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-   -   Mega Salamence banned from OU (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=339491)

Nah November 28th, 2014 12:26 PM

Mega Salamence banned from OU
 

Today the Smogon community announced that Mega Salamence has been banned from the OU tier, with their reasoning contained in this post:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/salamencite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3523082/

So I was thinking that maybe we could talk about it a bit or something.

Pendraflare November 28th, 2014 12:38 PM

I don't think anybody didn't see it coming. Between its crazy Attack stat, great Defense and other stats all-around, along with its massive move capabilities, it wasn't going to stick around. It doesn't help that people had to resort to mostly unnecessary gimmicks like Choice Scarf Greninja just to have a shot at defeating it. It had to go.

Hikamaru November 28th, 2014 12:44 PM

I totally called this right from the get-go. Aerilate + impressive defensive capabilities = little effort to sweep. Lots of players were very limited with teambuilding because they had to use specific Pokemon just to get past this beast, and now with it gone it will make teams in OU diverse and not too centralized again.

In fact, I remember posting in the DCC this would be the first banning of the OR/AS competitive era and it was spot-on.

Professor_Jared November 28th, 2014 12:44 PM

Not surprised by this at all, Mega Salamence is a monster whose attack, both defenses, and speed are even more beastly than Charizard X. Combine that with Intimidate, Moxie, Aerilate, Dragon Dance, Facade, and Substitute and you have a Mega that can tear through 99.9 percent of the OU metagame even better than Mega Kangaskhan.

Dedenne1 November 28th, 2014 2:01 PM

It was anticipated and surely there will be others possibly mega metagross as well.

Nah November 28th, 2014 3:29 PM

I also had a feeling it was gonna get banned, from what I had heard in the main server lobby (ya know, when it's not filled with spam or ****).

I agree with the first two points made in the Smogon post; clearly Mega Mence has great stats, a good ability, and a good movepool, all of which make it a top threat. But the 3rd point I find a little....odd:

Quote:

The amount of teams that run obscure and niche counters/revenge killers on the ladder is impressive. People are forced to run defensive Porygon-2, HP Ice Rotom-W, defensive Zapdos and Cresselia in order to deal with the threat that Mega Salamence represents. On top of that, none of these Pokémon are exactly viable on offensive teams, meaning that said teams are either forced to run gimmicks such as Choice Scarf Greninja in order to revenge kill Mega Salamence or to completely twist their structure and sacrifice a Pokémon slot to carry a dedicated answer to it.
Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

Pinkie-Dawn November 28th, 2014 3:49 PM

Well now I'm feeling a bit intimidated to face one myself once I reach the Delta Episode in-game or from an online battle. At least there's still Sceptile and Altaria for those who want a Hoenn Dragon type with a Mega Evolution. I fear that Mega Sableye may also be next line after what happened with Mega Mawile.

Anti November 28th, 2014 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8512770)
I also had a feeling it was gonna get banned, from what I had heard in the main server lobby (ya know, when it's not filled with spam or ****).

I agree with the first two points made in the Smogon post; clearly Mega Mence has great stats, a good ability, and a good movepool, all of which make it a top threat. But the 3rd point I find a little....odd:

quote: The amount of teams that run obscure and niche counters/revenge killers on the ladder is impressive. People are forced to run defensive Porygon-2, HP Ice Rotom-W, defensive Zapdos and Cresselia in order to deal with the threat that Mega Salamence represents. On top of that, none of these Pokémon are exactly viable on offensive teams, meaning that said teams are either forced to run gimmicks such as Choice Scarf Greninja in order to revenge kill Mega Salamence or to completely twist their structure and sacrifice a Pokémon slot to carry a dedicated answer to it.

Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

I would try replacing the word "obscure" with "otherwise bad" and I think you'll find it to be a valid point. Whether they're OU or not, these are simply not top-tier mons. Would they be seeing usage without Mega Salamence around? (By good players. Zapdos is actually kinda bad.) HP Ice Rotom is a minor adaptation, so I'm inclined to say it's not "unhealthy." The others, though, I just wouldn't want to run, especially if I'm running an offense team. I don't want to be forced to run these mediocre Pokemon just so I can delay Mega Salamence ripping me apart, and I think that's the point. They are both bad (if only relatively so) and few in number, thereby restricting team-building. I think that's all they're trying to say.

Pendraflare November 28th, 2014 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8512770)
Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

Well the reason they're defined as such is because you rarely see them in OU (if at all), and in addition to what Anti said above me (and as I said a few posts above), you shouldn't have to use gimmicks like Choice Scarf Greninja or HP Ice Rotom-W just to defeat a Mega Evolution, which isn't helped by the fact that you'll find almost no use for it at all outside of such. Remember Garchomp in Generation IV, and Excadrill in Generation V, and how much team centralizing they required? Teams had to run a lot of counters to properly handle Garchomp or they would lose to it themselves. Think about that, and then you'll probably get where they're coming from.

J9794 November 28th, 2014 7:18 PM

Wow, I only played on showdown since I couldn't get ORAS yet, but didn't know Salamence was so powerful. Probably because I mainly played doubles leading with mega aerodactyl who OHKO'd it with ice fang all the times I met one.

Polar Spectrum November 28th, 2014 8:03 PM

Not too surprising, it makes sense for their style of play - fare thee well from that scene; mega Croissant. However, on its banning -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikamaru (Post 8512639)
and now with it gone it will make teams in OU diverse and not too centralized again.

I disagree, based on the contradiction to that statement this subsequently brings up-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8512770)
Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

If it was encouraging lesser used pokemon to suddenly be used in response to it... isn't it increasing the diversity of their OU tier? And banning it in response - is just going to continue to give reign to the same top mons prior to its debut - won't it? Just a thought.

Zeffy November 28th, 2014 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8512999)
If it was encouraging lesser used pokemon to suddenly be used in response to it... isn't it increasing the diversity of their OU tier? And banning it in response - is just going to continue to give reign to the same top mons prior to its debut - won't it? Just a thought.

So, you're saying that using the same Pokemon on every team just to counter an otherwise almost unstoppable threat increases diversity? Somehow, I do not follow that logic. Additionally, using those said Pokemon only lowers the user's knowledge of the entire metagame. They are so constricted in trying to focus on countering a single thing that they forget about the plethora of other threats out there. I mean, I'm not saying that Porygon2 is a terrible Pokemon, by any chance, but it is bizarre to use it on an offensive team where it would otherwise ruin momentum.

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.

Cerberus87 November 28th, 2014 9:46 PM

Hahaha power creep is a funny thing... I'm from a time when Zapdos was good. :P

Polar Spectrum November 28th, 2014 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8513082)
So, you're saying that using the same Pokemon on every team just to counter an otherwise almost unstoppable threat increases diversity? Somehow, I do not follow that logic. Additionally, using those said Pokemon only lowers the user's knowledge of the entire metagame. They are so constricted in trying to focus on countering a single thing that they forget about the plethora of other threats out there. I mean, I'm not saying that Porygon2 is a terrible Pokemon, by any chance, but it is bizarre to use it on an offensive team where it would otherwise ruin momentum.

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.

Erm, perhaps I phrased my question poorly. What I'm saying is - the problem was allegedly Salamence dominating the tier. So in response; their community started using different, new, or lesser seen things than were typical for that tier, to handle it. So in response to that, they ban Salamence so people can go... back? To using different things? Than they... already were? It just seems like an odd reasoning, wether it's right or not - to state that you're adding to the list of things you're not allowing people to use, which made people use different things - so they can in turn use different things.

lol I'm still not phrasing this very well. I'll just roll with "Hah - Smogon's OU tier saw a small shift in its 'diverse' roster of pokemon that see usage in it briefly. But it looks like they're eliminating another new thing to preserve its... already 'diverse' pool of pokemon that see usage in it."

The Masked One November 28th, 2014 10:33 PM

I was expecting this. I'm glad I wanted to use Flygon on my competitive team in the first place, because I knew if Salamence got a mega it'd be banned the first chance Smogon got. I wonder if Mega Altaria will bite the dust next

KorpiklaaniVodka November 28th, 2014 10:46 PM

Honestly I never had much trouble with MegaMence, possibly because of me running Sylveon + Weavile + CB Talon to break offense, but I agree with the quickban. It was too restrictive to teambuilding, could set up on almost anything or lure a would-be physical check and deal massive damage with Draco Meteor or Fire Blast.

Zeffy November 28th, 2014 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8513105)
lol I'm still not phrasing this very well. I'll just roll with "Hah - Smogon's OU tier saw a small shift in its 'diverse' roster of pokemon that see usage in it briefly. But it looks like they're eliminating another new thing to preserve its... already 'diverse' pool of pokemon that see usage in it."

have you read this part of my post?
Quote:

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.
In any case, a person who aims to have fun AND win would prefer to use the best Pokemon for a certain role. The definition of what is the "best" Pokemon differs in each person's case, though, which is why teambuilding skill is the most important skill a battler should have. Really, I would implore you to explore more of Smogon's battling repertoire. It seems that your conclusions are based on a quick whim.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. It's not like there are much to discuss regarding this quick ban, though.

Polar Spectrum November 29th, 2014 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8513181)
have you read this part of my post?


In any case, a person who aims to have fun AND win would prefer to use the best Pokemon for a certain role. The definition of what is the "best" Pokemon differs in each person's case, though, which is why teambuilding skill is the most important skill a battler should have. Really, I would implore you to explore more of Smogon's battling repertoire. It seems that your conclusions are based on a quick whim.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. It's not like there are much to discuss regarding this quick ban, though.

Oh no no, I absolutely read that, and I agree - what I was saying, and I think is relevant to the thread since it was my commenting on their banning of Mega Croissant within their community's rules; was that their (one) reasoning being "to encourage diversity" seemed a bit silly, based off of - like my previous post said, creating one variety of diversity in opening new niches for things that didn't get use prior; to succeed in. I agree with you on why it got banned, the first thing I said in this thread was "Not surprising, it makes sense for their style of play". But c'mon Smogon hahah. Be real tho

#DickBats November 29th, 2014 4:39 AM

Mega salamence got smogon'd. Damn, didn't even got to use M-salamence. Dragonite is still better imo. Dragon claw the first turn, survives with multiscale, finish with extreme speed. Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Nah November 29th, 2014 5:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8513189)
Oh no no, I absolutely read that, and I agree - what I was saying, and I think is relevant to the thread since it was my commenting on their banning of Mega Croissant within their community's rules; was that their (one) reasoning being "to encourage diversity" seemed a bit silly, based off of - like my previous post said, creating one variety of diversity in opening new niches for things that didn't get use prior; to succeed in. I agree with you on why it got banned, the first thing I said in this thread was "Not surprising, it makes sense for their style of play". But c'mon Smogon hahah. Be real tho

I think it's that basically Zapdos/Cress/Pory2/HP Ice Rotom-W are the only good counters in OU (according to Smogon), and that everyone and their mom was using Mega Salamence, you were forced to prepare for it by using one or more of those pokes, and so most teams would probably be using them, meaning less diversity. Think of it like Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin/Defog (which no one ever wants to do anything about grumblgrumble)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJavier (Post 8513314)
Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Ya know, if it doesn't kill them first.

Vinny Vidi Vici November 29th, 2014 6:08 AM

The thing needed to go, it was just too strong for it's tier. It's all well and good saying hit it with an Ice move, but unless you want to run an ice move on everyone of your Pokemon, that thing can find a way to come in, Substitute up, DDance up, and then it's over. It's explained incredibly well in the smogon forum itself, the thing was just way too strong for the tier. Not unlike Mega Kangaskhan when X/Y rolled around. My only question now is when does Mega Slowbro go?

Astraea November 29th, 2014 8:07 AM

Hmm expected it to get banned from OU seeing its stats.

PlatinumDude November 29th, 2014 8:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJavier (Post 8513314)
Mega salamence got smogon'd. Damn, didn't even got to use M-salamence. Dragonite is still better imo. Dragon claw the first turn, survives with multiscale, finish with extreme speed. Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Have you considered that one of the most popular Mega Salamence sets was the bulky Substitute/Dragon Dance set? With that, Mega Salamence can set up a Substitute on a predicted switch/status move, then Dragon Dance as the opponent tries to break the Sub. Sure, stuff like Protean Greninja exists, but they tend to be outsped after a Dragon Dance and decimated by Return afterward. This Salamence variant also has the bulk to shrug off some super effective hits:

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 79-93 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 11.2% chance to 4HKO

#DickBats November 29th, 2014 8:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8513452)
Of course, Let's ban all attackers. It works like this, Pokemon: The Ultimate Stalling Simulator

As I said above, Mega Mence was OP. But, I noticed that the only things that eat the ban hammer are attackers. Quite funny, Isn't it?

^ Seconded

I'm getting tired of battling in showdown. %70 Of the teams have a Chansey. M-Salamence barely 2HKOs Chansey!

Stall teams are legit, but cheap cookie cutter stall teams make boring and annoying battles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8513506)
Have you considered that one of the most popular Mega Salamence sets was the bulky Substitute/Dragon Dance set? With that, Mega Salamence can set up a Substitute on a predicted switch/status move, then Dragon Dance as the opponent tries to break the Sub. Sure, stuff like Protean Greninja exists, but they tend to be outsped after a Dragon Dance and decimated by Return afterward. This Salamence variant also has the bulk to shrug off some super effective hits:

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 79-93 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 11.2% chance to 4HKO

Yeah, well... It's better now.. I guess xD

Nah November 29th, 2014 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8513452)
Of course, Let's ban all attackers. It works like this, Pokemon: The Ultimate Stalling Simulator

As I said above, Mega Mence was OP. But, I noticed that the only things that eat the ban hammer are attackers. Quite funny, Isn't it?

I think that offensive Pokemon are usually the ones that get banned is because of the power creep that Game Freak has been doing since Gen4/Gen5. There's been way more powerful attacker pokes being introduced lately than defensive ones. If you look at the new batch of ORAS megas, only 4 of them are defensive ones: Mega Audino, Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Altaria (and Mega Altaria can also be an offensive poke). The other 16 are all offensively based. There's just not enough defensive Pokemon (in singles) being introduced to counteract all these new super powerful sweepers and tanks.

A base 150 stat used to be considered huge, something that generally only Uber Pokemon had. Nowadays it's becoming common for pokes to have a base 140+ stat. And usually it's in Attack/Sp.Attack/Speed.

Ironically stall teams still eat me alive.

Professor_Jared November 29th, 2014 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8513657)
Yeah... But people just wants to stall. And if something is a threat to their style... They complain about it.

Take two seconds and imagine a meta with more stallers... Quite scary, Isn't it?


And, Stall teams eat me alive as well... Maybe with the time I find a way around them.

Tell me about it, the overabundance of stall teams just makes showdown boring and quite painful to play at times.

Nah November 29th, 2014 10:59 AM

There's too many stall teams? Never seemed like that when I battle. Usually I see more offensive teams (which is what Mega Mence is most threatening to, since they tend to be frail and it outspeeds most of them).

#DickBats November 29th, 2014 12:56 PM

Ferrothorn + Chansey + Rotom W <-- easily more than %30 has this sort of team. Or skarmory instead of Ferrothorn.

The Masked One November 29th, 2014 6:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8513452)
Of course, Let's ban all attackers. It works like this, Pokemon: The Ultimate Stalling Simulator

As I said above, Mega Mence was OP. But, I noticed that the only things that eat the ban hammer are attackers. Quite funny, Isn't it?

What's a stall team? Sorry, I'm a noob to competitive Pokemon. So I'm going to inevitably ask noobish questions.

Also, I don't want to ban any of the attackers. If anything, I think some of Smogon's bans are kinda dumb. But then again, this is coming from the guy who started competitive battling only last December. Lol.

J9794 November 29th, 2014 6:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Masked One (Post 8514049)
What's a stall team? Sorry, I'm a noob to competitive Pokemon. So I'm going to inevitably ask noobish questions.

Also, I don't want to ban any of the attackers. If anything, I think some of Smogon's bans are kinda dumb. But then again, this is coming from the guy who started competitive battling only last December. Lol.


Stall teams are the ones who attempt to win by using residual damage instead of directly attacking. They use defensive pokemon and moves like toxic to wear down the opposing pokemon.

Polar Spectrum November 29th, 2014 10:15 PM

Before whoever above mentioned it, I hadn't really considered the bans of attack vs defensive pokes. So I did some research. Chuckles were had. Some usage stats on Smogon from earlier this year (pre-aegi ban and ORAS release) reveal that Rotom Wash was on roughly 20% of all players teams in their community's battles lol. It seems by usage there are more offensive than defensive in the top used though; but when I look at the banned list... again chuckles were had.

Keeping it on topic though; nothing is surprising about the Mega Salamence ban in that community. It only continues trends I have no need to repeatedly babble on about. Bottom line is people who live by those rules and do what Smogon says will now say farewell to it; while people who do not, will simply not carry on.

I look forward to seeing what roles Mega-Mence will play in the upcoming year's VGC though :3 That - I'm pretty interested in. Wether it becomes as mandatory as Talonflame / Mega Kanga in X/Y's first year or as short lived as the Mega Lucario which went down in one turn with no KO's to show for it in this past year's matches; I will be waiting to see.

WestCoastShiny November 30th, 2014 11:43 AM

I don't think it was a huge surprise that he was gonna get banned, but I still see people acting really surprised that he was. I mean, with a 145? Base attack stat combined with Aerilate and a solid 120 base special attack stat and a diverse movepool COMBINED with 2 great pre-evo abilities, it's just too good. However, I feel that maybe Mega Metagross is a good counter for the common set that was in one of the links. His 150 base defense and his pre-evo ability keeps him safe from intimidate as long as he doesn't mega evolve. Even then, he has tough claws and mega-mence is x4 weak to ice so it'd probably be just enough to break through. Let's also not forget that he has priority in bullet punch which I think is neutral if I'm correct. Just a thought. I don't have calcs to back this up but if someone could do that, that'd be cool. Try both a jolly and adamant nature for mega metagross with 252 attack.

Dark Azelf December 1st, 2014 7:33 AM

It makes me laugh how offensive players moan about something and it gets banned. Mega Mence wasnt really an issue for stall as many common stall mons wrecked it see; Skarm, Zong, Zapdos, Slowbro etc. But if stall players said "Oh actually can we get rid of Mega Medicham, Gardy and Heracross because they are psuedo uncountable oh and Gothitelle because every wall in the game is at risk from its garbage" yet nothing gets done about those lol.

Also if you cant break stall your team synergy/strategy/battling style is bad/flawed and you got outplayed. Sorry but its true. You've got stuff with base 160 offenses, Life Orbs etc and you still cant wall break. Let that sink in. :|

Regardless, its a stupid argument because an ideal metagame should be an environment where all play styles flourish, including stall. Think late DPPtHGSS metagame or RSE.

Anyway, mega mence and mega Ray are a perfect example of bs power creep and show that nintendo needs to STOP with the mega failures, they've clearly jumped the broken shark as shown by mega Ray getting an ENTIRE NEW TIER JUST FOR IT. As ive said before, this isnt digimon, nor do any sane players who strive for balance want **** running around with base 160+ offenses and megas show you're scraping the barrel because they introduced like 30 original new pokemon this gen. Lastly, what have been banned most of all this gen? Megas. Case and point. Personally i would love to see a mega free metagame, then people would actually have to to try when battling and team building instead of spamming <Gee wiz un-wallable unresisted move from base 190 attack>.

Quoth the elf. Forevermore. :)

Ryouta December 1st, 2014 7:55 AM

For normal pokemons is beat an mega evole pokemon very difficult and they are very strong.. :/

SnowpointQuincy December 1st, 2014 10:35 PM

I wonder what will happen to Mega-Salamence in VGC. Nothings gets banned there other than Mascot Legends and such. Mega-Khan was actually fair(ish) in Doubles. Maybe the same will happen here.

Being banned on Smogon is... just look at his stats. Do you think Arcues and Mega-Mewtwo should drop down to OU?

halcyonic December 1st, 2014 11:11 PM

yup totally, arceus-ghost best offensive/defensive spinblocker, mega mewtwo x (gg mega gallade) and mega mewtwo y (chansey exterminator yaa... 6-0s standard stall) -.-

#babagareeb

skyburial December 4th, 2014 10:52 AM

Anything that can take a 4X STAB Ice Beam from my Physical/Mixed Kyurem-B does not belong in the tier, in my opinion. Mega Salamence is ridiculously disruptive.

srinator December 4th, 2014 8:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyburial (Post 8519680)
Anything that can take a 4X STAB Ice Beam from my Physical/Mixed Kyurem-B does not belong in the tier, in my opinion. Mega Salamence is ridiculously disruptive.

what lol.
252 SpA Life Orb Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 655-769 (166.2 - 195.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

even max spd hp mega mence cant take it, changed defences to 95/130/90 lol

Vinny Vidi Vici December 4th, 2014 9:31 PM

Apparently max HP, max SD can take an Ice Beam from an uninvested in SA Kyurem-B (without Life Orb), but even then, it's a coin flip as to whether it OHKOs or not. Maybe Skyburial ran into the wrong Mence on the wrong day, but at any rate, I think anyone who's seen what the tier was like for the brief while Mega Mence was allowed to run roughshod in it will know that the ban was more than justified.

srinator December 5th, 2014 9:12 AM

Why can't we just remove all mega's and have a clean ou tier :/

PlatinumDude December 5th, 2014 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8520785)
Why can't we just remove all mega's and have a clean ou tier :/

Some Mega Pokemon are still underwhelming, like Steelix and Garchomp. Other Pokemon depend on their Mega Evolutions to be effective, like Charizard, Lopunny and Manectric. Even these Megas have their weaknesses.

The only Mega Pokemon that were banned from OU are Kangaskhan, Blaziken, Gengar, Mawile, Lucario and Salamence. This was because they centralized OU to an extent.

skyburial December 5th, 2014 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny Vidi Vici (Post 8520355)
Apparently max HP, max SD can take an Ice Beam from an uninvested in SA Kyurem-B (without Life Orb), but even then, it's a coin flip as to whether it OHKOs or not. Maybe Skyburial ran into the wrong Mence on the wrong day, but at any rate, I think anyone who's seen what the tier was like for the brief while Mega Mence was allowed to run roughshod in it will know that the ban was more than justified.

It's not entirely uninvested. Physical mixed Life Orb with a Lonely nature (56 invested in SpA).

Takes out Megachomp, Landorus-T, Stealth Rock-weakened Dragonite, all the major pre-ORAS points.

Zeffy December 5th, 2014 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8520785)
Why can't we just remove all mega's and have a clean ou tier :/

But that would be similar to playing Gen V where everything is literally ****. happycow

srinator December 5th, 2014 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyburial (Post 8520850)
It's not entirely uninvested. Physical mixed Life Orb with a Lonely nature (56 invested in SpA).

Takes out Megachomp, Landorus-T, Stealth Rock-weakened Dragonite, all the major pre-ORAS points.

Kk
56 SpA Life Orb Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 567-671 (143.9 - 170.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:)

Vinny Vidi Vici December 5th, 2014 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyburial (Post 8520850)
It's not entirely uninvested. Physical mixed Life Orb with a Lonely nature (56 invested in SpA).

Takes out Megachomp, Landorus-T, Stealth Rock-weakened Dragonite, all the major pre-ORAS points.

I think perhaps you must have forgotten to put the Life Orb on it as I've done the calc and with the Life Orb you should be killing every time, even if you have an IV of 0. Without the Life Orb however a max SD (with boosting nature), max HP Mega Mence has chance of living. Here are the calcs (note I adjusted the SD to 90 for Mega Mence):

56 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 372-436 (94.4 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

56 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 484-567 (122.8 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Dark Azelf December 6th, 2014 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8520857)
But that would be similar to playing Gen V where everything is literally ****. happycow

Isnt that a good thing?

Plus i find it hilarious that if you took the megas away, you'd see that they've introduced absolutely NOTHING new, original etc this gen. :\

P.s megas arent original. They're recycled, digimon-esque, laziest excuse for a game, psuedo uber pokemon lol.

P.s.s. Why are we arguing and doing calcs on how well salamence takes a STAB ICE BEAM? :| "Not very" would be the answer lol.

Nah December 6th, 2014 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8522264)
Isnt that a good thing?

Plus i find it hilarious that if you took the megas away, you'd see that they've introduced absolutely NOTHING new, original etc this gen. :\

P.s megas arent original. They're recycled, digimon-esque, laziest excuse for a game, psuedo uber pokemon lol.

P.s.s. Why are we arguing and doing calcs on how well salamence takes a STAB ICE BEAM? :| "Not very" would be the answer lol.

Not sure why'd you say that nothing was introduced this gen. There's 70ish new Pokemon, the Fairy type, Defog is usuable now, and they got rid of perma-weather, ending those goddamn weather wars we had in Gen V. Sure, it might not be as ground breaking as some of the stuff introduced in previous gens, but it's not nothing.

But I agree that running calcs on how well Mega Mence takes STAB Ice Beams is dumb though.
Guys....it's Salamence. It doesn't take Ice Beams. It only wishes it could.

srinator December 6th, 2014 7:58 PM

I wasn't doing calcs on how well mence takes ice beams, was trying to point that it doesn't.
Lrn2readup

KorpiklaaniVodka December 7th, 2014 3:08 AM

And to think Mega Mence is S-rank in the Ubers viability ranking thread...

Nah December 7th, 2014 5:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8522791)
I wasn't doing calcs on how well mence takes ice beams, was trying to point that it doesn't.
Lrn2readup

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmourPearlShipper (Post 8523103)
And to think Mega Mence is S-rank in the Ubers viability ranking thread...

Is it really? I need to play more Ubres to see how that thing does in there....

Dark Azelf December 7th, 2014 8:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8523353)
Another type?,That's new if I'm correct. The last two types that we had were Steel and Dark before fairy.

Some megas are cool, I'm going to admit that other ones are like puke. Psuedo Ubers? It happens the same with other pokes, They wall you to death and nobody complains about it. If attackers are going to be chased to death I'm going to start playing Ubers. I just say, Let's make things fair for both sides I still think that Mega Salamence's battlefield is Ubers, He was born for that ****.

PS: Really.... Salamence hates cold, Even Aurora Beam with STAB would be an OHKO.

Yep, psuedo ubers. Megas have BETTER stats, moves and typing than some ubers lol.

Also maybe i should elaborate about the "nothing new". Most viable fairies were in the game before except with a different typing. They arent new lol. Same with Defog and weather changes etc. That is just a simple mechanic change, not being totally new. As with megas, its just a totally reused and revamped concept, it isnt new. Those pokemon/moves were already in the game. Also mega evolving is a digimon rip off but i digress.

Also the 70 or so "new" pokemon are generally inferior or just plain suck. There are only a few usable/OU ones. :\ RS, DP, GS, even BW introduced about 100-150 new ones each.

Quote:

They wall you to death and nobody complains about it.
If you lose to stall, your team has flaws. You get life orbs, choice items, stat boosting moves, defog, things with base 160+ offenses. You simply got outplayed, and the ratio of bs attackers to bs walls is ridiculous at this current time in favor of offense js.

Lastly, ive alluded to this in a previous post, but its always offensive players that get what they want and the best of bans. Mega Mence wasnt really too threatening against stall or bulky offense (4mss [using Outrage? Cool you cant hit Heatran or Skarm etc] and common stall pokemon stop it cold, it just maimed offense because it was hard to revenge kill and check with offensive pokes. On the other hand if stall players said "Oh hera, gardy and gothitelle are bs to counter they should be banned because nothing walls them and using gothitelle is admitting you have no wallbreaking skill" nothing would be done lol. Which is the main reason i think its ridiculous when we should be striving for balance and we are letting these megas roam free when there is a clear bias lol. :|

Dark Azelf December 7th, 2014 9:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8523394)
Hmm... You're right about my teams, Lol. I'm not a pro.

About the "New" stuff, The weather was something nice to have. And the pokes, Yeah 6th gen sucks hard, On everything.

And Mega Mence.. If you have to run Scarf Greninja to outspeed it... You tell me. For me, If I can outspeed it and OHKO it it's not a threat, But running Scarf Greninja is like using Swords Dance on Chansey.


I wasnt specifically saying your teams, i meant in general. :P

The last point you make basically sums my argument up about striving for balance and why megas arent healthy for it. I could say the same. Why should i be forced to run something as ****** as Doublade in order to stop mega gardy, or pack my team with things that gothitelle cant trap? Just as offense shouldn't have to run garbage things like Scarf Greninja to beat mega mence.

Also Swords Dance has more use than just Chansey js lol so i dont think thats a good argument. When you have to run something specifically to beat something else, thats when it becomes questionable see: Scarf Ninja for mence, on the other hand Chansey has many things that beat it.

Polar Spectrum December 7th, 2014 3:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8523376)
Also maybe i should elaborate about the "nothing new". Most viable fairies were in the game before except with a different typing. They arent new lol. Same with Defog and weather changes etc. That is just a simple mechanic change, not being totally new. As with megas, its just a totally reused and revamped concept, it isnt new. Those pokemon/moves were already in the game. Also mega evolving is a digimon rip off but i digress.

The pokemon were in the games before; yes. But the typing was not, and that's a huge deal. There was no type that hit fighting, dark, and dragon super effective, nor a type that resisted the former 2 and was immune to the latter. That's a huuuuge balancing issue addressed. If you want to say Moonblast, as a 95 base power move that hits all three of those super effectively isn't a new addition, then how can any gen be considered to have introduced any new moves; being as all pokemon are weak to other types, that have moves, that have existed since at least gen 1/2? And just because you don't see new content playing solely on Showdown within certain rule sets doesn't mean it's not there - it more of means you just don't personally care for it, or aren't exposed to it within the small portion of content you're exposed to from the new games within that medium / playstyle.

This ties into mega salamence being banned from OU lol. Mostly because being banned from OU, essentially means Swagon players can discount Mega Salamence from being substantial new content introduced in ORAS / sixth gen. Because it's now removed from what they consider 'standard play' - it may as well not even be there for the bulky demographic who can't / refuses to stray outside of that one playlist on showdown.

skyburial December 9th, 2014 10:45 AM

Were I to choose a first poke for the Bug/Dragon typing, it would be Yanmega, for a few reasons.

First and foremost, Mega Yanmega is just fun to say, and ridiculously meme-able, which would result in creative nicknames. In my opinion, this is part of what energizes the metagame.

Second, Dragon-type megas and Bug-Type megas are both too centralized around physical attackers. With ORAS, this problem was slightly alleviated for Dragon, and not at all for Bug. So we've got all these answers for Bug-types in OU that can go completely unchecked on the special side.

Third, mega evolution often comes with a move pool expansion, and Yanmega's move pool is weak sauce without Tinted Lense. So this would not only give Yanmega the bump it deserves, but diversify the sets that we run on the rest of the tier.

I'm not sure if the same can be said for Flygon.


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