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LusoTrainer February 6th, 2015 2:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8607804)
I'm going to say it right here--I hate Yellow bashing.

Good to know, but it's irrelevant for the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8607804)
Most of it comes from the exact same argument, too, "the anime sucks," or "it's not canon."

Funny, but I never made such statements. Yellow was an adaptation of the anime, using the Red/Blue versions as a basis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8607804)
Even if it was only Pikachu, it was still the very first following Pokémon ever.

Because that's what happened in the anime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8607804)
And, did I mention that the Gym Leaders were all harder, and that Yellow gave most of them better movesets? Or, that Yellow's sprites are way better than Red and Blue's? Or, that Yellow fixed many of Red and Blue's bugs? Or, that the starter Pikachu was the very first implementation of a happiness system in the games?

So? It was released after the international Red/Blue, so it better have some bugfixes. Just like the international verions had improvements over the japanese ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8607804)
Or, that Red's canon team is based on Yellow?

That's up to debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8607804)
Yellow's a part of Gen 1, whether you like it or not.

It's more of a spin-off than anything else in the main series.

BettyNewbie February 6th, 2015 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8609200)
Funny, but I never made such statements. Yellow was an adaptation of the anime, using the Red/Blue versions as a basis.

No, it isn't. You still play as Red, your rival is still Blue, you still defeat Giovanni for good, and you still fight the Elite Four and Blue at the end. Aside from a few extra bits, it's still the games' story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8609200)
That's up to debate.

Why else would you think Red has a L81 unevolved Pikachu as his ace, or all three starters on his team without trading?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8609200)
It's more of a spin-off than anything else in the main series.

It's a handheld Pokémon game that was made by Game Freak, so nope, not a spin-off. It's part of the Main Series, whether you like it or not.

LusoTrainer February 7th, 2015 6:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8609439)
No, it isn't.

Yes, it is. You don't get to choose a starter, you're stuck with Pikachu as your starter throughout the whole thing (just like in the anime), the sprites and parts of the story were changed to be more faithful to the anime, etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8609439)
Why else would you think Red has a L81 unevolved Pikachu as his ace,

Because he can?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8609439)
or all three starters on his team without trading?

To not neglect any of the starter choices made by the players?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8609439)
It's a handheld Pokémon game that was made by Game Freak, so nope, not a spin-off.

How does being an handheld game made by Game Freak makes it not a spin-off? A spin-off is something derived from an existing product or franchise. And Yellow fits that description.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8609841)
Yes, it is. You don't get to choose a starter, you're stuck with Pikachu as your starter throughout the whole thing (just like in the anime), the sprites and parts of the story were changed to be more faithful to the anime, etc...

The sprites were changed to look BETTER. Do you really think Golbat was meant to look like this?

And, Red and Blue's sprites were changed to look more like their official art, which is what Ash and Gary's original designs happened to be based on. They use those exact same sprites in GSC.

And, what from the story was changed to be more like the anime? You mean, Jessie and James? ...They weren't exactly a whole lot like their anime counterparts, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8609841)
Because he can?

If that's all you can say, then you've clearly lost that argument, LOL. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8609841)
To not neglect any of the starter choices made by the players?

But, it's impossible to own all three starters ("own" meaning "all having the same OT/Trainer ID") in RB, so it wouldn't make any sense, storywise. With Yellow, on the other hand, it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8609841)
How does being an handheld game made by Game Freak makes it not a spin-off? A spin-off is something derived from an existing product or franchise. And Yellow fits that description.

The biggest thing that distinguishes canon from non-canon in Pokémon is Game Freak's involvement. (Hence the reason why Colosseum/XD aren't canon; Game Freak wasn't involved with either.)

Here's how Bulbapedia defines game canon:

Quote:

The canon of the core series considers the following:
  • Events occurring in the core series games are the ultimate canon.
  • Player choices such as the hero's gender and starter Pokémon are generally not standardized within the canon, with the exception of Red in the Generation I games and their remakes.
  • In the case of conflicts between versions of a game, the later one such as a third version or remake, supersedes. As such, Pokémon Crystal Version canonically supersedes Pokémon Gold and Silver Versions, while Pokémon Platinum Version is canon instead of its paired counterparts Pokémon Diamond and Pearl Versions. If equally new versions, such as paired versions, conflict, the canonical one is generally not standardized.
  • Content from games related to the core series is canon unless it conflicts with events in the core series games, while content from unrelated spin-offs is generally non-canon.
  • Canonical material via other forms of media, like animated trailers, manuals or merchandise, may exist depending on each case.

Note the emphasis on "core series." How is a "core series" game defined?


Quote:

The core series[1][2] of the Pokémon games or core games[3], commonly referred to as the main series by fans, is the game series that is always released on a Nintendo handheld system and developed by Game Freak, which follow the now-standard model of a player's journey through a specific region to catch and raise Pokémon, battle Trainers, earn Badges from Gym Leaders, and defeat the Pokémon League to enter the Hall of Fame there.

How does that NOT describe Yellow? Sure enough, it's listed on the page as a CORE SERIES game, right there with Red and Blue.


Just give it up. I get it, you hate Yellow. (You wouldn't call it a "cheap spin-off" and get so worked up over its canonicity if you didn't, otherwise.) It's still a canon main series game, though, like it or not.

LusoTrainer February 7th, 2015 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
The sprites were changed to look BETTER.

The sprites were changed to look like the anime, that's not up to debate. As an example:

This a Team Rocket grunt:

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/a/a1/Spr_RG_Rocket.png

This is a better looking version of it:

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1b/Spr_GS_Rocket_Grunt_M.png

This is Yellow's version (and proof that the concept of the game was to be an adaptation of the anime):

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/8/8f/Spr_Y_Jessie_James.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
You mean, Jessie and James? ...They weren't exactly a whole lot like their anime counterparts, you know.

Jessie and James were created for the anime. In the main games, they don't exist at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
If that's all you can say, then you've clearly lost that argument, LOL. :P

The argument that it's up to debate? No, since you never refuted it in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
But, it's impossible to own all three starters

That's a game mechanism. Red (as presented in G/S) is meant to represent the playerbase, universally (even those who played Yellow). Hence why all the starters are on his team. That doesn't mean his team uses Yellow as a basis. Otherwise why not call him Yellow instead of Red?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
The biggest thing that distinguishes canon from non-canon in Pokémon is Game Freak's involvement.

Source? Game Freak never made a statement on what's considered canon or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
Here's how Bulbapedia defines game canon:

Bulbapedia is a fan made wiki. Not to mention that it provides no source on that specific matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
How does that NOT describe Yellow? Sure enough, it's listed on the page as a CORE SERIES game, right there with Red and Blue.

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
Just give it up.

On what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610139)
I get it, you hate Yellow. (You wouldn't call it a "cheap spin-off" and get so worked up over its canonicity if you didn't, otherwise.) It's still a canon main series game, though, like it or not.

I could care less about canon. You are the one who has a problem admitting the purpose of the Yellow version and can't accept the fact that it was made to adapt the anime.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 1:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8610204)
I could care less about canon. You are the one who has a problem admitting the purpose of the Yellow version and can't accept the fact that it was made to adapt the anime.

Then, why does Yellow's existence as a main series game bother you so much, then? So much that you want to start an argument over it?

I can't help but notice that your signature depicts Red's canon team... But, with Pikachu replaced with Aerodactyl. You obviously dislike Pikachu, so it's no wonder that you're not a fan of Yellow. (Although, you can always BOX the little yellow rat if you don't want to use it, you know.)

The fact that you picked Aerodactyl, of all things, to "replace" Pikachu also suggests that you're an Adventures fan, as that's the only place that I know of where Red owns an Aerodactyl...

... Seems like somebody might be a teensy bit bitter that GF pays more attention to the anime than his favorite non-canon adaptation. (Seriously, it's been almost 20 years, and you can count the number of Adventures references in the games on one hand. Less than a hand, in fact.)

Nah February 7th, 2015 3:36 PM

I didn't bother to read the whole thread, but there is one comment I'd like to make: Yellow is not a spin-off. It is an enhanced version of Red/Blue/Green. If you say that Yellow is a spin-off, you'd also have to say that every 3rd version (Crystal, Emerald, Platinum) is also a spin-off. But they're not. A spin-off would be something that uses the franchise as a basis but is wholly different. Examples of Pokemon spin-off games would be stuff like Pokemon Conquest or the Ranger sub-series.

I believe the reason why Yellow features several components of the anime in it is not because it's an adaptation of the anime (the plot and game structure is still very similar to that of R/B/G), but to draw in fans of the anime to the games. Not everyone's first exposure to Pokemon was through the games. Adding anime components into Yellow helps entice fans of the anime into buying the games if they've never played the games before.

BettyNewbie February 7th, 2015 5:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610419)
I didn't bother to read the whole thread, but there is one comment I'd like to make: Yellow is not a spin-off. It is an enhanced version of Red/Blue/Green. If you say that Yellow is a spin-off, you'd also have to say that every 3rd version (Crystal, Emerald, Platinum) is also a spin-off. But they're not. A spin-off would be something that uses the franchise as a basis but is wholly different. Examples of Pokemon spin-off games would be stuff like Pokemon Conquest or the Ranger sub-series.

I believe the reason why Yellow features several components of the anime in it is not because it's an adaptation of the anime (the plot and game structure is still very similar to that of R/B/G), but to draw in fans of the anime to the games. Not everyone's first exposure to Pokemon was through the games. Adding anime components into Yellow helps entice fans of the anime into buying the games if they've never played the games before.

THANK YOU.

I think many people fail to realize how intertwined the marketing for the games and anime was back in the Pokémania days. Even if the games came first, it wasn't until the anime became a huge success that the "Fad" took off, so it made sense to view the anime as an expansion of the games and treat them as one-in-the-same.

It wasn't uncommon for game-based materials to use anime artwork and treat Red/Blue and Ash/Gary as the same people. Like, the Monopoly and Master Trainer board games, for example. Both were actually based on the games' story (just look at the Gym Leaders' Pokémon on the Monopoly board), yet they used anime artwork for the Pokémon and Ash, Gary, and Jessie/James in place of Red, Blue, and the generic Rocket Grunts. The fact that "Ash" and "Gary" were default names of the PC and Rival in RB only helped this.

Yellow was only a natural extension of this marketing, a main series game that openly embraced the then-popular anime and successfully merged the two together. The end result was a game that enhanced Gen 1's setting and was arguably superior to RB.

Once Gen 3 hit and Pokémania had turned into backlash, the games and anime started to go their separate ways. Ash and Red both got redesigns that made them look more like different characters (same goes for Gary and Blue), and marketing materials based on the games no longer used anime artwork or put Ash and Pikachu on the cover (most blatant in the recent rerelease of Monopoly, which replaced all of the anime art with game art and swapped out Ash, Gary, and Jessie/James for Red, Blue, and generic Rocket Grunts).

While the games still include nods here and there to the anime (like the reference to Alain in ORAS, most recently), they're not as big or as numerous as the references in Yellow... But, that still doesn't make Yellow any less of a main series game.

mew_nani February 8th, 2015 1:02 AM

I will admit, I have a soft spot for Pokemon FR/LG. It was the first Pokemon game I ever played, I love the thing to death. But I do have to admit it's a more boring version of Pokemon Red and Blue. It would have been a lot better if they kept the day and night cycle and maybe integrated later evolutions like Crobat into the regional Pokedex. It sucked if you had a Golbat that was ready to evolve but couldn't because you didn't have the National Dex yet. The music isn't that bad, what with just being transposed up or down a few keys, but still it could be better. But the game needed more elaboration, especially with the Sevii Isles. There were so many mysterious things there that badly needed more explanation, like Pattern Bush and Altering Cave. (Also Birth Island and Navel Rock. Why were they event exclusive? WHY!? I remember seeing Lugia in the Pokedex you bought in stores for 3rd Gen and it had Navel Rock there and I kept wondering what it was. :( )

Also why don't we have weather? What kind of region doesn't have rain or snow? And finally Pokemon Yellow IS a mainstream game. Gold and Silver have Red with all 3 starters and Pikachu in his team, and you can get all 3 starters in Yellow. Also Pikachu is unevolved, and in Yellow you could not evolve the Pikachu you were given at the start of the game.

Mega_Kris February 8th, 2015 11:31 AM

Yellow may be enhanced version of Red/Blue.....however there are aspects of Yellow that tries harder to be a separate entity.


Having all pokemon is a mechanic aspect, not a story aspect. The reason why there are alternate version (version A and B) is to encourage trading between fans and completing the Pokedex, to find which version of Red/Blue/Yellow is canon based on the pokemon that you can capture is iinnacurate and irrelevant.


Also keep in mind that when yellow was made, pokemon 2 was already in the process of being made, (gold/silver). So some of the sprites were definitely able to be carried over.

Also Jessie, James, Meowth, how come we dont see them again? Other things such as Beach House in Route 19 dont appear, not even as a reference.

Blue/Green also doesn't even have eevee, flareon, cvaporeon or jolteon. So how come its valid to apply it to Red for having all starter and pikachu but doesnt even apply to Blue/Green?

Regardless, it wouldnt have hurt to used "some" elements from those games but not all too much. The problem with adding new routes is changing the set routes in Johto region. I definitely wouldve liked to see the companion system. However I will say this, FRLG feels just as entertaining as Red/Blue.....im not a huge fan of those games. I prefer yellow. But I never expected that FRLG would use Yellow. Did I hope for it? But never expected it.

LusoTrainer February 8th, 2015 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610303)
Then, why does Yellow's existence as a main series game bother you so much, then?

What's considered "main series" comes from fandom, not Game Freak. And as a fan, I have the right to state what I consider to be a main game and a spin-off, specially when it fits the description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610303)
You obviously dislike Pikachu,

No, I don't. But nice strawman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8610303)
The fact that you picked Aerodactyl, of all things, to "replace" Pikachu also suggests that you're an Adventures fan,

Wrong, again. The reason for why Aerodactyl is in my sig is because it's the only Pokémon that you receive/face, aside from Lapras and Snorlax, that is part of the main quest and doesn't require a choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610419)
I didn't bother to read the whole thread, but there is one comment I'd like to make: Yellow is not a spin-off. It is an enhanced version of Red/Blue/Green.

No. As I've said before, then enhanced version of Red/Green is Blue, which is what was used as a basis for the international release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610419)
If you say that Yellow is a spin-off, you'd also have to say that every 3rd version (Crystal, Emerald, Platinum) is also a spin-off.

No, I've not. Crystal, Emerald and Platinum are comparable to Blue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610419)
A spin-off would be something that uses the franchise as a basis but is wholly different.

It's different. You don't get to choose a starter of that region and the game was made with the intention to adapt the anime of that same franchise as seen by many of the changes and new features.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610419)
I believe the reason why Yellow features several components of the anime in it is not because it's an adaptation of the anime (the plot and game structure is still very similar to that of R/B/G),

That doesn't make it less of an adaptation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610419)
but to draw in fans of the anime to the games.

Exactly. Hence why they used the anime as inspiration. It was the very reason for why they made it in the first place.

BettyNewbie February 8th, 2015 3:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8611432)
Also Jessie, James, Meowth, how come we dont see them again? Other things such as Beach House in Route 19 dont appear, not even as a reference.

As for the TRio, their canonicity is about equal to Lorelei and Agatha's. For whatever reason, they didn't return in GSC, and GF didn't care enough to explain why. Same goes for the Beach House. (It may have been destroyed in the Cinnabar eruption for all we know; there were giant rocks from the eruption blocking the Route 19 path, after all.)

Their absence in FRLG and HGSS doesn't mean anything, as those games take place in a different timeline than RBY and GSC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny_Unown (Post 8611432)
Blue/Green also doesn't even have eevee, flareon, cvaporeon or jolteon. So how come its valid to apply it to Red for having all starter and pikachu but doesnt even apply to Blue/Green?

Blue's team is a mystery, yes. The best I can explain is that he boxed some of his team for other Pokémon after they had "failed" him in the final battle against Red. We know that he caught other Pokémon besides just the six he used in Yellow, and it seems like something he would do. (In fact, it's something that he did do with his Fearow and Rattata in that very game, the former disappearing after the Pokémon Tower battle, and the latter after the SS Anne battle.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8611771)
What's considered "main series" comes from fandom, not Game Freak. And as a fan, I have the right to state what I consider to be a main game and a spin-off, specially when it fits the description.

And, what makes your opinions any more "fact" than others? Do you work for Game Freak? I see far more people calling Yellow a main series game than a spin-off, and to me, majority rules.

Just admit your bias and move on. You hate the anime, and you hate Pikachu, and it absolutely offends you that GF ever acknowledged either enough to to create a main series "tribute" to both (as opposed to a certain manga that you undoubtedly consider to be a "superior" and "faithful" adaptation, despite it being even more far-off from the games' story than the early anime ever was... there's a reason why the anime took off and Adventures didn't).

LusoTrainer February 8th, 2015 4:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611772)
And, what makes your opinions any more "fact" than others?

Who's stated that they are facts? My opinion is supported by actual arguments (and these are based on facts), which you seem to be unable to deal with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611772)
I see far more people calling Yellow a main series game than a spin-off, and to me, majority rules.

That's a fallacy, therefore not a valid argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611772)
Just admit your bias and move on.

My bias?! You're kidding me, right? Look at your own original post and following comments and try to find the irony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611772)
You hate the anime, and you hate Pikachu,

Another strawman. But hey, when the arguments are lacking...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611772)
and it absolutely offends you that GF ever acknowledged either enough to to create a main series "tribute" to both (as opposed to a certain manga that you undoubtedly consider to be a "superior" and "faithful" adaptation, despite it being even more far-off from the games' story than the early anime ever was... there's a reason why the anime took off and Adventures didn't).

Apparently you are unable to have a valid argument and resort to strawmen and ad hominem to try to justify the unjustifiable.

And since you have a problem reading what I post, I'll re-post again, in bold (I can also increase the size, if you still can't read), my previous reply against your baseless accusations:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8611771)
No, I don't. But nice strawman.

(...)

Wrong, again. The reason for why Aerodactyl is in my sig is because it's the only Pokémon that you receive/face, aside from Lapras and Snorlax, that is part of the main quest and doesn't require a choice.


mew_nani February 8th, 2015 4:40 PM

Luso. Everybody. Calm down. Yellow is the official gen 1 game on which Gold and Silver is based on, and while it DOES include things from the anime it is STILL canon and is STILL the canon gen 1 game, or at least it was before FireRed and LeafGreen retconned it. Now can we just continue talking about how FireRed and LeafGreen could have been better, instead of squabbling over whether Yellow is canon or not?

LusoTrainer February 8th, 2015 4:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611827)
Luso. Everybody. Calm down. Yellow is the official gen 1 game on which Gold and Silver is based on, and while it DOES include things from the anime it is STILL canon and is STILL the canon gen 1 game,

Like I said, Game Freak never made any statements regarding "canon" or which version is meant to represent Generation 1 as a whole. It's not even what my argument is about.

mew_nani February 8th, 2015 4:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8611834)
Like I said, Game Freak never made any statements regarding "canon" or which version is meant to represent Generation 1 as a whole. It's not even what my argument is about.

It's still canon because Red's team in Gold and Silver has all 3 starters and one unevolved Pikachu in it. It's a nod to Yellow. But that's not the point; your utter refusal to even consider Yellow as canon is derailing the thread. This thread is about how FireRed and LeafGreen failed as remakes and how they could have been made better, not whether or not Yellow was canon or not, and that doesn't even matter because FR/LG retconned Yellow out of the timeline. If you wanna debate on whether or not Yellow was the true Gen 1 game go make your own thread about it, but leave it out of this one.

LusoTrainer February 8th, 2015 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611840)
It's still canon because Red's team in Gold and Silver has all 3 starters and one unevolved Pikachu in it.

See my post regarding that interpretation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611840)
your utter refusal to even consider Yellow as canon is derailing the thread.

Wrong. I never made any argument regarding "canon", precisely because Game Freak never made any claim about it. My argument was always that Yellow was a spin-off adaptation of the anime and therefore not something they should have based on if the purpose of these remakes was to re-tell the original quest as it was seen in Red/Green/Blue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611840)
If you wanna debate on whether or not Yellow was the true Gen 1 game go make your own thread about it, but leave it out of this one.

Read what has been written before making baseless accusations. The OP was the one who brought Yellow into this discussion. If you have a problem with Yellow being discussed, then talk to/blame him/her.

mew_nani February 8th, 2015 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8611871)
See my post regarding that interpretation.



Wrong. I never made any argument regarding "canon", precisely because Game Freak never made any claim about it. My argument was always that Yellow was a spin-off adaptation of the anime and therefore not something they should have based on if the purpose of these remakes was to re-tell the original quest as it was seen in Red/Green/Blue.



Read what has been written before making baseless accusations. The OP was the one who brought Yellow into this discussion. If you have a problem with Yellow being discussed, then talk to/blame him/her.

The OP brought Pokemon Yellow into the thread because Yellow was a Gen 1 game, and FR/LG are REMAKES of Gen 1. Elements of Pokemon Yellow being included in FR/LG are not bad, because FR/LG are remakes of Gen 1 as a whole, not simply remakes of Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue or Green. My "baseless accusations" aren't baseless at all, because you're STILL derailing the thread because you're missing the forest for the trees. Whether you think Pokemon Yellow is a canon game or just a spinoff of the anime is up to you, but it still doesn't change the fact it's a Gen 1 game and having elements of the game included in a remake is not a bad thing. Now if you wanna go argue with people whether Pokemon Yellow is on the same level as Pokemon Blue or Red go make your own thread and argue there. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation don't say anything.

BettyNewbie February 8th, 2015 5:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8611814)
Who's stated that they are facts? My opinion is supported by actual arguments (and these are based on facts), which you seem to be unable to deal with.

What facts? All I'm seeing coming from you is opinion... Which is derailing the entire thread.

I'm the one who actually provided a definition of what a "main series" game was. You, on the other hand, dismissed it without providing a source of your own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8611814)
My bias?! You're kidding me, right? Look at your own original post and following comments and try to find the irony.

I loathe RSE and FRLG, but I would never dismiss either as being "cheap spin-offs," because they still fit the definition of what a "main series" game is. You, on the other hand, won't give the Yellow the same courtesy.

Here are some other posts you've made elsewhere in the forum:

Quote:

I don't have a particular favorite, but I can say that I can't stand Pokémon Yellow.
Quote:

Like I said, I would never pick Yellow. Cheap anime tie-in, limited starter choice, Pikachu follows you in the overworld, is unable to evolve, etc...
Quote:

Pokémon Red, the anime only came later (until it ceased to get my attention).
How are these statements NOT biased? And, how do these NOT also imply a hatred for the anime? (Which, you're allowed to hate... Just OWN up to it!)

Now, can we please get back to the topic of the thread?

LusoTrainer February 9th, 2015 7:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611896)
What facts? All I'm seeing coming from you is opinion... Which is derailing the entire thread.

You are the one who brought Yellow into the discussion, and when some shared a different opinion than yours about it, you started making false claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611896)
I'm the one who actually provided a definition of what a "main series" game was.

Not an official definition, since Game Freak never made a statement about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611896)
You, on the other hand, won't give the Yellow the same courtesy.

I don't have to, the same way I don't have to share your opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611896)
Here are some other posts you've made elsewhere in the forum:

And what are the relevance of them to this thread? Isn't it ironic that you claim that I'm derailing this thread when all you do is make baseless accusations about me and bring posts made on different threads over here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611896)
How are these statements NOT biased?

They aren't. My feeling towards the anime are completely irrelevant to the fact that Yellow was an anime adaptation. That's a fact, not even up to debate. Yet you can't seem to accept it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8611896)
Now, can we please get back to the topic of the thread?

That's up to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611894)
The OP brought Pokemon Yellow into the thread because Yellow was a Gen 1 game, and FR/LG are REMAKES of Gen 1.

FR/LG are remakes of Red and Green, nothing more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611894)
Elements of Pokemon Yellow being included in FR/LG are not bad,

That's your opinion, not mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611894)
My "baseless accusations" aren't baseless at all,

Yes, they are. Denying it doesn't make them less baseless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611894)
because you're STILL derailing the thread because you're missing the forest for the trees.

You haven't provided any evidence for where I'm derailing the thread. You claim that I'm derailing it for not accepting Yellow as canon when that's completely false since I never made any statements about canon. You claim that I'm derailing because I'm discussing Yellow on a FR/LG thread when I wasn't the one who brought it into this discussion, etc, etc... Do I need to go on...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611894)
Whether you think Pokemon Yellow is a canon game or just a spinoff of the anime is up to you, but it still doesn't change the fact it's a Gen 1 game and having elements of the game included in a remake is not a bad thing.

That's not a fact, it's your subjective opinion. I don't share it, deal with it. Also, 'spin-off' and 'canon' aren't mutually exclusive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611894)
Now if you wanna go argue with people whether Pokemon Yellow is on the same level as Pokemon Blue or Red go make your own thread and argue there.

It takes at least two to argue, so look at your own comments before making claims about others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8611894)
If you don't have anything to add to the conversation don't say anything.

This is a discussion board. If you can't handle different opinions then you're in the wrong place.

mew_nani February 9th, 2015 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8612617)
FR/LG are remakes of Red and Green, nothing more.



That's your opinion, not mine.



Yes, they are. Denying it doesn't make them less baseless.



You haven't provided any evidence for where I'm derailing the thread. You claim that I'm derailing it for not accepting Yellow as canon when that's completely false since I never made any statements about canon. You claim that I'm derailing because I'm discussing Yellow on a FR/LG thread when I wasn't the one who brought it into this discussion, etc, etc... Do I need to go on...?



That's not a fact, it's your subjective opinion. I don't share it, deal with it. Also, 'spin-off' and 'canon' aren't mutually exclusive.



It takes at least two to argue, so look at your own comments before making claims about others.



This is a discussion board. If you can't handle different opinions then you're in the wrong place.

Dude you're just being a prick at this point. The evidence is the tons of posts you've made taking up half of the page trying to convince others you're right, everyone else is wrong, and Yellow is a terrible game and shouldn't be mentioned anywhere. You can think whatever you want and say what you want but you're derailing the thread around your own opinions, completely ignoring the main purpose of this thread. If you're so dissed that Yellow exists go make your own thread and leave this one alone! You are not adding anything at this point; you're just trying to inflate your own ego and you're annoying everybody else here. I'd be more than happy to argue about Pokemon Yellow in a proper thread that isn't about Pokemon FireRed and LeafGreen in the section made for the third generation of Pokemon games. This is the wrong dang place. We wish to talk about the remakes and why they were as bad as they were and how they could have been made better. That is the dang freaking title of the thread. If you don't wanna adhere to it go complain somewhere else. Don't just drag your own prejudices into the thread and act inconsiderate toward the people who actually WANT to talk about FR/LG.

BettyNewbie February 9th, 2015 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LusoTrainer (Post 8612617)
This is a discussion board. If you can't handle different opinions then you're in the wrong place.

Says the person who derailed an entire thread because somebody disagreed with him about a certain game. :rolleyes2:

To get back on topic, what are some things you would've changed about FRLG? Here are mine:

- All later Gen pre/evolutions obtainable in Kanto, along with every other Gen 2 Pokémon that was originally planned for Gen 1 (giving us a Regional Dex of around 190)
- At least, a watered-down clock like RSE's, if not full Day/Night
- Weather effects
- Berry Trees (or, at least, Berry Pots)
- A phone like the PokéGear and PokéNav
- Breeding on Route 5 Daycare
- Following Pokémon
- Gym Leaders based on Yellow (but with Koga and Sabrina's levels nerfed and their teams slightly altered)
- Unselected PC has a secondary rival role (the guy would be named "Red" and the girl would be named "Green")
- Jessie and James return as double battles (and have more appearances after Silph Co.)
- Team Rocket's connection to Mewtwo is fleshed-out
- Lugia's connection to Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres is fleshed-out
- The Sevii Islands are either expanded into a full region or scrapped for either the Orange Islands or Johto
- You can trade with RSE right away without any annoying sidequests, just like HGSS can trade with DPP from the get-go

Any other ideas?

Kip February 9th, 2015 2:42 PM

Throwing my hat in here. :) Long(ish) post...

I think it's possible we're looking at these games with the benefit of hindsight. The games were released almost 11 years ago and we've had two quite impressive remakes since which have set a precedent. We mustn't forget these were the very first Pokémon remakes, and there was no precedent set. It was a different time. What do you do? Do you try and stay as faithful as possible to the originals or do you add features, regions and plot to bring it in line with the current generation? The risk with the second strategy is that you may end up diluting and ruining the experience.

If the FRLG remakes were proposed to me right now after HGSS and ORAS, I would say yes, absolutely add the extra features and plot additions we've come to love because I know that it's possible to add them and still stay faithful to the originals, that'd be fantastic. But back in 2004, I would've err'd on the side of caution. This was RBY we were talking about. This was genesis. This was hallowed ground. I would have been very nervous that it would be ruined by Hoenn Pokémon or different plots arcs or characters, etc.

Personally I thoroughly enjoyed FRLG, more so than RSE. I certainly found myself coming back to FRLG during the DS era as opposed to RSE, but it's a little difficult to say why. I think what I liked about it was that instead of concentrating on gameplay gimmicks and features, the developers instead concentrated on refinements, i.e. making the game as smooth and clutter-free as possible. It's certainly a huge improvement over the RS engine, it's noticeably faster, the text is more readable and there are quite a few gameplay enhancements (icons for the bag for instance), a lot of which patched into Emerald (which is more than can be said for the initial pre-patched Diamond & Pearl experience *shudders*). They're little things, admittedly, but I do love small, thoughtful touches above all. It's quite nice for a game to get out of the way and just let me play if you know what I mean. I think that this refined gameplay is possibly the reason why the FireRed engine seems to be the defacto choice for ROM hackers.

I also liked the extent the developers went to to keep faithful to the originals - little things like the START menu deliberately resized from RSE to not take up all the screen, or the hero deliberately not turning around to face a trainer who's spotted them, echoing the programming oversight in the originals. I also like the lava cookie near the truck as a small tribute to fans and the legendary Mew theory. I like how legendary Pokémon, instead of having their own theme, have kept the standard wild battle theme but with a remixed twist.

I quite enjoyed the addition of the Sevii Isles and their links to Johto. I would have liked to seen more out of them but I was more than happy with what I got. Weirdly enough, the only feature I actively missed out of RSE was berry trees, though I could live with it. :P I actually miss the VS Seeker - I much preferred that than having to either wait for someone to call me or look them up on the PokéNav, though ORAS really came through in that regard with its trainer alerts so I'm happy.

I had no issues per-say with the addition of the help system, the battle tutorial and the Teachy TV, since it helped ease brand new players into the game. Considering that the games are designed to be playable for children of 3-10 years, it was slightly baffling that something like this hadn't been introduced before. I think they may have gone a little overboard, and they obviously reigned it back in later releases, but it's by no means a game breaker because, as a veteran player, you can just switch them off. It also meant that you didn't have to buy a strategy guide or look through the manual as a first-time player - by providing an easy-to-understand all-digital in-game help system, it was arguably ahead of its time.

Despite lack of gameplay features compared to RSE, they were still the second best-selling games of all time for the Gameboy Advance behind Emerald, and they also received a Player's Choice edition (a distinction not shared with RSE), suggesting that they did at least do something right.

In any case, I regard FRLG as a vital first step - testing the waters (including wireless play). Players were more than receptive of the remakes, the additional features that were present and were hungry for more, and it gave Game Freak the confidence to make more remakes with even better features and additional plot extras that we've all come to enjoy.

BettyNewbie February 9th, 2015 4:20 PM

Very interesting post, Kip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kip (Post 8613074)
I think it's possible we're looking at these games with the benefit of hindsight. The games were released almost 11 years ago and we've had two quite impressive remakes since which have set a precedent. We mustn't forget these were the very first Pokémon remakes, and there was no precedent set. It was a different time. What do you do? Do you try and stay as faithful as possible to the originals or do you add features, regions and plot to bring it in line with the current generation? The risk with the second strategy is that you may end up diluting and ruining the experience.

If the FRLG remakes were proposed to me right now after HGSS and ORAS, I would say yes, absolutely add the extra features and plot additions we've come to love because I know that it's possible to add them and still stay faithful to the originals, that'd be fantastic. But back in 2004, I would've err'd on the side of caution. This was RBY we were talking about. This was genesis. This was hallowed ground. I would have been very nervous that it would be ruined by Hoenn Pokémon or different plots arcs or characters, etc.

It could be said that FRLG were made under very different (and rather unfortunate circumstances) compared to HGSS and ORAS. The later remakes were mostly made as a favor to veteran fans and because the then-current handhelds could no longer play the originals, with the DS killing GB/C compatibility and the 3DS (well, technically, DSi) killing GBA compatibility. Both the GSC and RSE cartridges also suffered from battery issues that made them difficult to play (especially in the case of the former), an unfortunate side-effect of both games having a clock before their respective handhelds were really capable of supporting the feature.

With FRLG, it was different. RBY could still be played on the GBA, they weren't plagued with dead batteries, and the games were only 5-6 years old--out of print, but not terribly hard to find for a reasonable price.

Instead, the only real issue was Ruby and Sapphire. They couldn't trade with the earlier Generations, and they only had 200 of the 386 total Pokémon, leaving a whopping 186 completely MIA. Many people feared that the franchise had been rebooted for real and that those "missing" Pokémon were gone for good, along with the regions and characters from RBY/GSC (as Ruby and Sapphire contained few to no references to Kanto/Johto).

So, thus, FRLG could be seen as a last-ditch attempt on GF's part to win back the people repelled by Ruby and Sapphire and bring back those "missing" Pokémon. There's just no other way to explain why the games were rushed out so early, years before they should've been made, IMO. If it hadn't been for Ruby and Sapphire's hard reboot, we probably wouldn't have gotten FRLG until well into the DS era, at the earliest.

Things have changed since then. Now, both RBY and FRLG are 10 or more years old, neither of which can be played on a 3DS. Age has also finally started to catch up to RBY's cartridge batteries (since they lacked a clock, they took longer to die than GSC and RSE). And, both versions of Gen 1 are long out of print and are literally selling for a fortune on sites like eBay. ($900 for a 15 year old Pokémon game, whoo-hoo!) And, if it's any cheaper than an arm and a leg, it's probably a bootleg.

And, most importantly, GF has learned how to make remakes since then. These are all reasons why Gen 1 could use another go and get its own HGSS or ORAS. Give the original games the remakes they deserve, not the remakes another pair of games need.

ST2111 February 10th, 2015 6:41 PM

I remember when FireRed and LeafGreen were announced Pokemon fans everywhere were happy they were going to get to play the remakes of Red and Blue for the Gameboy Advance.

It seems to me that since that people's expectations have grown along with the franchise. I enjoy FireRed/LeafGreen because they didn't deviate too much from what made their predecessors so successful. It wasn't about having a Night/Day system or any of the bells and whistles R/S/E had. So when compared to HGSS or ORAS, FRLG are going to pale in comparison, however I don't believe it was the goal of GameFreaks to remake Red/Blue to begin with.

Their premise was simple...recapture the novelty and creativity of catching Pokemon in the GameBoy Advance era. With the releases HGSS and ORAS people's expectations are much more strict than it was when FRLG were first released.


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