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What went wrong with FRLG?
As some of you may already know, I've never held Generation 3 in that high of regard to begin with. I've always had many issues with the Hoenn games--They killed compatibility with the previous two Gens, featured a bland and poorly-designed region that had zero connections to either of the previous two, had a mostly boring cast of characters and a storyline that made zero sense if you knew what the Water Cycle was, began the tradition of using new Pokémon to "replace" instead of compliment the old ones, and started the trend of GF increasingly catering to competitive battling instead of casual play. Also, the graphics fell considerably below what the GBA was capable of, the music sounded like nails on a chalkboard (sorry, trumpet fans), the overhauled stat system was useless outside of competitive and only made in-game play more tedious, and way too many good features from the previous Gen were removed (like Day/Night).
My stance on the Hoenn games has softened a little bit over time, though. I ended up liking many Pokémon introduced in these games (the starters, Gardevoir, Breloom, and Milotic, for example), and the modern remakes--OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire--are great-looking games that fix many of the problems the originals had. On the other hand, it's the other half of Generation 3 that's increasingly starting to frustrate me. I love Generation 1. How could I not? Yellow was my very first game way back in 1999, and I came of age right at the height of Pokémania. I had the games, the anime (on these things called "VHS tapes"), the toys, everything. There's just so much nostalgia associated with these games, and they still hold up pretty well for me. The region is memorable, the characters are memorable, the storyline is simple, yet effective, and there's a lot of great Pokémon to choose from. Granted, the Even Better Sequels eventually superseded Gen 1 as my favorite Gen, but old-school Red, Blue, and Yellow still rank pretty high in my book. So, why don't I like FireRed and LeafGreen, then? Why do the games fill me with more rage than joy? I mean, my favorite Generation's remakes don't invoke the same feelings; in fact, I quite like them and even consider them a gold standard for what good remakes should look like. They look good, they play well, and they do a fantastic job of integrating all three Gen 2 games together and adding enough new content to set them apart from the originals. And, then, I think about it and realize... None of those things are true for FireRed and LeafGreen. They aren't "good remakes" by any stretch of the word. In fact, they're pretty terrible. Why did FRLG fail, while HGSS (and later, ORAS) prevail? What do the later remakes have that the first ones don't? What went wrong with FRLG? 1. They needlessly removed features that were standard in Gold/Silver/Crystal and Ruby/Sapphire, all for the sake of being "faithful." It was bad enough that RS removed Day/Night, but even they still had an internal clock of some sort. FRLG, on the other hand, didn't even bother to give you that much. Yeah, good luck evolving Eevee (in the *only* Gen 3 games it's available in) into Espeon and Umbreon... Oh, wait. No "new" Pokémon in the Kanto Dex, remember? Yeah, screw all of those "new" Pokémon you possibly caught and used in Kanto just a Generation ago, because these are remakes, dammit! And, why do you want to see the same berry trees you probably also saw in Kanto just a Generation ago? Why don't you have amnesia of the previous games? Be lucky that we're still letting you play as a girl. |
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5. They were slapped together in a rush, and it shows. Take a look at the staggering list of unused maps and sprites in FRLG's data. A lot was left out of these games, and it's not hard to see why. Unlike, HGSS and ORAS, FRLG were released less than a decade and only one handheld after their original counterparts, which in retrospect, was akin to remaking Diamond and Pearl (instead of Ruby and Sapphire) for the 3DS in 2014. And, why were they rushed out so early? Because, GF couldn't be bothered to find another, more creative way to complete the National Dex in Ruby and Sapphire (such as a second postgame region). Unlike HGSS and ORAS, FRLG weren't carefully developed and released as a favor to fan nostalgia (as there was none in 2004); they were slapped together for purely utilitarian purposes, almost as an expansion pack to RSE rather than standalone games. [/INDENT]What do you think? Did any of these things bother you as much as they bothered me? Would I have seen the games differently if I had been a newcomer instead of a Gen 1-2 veteran?[/QUOTE] A favor for nostalgia is good.....keep in mind, some people actually WANT to play the original games but with better graphics, and few updated features. if you don't think thats good in any way....so be it....but that doesn't mean the remake "FAILED" because it did what every remake should. |
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Remember the huge outcry over ORAS not having trainer customization? That's exactly how people who wanted to experience Gen 1 with things like Day/Night (or, just a clock, period), breeding, and newer Pokémon felt about FRLG. |
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you want to play games based on the software capabilities of the console. thats not what remakes are about. sure its part of it, but not ALL of it. and if thats all you care about (which you seem to constantly focus on and bash FRLG) then yes. Quote:
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Regardless of what you believe "most" people think, most remakes objectively are the same story, the same gameplay. Changes are often done graphically or covering up a major plot hole, or something that was heavily criticized. Any changes to gameplay is often to be additions were refinements and "bonus". expansions are often done as well. sometimes remakes are also designed so they can open up to sequels, so they add in additional scenes especially the ending for the sake of making more. but it all depends on what the remake is for. MOST people know that remakes are designed to experience the original games with modern graphics, with some additions that do NOT overshadow the original experience. Quote:
Now that ORAS has features of XY, what will DP have? what will BW and B2W2 have? In pokemon red and blue there was no day/night feature. but you also have to consider, most of the pokemon weren't designed to take advantage of the day/night feature, and it would've been far easier to capture all pokemon. when gold/silver came out more pokemon took advantage of the day/night feature because of the roster. it also helped encountering more pokemon since the roster got far bigger this time. made pokemon more rare. so i completely understand why they didn't bother with it. it wasn't as beneficial as Gold/Silver |
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This is all I have ever played really, I have never played any of the RSE games, just FRLG for me. As soon as I get every one from these games I do plan on continuing on though. You hate Gen III so much, but what about Colosseum and Gale of Darkness? |
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BettyNewbie, I actually agree with all of your points. FR/LG are the worst pokemon games I have played. They feel like plastic after Gen 2's deep world, and the environments are plain boring after Hoenn's wild nature. They could have made the region better, instead of making it the most plain and least exciting part of the series. One point I'm especially appalled with is the music. Hoenn's tracks were unique and modern on the GBA system, but the soundfont used in FRLG was just... Boring. Bad. Dulled down the beautiful original tunes from the GB. |
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Yellow went even further by including new features (many inspired by the then popular anime), fixing more bugs, adding GBC colors, and adding much nicer sprites. Quote:
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Pokémon, on the other hand, is just as much gameplay as it is story. The biggest thing that separates one Gen from another is their graphics, mechanics, features, and most of all, Pokémon count. That's the main criteria people use to determine how "modern" a Pokémon game is. Quote:
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Weirdly enough fr/lg are probably my favorite remakes lol. I thought the overworld graphics were cute. Idk something about the style of the game was really endearing for me. I personally never found the features in gsc to be that great. I never cared for the day/night system and I wasn't a big berry user in gsc or rse. So I wasn't that sad they weren't included.
I really loved the addition of the Sevii islands. I found it to be so much fun exploring all the islands and I especially loved the added story to them after you defeated the Champion. For me that was such a pleasant addition that tied into the game nicely. I guess I really enjoyed the simplicity of the originals so I was happy that it was improved upon, but yet preserved at the same time. Quote:
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They should've been something more like the anime's Orange Islands, with their own League and backstory, as well as distinct tropical setting. And, if GF was unwilling to give us that, they could've, at least, let us visit Johto, instead (HGSS were still a good 5-6 years away, after all). Quote:
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FRLG definitely threw a ton of potential out of the window. I mean, I'm not a fan of textbox tutorials and all that stuff in general (in fact I really hate those with a passion), but seeing how Oak explains to you in your first battle, how battles work also pains me in a second aspect: the feature is never used again.
It's a feature that's in the game, a feature, that's actually used. But why is it only used once? Why doesn't Giovanni talk to you during one of your battles against him? Sure, they implemented that feature in future games, but why did it take so long? It's the same with those automated battles, especially in RSE. First you get your Pokeballs which allow you to catch Pokemon and then some time later they show you a catching tutorial anyway. I mean, at least Wally catching his Pokemon was somewhat plot relevant, so it's not that big of a deal, but why never use these scripted battles outside of this tutorial? It's stuff like that, that just pains me, because it could have improved the playing experience a little bit more. And like I said, it's features that are already in the gen 3 games. Also evolution lock. Why showing us in the other games, that some Pokemon evolve by friendship, when in FRLG these don't work pre National Dex? Explaining that it's not because the friendship isn't high enough, but because it just didn't work? That's terrible design. Fortunately they fixed that in the other remakes. Including the Sevii Islands...tbh. long before the remakes where released (heck, long before RS were released) I already heared some rumors about some islands named after numbers that were supposed to be in the gen 1 games, but where scrapped because of lack of memory. I wouldn't be surprised if those rumors where true and GF decided to make FRLG what RBGY where supposed to be. Unfortunately that's not a step forward and the islands themself were really boring, too. They weren't explorative, instead they just let you run some erands to get some jewelry and passwords. |
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Speaking of wasted things, there's also the Fame Checker. What's the point of this thing? It makes you go through this scavenger hunt all over the game for absolutely no reward. Maybe, they thought they were doing "character development" with it, but that could've just as easily been achieved by, I don't know, showing the Gym Leaders and E4 Members outside of their rooms and doing things and interacting with other characters. Quote:
(And, let me remind you that Crobat, along with about 60 other Gen 2 Pokémon, was originally planned for Red and Green. Crobat's cry even exists in Red and Blue's data! Wanna do Gen 1 right? Give us these 60 scrapped Pokémon!) Quote:
Now, what I *do* know is that the Sevii Islands were originally going to be a lot larger than they actually ended up being. Why were these extra islands scrapped? Did they run out of time, or something? They could've done so much more with that place. |
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1. The battle tutorial at the beginning of the game on how to battle? Is what you're referring to the Battle with Blue? Because if it is, the point would be completely nullified by the fact that you were forced to battle your rival in the Original games to begin with. To take it out would be like saying Greedo shot first, and it would completely change the entire character of Blue simply because of- - SMELL YOU LATER GRAMPS! *struts out* . . . as I was saying, the 'tutorial' is a key part of the story in Red, Blue, Green, and Yellow and it would not make as much sense to have the Rival continually harass you if it wasn't shown right out the gate "I know! I'll ask my sister for a Town Map. I'll tell her not to give you one, Red!" So, if this is the tutorial you are speaking of, it needs to remain in the games to establish Blue's overall douche-like character. 2. Giovanni. I feel that your perception of Giovanni is completely off. Here is the example: In Pokémon Blue, Green, and Red Versions Giovanni utilizes an Onix at lv. 25 (Rock Throw, Bind, Screech, Rage), a Rhyhorn at lv. 24 (Horn Attack. That's it.) and a Kangaskhan at lv. 29 (Comet Punch, Rage, Bite) when you first encounter him. However in Pokemon Fire Red and Leaf Green Versions Giovanni utilizes the following: An Onix at lv. 25 (Rock Throw, Bind, Harden, Rage), a Rhyhorn at lv. 24 (Stomp, Scary Face, Fury Attack, Tail Whip), and Kangaskhan at lv. 29 (Fakeout, Bite, Mega Punch, Tail Whip). This is a clear case of an upgrade. The move sets were fleshed out and his Pokémon all know four moves and aren't limited to one or two. While it might be confusing to you as to why he still utilizes a Rhyhorn coming off of Pokémon Yellow, I must remind you that Pokémon Versions Fire Red and leaf Green are based off of Pokémon Red Version and Pokémon Green Version Respectively, and more closely mirror those games and not Pokémon Yellow Version. 3. The Missing No. glitch was never meant to be in the game in the first place, so removing the issue was the only logical solution. While it was fun, it was also very corruptive and could harm the game data in numerous ways. There is also something to be said about trying to recreate an 4-Megait glitch with a 128-Megabit cartridge. While it might be a little weird, I'm glad they 'fixed' it (in actuality they didn't have to fix it because they were working off a completely different system). And to be honest, there could never be a true remake without culling the new types to begin with (Poison is Super Effective against Bugs don't you know?). Some of these gripes I find to be minor, but the idea that they dumbed down some trainers is a bit much. Take a gander at Blue himself! His Rhydon didn't know a single Rock or Ground type move until the games were remade. |
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(And, BTW, the Pokémon in Yellow did have good movesets, at least for the time. Giovanni's Rhydon had Rock Slide/Earthquake, while both of his Nidos had Earthquake/Thunder. He was still pretty easy, though.) Quote:
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Simply because the fact that his entire team is weak to Water and Ice Type moves makes most of the argument of making him easier or more difficult mostly moot; but the same could be said with nearly every gym leader in every game we've seen so far. So I suppose it really comes down to opinion on whether or not things became more or less difficult with gained knowledge of previous games. Don't forget that there were also moves introduced that didn't exist in the Originals and the fact that Typing changed with the additions of two new types may also have a bearing on how well you perform against his Pokémon. Other than that, I don't know what much else I could tell you. |
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FRLG was a real, standard remake. what barely made it a Gen 3 (to me) was that they added a few Gen 3 pokemon. and this was the FIRST remake...no one should complain for staying true to the original. I will however agree it could've used so much more without hurting the original. They could've added a new route, some more hidden minigames / side quests. Etc. etc. but al lin the terms of feeling an additional bonus, not the striving force of the game. Quote:
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His Nidos also actually have worse movesets in FRLG than in Yellow, knowing Poison Sting (!) instead of Thunder. The movesets may be better than Red/Blue, but they're on par with Yellow, at best, which is just sad. Quote:
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Also let's be honest: children don't care for textbox tutorials, they just press buttons, until everything works as it should. {XD} Quote:
I mean it's already established, that GF wanted for the first games to contain more stuff than they ended up with and it seems kind of logical to me that they would want to make the remakes what the originals should have been. |
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As for the remakes: the faithfulness is one of its greatest strenghts. I've started with Red/Blue and FR/LG are still the versions I go to the most to play that storyline and region. |
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I think it's important to view Yellow as having *specifically Pikachu* following you, not *your starter following you*. Remember, Pikachu counts as a character throughout Yellow, reacting to things in the overworld and some people comment on it. TLDR; I don't think Yellow introduced enough content to warrant its features being in FRLG. Quote:
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And then they let us fester for 7 years on the fact that our rival in GSC was Giovanni's son. All in all, I've always thought there was more to be done for the whole Kanto/Johto storyline that they've decidedly left unsaid, but I'm very much nostalgic about the whole thing. Quote:
Basically, because of the lack of connectivity between 2nd and 3rd gen (something they thankfully never let happen again), FRLG served only to reintroduce the Kanto (and a verrrrry select few Johto) Pokémon to help players fill up their Pokédexes. Colosseum, Gale of Darkness and Emerald later filled in the remaining gaps. The remakes of GSC and RSE have both significantly added to the features available within their generations; in fact, I think it's pretty fair to say the HGSS and ORAS are the best games of their generations. The same can't be said for FRLG, definitely not, because of... well, all that they're lacking. I think it's safe to say that Game Freak have sinced learned from their mistake, and have managed to retain nostalgia in their remakes without ruining things by keeping them too close to the originals. Unfortunately in most cases of things being remade, staying "faithful" to the originals usually means sticking with something that is old, dated, and basically.. in need of renewal. |
Gonna be one of the oddballs apparently and say that I think FRLG were great as far as remakes go. It should probably be acknowledged too that these were the very first true remakes. They kept it classic with all of the new features that Gen III added (updated PC system, VS Seeker, breeding, etc.).
It's also really not fair at all to say that these games suck because they're incompatible with Gen I and II because that's a whole issue with the tech from them and not the games themselves, too. FRLG were good, I'll just say that. The graphics were simple because it was a remake of the most simple games, yet they still fit in with the whole style of Hoenn, imo. My only complaint was that you couldn't evolve Golbat into Crobat or Onix into Steelix until you got the National Dex. I don't get how the games were dumbed down, either. As far as I remember, they kept the exact same dialogue as the original games. Renaming the Gambler trainer class to Gamer was just the result of censorship issues that popped up in the time span between Gen I and Gen III. Same with Jynx's color scheme. Yellow as a third installment has always stood apart from the other third installments, also. It focused specifically on the anime, something no other game has done. I don't know why they would even add anything Yellow-specific to the remakes, honestly. |
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Even if it was only Pikachu, it was still the very first following Pokémon ever. And, I enjoyed Pikachu's Beach, even if you needed to jump through some hoops to be able to play it. I also liked seeing Jessie and James, and I think they would've been a fantastic way to introduce double battles into FRLG. And, did I mention that the Gym Leaders were all harder, and that Yellow gave most of them better movesets? Or, that Yellow's sprites are way better than Red and Blue's? Or, that Yellow fixed many of Red and Blue's bugs? Or, that the starter Pikachu was the very first implementation of a happiness system in the games? Or, that Red's canon team is based on Yellow? Yellow's a part of Gen 1, whether you like it or not. Quote:
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And, screw Johto music, I would've rather seen Johto, itself. Same goes for Silver. And, those Rocket Admins didn't even have different sprites from the Grunts (like in GSC), let alone actual names (like in HGSS). Laaaazy! :rolleyes2: Amusingly, the Sevii Islands completely vanished after FRLG. They were never seen or even heard from in any other game. (Not even HGSS bothered to acknowledge them, let alone include them.) Something tells me that even GF is ashamed of those islands... Quote:
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Being able to go through the game with Dark and Steel types wouldn't make sense, but just the fact that the existence of Steel and Dark Type moves calls the 'difficulty' issue to be called into question. Nearly every normal type was capable of learning Bite, Charmander could learn Metal claw, and Magnamite is now Steel/Electric. I'll say again that just the existence of two new types throws the Original Type effective scale out the window entirely. And the excuse to offer you on why they didn't include the 60+ Pokémon that you said were 'behind the game' is simply the fact that they weren't in the final product to begin with. I feel like we'll all be at odds with how the remakes were handled, so I agree to disagree. |
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Also, some of the gyms could be EASIER depending on your approach. Erika's two strongest Pokémon were devolved compared to RGB. Lt. Surge has a stronger Raichu but it's his only Pokémon and a Geodude still kills him. Koga has three Venonat, which is a very easy Pokémon to kill. Sabrina has an Abra without any offensive moves. Platinum was a far more legitimately difficult game than Yellow, with gym leaders actually using smart strategies. And B2W2's Challenge Mode is even better in that regard. |
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