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-   -   Mega Salamence banned from OU (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=339491)

Nah November 28th, 2014 12:26 PM

Mega Salamence banned from OU
 

Today the Smogon community announced that Mega Salamence has been banned from the OU tier, with their reasoning contained in this post:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/salamencite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3523082/

So I was thinking that maybe we could talk about it a bit or something.

Pendraflare November 28th, 2014 12:38 PM

I don't think anybody didn't see it coming. Between its crazy Attack stat, great Defense and other stats all-around, along with its massive move capabilities, it wasn't going to stick around. It doesn't help that people had to resort to mostly unnecessary gimmicks like Choice Scarf Greninja just to have a shot at defeating it. It had to go.

Hikamaru November 28th, 2014 12:44 PM

I totally called this right from the get-go. Aerilate + impressive defensive capabilities = little effort to sweep. Lots of players were very limited with teambuilding because they had to use specific Pokemon just to get past this beast, and now with it gone it will make teams in OU diverse and not too centralized again.

In fact, I remember posting in the DCC this would be the first banning of the OR/AS competitive era and it was spot-on.

Professor_Jared November 28th, 2014 12:44 PM

Not surprised by this at all, Mega Salamence is a monster whose attack, both defenses, and speed are even more beastly than Charizard X. Combine that with Intimidate, Moxie, Aerilate, Dragon Dance, Facade, and Substitute and you have a Mega that can tear through 99.9 percent of the OU metagame even better than Mega Kangaskhan.

Dedenne1 November 28th, 2014 2:01 PM

It was anticipated and surely there will be others possibly mega metagross as well.

Nah November 28th, 2014 3:29 PM

I also had a feeling it was gonna get banned, from what I had heard in the main server lobby (ya know, when it's not filled with spam or ****).

I agree with the first two points made in the Smogon post; clearly Mega Mence has great stats, a good ability, and a good movepool, all of which make it a top threat. But the 3rd point I find a little....odd:

Quote:

The amount of teams that run obscure and niche counters/revenge killers on the ladder is impressive. People are forced to run defensive Porygon-2, HP Ice Rotom-W, defensive Zapdos and Cresselia in order to deal with the threat that Mega Salamence represents. On top of that, none of these Pokémon are exactly viable on offensive teams, meaning that said teams are either forced to run gimmicks such as Choice Scarf Greninja in order to revenge kill Mega Salamence or to completely twist their structure and sacrifice a Pokémon slot to carry a dedicated answer to it.
Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

Pinkie-Dawn November 28th, 2014 3:49 PM

Well now I'm feeling a bit intimidated to face one myself once I reach the Delta Episode in-game or from an online battle. At least there's still Sceptile and Altaria for those who want a Hoenn Dragon type with a Mega Evolution. I fear that Mega Sableye may also be next line after what happened with Mega Mawile.

Anti November 28th, 2014 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8512770)
I also had a feeling it was gonna get banned, from what I had heard in the main server lobby (ya know, when it's not filled with spam or ****).

I agree with the first two points made in the Smogon post; clearly Mega Mence has great stats, a good ability, and a good movepool, all of which make it a top threat. But the 3rd point I find a little....odd:

quote: The amount of teams that run obscure and niche counters/revenge killers on the ladder is impressive. People are forced to run defensive Porygon-2, HP Ice Rotom-W, defensive Zapdos and Cresselia in order to deal with the threat that Mega Salamence represents. On top of that, none of these Pokémon are exactly viable on offensive teams, meaning that said teams are either forced to run gimmicks such as Choice Scarf Greninja in order to revenge kill Mega Salamence or to completely twist their structure and sacrifice a Pokémon slot to carry a dedicated answer to it.

Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

I would try replacing the word "obscure" with "otherwise bad" and I think you'll find it to be a valid point. Whether they're OU or not, these are simply not top-tier mons. Would they be seeing usage without Mega Salamence around? (By good players. Zapdos is actually kinda bad.) HP Ice Rotom is a minor adaptation, so I'm inclined to say it's not "unhealthy." The others, though, I just wouldn't want to run, especially if I'm running an offense team. I don't want to be forced to run these mediocre Pokemon just so I can delay Mega Salamence ripping me apart, and I think that's the point. They are both bad (if only relatively so) and few in number, thereby restricting team-building. I think that's all they're trying to say.

Pendraflare November 28th, 2014 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8512770)
Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

Well the reason they're defined as such is because you rarely see them in OU (if at all), and in addition to what Anti said above me (and as I said a few posts above), you shouldn't have to use gimmicks like Choice Scarf Greninja or HP Ice Rotom-W just to defeat a Mega Evolution, which isn't helped by the fact that you'll find almost no use for it at all outside of such. Remember Garchomp in Generation IV, and Excadrill in Generation V, and how much team centralizing they required? Teams had to run a lot of counters to properly handle Garchomp or they would lose to it themselves. Think about that, and then you'll probably get where they're coming from.

J9794 November 28th, 2014 7:18 PM

Wow, I only played on showdown since I couldn't get ORAS yet, but didn't know Salamence was so powerful. Probably because I mainly played doubles leading with mega aerodactyl who OHKO'd it with ice fang all the times I met one.

Polar Spectrum November 28th, 2014 8:03 PM

Not too surprising, it makes sense for their style of play - fare thee well from that scene; mega Croissant. However, on its banning -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikamaru (Post 8512639)
and now with it gone it will make teams in OU diverse and not too centralized again.

I disagree, based on the contradiction to that statement this subsequently brings up-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8512770)
Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

If it was encouraging lesser used pokemon to suddenly be used in response to it... isn't it increasing the diversity of their OU tier? And banning it in response - is just going to continue to give reign to the same top mons prior to its debut - won't it? Just a thought.

Zeffy November 28th, 2014 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8512999)
If it was encouraging lesser used pokemon to suddenly be used in response to it... isn't it increasing the diversity of their OU tier? And banning it in response - is just going to continue to give reign to the same top mons prior to its debut - won't it? Just a thought.

So, you're saying that using the same Pokemon on every team just to counter an otherwise almost unstoppable threat increases diversity? Somehow, I do not follow that logic. Additionally, using those said Pokemon only lowers the user's knowledge of the entire metagame. They are so constricted in trying to focus on countering a single thing that they forget about the plethora of other threats out there. I mean, I'm not saying that Porygon2 is a terrible Pokemon, by any chance, but it is bizarre to use it on an offensive team where it would otherwise ruin momentum.

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.

Cerberus87 November 28th, 2014 9:46 PM

Hahaha power creep is a funny thing... I'm from a time when Zapdos was good. :P

Polar Spectrum November 28th, 2014 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8513082)
So, you're saying that using the same Pokemon on every team just to counter an otherwise almost unstoppable threat increases diversity? Somehow, I do not follow that logic. Additionally, using those said Pokemon only lowers the user's knowledge of the entire metagame. They are so constricted in trying to focus on countering a single thing that they forget about the plethora of other threats out there. I mean, I'm not saying that Porygon2 is a terrible Pokemon, by any chance, but it is bizarre to use it on an offensive team where it would otherwise ruin momentum.

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.

Erm, perhaps I phrased my question poorly. What I'm saying is - the problem was allegedly Salamence dominating the tier. So in response; their community started using different, new, or lesser seen things than were typical for that tier, to handle it. So in response to that, they ban Salamence so people can go... back? To using different things? Than they... already were? It just seems like an odd reasoning, wether it's right or not - to state that you're adding to the list of things you're not allowing people to use, which made people use different things - so they can in turn use different things.

lol I'm still not phrasing this very well. I'll just roll with "Hah - Smogon's OU tier saw a small shift in its 'diverse' roster of pokemon that see usage in it briefly. But it looks like they're eliminating another new thing to preserve its... already 'diverse' pool of pokemon that see usage in it."

The Masked One November 28th, 2014 10:33 PM

I was expecting this. I'm glad I wanted to use Flygon on my competitive team in the first place, because I knew if Salamence got a mega it'd be banned the first chance Smogon got. I wonder if Mega Altaria will bite the dust next

KorpiklaaniVodka November 28th, 2014 10:46 PM

Honestly I never had much trouble with MegaMence, possibly because of me running Sylveon + Weavile + CB Talon to break offense, but I agree with the quickban. It was too restrictive to teambuilding, could set up on almost anything or lure a would-be physical check and deal massive damage with Draco Meteor or Fire Blast.

Zeffy November 28th, 2014 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8513105)
lol I'm still not phrasing this very well. I'll just roll with "Hah - Smogon's OU tier saw a small shift in its 'diverse' roster of pokemon that see usage in it briefly. But it looks like they're eliminating another new thing to preserve its... already 'diverse' pool of pokemon that see usage in it."

have you read this part of my post?
Quote:

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.
In any case, a person who aims to have fun AND win would prefer to use the best Pokemon for a certain role. The definition of what is the "best" Pokemon differs in each person's case, though, which is why teambuilding skill is the most important skill a battler should have. Really, I would implore you to explore more of Smogon's battling repertoire. It seems that your conclusions are based on a quick whim.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. It's not like there are much to discuss regarding this quick ban, though.

Polar Spectrum November 29th, 2014 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8513181)
have you read this part of my post?


In any case, a person who aims to have fun AND win would prefer to use the best Pokemon for a certain role. The definition of what is the "best" Pokemon differs in each person's case, though, which is why teambuilding skill is the most important skill a battler should have. Really, I would implore you to explore more of Smogon's battling repertoire. It seems that your conclusions are based on a quick whim.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. It's not like there are much to discuss regarding this quick ban, though.

Oh no no, I absolutely read that, and I agree - what I was saying, and I think is relevant to the thread since it was my commenting on their banning of Mega Croissant within their community's rules; was that their (one) reasoning being "to encourage diversity" seemed a bit silly, based off of - like my previous post said, creating one variety of diversity in opening new niches for things that didn't get use prior; to succeed in. I agree with you on why it got banned, the first thing I said in this thread was "Not surprising, it makes sense for their style of play". But c'mon Smogon hahah. Be real tho

#DickBats November 29th, 2014 4:39 AM

Mega salamence got smogon'd. Damn, didn't even got to use M-salamence. Dragonite is still better imo. Dragon claw the first turn, survives with multiscale, finish with extreme speed. Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Nah November 29th, 2014 5:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8513189)
Oh no no, I absolutely read that, and I agree - what I was saying, and I think is relevant to the thread since it was my commenting on their banning of Mega Croissant within their community's rules; was that their (one) reasoning being "to encourage diversity" seemed a bit silly, based off of - like my previous post said, creating one variety of diversity in opening new niches for things that didn't get use prior; to succeed in. I agree with you on why it got banned, the first thing I said in this thread was "Not surprising, it makes sense for their style of play". But c'mon Smogon hahah. Be real tho

I think it's that basically Zapdos/Cress/Pory2/HP Ice Rotom-W are the only good counters in OU (according to Smogon), and that everyone and their mom was using Mega Salamence, you were forced to prepare for it by using one or more of those pokes, and so most teams would probably be using them, meaning less diversity. Think of it like Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin/Defog (which no one ever wants to do anything about grumblgrumble)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJavier (Post 8513314)
Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Ya know, if it doesn't kill them first.

Vinny Vidi Vici November 29th, 2014 6:08 AM

The thing needed to go, it was just too strong for it's tier. It's all well and good saying hit it with an Ice move, but unless you want to run an ice move on everyone of your Pokemon, that thing can find a way to come in, Substitute up, DDance up, and then it's over. It's explained incredibly well in the smogon forum itself, the thing was just way too strong for the tier. Not unlike Mega Kangaskhan when X/Y rolled around. My only question now is when does Mega Slowbro go?

Astraea November 29th, 2014 8:07 AM

Hmm expected it to get banned from OU seeing its stats.

PlatinumDude November 29th, 2014 8:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJavier (Post 8513314)
Mega salamence got smogon'd. Damn, didn't even got to use M-salamence. Dragonite is still better imo. Dragon claw the first turn, survives with multiscale, finish with extreme speed. Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Have you considered that one of the most popular Mega Salamence sets was the bulky Substitute/Dragon Dance set? With that, Mega Salamence can set up a Substitute on a predicted switch/status move, then Dragon Dance as the opponent tries to break the Sub. Sure, stuff like Protean Greninja exists, but they tend to be outsped after a Dragon Dance and decimated by Return afterward. This Salamence variant also has the bulk to shrug off some super effective hits:

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 79-93 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 11.2% chance to 4HKO

#DickBats November 29th, 2014 8:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8513452)
Of course, Let's ban all attackers. It works like this, Pokemon: The Ultimate Stalling Simulator

As I said above, Mega Mence was OP. But, I noticed that the only things that eat the ban hammer are attackers. Quite funny, Isn't it?

^ Seconded

I'm getting tired of battling in showdown. %70 Of the teams have a Chansey. M-Salamence barely 2HKOs Chansey!

Stall teams are legit, but cheap cookie cutter stall teams make boring and annoying battles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude (Post 8513506)
Have you considered that one of the most popular Mega Salamence sets was the bulky Substitute/Dragon Dance set? With that, Mega Salamence can set up a Substitute on a predicted switch/status move, then Dragon Dance as the opponent tries to break the Sub. Sure, stuff like Protean Greninja exists, but they tend to be outsped after a Dragon Dance and decimated by Return afterward. This Salamence variant also has the bulk to shrug off some super effective hits:

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 79-93 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 11.2% chance to 4HKO

Yeah, well... It's better now.. I guess xD

Nah November 29th, 2014 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8513452)
Of course, Let's ban all attackers. It works like this, Pokemon: The Ultimate Stalling Simulator

As I said above, Mega Mence was OP. But, I noticed that the only things that eat the ban hammer are attackers. Quite funny, Isn't it?

I think that offensive Pokemon are usually the ones that get banned is because of the power creep that Game Freak has been doing since Gen4/Gen5. There's been way more powerful attacker pokes being introduced lately than defensive ones. If you look at the new batch of ORAS megas, only 4 of them are defensive ones: Mega Audino, Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Altaria (and Mega Altaria can also be an offensive poke). The other 16 are all offensively based. There's just not enough defensive Pokemon (in singles) being introduced to counteract all these new super powerful sweepers and tanks.

A base 150 stat used to be considered huge, something that generally only Uber Pokemon had. Nowadays it's becoming common for pokes to have a base 140+ stat. And usually it's in Attack/Sp.Attack/Speed.

Ironically stall teams still eat me alive.


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