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-   -   Obese Women Claims She Was Denied Full Health Care Over Her Weight (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=342656)

Saki January 18th, 2015 4:38 AM

Obese Women Claims She Was Denied Full Health Care Over Her Weight
 
New Article Link:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/obese-woman-files-b-c-human-rights-complaint-over-alleged-rehab-denial-1.2916342

Summary: A clinically obese women ends up filing for a human rights complaint as she is denied (she claimed) full health care and rehabilitation after a hip surgery. She claimed that the doctor's saw her as a waste of time due to her current weight. *The hospital claims she resided there for over 126 days - which was the longest of the specific unit in over 6 years. *During this time she was provided with the only private room in the unit as well.

At the time of her hip surgery she was 440 lbs, and advised to lose another 100. Her surgical wound became infected and at this time she was readmitted.

Questions/Comments/Opinions:

It's difficult to draw a conclusion about "which side to take" in this circumstance. Based on the information the hospital provided (see sentences with a *) do you think she (the patient) is overreacting? OR as someone who may need more care (because she is obese) do you think she should be given a higher level of care due to this? Should obese individuals receive more care due to the increased health concern they face?

Should clinically obese people shoulder the burden of possible increased health care that they require in terms of money when compared to another individual who receives the same care? It is unknown if this women required surgery and/or a longer hospital stay due to her weight.

Do you think there is a stigma against overweight and/or obese people in the medical industry?

Kanzler January 18th, 2015 8:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8584628)
New Article Link:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/obese-woman-files-b-c-human-rights-complaint-over-alleged-rehab-denial-1.2916342

Summary: A clinically obese women ends up filing for a human rights complaint as she is denied (she claimed) full health care and rehabilitation after a hip surgery. She claimed that the doctor's saw her as a waste of time due to her current weight. *The hospital claims she resided there for over 126 days - which was the longest of the specific unit in over 6 years. *During this time she was provided with the only private room in the unit as well.

At the time of her hip surgery she was 440 lbs, and advised to lose another 100. Her surgical wound became infected and at this time she was readmitted.

Questions/Comments/Opinions:

It's difficult to draw a conclusion about "which side to take" in this circumstance. Based on the information the hospital provided (see sentences with a *) do you think she (the patient) is overreacting? OR as someone who may need more care (because she is obese) do you think she should be given a higher level of care due to this? Should obese individuals receive more care due to the increased health concern they face?

Should clinically obese people shoulder the burden of possible increased health care that they require in terms of money when compared to another individual who receives the same care? It is unknown if this women required surgery and/or a longer hospital stay due to her weight.

Do you think there is a stigma against overweight and/or obese people in the medical industry?

Well, from the doctor's perspective, yeah she is a waste of time. Every surgical procedure that is manageable on a regular patient is a nightmare because of fat being everywhere and occluding anatomical landmarks, and I'm not even speaking about a obese patient's ability to be fit enough to endure the surgery. That's why a doctor would advise somebody to lose weight, so the doctor feels that the operation would be safe enough for the patient. Unless she wants to shell out some money and look out for a doctor who can do hip surgeries on 440 lbs people (which I presume to be less than doctors who do hip surgeries on 340 lbs people), she should know that a doctor who does not feel confident operating on a woman of her weight should not have to. I mean, come on now, the doctor's done the math.

gimmepie January 18th, 2015 9:01 AM

Do you think she (the patient) is overreacting?
I honestly do. To me it just sounds like she took offence at being told about the way her weight was hindering her recovery prospects and started a ridiculous shitstorm over it.

Should obese individuals receive more care due to the increased health concern they face?
If they are among the few who can actually prove there is a medical reason (some sort of disorder or disease) for their obesity then yes. However, if they just eat a lot of unhealthy food and don't exercise enough then they are willingly putting their health at risk and deserve no special treatment.

Should clinically obese people shoulder the burden of possible increased health care that they require in terms of money when compared to another individual who receives the same care?
If there is a medical reason for their disorder, then no.
If there isn't, yes.

Health care or insurance are like gambling. The organisation responsible is basically betting that you won't get sick because they have to pay out if you do. So naturally it makes sense that if they are betting with worse odds due to a person's eating and exercise habits, their should be a greater pay out in the form of higher fees.

Saki January 18th, 2015 9:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 8584866)
Do you think she (the patient) is overreacting?
I honestly do. To me it just sounds like she took offence at being told about the way her weight was hindering her recovery prospects and started a ridiculous shitstorm over it.

Should obese individuals receive more care due to the increased health concern they face?
If they are among the few who can actually prove there is a medical reason (some sort of disorder or disease) for their obesity then yes. However, if they just eat a lot of unhealthy food and don't exercise enough then they are willingly putting their health at risk and deserve no special treatment.

Should clinically obese people shoulder the burden of possible increased health care that they require in terms of money when compared to another individual who receives the same care?
If there is a medical reason for their disorder, then no.
If there isn't, yes.

Health care or insurance are like gambling. The organisation responsible is basically betting that you won't get sick because they have to pay out if you do. So naturally it makes sense that if they are betting with worse odds due to a person's eating and exercise habits, their should be a greater pay out in the form of higher fees.

You make a great point that we should separate obesity with medical reasons and without. But where do we draw the line? Is a mental health disorder a "medical reason", as such in people who "eat their feelings" due to high anxiety and chronic depression?

What do we do with the people who were raised in obese families and essentially "taught" the behaviour of over eating or eating mostly high carb/fat/unhealthy foods? In your personal opinion do they fall under the "obese by choice" spectrum?

Just curious about your thoughts! If you don't have much to say about my new questions then no worries ^_^

gimmepie January 18th, 2015 9:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8584877)
You make a great point that we should separate obesity with medical reasons and without. But where do we draw the line? Is a mental health disorder a "medical reason", as such in people who "eat their feelings" due to high anxiety and chronic depression?

I'm not as sure on this one as I'd like to be, but the general gist is no I don't think "eating your feelings should" count. If you are depressed or anxious the only leniency you really deserve is involving psychologist/psychiatrist fees and antidepressants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8584877)
What do we do with the people who were raised in obese families and essentially "taught" the behaviour of over eating or eating mostly high carb/fat/unhealthy foods? In your personal opinion do they fall under the "obese by choice" spectrum?

There should be absolutely zero special treatment here. There is plenty of education in Health and PE from as early as primary school (that is certainly the case here and I assume in plenty of other places) about the negative affects of obesity and how to keep one's body healthy. If anything seeing how it affects your own family on top of that information should make you even less inclined to ruin your body lie that. A person like that is as irresponsible as a smoker who watched family member's die from lung cancer and deserves no special treatment.

Saki January 18th, 2015 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 8584889)
I'm not as sure on this one as I'd like to be, but the general gist is no I don't think "eating your feelings should" count. If you are depressed or anxious the only leniency you really deserve is involving psychologist/psychiatrist fees and antidepressants.

I'm really unsure about this one either. The more I learn about mental health the more I want to treat it the same as other ailments/disease.

Quote:

There should be absolutely zero special treatment here. There is plenty of education in Health and PE from as early as primary school (that is certainly the case here and I assume in plenty of other places) about the negative affects of obesity and how to keep one's body healthy. If anything seeing how it affects your own family on top of that information should make you even less inclined to ruin your body lie that. A person like that is as irresponsible as a smoker who watched family member's die from lung cancer and deserves no special treatment.
I agree with these statements though. :) I think everyone has the power to change. It might be difficult (especially if it's how you were raised) and it may take sometime, but we are responsible for our own choices. I understand not everyone is privy to the best education, the money for healthy food, etc worldwide but for the most part I think these statements hold true for most of wester civilization. I am sure there are exceptions though!

Kanzler January 18th, 2015 9:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8584898)
I'm really unsure about this one either. The more I learn about mental health the more I want to treat it the same as other ailments/disease.

Why? I think it's important to explain this because it doesn't come across intuitively to many people.

Saki January 18th, 2015 9:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanzler (Post 8584901)
Why? I think it's important to explain this because it doesn't come across intuitively to many people.

If someone has cancer due to smoking cigarettes they receive medical treatment just as someone who has cancer for genetic reasons. It's not that doctors confirm why they have cancer, but more or less confirm its presence and go from there with treatments. They don't look for a cause and say "oh hey, you decided to smoke so that's your problem. Your treatment isn't covered like someone who developed cancer for X reason".

If someone has poor mental health and as a result they become obese then why aren't they treated the same as a person with some sort of purely genetic disorder that causes obesity?

ANARCHit3cht January 18th, 2015 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8584919)
If someone has cancer due to smoking cigarettes they receive medical treatment just as someone who has cancer for genetic reasons. It's not that doctors confirm why they have cancer, but more or less confirm its presence and go from there with treatments. They don't look for a cause and say "oh hey, you decided to smoke so that's your problem. Your treatment isn't covered like someone who developed cancer for X reason".

If someone has poor mental health and as a result they become obese then why aren't they treated the same as a person with some sort of purely genetic disorder that causes obesity?

Largely because if it is a poor mental health issue that has lead to their obesity it is largely correctable by many other means. I think that an easily reversible health issue(not including a genetic diseases) is a poor comparison to something that can mostly just be treated as opposed to "cured." Things like exercise, a proper diet and other things that would typically lead to less obesity also lead to a greater mental health. And vice versa.

Saki January 18th, 2015 5:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANARCHit3cht (Post 8585442)
Largely because if it is a poor mental health issue that has lead to their obesity it is largely correctable by many other means. I think that an easily reversible health issue(not including a genetic diseases) is a poor comparison to something that can mostly just be treated as opposed to "cured." Things like exercise, a proper diet and other things that would typically lead to less obesity also lead to a greater mental health. And vice versa.

You make a good point but a lot of mental health issues are not easily curable. A lot of them are life long struggles that you can learn to manage but cannot "cure" on a whim. I truly think it depends on the person. But due to your points and my personal knowledge of this sort of thing it's very hard to take a stance on whether I think mental health is on the same level with a genetic disease that causes people to be overweight.

I honestly don't even know if there are genetic diseases that cause obsitiy that are not treatable, now that I come to think of it o.o

ANARCHit3cht January 18th, 2015 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8585455)
You make a good point but a lot of mental health issues are not easily curable. A lot of them are life long struggles that you can learn to manage but cannot "cure" on a whim. I truly think it depends on the person. But due to your points and my personal knowledge of this sort of thing it's very hard to take a stance on whether I think mental health is on the same level with a genetic disease that causes people to be overweight.

I honestly don't even know if there are genetic diseases that cause obsitiy that are not treatable, now that I come to think of it o.o

Oh that's not what I meant at all. Obesity, unless it stems from some sort of genetic disorder or something of that vein is "easy" to reverse in that maintaining a good diet and workout regiment will cause you to lose weight. And even if you're depressed and eat ten tubs of icecream for dinner every night, you can arguably at some point in time decide that you're physical health is of some importance to you. If you don't want to make that decision to better yourself, that's no ones fault but your own.

To compare it to your cancer thing here is what I have to say. While it is generally true that you choose to smoke cigarettes you DON'T choose to get cancer. While you might not CHOOSE to be depressed or suffer from another mental disorder, you DO choose to let it affect your physical health in addition to your mental health. In the first instance a choice you make promotes a non choice(smoking -> contracting cancer) in the second instance, a non-choice promotes a choice (mental disorder -> having health issues bc of mental disorder). Smoking doesn't always lead to cancer, but you have no control over whether it does or not. A mental disorder doesnt always lead to health problems, but you have a much greater degree of control over those health issues.

Saki January 18th, 2015 6:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANARCHit3cht (Post 8585458)
Oh that's not what I meant at all. Obesity, unless it stems from some sort of genetic disorder or something of that vein is "easy" to reverse in that maintaining a good diet and workout regiment will cause you to lose weight. And even if you're depressed and eat ten tubs of icecream for dinner every night, you can arguably at some point in time decide that you're physical health is of some importance to you. If you don't want to make that decision to better yourself, that's no ones fault but your own.

To compare it to your cancer thing here is what I have to say. While it is generally true that you choose to smoke cigarettes you DON'T choose to get cancer. While you might not CHOOSE to be depressed or suffer from another mental disorder, you DO choose to let it affect your physical health in addition to your mental health. In the first instance a choice you make promotes a non choice(smoking -> contracting cancer) in the second instance, a non-choice promotes a choice (mental disorder -> having health issues bc of mental disorder). Smoking doesn't always lead to cancer, but you have no control over whether it does or not. A mental disorder doesnt always lead to health problems, but you have a much greater degree of control over those health issues.

I guess I am open to the possibility that you do not choose to gain weight from a mental disorder. I am unsure about how I feel though since I don't really know the evidence behind it. Poor mental health or mental health disorders often mean we cannot or have an incredibly difficult time choosing something. We experience a hormonal imbalance or a deeply establish personality disorder and our decision making takes a toll.

I can see and understand your point though. Just not sure where I stand.

ANARCHit3cht January 18th, 2015 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8585471)
I guess I am open to the possibility that you do not choose to gain weight from a mental disorder. I am unsure about how I feel though since I don't really know the evidence behind it. Poor mental health or mental health disorders often mean we cannot or have an incredibly difficult time choosing something. We experience a hormonal imbalance or a deeply establish personality disorder and our decision making takes a toll.

I can see and understand your point though. Just not sure where I stand.

I see what you're saying, and I agree with your sentiment that I'm not sure where I stand. It's a difficult situation and it is the type of thing that is going to largely vary from person to person and disorder to disorder. From what I see, however, (and please excuse anecdotal evidence, I don't even know how I would go about gathering the proper data to align with my crimes, but I can look into it later) a lot of people can make a positive choice for their life even when suffering from these disorders. If they aren't capable of making it themselves, I've seen various medications work wonders on evening out those hormonal imbalances and regulating personality. Of course not everyone will see the same results but I largely see people capable of making such choices. It might not always be the easiest choice to make, but once you've made that choice the steps to take are relatively easy to follow.

If you have a mental order and it made you gain a health problem such as obesity, should you choose to do something about the physical issue you have a very clear path ahead of you. Eat a more wholesome/beneficial diet--losing weight usually means creating a calorie defecit in regards to your needed caloric allowance to maintain your current weight. And to exercise, typically cardio, to burn the fat. On the other hand, if you have cancer there are various treatments but they tend to have very mixed results and can often come with terrible side effects. For example, a friend of mine had to get a double mastectomy. She is now cancer free, but she also lost what is arguably a definitive part of woman hood.

Saki January 19th, 2015 3:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANARCHit3cht (Post 8585515)
I see what you're saying, and I agree with your sentiment that I'm not sure where I stand. It's a difficult situation and it is the type of thing that is going to largely vary from person to person and disorder to disorder. From what I see, however, (and please excuse anecdotal evidence, I don't even know how I would go about gathering the proper data to align with my crimes, but I can look into it later) a lot of people can make a positive choice for their life even when suffering from these disorders. If they aren't capable of making it themselves, I've seen various medications work wonders on evening out those hormonal imbalances and regulating personality. Of course not everyone will see the same results but I largely see people capable of making such choices. It might not always be the easiest choice to make, but once you've made that choice the steps to take are relatively easy to follow.

If you have a mental order and it made you gain a health problem such as obesity, should you choose to do something about the physical issue you have a very clear path ahead of you. Eat a more wholesome/beneficial diet--losing weight usually means creating a calorie defecit in regards to your needed caloric allowance to maintain your current weight. And to exercise, typically cardio, to burn the fat. On the other hand, if you have cancer there are various treatments but they tend to have very mixed results and can often come with terrible side effects. For example, a friend of mine had to get a double mastectomy. She is now cancer free, but she also lost what is arguably a definitive part of woman hood.

I am sorry to hear about your friend. I am sure that was not easy.

And yes, it's definitely easy (relative to having a terminal illness) to work towards getting fit. I think the disparity in my answer lies in getting people medicated now. I know that's a difficult one! But regardless I am unsure if there are many people who have such weight problems because of mental illness. From all of my experiences it's been the opposite in that people have weight issues... but it's because they eat too little.

I'm glad we can discuss this and help form a better opinion though. It does seem like it (at least from the gaps in our knowledge) that obesity from mental health is far more treatable over all - although I do not doubt there are some very special cases where it's next to impossible for the patient. I think it's one of those grey areas (to a degree).

ANARCHit3cht January 19th, 2015 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8585894)
I am sorry to hear about your friend. I am sure that was not easy.

And yes, it's definitely easy (relative to having a terminal illness) to work towards getting fit. I think the disparity in my answer lies in getting people medicated now. I know that's a difficult one! But regardless I am unsure if there are many people who have such weight problems because of mental illness. From all of my experiences it's been the opposite in that people have weight issues... but it's because they eat too little.

I'm glad we can discuss this and help form a better opinion though. It does seem like it (at least from the gaps in our knowledge) that obesity from mental health is far more treatable over all - although I do not doubt there are some very special cases where it's next to impossible for the patient. I think it's one of those grey areas (to a degree).

While the topic is about obesity, I think the idea can be extended to all types of bad physical health due to poor mental health. For example,a girl who suffers from bulimia because she believes she is overweight(and might even be to a certain extent!) so she just throws up everything she ate that day when she gets home. It's a mental issue that is leading to physical health issues and I think that's the scope of the discussion currently--not obesity in general.

Circuit January 19th, 2015 11:32 AM

My opinion is that it really has to depend on the situation.

Obesity is not a black and white topic and, just like 99.99% of all other diseases and ailments, there are a number of causes that affect the size of a person and why they may become obese. Someone's metabolism plays a big role, and is mostly genetic, which is unavoidable. Diet, medication, mental health... All of these and others play a big role in determining a person's weight, and it is important that before we can clearly judge, we have all of these facts. The truth is, obtaining these facts with every person with a case like this would be impossible unless we were actively involved in the case itself. So while, despite what I have just said, I am going to answer these questions and points raised, I believe that these points I myself am about to raise are hardly plausible or applicable to this current situation, since I am unaware of every detail that could be available to affect my opinion and view of this topic.

I shall start with Saki's questions. Please bear in mind that all my statements are made with regard to the complaint form in the article linked in Saki's original post.

Do you think she (the patient) is overreacting?
Taking everything I can about the patient from this report, I feel that Dr. LD has made some unreasonable remarks and accusations in her complaint. She, in the very nature of her report and the accusations she has made, seems to be of a very self-interested nature. She had made no attempts to help herself during rehab, and simply used it as an easy way to go about daily life, without putting much or any effort into improving her situation herself. From this I have presumed - a very dangerous action for me to take, but alas, I have no further information, so I must - that she is a very dependent person. Perhaps insecure, in need of constant support from others, but given her circumstances, this has taken a rather selfish turn, and now believes that she needs support in order to live. That said, her attitude and actions suggest to me that she is arrogant in nature, believing that medicine and healthcare is universally applicable to all people, regardless of their condition, race, gender and so forth. In this case then, yes, I do believe that Dr. LD has, in this instance, overreacted to the situation at hand, and needs to revise her current situation and her own abilities to amend it before amounting a complaint towards those who have thus far supported and helped her through her situation.

Should obese individuals receive more care due to the increased health concern they face?
This question is more general, and does not require knowledge from the complaint source. My answer to this question is unfortunately, another question. What classification of obese persons are you refering to in this question? There are people who are obese not by choice, but as a genetic circumstance, as a result of another condition and there are those who are obese by choice. So let me answer with regard to the easiest first; those who are obese by choice, or rather, are obese simply because they refused to acknowledge it or make a change before the situation became dangerous. In this instance, these people should not receive more healthcare from services like the NHS, which are funded from taxpayers money. In this instance I feel that they should be referred to a private support officer who can help them take the right mentality towards their situation and work towards helping themselves. of course, this already happens. What I would do differently than currently happens is not give help to those who show unwillingness or incapability to help themselves. This sounds cold-hearted, but think about it. These people use up time of practitioners, resources and funds that could be spent on patients unable to help their current circumstance. Patients waiting for transplants could be admitted sooner, and those urgently requiring wound treatments could be rushed to a free operating theatre, not taken up by an obese person too arrogant to help themselves. The second of these categories I have listed that I will answer the question for is those who are obese as a result of another condition. These people should be given care based on the problems they face. When focusing on dealing with the obesity, the problem directly affecting the patient's weight should be focused on first, to get weight level down to a healthy level, or at least to a point where weight is no longer a danger to the patient's health. Once this is achieved, can the patient then be supported in any other ways necessary. There is no real easy solution to support those who are obese genetically, other than to offer weight loss programs and constant support from an officer, not doctors and nurses who's time is better spent with more urgent patients. I'm not an expert in genetics, so I can't answer the question for people with a genetic disadvantage towards weight very well.

Should clinically obese people shoulder the burden of possible increased health care that they require in terms of money when compared to another individual who receives the same care?
Again, the answer to this question totally depends on the situation of the individual being treated. For individuals who could not avoid their situation feasibly by other means then no, they should not have to bear the burden of forking out the dough for an expensive operation. However I see too many people expecting treatment for their situation when they've simply eaten a few too many cakes in their time and haven't bothered to try dieting and reforming to a better diet and fitness by themselves. For these people I say they should at the very least show that they can be committed to achieving and keeping their weight down before an operation - which already occurs, if I am not mistaken. However, instead of the operation being paid for by insurance, the NHS or what have you, the price could perhaps instead be cut by a third, or by half. This is one compromise that could be reached.

Do you think there is a stigma against overweight and/or obese people in the medical industry?
This question is inferring that doctors and the medical industry as a whole are prejudiced against overweight and obese people. This question shouldn't even be asked, in my opinion. Of course there is no such prejudice; doctors, nurses and the healthcare industry aim to help every person in need of medical aid, and will go above and beyond to achieve that aim. What they do NOT appreciate, are selfish, arrogant, narrow-minded individuals who expect the world and his wife to cater to their every need every minute of the day. Recently, people have become to see the healthcare industry as a source for all their problems and issues, no matter how slight, and that is not what it is there for. The healthcare industry is there to help people in desperate need of medical attention who cannot otherwise help themselves for lack of resources or knowledge. Too many people waste valuable time and resources on petty incidents and issues that the healthcare industry doesn't really need holding it down from doing what it was invented to do.

Medicine is not a black and white subject, much like 'most everything in life. We cannot pick and choose the details we want when forming an argument about a topic as large as this one. All the sides, all the issues, all the facts need to be covered before one can make any sort of valuable decision and opinion of the situation. You cannot presume that someone else can make the same logical choices you can, because you are not them. What is logical to one person can seem completely abstract to another. The paths we choose and the paths we take are ours, and the path one person may need to take may be hard for them to find, but clear to you. Please be careful of your generalisations and choices of words, as they play a big part in an argument, and if you choose wrongly you can put across an entirely different view from the one you yourself believe. Obesity is not in any way "easy" to overcome at all, by the very nature of the diagnosis itself. Although the steps to reduce and counteract it seem clear, it's a very hard path to walk, and harder still by societies current view on the Obese. That is all.

Saki January 19th, 2015 4:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaAiden (Post 8586362)
My opinion is that it really has to depend on the situation.

Obesity is not a black and white topic and, just like 99.99% of all other diseases and ailments, there are a number of causes that affect the size of a person and why they may become obese. Someone's metabolism plays a big role, and is mostly genetic, which is unavoidable. Diet, medication, mental health... All of these and others play a big role in determining a person's weight, and it is important that before we can clearly judge, we have all of these facts. The truth is, obtaining these facts with every person with a case like this would be impossible unless we were actively involved in the case itself. So while, despite what I have just said, I am going to answer these questions and points raised, I believe that these points I myself am about to raise are hardly plausible or applicable to this current situation, since I am unaware of every detail that could be available to affect my opinion and view of this topic.

I shall start with Saki's questions. Please bear in mind that all my statements are made with regard to the complaint form in the article linked in Saki's original post.

Do you think she (the patient) is overreacting?
Taking everything I can about the patient from this report, I feel that Dr. LD has made some unreasonable remarks and accusations in her complaint. She, in the very nature of her report and the accusations she has made, seems to be of a very self-interested nature. She had made no attempts to help herself during rehab, and simply used it as an easy way to go about daily life, without putting much or any effort into improving her situation herself. From this I have presumed - a very dangerous action for me to take, but alas, I have no further information, so I must - that she is a very dependent person. Perhaps insecure, in need of constant support from others, but given her circumstances, this has taken a rather selfish turn, and now believes that she needs support in order to live. That said, her attitude and actions suggest to me that she is arrogant in nature, believing that medicine and healthcare is universally applicable to all people, regardless of their condition, race, gender and so forth. In this case then, yes, I do believe that Dr. LD has, in this instance, overreacted to the situation at hand, and needs to revise her current situation and her own abilities to amend it before amounting a complaint towards those who have thus far supported and helped her through her situation.

Should obese individuals receive more care due to the increased health concern they face?
This question is more general, and does not require knowledge from the complaint source. My answer to this question is unfortunately, another question. What classification of obese persons are you refering to in this question? There are people who are obese not by choice, but as a genetic circumstance, as a result of another condition and there are those who are obese by choice. So let me answer with regard to the easiest first; those who are obese by choice, or rather, are obese simply because they refused to acknowledge it or make a change before the situation became dangerous. In this instance, these people should not receive more healthcare from services like the NHS, which are funded from taxpayers money. In this instance I feel that they should be referred to a private support officer who can help them take the right mentality towards their situation and work towards helping themselves. of course, this already happens. What I would do differently than currently happens is not give help to those who show unwillingness or incapability to help themselves. This sounds cold-hearted, but think about it. These people use up time of practitioners, resources and funds that could be spent on patients unable to help their current circumstance. Patients waiting for transplants could be admitted sooner, and those urgently requiring wound treatments could be rushed to a free operating theatre, not taken up by an obese person too arrogant to help themselves. The second of these categories I have listed that I will answer the question for is those who are obese as a result of another condition. These people should be given care based on the problems they face. When focusing on dealing with the obesity, the problem directly affecting the patient's weight should be focused on first, to get weight level down to a healthy level, or at least to a point where weight is no longer a danger to the patient's health. Once this is achieved, can the patient then be supported in any other ways necessary. There is no real easy solution to support those who are obese genetically, other than to offer weight loss programs and constant support from an officer, not doctors and nurses who's time is better spent with more urgent patients. I'm not an expert in genetics, so I can't answer the question for people with a genetic disadvantage towards weight very well.

Should clinically obese people shoulder the burden of possible increased health care that they require in terms of money when compared to another individual who receives the same care?
Again, the answer to this question totally depends on the situation of the individual being treated. For individuals who could not avoid their situation feasibly by other means then no, they should not have to bear the burden of forking out the dough for an expensive operation. However I see too many people expecting treatment for their situation when they've simply eaten a few too many cakes in their time and haven't bothered to try dieting and reforming to a better diet and fitness by themselves. For these people I say they should at the very least show that they can be committed to achieving and keeping their weight down before an operation - which already occurs, if I am not mistaken. However, instead of the operation being paid for by insurance, the NHS or what have you, the price could perhaps instead be cut by a third, or by half. This is one compromise that could be reached.

Do you think there is a stigma against overweight and/or obese people in the medical industry?
This question is inferring that doctors and the medical industry as a whole are prejudiced against overweight and obese people. This question shouldn't even be asked, in my opinion. Of course there is no such prejudice; doctors, nurses and the healthcare industry aim to help every person in need of medical aid, and will go above and beyond to achieve that aim. What they do NOT appreciate, are selfish, arrogant, narrow-minded individuals who expect the world and his wife to cater to their every need every minute of the day. Recently, people have become to see the healthcare industry as a source for all their problems and issues, no matter how slight, and that is not what it is there for. The healthcare industry is there to help people in desperate need of medical attention who cannot otherwise help themselves for lack of resources or knowledge. Too many people waste valuable time and resources on petty incidents and issues that the healthcare industry doesn't really need holding it down from doing what it was invented to do.

Medicine is not a black and white subject, much like 'most everything in life. We cannot pick and choose the details we want when forming an argument about a topic as large as this one. All the sides, all the issues, all the facts need to be covered before one can make any sort of valuable decision and opinion of the situation. You cannot presume that someone else can make the same logical choices you can, because you are not them. What is logical to one person can seem completely abstract to another. The paths we choose and the paths we take are ours, and the path one person may need to take may be hard for them to find, but clear to you. Please be careful of your generalisations and choices of words, as they play a big part in an argument, and if you choose wrongly you can put across an entirely different view from the one you yourself believe. Obesity is not in any way "easy" to overcome at all, by the very nature of the diagnosis itself. Although the steps to reduce and counteract it seem clear, it's a very hard path to walk, and harder still by societies current view on the Obese. That is all.

The questions are meant to be general and don't infer anything. I really do not have a "side" or an argument in regards to the article... however I can tell you that as someone who has been around current doctors, current nurses, and future doctors and future nurses in a social settings they have often had noticeable stigma against over weight individuals. Will this have an impact in their professional lives? No idea, but I did want to hear other's thoughts on it~

Thanks for your reply, I enjoyed learning your opinions and applying them to my own thoughts. I truly believe almost nothing is black and white, but I do like to hear people out when they have extreme perspectives (not implying that you do, just discussing my questions since you went ahead and discussed them).

ANARCHit3cht January 19th, 2015 4:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8586588)
The questions are meant to be general and don't infer anything. I really do not have a "side" or an argument in regards to the article... however I can tell you that as someone who has been around current doctors, current nurses, and future doctors and future nurses in a social settings they have often had noticeable stigma against over weight individuals. Will this have an impact in their professional lives? No idea, but I did want to hear other's thoughts on it~

Thanks for your reply, I enjoyed learning your opinions and applying them to my own thoughts. I truly believe almost nothing is black and white, but I do like to hear people out when they have extreme perspectives (not implying that you do, just discussing my questions since you went ahead and discussed them).

While I can't say I've noticed that stigma, I'm sure it exists to an extent. Take say, a mechanic. If he spent hours fixing your car only to you have go and break it the next day he isn't going to be too happy about having to fix it again. If you aren't going to put in the effort to maintain what they have to fix, why should they invest their time and effort into fixing it for you when there is someone who arguably needs it more?

Saki January 19th, 2015 4:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANARCHit3cht (Post 8586599)
While I can't say I've noticed that stigma, I'm sure it exists to an extent. Take say, a mechanic. If he spent hours fixing your car only to you have go and break it the next day he isn't going to be too happy about having to fix it again. If you aren't going to put in the effort to maintain what they have to fix, why should they invest their time and effort into fixing it for you when there is someone who arguably needs it more?

Yes. I can see this sort of idea coming into medical staff's mind. "This person doesn't respect their body" etc. I imagine that may translate into a couple eye rolls and such, but it's my best hope it doesn't affect their medical decisions! I try my best to trust that medical staff will always be professional and work towards caring to their patients as best as they can - but it wouldn't be a huge surprise if they groaned a bit about having to care for people who clearly don't do certain things to care for their body (obesity and other "ailments").

I know my sister is a nurse and she cares for seniors and other people that require constant care, this includes some severely obese individuals. My sister has a good work ethic from what I know and she treats them medically just as she would others, but I have witnessed her eye roll about having to move them and how much they require in terms of extra attention. They're less likely to get their own things, and more likely to ask for help. It's not a surprised though. This is also a very small case, and really not data but a tidbit of experience. Interesting to think about regardless~

Circuit January 20th, 2015 7:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8586588)
The questions are meant to be general and don't infer anything. I really do not have a "side" or an argument in regards to the article... however I can tell you that as someone who has been around current doctors, current nurses, and future doctors and future nurses in a social settings they have often had noticeable stigma against over weight individuals. Will this have an impact in their professional lives? No idea, but I did want to hear other's thoughts on it~

My apologies on perhaps reading too far into the questions, I did get a little carried away hehe ^^"

In response to this, I can't say that I've had particular social interaction with many nurses and doctors, however in a professional sense I have witnessed an extreme amount of patience and understanding, a level to which I could never achieve that earns my utmost respect. I think in a social scene a person is entitled to their own opinion, which goes on to the debate about freedom of speech which I wont discuss here, as that's not the topic. In that social scene I image there will be people who have a particular dislike towards some people, based on their experiences with those people. I do not speak out against this, nor do I wish it to be otherwise, as I believe everyone is entitled to believe and think what they would like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8586588)
Thanks for your reply, I enjoyed learning your opinions and applying them to my own thoughts. I truly believe almost nothing is black and white, but I do like to hear people out when they have extreme perspectives (not implying that you do, just discussing my questions since you went ahead and discussed them).

Well, it's a debate after all, and it can't be a debate if I don't give my own opinion in detail; it helps further the conversation :)

Alas, I fear there is no topic in this world at all that can be permanently black and white. When people have extreme views, I do also like to hear what they have to say, as they have obviously had experiences which have led them to believe their extreme view, and this interests me greatly. For example, when people talk about politics within the UK (which is a big mess right now, if you ask me), I enjoy listening to why people support various parties, and I enjoy even more posing questions to those who follow an extremely right/left-wing party without understanding their whole motives and the situation as a whole. It's a great sight when the stumble and fall searching for an answer they can't give XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANARCHit3cht (Post 8586599)
While I can't say I've noticed that stigma, I'm sure it exists to an extent. Take say, a mechanic. If he spent hours fixing your car only to you have go and break it the next day he isn't going to be too happy about having to fix it again. If you aren't going to put in the effort to maintain what they have to fix, why should they invest their time and effort into fixing it for you when there is someone who arguably needs it more?

I'm sure many doctors and nurses think this, and as far as modern medicinal advice goes they do try and get obese patients to prove their devotion to improving their situation through reaching a certain amount of weight loss on their own. After that, if the target is reached the patient can undergo lipo-suction or the like. If not, the patient is advised that they need to be prepared to work to avoid the situation in future. Of course, not everyone does but most do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saki (Post 8586609)
Yes. I can see this sort of idea coming into medical staff's mind. "This person doesn't respect their body" etc. I imagine that may translate into a couple eye rolls and such, but it's my best hope it doesn't affect their medical decisions! I try my best to trust that medical staff will always be professional and work towards caring to their patients as best as they can - but it wouldn't be a huge surprise if they groaned a bit about having to care for people who clearly don't do certain things to care for their body (obesity and other "ailments").

I know my sister is a nurse and she cares for seniors and other people that require constant care, this includes some severely obese individuals. My sister has a good work ethic from what I know and she treats them medically just as she would others, but I have witnessed her eye roll about having to move them and how much they require in terms of extra attention. They're less likely to get their own things, and more likely to ask for help. It's not a surprised though. This is also a very small case, and really not data but a tidbit of experience. Interesting to think about regardless~

Yes, I can see this could be a thought a lot of medical staff may have, but it's in their training to suppress it and help the patient equally. Outside of their workplace, they are entitled to feel how they want about various patients.

CoffeeDrink January 20th, 2015 8:25 PM

Do you think she (the patient) is overreacting?

Absolutely. Do all obese people act like they're from the US? If you don't want to be called fat, maybe a little jog might help in that regard.

Should obese individuals receive more care due to the increased health concern they face?

Nope. Same care as everyone else. Get out and walk you hippocrit. No one asked to have your carcass wheeled into their ER. I also think that 165 days in a private room is waaaaaay too long. It's been a long time since I broke my rule on using extra letters to prove my point, but I believe a typical healthy adult should not have to spend nearly 5 months at a hospital. I mean come on! She probably used a motor chair to get around anyways, so why do they need to put her through physical therapy to try and get her walking.

And can you imagine? I would, in this instance, quit my job on the spot if someone told me I had to sponge down the whale they just harpooned in room 603. I feel sorry for the sods that had to go through that, and I think quite a few of them came back with PTSD from sponge bathing that monster. Hell, why aren't they going after the hospital? The only way you'll get that terrible smell and horrible image out of your mind is to feed your brain with a heaping helping of element eighty-two.

Should clinically obese people shoulder the burden of possible increased health care that they require in terms of money when compared to another individual who receives the same care?

I would have to say yes. If she was living in the United States, she'd be eaten alive. People have become so afraid of their rights down here that they willingly sign them away to arbitration for most of the time. You're making the choice, in my eyes, to weigh that much. You don't get to way 400 pounds by eating lettuce and soda crackers. You get there by eating bacon! *pulls cheek* You little piggy, you!


If you weigh 400 pounds and need hip surgery, I think I discovered the problem *points to diagram of a pig* this was found in your 'jeans'.


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