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Mega Salamence banned from OU
Today the Smogon community announced that Mega Salamence has been banned from the OU tier, with their reasoning contained in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/salamencite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3523082/ So I was thinking that maybe we could talk about it a bit or something. |
I don't think anybody didn't see it coming. Between its crazy Attack stat, great Defense and other stats all-around, along with its massive move capabilities, it wasn't going to stick around. It doesn't help that people had to resort to mostly unnecessary gimmicks like Choice Scarf Greninja just to have a shot at defeating it. It had to go.
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I totally called this right from the get-go. Aerilate + impressive defensive capabilities = little effort to sweep. Lots of players were very limited with teambuilding because they had to use specific Pokemon just to get past this beast, and now with it gone it will make teams in OU diverse and not too centralized again.
In fact, I remember posting in the DCC this would be the first banning of the OR/AS competitive era and it was spot-on. |
Not surprised by this at all, Mega Salamence is a monster whose attack, both defenses, and speed are even more beastly than Charizard X. Combine that with Intimidate, Moxie, Aerilate, Dragon Dance, Facade, and Substitute and you have a Mega that can tear through 99.9 percent of the OU metagame even better than Mega Kangaskhan.
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It was anticipated and surely there will be others possibly mega metagross as well.
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I also had a feeling it was gonna get banned, from what I had heard in the main server lobby (ya know, when it's not filled with spam or ****).
I agree with the first two points made in the Smogon post; clearly Mega Mence has great stats, a good ability, and a good movepool, all of which make it a top threat. But the 3rd point I find a little....odd: Quote:
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page. And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible. Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure". |
Well now I'm feeling a bit intimidated to face one myself once I reach the Delta Episode in-game or from an online battle. At least there's still Sceptile and Altaria for those who want a Hoenn Dragon type with a Mega Evolution. I fear that Mega Sableye may also be next line after what happened with Mega Mawile.
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Wow, I only played on showdown since I couldn't get ORAS yet, but didn't know Salamence was so powerful. Probably because I mainly played doubles leading with mega aerodactyl who OHKO'd it with ice fang all the times I met one.
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Not too surprising, it makes sense for their style of play - fare thee well from that scene; mega Croissant. However, on its banning -
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I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct. |
Hahaha power creep is a funny thing... I'm from a time when Zapdos was good. :P
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lol I'm still not phrasing this very well. I'll just roll with "Hah - Smogon's OU tier saw a small shift in its 'diverse' roster of pokemon that see usage in it briefly. But it looks like they're eliminating another new thing to preserve its... already 'diverse' pool of pokemon that see usage in it." |
I was expecting this. I'm glad I wanted to use Flygon on my competitive team in the first place, because I knew if Salamence got a mega it'd be banned the first chance Smogon got. I wonder if Mega Altaria will bite the dust next
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Honestly I never had much trouble with MegaMence, possibly because of me running Sylveon + Weavile + CB Talon to break offense, but I agree with the quickban. It was too restrictive to teambuilding, could set up on almost anything or lure a would-be physical check and deal massive damage with Draco Meteor or Fire Blast.
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Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. It's not like there are much to discuss regarding this quick ban, though. |
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Mega salamence got smogon'd. Damn, didn't even got to use M-salamence. Dragonite is still better imo. Dragon claw the first turn, survives with multiscale, finish with extreme speed. Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.
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The thing needed to go, it was just too strong for it's tier. It's all well and good saying hit it with an Ice move, but unless you want to run an ice move on everyone of your Pokemon, that thing can find a way to come in, Substitute up, DDance up, and then it's over. It's explained incredibly well in the smogon forum itself, the thing was just way too strong for the tier. Not unlike Mega Kangaskhan when X/Y rolled around. My only question now is when does Mega Slowbro go?
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Hmm expected it to get banned from OU seeing its stats.
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252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 79-93 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 11.2% chance to 4HKO |
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I'm getting tired of battling in showdown. %70 Of the teams have a Chansey. M-Salamence barely 2HKOs Chansey! Stall teams are legit, but cheap cookie cutter stall teams make boring and annoying battles. Quote:
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A base 150 stat used to be considered huge, something that generally only Uber Pokemon had. Nowadays it's becoming common for pokes to have a base 140+ stat. And usually it's in Attack/Sp.Attack/Speed. Ironically stall teams still eat me alive. |
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There's too many stall teams? Never seemed like that when I battle. Usually I see more offensive teams (which is what Mega Mence is most threatening to, since they tend to be frail and it outspeeds most of them).
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Ferrothorn + Chansey + Rotom W <-- easily more than %30 has this sort of team. Or skarmory instead of Ferrothorn.
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Also, I don't want to ban any of the attackers. If anything, I think some of Smogon's bans are kinda dumb. But then again, this is coming from the guy who started competitive battling only last December. Lol. |
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Stall teams are the ones who attempt to win by using residual damage instead of directly attacking. They use defensive pokemon and moves like toxic to wear down the opposing pokemon. |
Before whoever above mentioned it, I hadn't really considered the bans of attack vs defensive pokes. So I did some research. Chuckles were had. Some usage stats on Smogon from earlier this year (pre-aegi ban and ORAS release) reveal that Rotom Wash was on roughly 20% of all players teams in their community's battles lol. It seems by usage there are more offensive than defensive in the top used though; but when I look at the banned list... again chuckles were had.
Keeping it on topic though; nothing is surprising about the Mega Salamence ban in that community. It only continues trends I have no need to repeatedly babble on about. Bottom line is people who live by those rules and do what Smogon says will now say farewell to it; while people who do not, will simply not carry on. I look forward to seeing what roles Mega-Mence will play in the upcoming year's VGC though :3 That - I'm pretty interested in. Wether it becomes as mandatory as Talonflame / Mega Kanga in X/Y's first year or as short lived as the Mega Lucario which went down in one turn with no KO's to show for it in this past year's matches; I will be waiting to see. |
I don't think it was a huge surprise that he was gonna get banned, but I still see people acting really surprised that he was. I mean, with a 145? Base attack stat combined with Aerilate and a solid 120 base special attack stat and a diverse movepool COMBINED with 2 great pre-evo abilities, it's just too good. However, I feel that maybe Mega Metagross is a good counter for the common set that was in one of the links. His 150 base defense and his pre-evo ability keeps him safe from intimidate as long as he doesn't mega evolve. Even then, he has tough claws and mega-mence is x4 weak to ice so it'd probably be just enough to break through. Let's also not forget that he has priority in bullet punch which I think is neutral if I'm correct. Just a thought. I don't have calcs to back this up but if someone could do that, that'd be cool. Try both a jolly and adamant nature for mega metagross with 252 attack.
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It makes me laugh how offensive players moan about something and it gets banned. Mega Mence wasnt really an issue for stall as many common stall mons wrecked it see; Skarm, Zong, Zapdos, Slowbro etc. But if stall players said "Oh actually can we get rid of Mega Medicham, Gardy and Heracross because they are psuedo uncountable oh and Gothitelle because every wall in the game is at risk from its garbage" yet nothing gets done about those lol.
Also if you cant break stall your team synergy/strategy/battling style is bad/flawed and you got outplayed. Sorry but its true. You've got stuff with base 160 offenses, Life Orbs etc and you still cant wall break. Let that sink in. :| Regardless, its a stupid argument because an ideal metagame should be an environment where all play styles flourish, including stall. Think late DPPtHGSS metagame or RSE. Anyway, mega mence and mega Ray are a perfect example of bs power creep and show that nintendo needs to STOP with the mega failures, they've clearly jumped the broken shark as shown by mega Ray getting an ENTIRE NEW TIER JUST FOR IT. As ive said before, this isnt digimon, nor do any sane players who strive for balance want **** running around with base 160+ offenses and megas show you're scraping the barrel because they introduced like 30 original new pokemon this gen. Lastly, what have been banned most of all this gen? Megas. Case and point. Personally i would love to see a mega free metagame, then people would actually have to to try when battling and team building instead of spamming <Gee wiz un-wallable unresisted move from base 190 attack>. Quoth the elf. Forevermore. :) |
For normal pokemons is beat an mega evole pokemon very difficult and they are very strong.. :/
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I wonder what will happen to Mega-Salamence in VGC. Nothings gets banned there other than Mascot Legends and such. Mega-Khan was actually fair(ish) in Doubles. Maybe the same will happen here.
Being banned on Smogon is... just look at his stats. Do you think Arcues and Mega-Mewtwo should drop down to OU? |
yup totally, arceus-ghost best offensive/defensive spinblocker, mega mewtwo x (gg mega gallade) and mega mewtwo y (chansey exterminator yaa... 6-0s standard stall) -.-
#babagareeb |
Anything that can take a 4X STAB Ice Beam from my Physical/Mixed Kyurem-B does not belong in the tier, in my opinion. Mega Salamence is ridiculously disruptive.
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252 SpA Life Orb Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 655-769 (166.2 - 195.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO even max spd hp mega mence cant take it, changed defences to 95/130/90 lol |
Apparently max HP, max SD can take an Ice Beam from an uninvested in SA Kyurem-B (without Life Orb), but even then, it's a coin flip as to whether it OHKOs or not. Maybe Skyburial ran into the wrong Mence on the wrong day, but at any rate, I think anyone who's seen what the tier was like for the brief while Mega Mence was allowed to run roughshod in it will know that the ban was more than justified.
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Why can't we just remove all mega's and have a clean ou tier :/
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The only Mega Pokemon that were banned from OU are Kangaskhan, Blaziken, Gengar, Mawile, Lucario and Salamence. This was because they centralized OU to an extent. |
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Takes out Megachomp, Landorus-T, Stealth Rock-weakened Dragonite, all the major pre-ORAS points. |
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56 SpA Life Orb Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 567-671 (143.9 - 170.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO :) |
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56 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 372-436 (94.4 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO 56 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 484-567 (122.8 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO |
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Plus i find it hilarious that if you took the megas away, you'd see that they've introduced absolutely NOTHING new, original etc this gen. :\ P.s megas arent original. They're recycled, digimon-esque, laziest excuse for a game, psuedo uber pokemon lol. P.s.s. Why are we arguing and doing calcs on how well salamence takes a STAB ICE BEAM? :| "Not very" would be the answer lol. |
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But I agree that running calcs on how well Mega Mence takes STAB Ice Beams is dumb though. Guys....it's Salamence. It doesn't take Ice Beams. It only wishes it could. |
I wasn't doing calcs on how well mence takes ice beams, was trying to point that it doesn't.
Lrn2readup |
And to think Mega Mence is S-rank in the Ubers viability ranking thread...
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Also maybe i should elaborate about the "nothing new". Most viable fairies were in the game before except with a different typing. They arent new lol. Same with Defog and weather changes etc. That is just a simple mechanic change, not being totally new. As with megas, its just a totally reused and revamped concept, it isnt new. Those pokemon/moves were already in the game. Also mega evolving is a digimon rip off but i digress. Also the 70 or so "new" pokemon are generally inferior or just plain suck. There are only a few usable/OU ones. :\ RS, DP, GS, even BW introduced about 100-150 new ones each. Quote:
Lastly, ive alluded to this in a previous post, but its always offensive players that get what they want and the best of bans. Mega Mence wasnt really too threatening against stall or bulky offense (4mss [using Outrage? Cool you cant hit Heatran or Skarm etc] and common stall pokemon stop it cold, it just maimed offense because it was hard to revenge kill and check with offensive pokes. On the other hand if stall players said "Oh hera, gardy and gothitelle are bs to counter they should be banned because nothing walls them and using gothitelle is admitting you have no wallbreaking skill" nothing would be done lol. Which is the main reason i think its ridiculous when we should be striving for balance and we are letting these megas roam free when there is a clear bias lol. :| |
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I wasnt specifically saying your teams, i meant in general. :P The last point you make basically sums my argument up about striving for balance and why megas arent healthy for it. I could say the same. Why should i be forced to run something as ****** as Doublade in order to stop mega gardy, or pack my team with things that gothitelle cant trap? Just as offense shouldn't have to run garbage things like Scarf Greninja to beat mega mence. Also Swords Dance has more use than just Chansey js lol so i dont think thats a good argument. When you have to run something specifically to beat something else, thats when it becomes questionable see: Scarf Ninja for mence, on the other hand Chansey has many things that beat it. |
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This ties into mega salamence being banned from OU lol. Mostly because being banned from OU, essentially means Swagon players can discount Mega Salamence from being substantial new content introduced in ORAS / sixth gen. Because it's now removed from what they consider 'standard play' - it may as well not even be there for the bulky demographic who can't / refuses to stray outside of that one playlist on showdown. |
Were I to choose a first poke for the Bug/Dragon typing, it would be Yanmega, for a few reasons.
First and foremost, Mega Yanmega is just fun to say, and ridiculously meme-able, which would result in creative nicknames. In my opinion, this is part of what energizes the metagame. Second, Dragon-type megas and Bug-Type megas are both too centralized around physical attackers. With ORAS, this problem was slightly alleviated for Dragon, and not at all for Bug. So we've got all these answers for Bug-types in OU that can go completely unchecked on the special side. Third, mega evolution often comes with a move pool expansion, and Yanmega's move pool is weak sauce without Tinted Lense. So this would not only give Yanmega the bump it deserves, but diversify the sets that we run on the rest of the tier. I'm not sure if the same can be said for Flygon. |
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