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Lisa Bloom is a leech and the most rediculous attention seeking idiot on the face of this earth. Have you read any of her stuff?
Where did you read no signs of struggle and hands up surrendering? From the Browns Autopsy guy? The Federal Autopsy guy said he was shot 2inch to a foot from the barrel of the gun according to KMOV the St.Louis news station. If you have that article I would like to read it though. Pretty much all i have heard that agrees with you is word of mouth and protestors but I have seen no official statements validating those claims. |
Well, so much for hoping that this thread would turn out any differently than the million other threads related to racism on the internet.....
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A majority of the blacks in my area act like thugs and are thugs so I perceive them as thugs. I never said "all black people are thugs", I said "a majority of the blacks in my current area". Visit my area and see for yourself. They live here only temporarily, they still live in the ghetto of south Chicago where 90+% of them are thugs! Sorry, it's the facts. If you can't accept it then it's not my problem. If you don't believe me, go to south Chicago, but I'm not making any guarantee's you'll make it out alive regardless of your race. It's a scary area, the WARZONE of Chicago. Remember the 80+ people gunned down during the 4th of July weekend in Chicago this year? Where you think this took place? SOUTH CHICAGO! South Chicago is the reason Chicago is nicknamed "Chiraq". It's filled with nothing but gang bangers/thugs that commit felony's everyday, there's nothing but gunshots heard everyday, another body in the obituary, and countless assaults and home invasions everyday. With that being said, don't jump to assumptions. Besides, I'm not racist nor would I even consider joining the KKK. I look at the KKK as scum of this earth. I also find it very hard to believe you're white too. Because you're trying awfully hard to back up the black thugs. |
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EDIT: 64 #2 was really odd. They couldn't get their story straight with the previous day. There were actually a few like that but that one stuck out BIG TIME. |
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I think it would do a lot of people well to remember what MLK actually said and did if we’re going to bring him up here. Quote:
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Police can harass anyone, this is true. But blacks living in impoverished areas have been more likely to abuse from law enforcement than middle/upper-class whites. I’ve never met a white person who was ever afraid of the police, the way many even law-abiding blacks are. I would urge people to look into the history of race relations in America, and look into how the Criminal Justice system affects minorities before trying to pass judgement against an entire race. Because a lot of these posts do exactly that, and it says something very depressing about some of the people who post here. Like anyone else, I don’t know exactly what happened in the Michael Brown-Darren Wilson case. I listened to the same news stories you did, weighed the factors like anyone else, and came to my own conclusion that Wilson at least deserved to be indicted. It doesn’t matter now, but trying to look into the black perspective on these things would do a lot more good than simply condemning them while pretending that racism no longer exists and that it’s all the blacks’ fault. It’s not that simple, and people need to realize that. |
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Then again, you are the same person who summarized MLK's works as "pull their pants up" so I guess that might be too much to ask for. Regardless. For example, earlier, the Black Panthers were brought up. You might as well call these guys the yang to the KKK's yin. Don't you think that both groups perhaps are problematic and that they both contribute to the furthering the misery that perpetuates this black versus white trope. I heard from someone on facebook who asked me, "you people who say that we shouldn't see colour, you're all saying that because you're ignoring the problem that's existed for 500 years". And it just makes me ask, if this black versus white trope is the problem that we have been dealing with for 500 years, don't you think that doing the exact opposite is the only thing that is going to stop perpetuating this problem? There's a common saying - that if you're going to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result, then that's the definition of insanty - but the truth is that by perpetuating that because it's the status quo that alternatives that seek to remove that should be ignored shows that people truly aren't ready to let go of those views just yet, on both sides. And you know what? Mind you, this is someone who really doesn't know how to feel about this whole thing other than the whole thing is a tragedy. I've already had people telling me to kill myself and how horrible and racist I am because I frankly have a lot bigger problems on my plate. Again, to me, I treat everyone with respect, and I try to help those who don't get it, but I can't throw myself out there when I'm already dealing with my own challenges with suicide and self harm. Problems so screwed up that I can't run away anymore. I'm not looking for sympathy, but it helps raise an important issue - the fact that people are so ****ing froth filled with rage while ignoring everything else that could possibly be happening in their world just shows how close minded they really are, and how desperately they cling to their presumed "open mindedness" in order to perpetuate their own self worth. Yeah, I don't think that my problems overshadow what's going on in Ferguson right now, but maybe my problems are making me unable to make a decision on how I feel about it. Maybe other people's problems affect how other people feel about it. Maybe the reason why people are saying the things that they are saying is because they have encountered things in their lives that have shown them to think otherwise, outside of the stereotypical "POOR BLACK PEOPLE" narrative. If you have an opinion, that's fine. But you know what. People have opinions based on their history. Instead of going around and being a complete chucknugget, try actually trying to understand where the opposition is coming from. I have already come to agree to disagree with some people in this thread. Just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean that they secretly hate black people, or that they believe that the kid should have died, or that there isn't a problem. It means that they disagreed with you with how people are handling it. Perhaps you should show the same level of maturity. Maybe this rage that people are doing in response to the incident reflects that people aren't ready to reconcile their differences and are unwilling to see the challenges that others face. And maybe, even just as this reaction on this forum alone along with the entire internet caught ablaze, shows that perhaps, we are not ready for that. I guess it's time to return to my hut. Everyone's welcome besides those who scream, because those who scream have no consideration for others. P.S. I'm tired as **** so sorry if this reads like a drunk sermon. |
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https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152603552157512 |
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This is not to say that there aren’t blacks who legitimately deserve to be punished by the law for the crimes they do. I’m saying that blacks are very much still disadvantaged in this country, racism still exists and did not end with the Civil Rights Movement, and that blacks have an understandable reason for being outraged when a white police officer shoots an unarmed black teenager and when the officer who shot him isn’t even indicted. It was the white man who made it that way in the first place. |
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Ultimately I think this boils down to a couple of things.
1. Groups of people who were regularly shifted to the bottom rungs of society through oppression, such as black people, tend to have struggles financially. This financial struggle eventually peters out once integration occurs, but this can take some time. 2. While financially struggling, regardless of race or income, most people view these people negatively. For example, locally, black middle class/upper class individuals have far more animosity towards lower class black people than middle class/upper class whites. This actually leads to a problem since people tend to focus on the racial side of the issue, which, while valid in many cases 60 years ago, is not true now, which causes the problem to avoid being targeted. 3. Because black people took until the 60's to be legally integrated in UNITED STATES culture, they still suffer stigma in the UNITED STATES because they still have financial catching up to do. Because of various conditions, including an over emphasis on black-versus-white mentality (one of the most dangerous mentalities and what holds so many black people back) and a well defined separate culture in many communities, integration is difficult. The combination of these tactics help perpetuate both coincidental disadvantageous individuals as well as perpetuate the logic of racist bigotry. Unlike other minorities, they don't have the following advantages: - Women can change class through marriage and usually adopt the class of their husbands. This can open up women to better oppporitunities as well as helping to raise their own female children to become independent. - Due to the way immigration has changed in the last 40 years, Asians (who historically faced far more discrimination before reforming immigration than some other minorities, it's pretty screwed up how much erasure this gets) have transformed from a stereotype of complete idiots to very smart, which has helped push them from segregation considerably. This issue has historical context and shows how much what kind of people you let in your country affects how people view them (Originally they brought in blue collar workers who could barely understand english and were considered disposable, thus considered "idiots", now immigration makes the US prefer those in the sciences and technology) - Jews have consistently been pushed out of work that is middle/lower class and adopted forms of work that turned out to be more profitable (i.e. white collar), which also leads to the stereotype of them being "greedy". - The physically disabled, which frankly should receive far more attention than Ferguson should in my opinion, have one distinct advantage socially - harming a disabled person is usually considered extremely taboo. In fact, this turns into another problem - their problem is that people don't listen and are not empathetic towards their problems since they make assumptions or are unwilling to explore their perspective. Ultimately, this leads to an intense divide that is perpetuated by both sides. Even someone who tries to integrate themselves are commonly told to "sit down and shut up" instead of, I dunno, actual integration between the races. Ultimately both sides of participants (not all people participate in this, which leads to people "blind to colour") end up having the exact same problem on the other side and continue to perpetuate a problem of "white versus black." Ultimately this is why it must be eliminated. I'm not saying this structure is right (in fact I think it's pretty wrong and leads to why education and health care should be available to all individuals), I'm saying that I think it's less to do with "omg black people do this" and more to do with trend following tactics that people tend to use to try to curb behaviour. Ultimately, the real ultimate tragedy of the impoverished is that they struggle to survive and sometimes make extreme decisions to try to make their lives better, such as selling drugs, robbery or joining gangs. I know people who have been involved in all three, and it's all because of the same reason - they want a better life, and their poverty, more than anything, cuts them off. By consequence, most people who are upper or middle class, who are protected by the police force, end up forming a battle between the two, and because black people have faced the most challenges with financial integration, they have committed, proportionally, more crime than other groups. This isn't because black people are inherently bad, it's because many black people are in a desperate situation, because of a difficulty with rising in class. Ultimately, because of this, it can justify racism, or induce profiling. In addition, people who are lower class (more likely to be black) have more inherent What is troublesome here though is that activists are also blinded by the race card here. It's so easy to be entranced by the racist narrative to ignore other possibilities, which is prevalent in this thread. The reality is that these issues strike people of all colour, gender, whatever. It's just that because of other circumstances, some people are struck more often than others. Again, in Detroit, most of the population lives in pretty low conditions, despite the population only having 54% black population. Other surrounding cities with better living conditions such as Southfield have higher black populations, indicating that this, at least in this case, may be far less of a race issue than it is an income issue. Perhaps in Ferguson it is a blend of both - where there is enough racism in the area to perpetuate this cycle even further. But in all honesty. Sometimes I wish you people would wear a blindfold for a day. It would be pretty enlightening I think. |
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I wish this thread would be considered in terms of institutions and the identity/behavior established from institutions rather than the idea that groups of people are consciously deciding to have biases (this applies to all identities, minority/majority alike).
A. Some majority actors seek to maintain status quo. (Essentially no Minorities support this.) 1. Maintain income inequality and separation of culture. 2. Revert to older forms of status quo (turn the clock a decade or two in respect to race and political behavior/mobilization.) B. Some majority and minority actors seek to incorporate/integrate minorities into the system better. 1. Assimilation - minority enveloped by majority 2. Pluralism - minorities and majorities being distinct groups with equal rights 3. Reciprocal Assimilation - All parties enveloped into a new system and identity (think white immigrant). As a primarily white person, barring my other minority status outside of race, I tend to favor the third approach. Pluralism isn't effective, and leads to divisiveness rather than the desired effect of "egalitarianism", which has no clear definition. It forges separate and distinct interests, and thus, leads to a decrease in substantive representation...meaning, the total amount of constituents satisfied by policy and its implementation. Those who are rioting are advocating the B2 approach to race/ethnicity in America. Further, most whites favor either the A1, B1, or B2 approaches. White Conservatives tend to favor A1/B1 and White Liberals tend to favor B2. These approaches are used in policy advocacy and political campaigning to garner votes. The B3 response gives politicians no leverage over race and political campaigning, (since it is inherently non-divisive.) The thread seems to be leaning towards the other responses I have listed, and they are all flawed, but it seem fair to assume the fault of these approach choices are based upon the simple heuristically employed in decisive political culture and political institutions. |
I find it amusing how people are arguing so strongly about the actual case as if this was a trial. This was not a trial. This was a hearing to decide if there would be a trial. I think it's clear from the fact that a person was shot to death and there is confusion on what happened that it should have gone to trial.
You have to wonder why a grand jury, which are known for sending 99% of cases to trial, found this convoluted case open-and-shut enough that it didn't deserve one. It's also worth noting that in the grand jury hearing, there is no need to hear evidence against the prosecution. The prosecution chooses what is shown and, if they are doing their job correctly, choose the evidence that best shows that they have a case to bring it to trial. Instead, the prosecutor muddied the water with all the evidence, not even cross-examining Darren Wilson, and otherwise basically working for the defense. This was not a trial that the prosecution wanted to happen, so they gamed the system. Regardless of your feelings on what the outcome of a trial should have/would have been, you have to agree that it should have had a trial. |
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...Seriously, I mean this - what if he's actually telling the truth? I can't make that decision, but seriously, what if he's honestly saying the honest to goodness truth? How do you know that he isn't? To a third party, there is compelling evidence brought up on both sides. Perhaps the reason why the evidence was withheld before the final decision was because they knew either way there would be a massive cluster**** on both sides. How are you supposed to know any better than anyone else? Again, I find it extremely difficult to have an intense opinion on this - again, because I have bigger personal problems and I really can't deal with this **** right now - but from everything I've seen there's compelling evidence on both sides. Just because you want to selectively claim that somehow supporting him == racism doesn't actually mean that people who support him are racists. Why not listen to their opinion instead of automatically demonizing them? It's actually a very healthy debate practice to observe and attempt to understand opposing debates. What you're doing is a very clear derivative of straw man - you're basically painting your opposition as racists or otherwise "bad" because you don't understand their debate. Why not ask the questions yourself that they're asking you so that you can gain some understanding for their debate, and possibly find ways to strengthen your argument? Sure, there are certainly people who support him who are racists. There are also people supporting the Browns who are racists. Look at the people going around and using this to push a "white hate" agenda - is that not racism in of itself? What holds these arguments up besides the people's own bigotry? Nothing. Ultimately, it's best to weed out opinions that hinge on bigotry on both sides and through those that I have seen, I think that both sides are focusing so much on specific information that both are failing to acknowledge the whole story. It is imperative, regardless of background, to focus on the entire story. And frankly, there's a lot to take in. There's a lot to weed out. There's a lot that you or anyone else could have missed. There isn't a smoking gun, because both sides are fighting over what that smoking gun is. A third party such as myself sees this as a problem with no clear cut answer. Finally, regardless of the decision, I don't think the rioting is right, which is my ultimate problem here. If there is a problem with the law, address that, don't burn your city to the ground. As I said multiple times, that has happened in the past with a certain city and we all know what happened next. It's not justifiable, even if people are angry. If you try to hold people in fear, regardless of what side of the fence you are on, you only add tension to an already extremely tense situation. If the decision was reversed and the other side was rioting, do you think that you would hold the same support, even though it would have exactly the same consequences on the community? People will just get more pissed and more unwilling to work with you, especially if those individuals are individuals That's why people STILL support MLK today but forget about many individual highly educated black activists throughout history who had various ideas from instantiating a civil war to migrating back to Africa - because someone like him actually supported actual EQUALITY as opposed to just dealing with the situation by pissing people off or running away. The former doesn't work because you piss people off and the latter doesn't work because you've already developed your own culture distant enough from Africa to actually be feasible and in a way you are invading THEIR land for your own needs, which usually ends not so well. |
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In short, by the law and in theory, yes, African Americans did receive the same rights. But in actual application by those who are meant to enforce these laws? No. Also, separate but equal stopped being a thing only half a century ago. People whose families were disadvantage as a result of segregation and Jim Crow laws will likely have offspring that will be disadvantaged for the same reason. Not only that, but opportunity doesn't come easy when you've grown up in a certain environment. |
If the only posts you can make in this thread are to call people out with insults and inflammatory statements, you shouldn't post in this thread at all. Period. Ultimately the fate of this thread lies in Live's hands so if he has different plans for this thread, I'll let him decide. But for now, you all need to cool it. Infractions will be handed out next if it continues.
Thanks for understanding. |
Racism or not, America has a serious problem with militarized police and a "shoot first, ask questions later mentality." Every cop I've seen has a taser on them. Wilson seriously couldn't have used his taser instead?
Cops are now asking for freaking drones for christ sakes. But of course, nobody is going to stand up and say enough because "not all cops are bad, m'kay?" right? Enjoy your dystopian, Half-Life 2 police state future. |
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I agree with Oryx. Brown was unarmed, had surrendered and was on his knees; there was no need for him to be shot six times (or shot twice in the head). I'm not going to come out and say that Wilson should have been convicted of murder because blah blah we don't know everything but there is NO reason that it shouldn't have gone to trial. The verdict is ridiculous. |
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Seriously, why the hell is this guy even a cop? |
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Okay...I'm seeing a complete lack of fact-checking and misinformation in this thread and it's really irritating because it seems like some people aren't bothering to look at the evidence presented to the grand jury.
Here's an article done by NPR which also links to grand jury documents. The comments I see in here display no concern for honest debate or real discussion because I see a lot of hearsay and straight-up false information. You're arguing whether or not the verdict is fair when the reality is that the grand jury used the evidence presented to them to render a verdict as accurately as possible. They can't use rumors and unreliable witness testimony. They can't use personal feelings. The evidence presented to the grand jury matched Officer Wilson's version of events more accurately than any conflicting version of events. The physical evidence corroborates the story. Please stop posting false information and rumors. Read through the documents and see what evidence was given to the grand jury and then come to a conclusion. Don't just say whatever you feel about it and pretend the facts and evidence are not out there. All that matters to a grand jury is THAT information that was presented, not hearsay. |
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And to the people wondering why he shot Brown six times, it's not rocket science. A 9mm pistol doesn't have that much firepower so to drop someone the size of Brown it can take half the clip at times. Where as with a pistol like a .45 it would of been over after 1 or 2 shots. This is my personal opinion, he should of shot at the legs instead causing him to collapse and called for paramedics once he's in custody, he wouldn't bleed out instantly. I wasn't there, I don't know what exactly happened and how far away Brown was when he got shot. There's too many sources and any of them can be accurate. |
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