualify people for such ranks. You could possibly incorporate driver role too or something for battlers and everyone else voice who is considered a regular idk. In a nutshell, you should decide the focus of the server. If its battling focused? Mod and Driver active battlers who are actually active and care about THIS forum (read: not "i come on once a week and am on smogon the rest of the time" or "yeah ive never battled, try to or even relevant in the bs but for some reason im actually on server staff") basically. + everyone else who is a regular probs which includes non battlers. HOWEVER. I disagree with the notion that you should always talk about battling all the time. That gets boring fast. I think the chat flow should be left to be as natural as possible, if it drifts towards competitive and people interrupt with crap then mods should be all like "yo dont interupt". Warning and muting is a bit much though tbh. |
In the past we have given the voice rank to anyone who is a regular for more than a week or so as an experiment after our last restructure and we see now that wasn't the best way to go. It's confusing for new members who log on and see everyone on the server with a rank; many of whom don't deserve it for many reasons. This is why we have decided to restructure the rank and be more consistent on whom we promote. Seeing now that the (=) rank will be the new "voice", I guess we could have the player rank as a reward and recognition for the active battling contributers of the community(although I would have to propose this with wolf and zeffy). It would be unique to our server and a nice way to recognize those who have contributed by battling as opposed to just being a regular. Right now the player rank(which is the star) is just used for contest winners but I think could actually serve a better purpose recognizing the battling community as a permanent rank. Since we are a battle server, our battlers should deserve a recognition.
Also on another note, we do like to keep some structure of ranks so if we set "modchat" we arent just limiting staff to talking. |
So I'm not thrilled about voice being given to non-battlers, and I don't think "just showing up" or "being a regular" is a contribution. We have plenty of regulars who routinely ruin the chat or at the very least could be called negative presences. I can live with wolf's proposal if "notable off-topic chat" isn't the kinds of things Pokedra describes (which I think are overblown, but his general idea of "the chat is often really asinine" is not wrong).
I don't think voice matters though. It's more symbolic anyway. What matters is a cultural shift away from indifference to battling, and perhaps more importantly, a cultural shift away from ignoring or disregarding the people on the server who want a more battle-centric experience. That's kind of why competitive chats being interrupted is so frustrating: off-topic already dominates the server, so when we're talking about the nuances of the Aegislash suspect case, it would be great for us to at least be given the courtesy of talking about it. ANY chat being interrupted is rude, anyway. I agree with D_A's idea of light moderation (just friendly reminders of that) to combat this, and I think that anyone who feels interrupted can also speak up and politely express any feeling of getting drowned out. It's more the principle that competitive battlers shouldn't have to be protected on a battle server. Yeah, non-battlers shouldn't have joined here in the first place when TPC exists, but they're here now so we have to work out a middle ground. "Make a room for competitive chat" is not a middle ground, however, it's the status quo very thinly veiled. We have to be met halfway. Since this server is the ONLY place we can chat about battling, while there are numerous places to do off-topic chat, I would appreciate if everyone could at least empathize with the tough spot the battlers are often in. And to be clear, no one wants to make a 100% competitive chat, ban off-topic chat, kick off non-battlers, etc., so I don't want to see this strawman. Thank you. I do want to come to a solution ASAP on the chat though so we can make to some of the ideas people have been throwing around about clans, leagues, events, tutoring, etc. that will shape the future direction of the forum more, though the chat is definitely important lol. |
Hi! :)
I hope most of you remember me - I've been quiet here for some time and I even see a few call-outs here in this thread (which are surely merited, haha). Reading through all of this, I do love a lot of posts in this thread! Especially most of Anti's, I can really tell there's a lot of passion and thought behind them. I have just a couple of ideas, responses, and points to make, but I'll be as concise as I can where applicable. Firstly, at user MoxieInfinite in particular, since your posts had a certain air to them that none other in this thread have: Spoiler:
In order for this forum and this server to be truly competitive again, it has to begin and be enforced from the roots up. Like Anti pointed out, it starts with the auth - being active and constantly willing to battle will help. Encouraging battling whenever possible will help. If there's no discussion or there is some random-ass discussion going on, talk about something battling-related. Ask for help on a team, or ask someone for fights. Talk to someone about something new you're using. I like how it was suggested we should focus on competitive auth - voice for actively trying to battle outside of randbats is great. If we honestly want this to happen, everyone has to go in hard. No half-assing, no "hey we should be good at battling again" "ok" "hows the weather" things going on anymore. I know I'm not the ~optimal~ guy to be saying this since I'm a ghost here, but it's true. On Clans: No opinion on clans right now. I think it's more important that we focus on attitude and actually doing things first. More people join if they see it's worth joining, and then more people participate in clans... as they say, the more the merrier. On Tutoring: I have some comments on tutoring I would like to make at a later time. I'm in the process of becoming a Smogon tutor, and I've refined my own methods enough that I could help make guides and work with people who are interested in tutoring here. Tutoring here should focus on the "brand new to competitive" types of people that get no attention elsewhere, then focus on helping them achieve bigger and better things while being a great environment so they want to stay here. On Our Tournaments: Spoiler:
On Server Atmosphere: Spoiler:
Random: Let's not ever make a team database, because it won't help us. Team cores and discussing teams will, but making a database of built teams for people to take won't help. IDC if the idea wasn't brought up, I just wanted to clear this in case I ever forget. I just kinda spewed some of my thoughts into this post so sorry if it's unreadable, but I'm tired now and I don't feel like cleaning it up. I plan on being around more, even if I'm not always available to play and such (I have a ton of things to do on Smogon + working full-time now). e: OK cleaned it up a little |
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Yeah I agree with wolf and Vrai that using SmogTours to get better would be a great idea. Perhaps expanding off that, maybe sharing replays and critiquing battling execution might also be helpful? I know this is something that happens on Smogon that could be useful to newer players, and from watching a fair number of battles on our server I would say that it could really make a difference. Also, I think it would help a lot in creating the sort of cultural change we've been talking about by promoting some deal of pride in getting better! That's the kind of idea I was hoping to get when I made this thread, so thank you for posting. :)
On prefixes: I don't understand why these exist, if I'm being honest. Do we really need "battle log" or "event" to alert us to a thread's purpose? I'm not against them really (it's not like they hurt anything), but it's the kind of thing that I think is ultimately rather trivial. Now I don't want to take a turn for the gloomy here, but over the past few days this thought has creeped in so I figured I'd share it. We've had a lot of these threads before, though it's certainly been awhile. I think that if there's a single lesson we can take from the successes and failures of those, it's that ultimately, everyone has to really buy in and make an effort. Jake mentioned the disproportionate veteran/oldie/whatever presence in this thread, and I'm not going to decry that as much as to say that I feel like we need more tangible commitment to something like clans or tutoring from the people who would be the learners. Is there actually a demand for the ideas we're presenting? If so, we'd love to hear that. :) If not, then I don't want anyone to put forth effort that won't be reciprocated. I think that at this point we have plenty of workable ideas that can at least serve as a starting point. Besides the mutual exclusivity of "tutor clans" (curious if there's any more feedback on those?) and a more traditional tutoring set-up, I think most everything that has been brought up--wolf's league, Battle Dojo, team-building competition (WIP as I type), team-building workshop, more discussions and events, etc. are all things that I think would be seen as coexisting positives. (I've probably forgotten a thing or two.) But Vrai is right about needing a greater playerbase. I guess the question I'm trying to get at is simply, how much interest do server regulars who don't battle have in picking up the game? I would really appreciate if some of them could post here and speak to this so we at least know what we are or aren't working with. I'm not trying to set a trap so if you say "not interested" we pounce on you but am instead just trying to get a rough estimate of what turnout we may get from existing server regulars for something like tutoring, which is a logical first step in expanding the playerbase. wolf, maybe you could set up a poll? Maybe even a different thread? I understand that some people have felt deterred from posting here because of the heavy oldie presence so I really wouldn't mind a separate thread if it would mean better responsiveness. |
I suppose I could make a separate thread with a simple goal: ask people brand new to competitive battling if they would be interested in a tutor program. Then put it in the Lobby's intro message on the battle server. However, I think it would be unnecessary for the tutor program. New battlers are constantly visiting PC, so there will always be people to tutor. On the other hand, tutor clans would probably require a great deal of interest, so it may help to receive some confirmation before going through with it. Personally I'm not too keen for tutor clans, because a) there would be the constant concern of thread activity, and b) the combination of this forum (e.g. team help threads) and the tutor program would accomplish similar goals.
PC League & Clans: I've been brainstorming ideas lately. Here's what I've come up with: • The PC League would be a basic organized league. However, there would be clan divisions. • Anyone would be able to make their own clan within the league. If the clan founder can't find at least 4 other people within a certain time period, their clan would be removed. • 5 members would be the requirement for each clan. Could increase depending on the amount of sign-ups. • Each clan would have their own official chat room on the battle server. These would be more for advertisement than for practical use, like to grab the interest of random visitors. Challenges could be held out there as well. • 2 or 4 clans would be designated as "chief clans" (pending name). Challengers who would be interested in putting their name in the Hall of Fame, as well as other goodies, would have to defeat these clans. Defeating the other clans would be optional. To decide which clans would be chief clans, I'm guessing we would hold a clan war amongst all of the clans. • Clans could have their own themes, but it wouldn't be required. OU would still be the standard format for most league activities and challenges. e.g. A clan could have a monotype theme for challengers, but stick with regular OU teams for other stuff. • Lastly, it goes without saying that there would be league activities such as clan wars and free-for-all tournaments. Also, I had this idea pertaining to the battle server's ladder. There are always problems with searching for battles, because it can be inconvenient getting two people to search at the same time. I could possibly code a message that is sent into the Lobby whenever someone searches for a battle. Unfortunately I don't think there's a way for the message to include what format the battle is for. However, I could remove all formats on the ladder except for a "Battle Week/Fortnight" format, so it would be obvious which format it is. |
I'm fine with run-of-the-mill tutoring as it's likely going to feel less contrived. If that's the case, what will the program look like? I truthfully don't have a hugely clear vision of this, mostly because of the aforementioned shortage of tutors which we'd have to work around. I would a tutoring infrastructure more than a tutoring "event" though if that makes sense, for the sake of giving it more longevity, allowing students become tutors over time, etc. (I don't know how that looks in practical terms though.)
I do think though that new battlers visiting PC isn't the entire demographic here. As long as the server is majority non-battling casual, I think the problems that have been described earlier in the thread (especially about the chat) will persist. Maybe you don't agree with this, but part of the appeal of tutoring to me is giving these people an avenue to learn the game and play it decently well, so that even if they only play competitive Pokemon in a casual manner, they can at least be members of the competitive community in earnest. That's more why I want to gauge interest, as otherwise we're still operating as two different communities which I don't think is ideal. I really like your idea for PC League and fully support its implementation as soon as possible. Maybe we'd want to wait for tutoring to get up and running first--you can decide that--but whenever the optimal time is to post it you can do so and I think it would be an awesome and probably necessary addition to our competitive scene. (Just a footnote, but I did want to push the team-building workshop thread again and gauge opinions on that since team-building tends to be a major barrier of entry, and it is perhaps a superior alternative to "here's a list of teams to use" that is more interactive and engaging.) |
I really don't have the time to read through everyhing posted above but I would like to say that anti you are awesome \o/
Anyway I wrote something that I thought about. I agree with a lot that has been said above and in my opinion I would love a more battle centered battle center. Also I disagree with people saying off topic discussions is what brings the laid back-ness, when I joined yesterday on the bc, I think anti and karp were there? Idr lol, but it was actually fun, people were talking about competitive strategies for a while and then we all started to talk about what he future mega mons will bring to the game/if non-factual pokemons etc. it was fun and laid back back but also informative. Especially I wasn't really caught up on the new news. While I don't want to put the impression that off topic discussions like what some of you are discussing about is a complete no-no for me (since I used to be involved in them myself lol) I would prefer only topics that are good contribution wise be present in the main chat and things that are more suited for pm's be taken to pm's. I actually thought of a way so we can merge tutoring as well as tournaments. It was inspired by football but I was thinking if we could have the league concept introduced (I saw a lot league written above but irdk what that's about, I will read it by Sunday). What I mean by that is we do a whole tutor recruitment thing or what ever, you guys can honk about he process. But once that is done we get teams in with max 5 people in each team. Every team gets atleast one of the above listed tutors. Now what this does is help overall growth in people while battling, something like on-field experience etc. not only does this become fun but also very interactive and let's people get involved into competitive Pokemon with guidance. Small tournaments in between is also a big yes since it promotes practice and overall competitiveness. Furthermore we should definitely have clans, although I am not an expert on those, but I have seen so many clan guys come to our server only to be dissed by the community saying this is not a battling-ish server (no I did not have a hand in that). Anyway These are my views and I need to go to class (full days be so ass) I might add/tidy up later on. Ty for reading, elf sux etc. |
A lot has been said on this matter, I agree with a many things. Alright just want to introduce myself for those of you who dont know me, Im Ingo a regular on the PC showdown server. I joined this site and as soon as I became a member I was impressed the site itself has so many features and a solid member base. The structure of the site is great, although I feel the competitiveness can be improved further.
Ok for starters I feel that there should be a clan section around here where members can build small clans/groups and challenge each other. Perhaps form an official ranking list with the top 5 clans of Poke' Community, have this maintained by a certain member and have mods over look it to make sure its being run smoothly. Trust me its effective, this site has a lot of skilled battlers however its lacking a bit of the competitiveness. On the positive side I do like the tournaments being held such as the GT11 things like that raises activity and awareness and will definitely help retain members. Also Wolf I most definitely agree with you on the fact that having clans and small groups will help the site have teams battling more closely alongside each other. So if the site was to war another site players would feel more comfortable and would know how to work with each other as a team too. Another thing, I'm not having a go at the moderators here. But how many posts you have on the forum shouldnt declare whether you should be a moderator on the server. Post count is important dont get me wrong it shows dedication, how long a member has been part of the community is also very important. But im a regular on the Poke' community server as is E x i l e and Dark Azelf. Ive noticed a lot of the moderators on the server dont do anything or barely get on there most of the time I message them saying host a tournament. These are things that will keep the server active and running. My advice, maybe have a competitive forum for pokemon which can be merged with RMT ratings, clans/ leagues. This will definitely enhance the forum and encourage new members to join also. |
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Ahoy! I'm not sure if anyone still cares about all this, but nonetheless... I'm more than willing to do what was discussed here, but I've been swamped with schoolwork lately. That and activity has been slow, especially on the battle server, which has been discouraging. Because of this, the tutor program has been put on hold until maybe the holidays. I've also been forced to delay the PC League due to the poor activity, since we don't really have enough active regulars to make it successful.
In the meantime that I have some goals to accomplish once my semester ends (or before that if I have time): a) write up a decent guide for beginners, b) host small tournaments (e.g. Battle Dojo and regular) to spark some interest in ORAS OU, c) be more active in general, and d) make it easier to find battles on the battle server. I've tested out ladder messages on my private server (whenever someone clicks on the "Look for a battle" button a message like "<user> is searching for a <format> battle" appears), but it has one major glitch that deters me from implementing it in the Lobby. The server will post multiple messages for each member that has the same IP, regardless if it was just one of them who clicked on the button. So, if a crowd from school starts using the ladder, the Lobby will get flooded. To avoid this, I've considered making another room like the Lobby that everyone autojoins upon loading the server. Since the room wouldn't be intended for chatting like the default room, the ladder spam wouldn't be a big problem if it ever occurs. Plus, other stuff could be done with the room, like room-specific promotions as incentives for being an active or good battler. Then, more people would be able to start tournaments. |
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