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-   -   6th Gen History Repeating? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=343675)

Pinkie-Dawn February 6th, 2015 8:07 PM

History Repeating?
 
Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?

Howmander February 6th, 2015 8:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8609498)
Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?

That's one thing that always bugs me about people criticizing pokemon games: "Oh, I've been playing this game since the orignal games came out in 1999 and they're getting easier every gen!" totally ignoring basic logic: (1) if you were 7 in 1999 and 23 in 2015, OFCOURSE games are going to be easier and (2) if you've been playing a game series for 16 years, unless you have some sort of learning disability, OFCOURSE you're going to get better at the game series. That's called learning. EVERYONE gets better doing something for long periods at a time.

Cerberus87 February 6th, 2015 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8609498)
Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?

The tears of the Hoenn fans who claim their childhood was "ruined" taste really sweet...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8609524)
That's one thing that always bugs me about people criticizing pokemon games: "Oh, I've been playing this game since the orignal games came out in 1999 and they're getting easier every gen!" totally ignoring basic logic: (1) if you were 7 in 1999 and 23 in 2015, OFCOURSE games are going to be easier and (2) if you've been playing a game series for 16 years, unless you have some sort of learning disability, OFCOURSE you're going to get better at the game series. That's called learning. EVERYONE gets better doing something for long periods at a time.

I'll be very honest: Pokémon is a stale series and the remakes make it worse when they don't bring new things to the table. It's been since 4th gen that there isn't a significant change in mechanics. Mega Evolution is just a way to give evolutions to Pokémon that already have final forms. Storywise, it's always the same thing as well: get all the 8 badges, beat evil team after 7th badge and catch legendary, and beat the league. When GF changes something, it's rarely praised (story in BW) and often criticized (all new Pokémon roster in the same BW). Also there's more effort put into the "metagame" these days than the actual game. The metagame with its number obsession doesn't attract me in the least. The Battle Frontier Brains in Platinum sorta showed that the League doesn't mean squat in the end, so why is the story always the same thing with a new coat of paint every time?

Howmander February 6th, 2015 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8609588)
The tears of the Hoenn fans who claim their childhood was "ruined" taste really sweet...



I'll be very honest: Pokémon is a stale series and the remakes make it worse when they don't bring new things to the table. It's been since 4th gen that there isn't a significant change in mechanics. Mega Evolution is just a way to give evolutions to Pokémon that already have final forms. Storywise, it's always the same thing as well: get all the 8 badges, beat evil team after 7th badge and catch legendary, and beat the league. When GF changes something, it's rarely praised (story in BW) and often criticized (all new Pokémon roster in the same BW). Also there's more effort put into the "metagame" these days than the actual game. The metagame with its number obsession doesn't attract me in the least. The Battle Frontier Brains in Platinum sorta showed that the League doesn't mean squat in the end, so why is the story always the same thing with a new coat of paint every time?

Okay, first off, the game hasn't had significant change in the mechanics since the very first game, everything has been pretty much the same, except for comparatively minor changes (double/triple battles, etc) that's what has been keeping it popular. Look at the Mega Man series, they started going for a more graphically beautiful games, changing this that and the other thing about it in Mega Man 7, and 8, fans hated it, so mega man 9 and 10 went right back to the orignal NES mechanics and palet. Heck, mega man 10 even removed the ability to slide and charge the mega buster to make it more like the original games. And I don't understand what you mean by more effort being put into the meta game, it's nothing more than regular battles that you did hundreds of times in teh main story, the only difference is that the opponents are other people instead of random AI. The focus on the numbers has nothing to do with gamefreak, it's other players that are putting the focus on that. How can you see the huge amount of work put into the new games and claim they put more into the metagame when they literally did NOTHING beyond the exact same battle format you play in game? Now finally, you say that the games are the same over and over, which is a fair point, but you keep playing them, so obviously they're doing SOMETHING right by sticking to that format. After all, how many series ACTUALLY change over the years? you play Final Fantasy 1 and then the very latest final fantasy, it's still exactly the same just with in depth stories and amazing visuals, but it's still always the same thing: Heroes wander the world, do random tasks for people, find better weapons/spells/monsters, beat the bad guy, find out the bad guy WASN'T the bad guy but now fight the REAL bad guy, game over. Call of Duty: kill nazis, zombies, ghost, whatever until you fight the main nazis, zombies, ghosts, whatever, then go online and fight other people. Resident Evil: Watch 20 minute CGI intro, do one quicktime event, 14 minute CGI, one quicktime event, find guns, mow down zombies, 14 minute CGI and then your done.

Pinkie-Dawn February 6th, 2015 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8609594)
Okay, first off, the game hasn't had significant change in the mechanics since the very first game, everything has been pretty much the same, except for comparatively minor changes (double/triple battles, etc) that's what has been keeping it popular. Look at the Mega Man series, they started going for a more graphically beautiful games, changing this that and the other thing about it in Mega Man 7, and 8, fans hated it, so mega man 9 and 10 went right back to the orignal NES mechanics and palet. Heck, mega man 10 even removed the ability to slide and charge the mega buster to make it more like the original games. And I don't understand what you mean by more effort being put into the meta game, it's nothing more than regular battles that you did hundreds of times in teh main story, the only difference is that the opponents are other people instead of random AI. The focus on the numbers has nothing to do with gamefreak, it's other players that are putting the focus on that. How can you see the huge amount of work put into the new games and claim they put more into the metagame when they literally did NOTHING beyond the exact same battle format you play in game? Now finally, you say that the games are the same over and over, which is a fair point, but you keep playing them, so obviously they're doing SOMETHING right by sticking to that format. After all, how many series ACTUALLY change over the years? you play Final Fantasy 1 and then the very latest final fantasy, it's still exactly the same just with in depth stories and amazing visuals, but it's still always the same thing: Heroes wander the world, do random tasks for people, find better weapons/spells/monsters, beat the bad guy, find out the bad guy WASN'T the bad guy but now fight the REAL bad guy, game over. Call of Duty: kill nazis, zombies, ghost, whatever until you fight the main nazis, zombies, ghosts, whatever, then go online and fight other people. Resident Evil: Watch 20 minute CGI intro, do one quicktime event, 14 minute CGI, one quicktime event, find guns, mow down zombies, 14 minute CGI and then your done.

We should also mention what happens when you try to change a game series' formula for the sake of it. Star Fox Adventures, Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts, Resident Evil 5, Sonic Boom, etc. Plus, the GCN Pokémon games, despite having a different story format, wasn't so well-received because of the lack of elements that made the main handheld games so great in the first place.

Howmander February 6th, 2015 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8609603)
We should also mention what happens when you try to change a game series' formula for the sake of it. Star Fox Adventures, Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts, Resident Evil 5, Sonic Boom, etc. Plus, the GCN Pokémon games, despite having a different story format, wasn't so well-received because of the lack of elements that made the main handheld games so great in the first place.

That is utterly true. I liked the GCN pokemon games, but yes, it lost a HUGE part of the game by not allowing wild pokemon capturing, breeding, etc, cause I can say without a shred of exaggeration, that is the ENTIRE game for me (I got Y the day it came out, I racked up 999 hours and I'm STILL only just past the second gym. Once I discovered Wonder Trade, the GTS and the ability to breed pokemon and grow berries, that is literally ALL I did for a year!

TheUnit684 February 6th, 2015 11:07 PM

I haven't really heard ANY negative backlash towards ORAS like this...this post is the first I've heard it. I personally NEVER had any negative feelings towards Hoenn. Yeah I missed character customization, but really, I never cared about compatibility between gen 1 and 2 and Hoenn. It does feel "too easy" in a way, however, I attribute this mostly to Exp share and moveset changes. Movesets in Gen 3 Hoenn were ALOT worse than they are in Gen 6 Hoenn. Personally, ORAS are my favorite Pokemon games, and Ruby/Sapphire are probably the games that have the most nostalgic value for me.

Before you get on me for it, I did play Gen 1 and Gen 2 prior to Gen 3's release. I didn't care at all about trading between the Generations. When I found out there was postgame that allowed you to trade between Ruby/Sapphire and FireRed/LeafGreen, I was celebrating it because it felt like a nice bonus. Game Freak doesn't HAVE to include all the features in all the games. When they bring back a popular feature, we should be celebrating its inclusion, not complaining whenever its absent. Try to have a more positive outlook. :)

Orithan February 7th, 2015 5:04 AM

The hate comes from mostly R/S/E fanboys who wanted the remakes to be little more than a port of their nostalgic games to Gen VI plus Battle Frontier and their favorite pokemon getting megas *cough*Milotic and Flygon*cough* and those who want something groundbreaking every title, whereas the bulk of the sales aside from those people I imagine comes from those never played the originals like myself. That's my theory anyway.
I do however think that Pokemon is in some danger of dying considering it has suffered two consecutive generations of decline, but that is for another topic.

Alfieri February 7th, 2015 8:41 AM

Honestly, who cares?
Fans will complain about anything. The games are a great remake. They stay true to the Hoenn formula and expand upon the story and flesh out characters like Wally and May. Ruby and Sapphire got backlash because older fans couldn't use their Game Boy Pokemon anymore. People complain about Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire because of no battle frontier and lack of trainer customization. People still complain about no Pokemon following you so with that in mind, if someone complains about the series, ignore it.

blue February 7th, 2015 9:09 AM

For me it's not really an issue, aslong as I'm enjoying playing the games then I'm happy with that. I'll be honest though I haven't heard much negativity surrounding ORAS yet, if anything the reception has been generally positive. The sales figure for the games has already surpassed 9 million, and that's only within 3 months of being on sale.

Candy February 7th, 2015 9:27 AM

If I want to be honest, I actually view ORAS as a prettied up version of the original RSE. Aside from plotline, the whole place looks like a pure C+P of the original Hoenn in terms of looks and locations. FRLG gets the Sevii Isles, HGSS gets a new Safari Zone and the Pokeathlon and ORAS? Nothing. A whole big cauldron of nothing. No Battle Frontiers, no extra features, and really, the only new feature we got was the Soaring in the Sky feature.

And honestly, that's not even a new thing in Pokemon. We got to fly on the Lati twins at Pokemon Rangers: Guardian Signs. It didn't really hyped me up when the feature was announced, 'cause I've done it before. It's not that special.

And also, this is coming from someone whose first game is Sapphire. It feels more like playing RSE all over again, this time with the updated mechanics after Gen 3. Nothing else really special. It kinda disappointed me. I'd play XY all over again than ORAS tbh.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 7th, 2015 9:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusione-Tempus (Post 8610016)
If I want to be honest, I actually view ORAS as a prettied up version of the original RSE. Aside from plotline, the whole place looks like a pure C+P of the original Hoenn in terms of looks and locations. FRLG gets the Sevii Isles, HGSS gets a new Safari Zone and the Pokeathlon and ORAS? Nothing. A whole big cauldron of nothing. No Battle Frontiers, no extra features, and really, the only new feature we got was the Soaring in the Sky feature.

And honestly, that's not even a new thing in Pokemon. We got to fly on the Lati twins at Pokemon Rangers: Guardian Signs. It didn't really hyped me up when the feature was announced, 'cause I've done it before. It's not that special.

And also, this is coming from someone whose first game is Sapphire. It feels more like playing RSE all over again, this time with the updated mechanics after Gen 3. Nothing else really special. It kinda disappointed me. I'd play XY all over again than ORAS tbh.

Funny thing you mention that as Kanto fans who disliked FrLg tend to claim their remake was the most copy and paste of them thus far...at least the one's I've heard from.

I would've liked real new areas though.
Pinkie's post (and his vm to me) are also the first time I hear negative feedback like this. Most of the complaints are due to lack of frontier or any sort of good post Delta Episode stuff.

Hikamaru February 7th, 2015 9:57 AM

I don't really see anything bad with OR/AS because they patched up most issues that happened in the original games, such as movesets, along with easier ways to level up, even if the new Exp. Share eliminates any form of challenge if left on too offten. I didn't mind lack of trainer customization (I already love May's design anyway) or no Battle Frontier, but I do feel for those who did like those features even if there was a statement on Reddit explaining the axing of the Frontier.

Also, these games are doing way better sales-wise than the previous remakes, but then we have the end-of-year holiday season factoring in there. The Delta Episode was also something new in terms of postgame content, because it was an entirely extra story (albeit short) and while soaring on Latias/Latios is almost like what you did flying around with them in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs it still allows you to find and catch legendaries, and a few non-Hoenn Pokemon as well.

DexNav was also revolutionary, as well as the ability to now fly to anywhere, including routes. The reason why DexNav is something great about this game that I hope doesn't disappear in the next game is because it made finding hidden abilities and good IV'd Pokemon easier, which is a blessing to competitive players.

KENSHlN February 7th, 2015 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikamaru (Post 8610048)
I don't really see anything bad with OR/AS because they patched up most issues that happened in the original games, such as movesets, along with easier ways to level up, even if the new Exp. Share eliminates any form of challenge if left on too offten. I didn't mind lack of trainer customization (I already love May's design anyway) or no Battle Frontier, but I do feel for those who did like those features even if there was a statement on Reddit explaining the axing of the Frontier.

Also, these games are doing way better sales-wise than the previous remakes, but then we have the end-of-year holiday season factoring in there. The Delta Episode was also something new in terms of postgame content, because it was an entirely extra story (albeit short) and while soaring on Latias/Latios is almost like what you did flying around with them in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs it still allows you to find and catch legendaries, and a few non-Hoenn Pokemon as well.

DexNav was also revolutionary, as well as the ability to now fly to anywhere, including routes. The reason why DexNav is something great about this game that I hope doesn't disappear in the next game is because it made finding hidden abilities and good IV'd Pokemon easier, which is a blessing to competitive players.

So much win in this post. Go hika. xD

The only complaint I've seen was this:
3/10 too much water

I think Nintendo has been getting better making the stories ever since BW. XY was fairly solid. I don't like ORAS's story, because I feel like it takes too long for it to develop. With that being said, the Delta Episode was the best thing they've ever done story-wise too.
My wish would be for there to be an episode on every single legendary there is. Because I feel like that's been the weakest part in the franchise as far as story telling goes. There will be one plot throughout the game just about the game's respective main legendary. Then nothing about any of the others you can catch.
So I think the Delta Episode was a great step in the right direction. We can only hope they build on that.

XY made online features completely useable and easy to access. The best part was the character customization just because it feels more rpg like. Everyone can have their own unique identity which is special because all of us are different to begin with. That was such a great feature. I'll let it pass that it didn't happen in ORAS because it is a remake ultimately...

That dexnav feature was the best addition overall. Now you have some control as to what you actually can look for.

There is just waaaayy too much to analyze. @[email protected]

Pinkie-Dawn February 7th, 2015 1:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 8609995)
For me it's not really an issue, aslong as I'm enjoying playing the games then I'm happy with that. I'll be honest though I haven't heard much negativity surrounding ORAS yet, if anything the reception has been generally positive. The sales figure for the games has already surpassed 9 million, and that's only within 3 months of being on sale.

The large negativity surrounding ORAS are common on 4chan's /vp/ and Reddit, as well as other competitive-focused websites such as Smashboards, which all make up the bulk of the general opinions from the internet community. It's important for companies to take these websites seriously and consider not ticking them off, or else there may be online riots spamming through their e-mail and forums.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 7th, 2015 2:14 PM

warning I'm about to rant

ORAS made me realize that the Pokemon fanbase is really bad in general. It's actually related to the new Megas and not to the battle frontier.

Back when GameFreak announced that Gen 3 was going to have remakes, everyone was so excited, like I remember going on Pokemon Showdown and see lots of joke teams that featured 6 pokemon with Celebrate as their only move and their own alt being something such as "HOENN CONFIRMED" or "GEN 3 CONFIRMED". But now that ORAS is out everyone is complaining.
"WHY DID BEEDRILL, PIDGEOT AND GLALIE GET MEGAS??? WHY AUDINO, WHY SLOWBRO, WHY CAMERUPT, WHY FUCKING LOPUNNY OF ALL THINGS?! WHERE'S MY MEGA FLYGON AND MEGA MILOTIC???"
Yeah. You'll see crap like this on 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs as well as the comments to the official Pokemon videos. I know Pokemon is supposed to be for kids, but I bet most of the users who complained were at least 15. They need to thank GF for actually giving them a goddamn remake and not to act like the German kid we all know and love because they didn't get Mega Flygon. GF knows what's doing and gave mega evolutions both to fan favourites (looking at you, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Blastoise) AND to Pokemon that actually needed them, such as Beedrill, Glalie and Pidgeot. And honestly, they care about you. You wanted Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross? They gave you Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross. You wanted a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria? They gave you a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria. But all the Pokemon fanbase cares about is "WHY WATER/DARK MEGA GYARA, WHY DID GLALIE GET A MEGA AND NOT FROSLASS, HOW COME MEGA FLYGON/MILOTIC IS NOT A THING YET." I even saw some extremist comments such as "I'm done with Pokemon if they don't show us Mega Flygon" or "If Blissey gets a mega I'm gonna quit this game". Not kidding.
Not to mention everytime a powerful Pokemon (Salamence) gets a mega, they scream "WHY DO YOU MAKE OP POKEMON EVEN MORE OP" and when a Pokemon such as Audino gets a mega, they go "WHY FUCKING AUDINO OF ALL THINGS VOLCARONA NEEDS A FUCKING MEGA".

Nah February 7th, 2015 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmourPearlShipper (Post 8610328)
warning I'm about to rant

ORAS made me realize that the Pokemon fanbase is really bad in general. It's actually related to the new Megas and not to the battle frontier.

Back when GameFreak announced that Gen 3 was going to have remakes, everyone was so excited, like I remember going on Pokemon Showdown and see lots of joke teams that featured 6 pokemon with Celebrate as their only move and their own alt being something such as "HOENN CONFIRMED" or "GEN 3 CONFIRMED". But now that ORAS is out everyone is complaining.
"WHY DID BEEDRILL, PIDGEOT AND GLALIE GET MEGAS??? WHY AUDINO, WHY SLOWBRO, WHY CAMERUPT, WHY FUCKING LOPUNNY OF ALL THINGS?! WHERE'S MY MEGA FLYGON AND MEGA MILOTIC???"
Yeah. You'll see crap like this on 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs as well as the comments to the official Pokemon videos. I know Pokemon is supposed to be for kids, but I bet most of the users who complained were at least 15. They need to thank GF for actually giving them a goddamn remake and not to act like the German kid we all know and love because they didn't get Mega Flygon. GF knows what's doing and gave mega evolutions both to fan favourites (looking at you, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Blastoise) AND to Pokemon that actually needed them, such as Beedrill, Glalie and Pidgeot. And honestly, they care about you. You wanted Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross? They gave you Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross. You wanted a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria? They gave you a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria. But all the Pokemon fanbase cares about is "WHY WATER/DARK MEGA GYARA, WHY DID GLALIE GET A MEGA AND NOT FROSLASS, HOW COME MEGA FLYGON/MILOTIC IS NOT A THING YET." I even saw some extremist comments such as "I'm done with Pokemon if they don't show us Mega Flygon" or "If Blissey gets a mega I'm gonna quit this game". Not kidding.
Not to mention everytime a powerful Pokemon (Salamence) gets a mega, they scream "WHY DO YOU MAKE OP POKEMON EVEN MORE OP" and when a Pokemon such as Audino gets a mega, they go "WHY FUCKING AUDINO OF ALL THINGS VOLCARONA NEEDS A FUCKING MEGA".

I think that most (video game) fanbases have parts like this. They get really vocal about something they want. You give it to them. They get super-excited over news of the announcement of the thing they wanted. Then they bitch and whine about it after release because it didn't quite match every last little detail they wanted. They ask for the devs to innovate and try something new. The devs do that. Then they cry and scream because the devs "ruined" the game and it's "not [insert franchise here] anymore"......as if that's the mature way to do things. As if the game should be made to suit any one person's specific tastes.

Not saying that the entirety of any fanbase is like that, but there's a sizeable chunk of people like that in most of 'em. I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 7th, 2015 2:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610349)
I think that most (video game) fanbases have parts like this. They get really vocal about something they want. You give it to them. They get super-excited over news of the announcement of the thing they wanted. Then they bitch and whine about it after release because it didn't quite match every last little detail they wanted. They ask for the devs to innovate and try something new. The devs do that. Then they cry and scream because the devs "ruined" the game and it's "not [insert franchise here] anymore"......as if that's the mature way to do things. As if the game should be made to suit any one person's specific tastes.

Not saying that the entirety of any fanbase is like that, but there's a sizeable chunk of people like that in most of 'em. I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.

Exactly. But I think this is one of the most severe cases in existence. Not only does Pokemon have a huge fanbase already, but EVERYONE seemed to love Gen 3 during BW2, and XY, while during DPP and HGSS they bitched about this gen and called it the worst gen ever. So when ORAS was announced, the fans made a big 'tam-tam' about it. And you know the rest. Seriously, Reddit is a gold mine.

Megan February 7th, 2015 5:23 PM

Today people complain about how horrible the games have become and tomorrow they'll buy the new games, anyway. You know, there are some people who can only show appreciation by complaining about what they love and it's not, that Pokemon is the only franchise that's getting that treatment, either.

I say: let the sales decide how good the games are, because numbers don't care about opinions.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8610349)
I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.

You wouldn't even believe how true your statement is.

Howmander February 7th, 2015 7:15 PM

You know someone made an excellent point in that the move types were different in the original games than they were currently and I completely forgot about that. So in that respect, yes, I would say the current gen IS easier than the originals because in the originals there were SO many pokemon can couldn't learn STAB attacks because they were physical attackers but all their STAB movesets were special and vice versa. Back then Every fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Dragon and Dark type move was special and every normal, fighting, poison, ground, flying, bug, rock, ghost and steel type move was physical, so there were quite a few pokemon that never got that bonus 50% damage from their movesets so a lot of pokemon back then may have had a harder time going through the game than they do now.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 7th, 2015 9:40 PM

Though the enemy's mons would also have had a stab issue, for example Archie's Sharpedo didn't get stab that matches it's better offensive stat as both it's types were special (I also don't think it had any good moves that match it's type type...can't quite recall).
Who knows perhaps three gens from now everyone will be asking for Hoenn re-remakes like Kanto fans are now...though perhaps ORAS will be seen in the same light as the originals were during Gen V (and XY).

Pendraflare February 9th, 2015 6:09 AM

Wait a minute. Let me see if i'm getting this straight.

First in 2003 people hated Ruby and Sapphire then mostly for the fact that it had no backwards compatibility, then in 2011 when Black and White were mainstream people started loving Ruby and Sapphire, and now they call these games the worst in the series? This is news to me, so no, i'm not getting it.

Although if nothing else, I think Junichi Masuda's excuse for not putting the Frontier and character customization in the game (and a Challenge Mode for that matter) is one thing that really pissed people off.

Foamster-Whiskey February 9th, 2015 7:13 AM

Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire are re-makes of Ruby/Sapphire and Emerald, so what was in them games is pretty much going to be the same in ORAS. So with character customization in XY it's not going to be put into ORAS

Pendraflare February 10th, 2015 7:06 PM

^ That's kind of a valid point. In thinking about it I doubt that they would want to redesign the original characters out of the outfits they already had. With XY being new games and all it's understandable and hopefully for future games, but not in full-fledged remakes.

Lucifer February 16th, 2015 7:57 PM

To be honest, I do miss the character customization feature from X and Y. I'm not too fond of Brendan's outfit but I can deal sheesh.
As for the games being too easy, that's a really naive complaint. The player's choices effect that more than the AI.

The Exp. Share is probably the most significant factor affecting my gameplay personally because it quite a bit overtrained me for all the gyms from the point I'd received it forward as I'd leave it on. A Pokemon that out levels a gym leader's or any trainer's for that matter is not going to have too hard a time even with a type disadvantage but type still plays such a role that a single pokemon can be the difference between an easy and a difficult experience.

Let's examine my Wattson battle in Alpha Sapphire as an example. Wattson's entire team here has a secondary type of Steel, I'd begun with Torchic, a fire type which evolves with fighting as a secondary type both type advantages to steel. Once again the Exp. Share had me arriving in Mauville about two levels above his strongest Pokemon, as a result of all three of these factors I'd taken his entire team out in under five moves with my Cumbuskin alone.
If I'd done a few things differently I can imagine it being a bit more of a difficult battle. Because the Torchic line is pretty useless I have a feeling my Cumbuskin would have fallen very behind in level had I not had that Exp. Share turned on or not received it at all. Just as out levelling your opponent can cancel out a type advantage so is true the vise-versa, an under-leveled Pokemon can also cancel out the opponent's type disadvantage. If I'd played with the same team but had chosen to begin with Treeko, even with the use of the experience share to over level me I might have once again been in trouble because said team did not really have an electric or steel strength and to ice the cake had a fair bit of electric weakness. I could, however, have possibly mimicked my real experience in the hypothetical Treeko scenario with the choice to capture and train a geodude which is immune to electricity. Considering, however that rock is weak to steel that geodude might have still failed had I not used the Exp. Share to over level it.

Looking at Liza and Tate now, again my team was over-levelled and I conquered their rock weaknesses rather than psychic with my Superior and Sharpedo.

There can be cases of poor execution on the AI's part, I'll admit. Flannery may have had a chance against my over leveled Seaking had she not started out each of her Pokemon using Sunny Day (though not too likely since Princess took them each out with one Water Pulse/Waterfall hehe) and moving down a generation to Soul Silver/Heart Gold Whitney's changed tactic to spamming Stomp instead of Rollout caused her to do a fair bit less damage. With some moves they use it's a case of rolling the dice though. The first time I battled Whitney in SS she never once used Milk Drink but the second time I did when I restarted the game she did once, maybe twice (it's been a while) and might have even used super potions which totally didn't happen the first time. This also leads me to another example of how different choices in Pokemon used can change the experience, the second SS Whitney battle was a bit more daunting than the first without an Impish quagsire to take all the stomps with barely a dent.

In the end it's still all about choices even when the AI changes things up on you and with remakes like AS/OR the fact that we know what to expect can also effect those choices or even our perception of the battles. Age can also be a factor because over the years and with each new generation release you learn more. Honestly, it wasn't until I was training a swellow around route 111 where lots of Machop dwell that I discovered by accident that flying moves are super effective against fighting. type Pokemon.

Basically, the player makes it easy NOT the developers.

Altairis February 16th, 2015 9:04 PM

Well, I guess it can be said this because after a while the same formula DOES get old, even if ORAS specifically wasn't designed to bring many new things to the table. At its core, the game is basically is the same as every other Pokemon game, with some shiny new features. I really like several of the ORAS-specific features, such as the DexNav and Soaring, but given Nintendo's pattern of keeping larger features specific to the game they were introduced in (such as walking Pokemon in HGSS, character customization in XY, with the exception of Pokemon Amie), it's likely that these features won't be in the next Pokemon game. I mean, even if these WERE in the next game, it would just become repetitive and everything would be the same except for a few small characters, plot, and location.

Don't get me wrong, I love ORAS. But maybe the sales are just falling because the basics are the same: 8 gyms, elite four, only some post game. In the end, though, Pokemon will still get money regardless of how "good" the games actually are.

Pendraflare February 17th, 2015 12:39 PM

That's basically true - different games have different features, so it's not likely that we're going to get much of the same small side things in more than one game a lot of the time. If they were, it probably would kill the uniqueness of some of them.

lexxiel February 17th, 2015 3:25 PM

To be honest i stopped playing pokemon back in the gold/silver for the game boy color and recently came back to ORAS and I have to say i enjoyed it greatly, I picked up a copy of X and have started playing that as well but I feel i enjoyed playing Alpha saphire more so i might have to give x more time but i can put Alpha down XD

Pepperton February 17th, 2015 4:56 PM

I haven't even heard that many people bashing the remakes, to be quite honest. In my own opinion, though, ORAS was a great pair of games that lived up to my expectations, definitely. I think a lot of people had their expectations very high, and were a bit disappointing to see the lack of changes from the originals, which bugs me because it is a remake, by name, and should follow the originals as much as possible. The difficulty didn't affect me, even as someone who plays competitively. Steven was extremely hard to take down, and I had EXP Share on the whole game.

Birthday Thunder February 17th, 2015 5:38 PM

ORAS was to me, the worst pokemon games to date. For remakes of Ruby and Sapphire, they were fine but almost every new feature fell short.

1. Secret Bases - I mean, what the heck were they thinking by making the maximum amount of pokemon you could have on your team three?!! Oh and don't even get me started on the whole "you can make your own gym with other trainers in it and you as a gym leader! BUT we're going to make their teams rattatas, pidgeys and caterpies!! Not the teams you want to make your gym theme complete with. Such a wasted potential there and downright lie about what could have made secret bases the best thing in the game. I'm still fuming about that all these months later.

2. No Battle Frontier - This was the biggest disappointment for so many fans of emerald's battle frontier. According to an interview I read with one of the creators of the game, the only reason they didn't put it in was because new and inexperienced players wouldn't be able to beat it or something like that. Also something about strategies needed for each facility would be too complicated. Please, what a lazy cop-out to not put anything extra into the postgame.

3. Soaring - BORING (see what I did there?)

4. No rematches with the gym leaders - Let's allow you to re-battle every trainer except the gym leaders. Sounds like a great idea! You know, they're the strongest people aside from the elite 4, but they aren't really all that important to the story for a simple rematch.

Honestly, I would list more, but I'm fearful of all the game's defenders starting a war with me over my opinions. I will say, dex nav is awesome!

giradialkia February 17th, 2015 6:15 PM

I thought I'd posted in this thread before, but I guess not. So I'll do so now! :)

All in all, there are a lot of factors new to ORAS that change things up significantly, even though it stays reasonably true to the original games. Honestly though, I think they've done very, very well with the re-introduction of Hoenn, and that it absolutely won't follow in the footsteps in the originals as 'the worst (or at least, the least successful) generation of games'.

Some of the things introduced, such as Mega Evolution and the renewed EXP share, definitely changed the way the game was played. There's no way around saying that the EXP Share made it substantially easier - I turned it off periodically throughout the game, and managed to be on a par with Steven by the end of the game, but it was hard to find a medium! When it was on, I'd become overlevelled before too long, and while it was off, I'd fall a bit short. It definitely taught me how to better (more enjoyably) utilise the new mechanics of the EXP share.

That said, there are some features omitted from ORAS that did leave me a little disappointed, such as the lack of an ability to customise your character. Plenty of people (even in this thread) have reasonably argued that the feature was present in XY because they were new games, but even so, I would've liked to at least be able to change the CLOTHES of my character, if not the hairstyle, etc. Although it did bring me back into that feeling I love from Pokémon games, setting up a canon, and whatnot.

I do agree with points 2 and 4 raised by Birthday Thunder above, though; people have argued the lack of a Battle Frontier with "It wasn't in the original games, so it won't be in the remakes.", and I honestly don't know what those people are thinking. To HELL with that! There are plenty of things that weren't in the originals - one of the major things wrong with FRLG was sticking with that sentiment, omitting features that could simply add to the renewed world. If ORAS left out Mega Evolution throughout the story, it would've been quite boring. But look what they did! They introduced it, and not only that, gave you access to a Lati mid-story. That was great!
I mean, the Battle Resort Island is nice and all, but the fact that it's still a Battle Maison sorta bugs me a bit. I would've liked it to be a Battle Tower again, although to be quite fair, I see why that's hard to reintroduce. The Maison made it super fast to blast through loads of battles, quitting whenever you want. A tower makes it harder, and would require more cutscenes and so on. Though even with all this in mind, I still would've loved to have played through a modernised Battle Frontier. It was a really fun post-game feature of Hoenn's, so it's a shame they left it out.

As well as that, the rematch feature of the Pokénav+ was greeeeeeeeat, but the fact that they plain just didn't let you rematch the gym leaders also sucked. Sure, another feature introduced in Emerald, but one that positively influenced the game, literally no reason to leave it out in ORAS (HGSS did it, even though it wasn't in the originals, so nobody start with that! :P).

Despite its few lackings, I really think ORAS pulled out all the stops, or at least most of them, and was a great playing experience. I've been tempted to get AS just so I can play the story mode a couple more times!

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire February 17th, 2015 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giradialkia (Post 8622696)
I thought I'd posted in this thread before, but I guess not. So I'll do so now! :)

All in all, there are a lot of factors new to ORAS that change things up significantly, even though it stays reasonably true to the original games. Honestly though, I think they've done very, very well with the re-introduction of Hoenn, and that it absolutely won't follow in the footsteps in the originals as 'the worst (or at least, the least successful) generation of games'.

Some of the things introduced, such as Mega Evolution and the renewed EXP share, definitely changed the way the game was played. There's no way around saying that the EXP Share made it substantially easier - I turned it off periodically throughout the game, and managed to be on a par with Steven by the end of the game, but it was hard to find a medium! When it was on, I'd become overlevelled before too long, and while it was off, I'd fall a bit short. It definitely taught me how to better (more enjoyably) utilise the new mechanics of the EXP share.

That said, there are some features omitted from ORAS that did leave me a little disappointed, such as the lack of an ability to customise your character. Plenty of people (even in this thread) have reasonably argued that the feature was present in XY because they were new games, but even so, I would've liked to at least be able to change the CLOTHES of my character, if not the hairstyle, etc. Although it did bring me back into that feeling I love from Pokémon games, setting up a canon, and whatnot.

I do agree with points 2 and 4 raised by Birthday Thunder above, though; people have argued the lack of a Battle Frontier with "It wasn't in the original games, so it won't be in the remakes.", and I honestly don't know what those people are thinking. To HELL with that! There are plenty of things that weren't in the originals - one of the major things wrong with FRLG was sticking with that sentiment, omitting features that could simply add to the renewed world. If ORAS left out Mega Evolution throughout the story, it would've been quite boring. But look what they did! They introduced it, and not only that, gave you access to a Lati mid-story. That was great!
I mean, the Battle Resort Island is nice and all, but the fact that it's still a Battle Maison sorta bugs me a bit. I would've liked it to be a Battle Tower again, although to be quite fair, I see why that's hard to reintroduce. The Maison made it super fast to blast through loads of battles, quitting whenever you want. A tower makes it harder, and would require more cutscenes and so on. Though even with all this in mind, I still would've loved to have played through a modernised Battle Frontier. It was a really fun post-game feature of Hoenn's, so it's a shame they left it out.

As well as that, the rematch feature of the Pokénav+ was greeeeeeeeat, but the fact that they plain just didn't let you rematch the gym leaders also sucked. Sure, another feature introduced in Emerald, but one that positively influenced the game, literally no reason to leave it out in ORAS (HGSS did it, even though it wasn't in the originals, so nobody start with that! :P).

Despite its few lackings, I really think ORAS pulled out all the stops, or at least most of them, and was a great playing experience. I've been tempted to get AS just so I can play the story mode a couple more times!

ORAS missing the BF and lacking rematches sure looks bad when you compare it to what the previous remake pair had...HGSS had the Battle Tower which was in Crystal only plus the rest of the Pt BF, also it had rematches against the gym leaders. I must say it's quite sad that only one out of the three remake pairs thus far have had rematches against gym leaders...ORAS seems to taunt the player though with those things as Wallace says he'll like to battle the player again if you talk to him after defeating the league (and I think DE too), and Brawly also mentions getting stronger. Then there's the BF being built and how Scott is already done recruiting the BFB with Lucy being the last one.

Pinkie-Dawn March 9th, 2015 8:22 AM

So Bulbapedia has posted an article regarding the criticisms of ORAS, and I thought I would like to share it with you guys: http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Omega_Ruby_and_Alpha_Sapphire:_A_retrospective_review

Palkia March 11th, 2015 1:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birthday Thunder (Post 8622670)
ORAS was to me, the worst pokemon games to date.

The entirety of Gen V waves hi.

OR/AS were the best in the series so far, although the lack of battle frontier was annoying and the mega evolutions were shoehorned into the game awkwardly. I think the real issue what that HG/SS felt like they had all the features of Crystal just split into two games. Meanwhile OR/AS are much more based on R/S than E. Some of the touches that made emerald really special are absent, although all the new features that subsequent games past emerald brought make it a more even, if less cohesive, experience. Really ORAS feels like a real follow up to X/Y rather than a R/S remake, basically using the same wireframe but building the game from the ground up. It really feels like the first remake that doesn't replace the original for better or worse in my eyes.

Candy March 12th, 2015 8:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8648447)
So Bulbapedia has posted an article regarding the criticisms of ORAS, and I thought I would like to share it with you guys: http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Omega_Ruby_and_Alpha_Sapphire:_A_retrospective_review

It's funnt since my opinion on ORAS is practically the same as the one who made the article: the feeling that ORAS feels more like a remake than an updated remake of RSE. As my post on this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusione-Tempus (Post 8610016)
If I want to be honest, I actually view ORAS as a prettied up version of the original RSE. Aside from plotline, the whole place looks like a pure C+P of the original Hoenn in terms of looks and locations. FRLG gets the Sevii Isles, HGSS gets a new Safari Zone and the Pokeathlon and ORAS? Nothing. A whole big cauldron of nothing. No Battle Frontiers, no extra features, and really, the only new feature we got was the Soaring in the Sky feature


Sun March 12th, 2015 3:11 PM

The Pokémon main series formula: New region, new Pokémon, 8 badges, E4 and a champion, crime syndicate team.

I got no problem with them, in fact I enjoy it a lot. I love how they can make a new plot while blending in the formula. :)

As for the games becoming more easier? That was actually verified by one of the Game Freak staff (go Google the interview article yourself). The reason for making the games easier because Pokémon is facing more and more challenges nowadays, challenges including from fellow handheld Nintendo games to free cellphone/tablet games etc. Hence the introduction of Horde Encounters and Super Training for easier EV training, Friend Safari and PokeNav encounter, easier breeding mechanics (Destiny Knot-breeding, female Pokémon being able to pass egg moves, male Pokémon passing HAs, etc.), easy level up techniques: instant rematch from Trainers Eye in OrAs/Battle Chateau in XY, easier access to Lucky Eggs and the change with Exp. Share. And more. So the games are made easier to attract more casual players, more diverse group ages.

Hikamaru March 12th, 2015 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8648447)
So Bulbapedia has posted an article regarding the criticisms of ORAS, and I thought I would like to share it with you guys: http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Omega_Ruby_and_Alpha_Sapphire:_A_retrospective_review

I did a read of that piece by MAGNEDETH, and I do sorta agree with his statement about the water routes being one of the cons with Hoenn. There were like so many of them and they always had the same Pokemon, plus it was easy to get lost (I remember the hell that was my original Ruby playthrough) but thankfully the AreaNav and lowered encounter rate makes it less of a hassle now.

Team Magma/Aqua's appearances were also not very well fleshed out, again another thing fixed up by the remakes. Also, while Hoenn had its negative things it did have its positives, such as the introduction of natures, abilities and a revamped EV system helped build the competitive scene as it's seen today.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire March 12th, 2015 8:53 PM

They should've added more water mons to the originals...From Gen I-IV there were issues with species per type diversity. Well Gen I-II's main issue in that regard is that they didn't make many dragons and ghosts... Gen III-IV was not including enough ice, and fire types (among others) from past gens...

KillerTyphlosion March 13th, 2015 12:24 AM

Oras did a lot of good and amazing things. I mean the intro was so awesome. The dexnav was cool and really usefull. But all these changes makes the game to easy at some point. Even if you don't ev train, use exp share or rebattle trainers every 5 seconds. Most of my pokémon levels were close to steven's levels while I had turned off exp share and I only rebattled the first 2 rich kids for a bit of money. In the originals my pokémons levels were mostly of the time below level 50 when reaching the e4.

Not to mention you just get latios/latias handed out to you. That is just stupid and not only that you get his mega right away. The lati's should have remained post-game and make a side quest to get the mega stone and the flute so you can soar with him. But cathing the lati's should have remained the same as in the originals.
And it would be cool if you could soar with every pokémon that knows fly. Just make it a big black bird or something but some things can only be reached with the lati's.

No battle frontier also sucks. I was really looking forward for the battle frontier and was really dissapointed by this.

The fact that oras brought a lot of new features to the table was good. Most noteable is flying to every route and the dex nav. But Compared to HG/SS I think they could have done better. The only thing I didn't like in hg/ss is that red had lapras in stead of espeon. And that you couldn't get the elemental punches early. Oras new features are really good but I still find the game lacking and I hope if they ever remake gen 4 they remake everything and don't screw something up.

Sun March 13th, 2015 9:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8653180)
They should've added more water mons to the originals...From Gen I-IV there were issues with species per type diversity. Well Gen I-II's main issue in that regard is that they didn't make many dragons and ghosts... Gen III-IV was not including enough ice, and fire types (among others) from past gens...

As the captain of PC Water-type club myself, I say the amount of Water-type in Hoenn is more than enough. :)

The lack of Ice-type is understandable considering Hoenn's a tropical region. It's just weird to see the likes of Dewgong, Sneasel, Cloyster, etc. getting stuffed in that Shoal Cave. Fire-types were on the right amount.

Pinkie-Dawn March 13th, 2015 9:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makoto Tachibana (Post 8653718)
As the captain of PC Water-type club myself, I say the amount of Water-type in Hoenn is more than enough. :)

The lack of Ice-type is understandable considering Hoenn's a tropical region. It's just weird to see the likes of Dewgong, Sneasel, Cloyster, etc. getting stuffed in that Shoal Cave. Fire-types were on the right amount.

Then what was Game Freak thinking when they made one of the Elite 4 members an Ice Specialist despite Hoenn only having the Spheal line and Snorunt line (Regice is a legendary)? There's a reason why type diversity is the most important aspect of the games. They could easily made her into a Grass specialist with Roselia, Bellossom, Tropius, Ludicolo, and Breloom in the originals (with Roselia becoming a Roserade for ORAS), since there's plenty of Grass types in Hoenn.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire March 14th, 2015 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8653733)
Then what was Game Freak thinking when they made one of the Elite 4 members an Ice Specialist despite Hoenn only having the Spheal line and Snorunt line (Regice is a legendary)? There's a reason why type diversity is the most important aspect of the games. They could easily made her into a Grass specialist with Roselia, Bellossom, Tropius, Ludicolo, and Breloom in the originals (with Roselia becoming a Roserade for ORAS), since there's plenty of Grass types in Hoenn.

Yeah...GF made lots of dumb mistakes...like they should've made Agatha a Poison specialist over a ghost specialist. Also Lance should've been a Flying over a Dragon specialist...thing is that their original teams would have been 100 percent of those specialties...

PlayRoughh March 14th, 2015 1:40 PM

yeah i honestly find it so weird that they removed customization?!? it better be back in the next games lol

BettyNewbie March 14th, 2015 2:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8653733)
Then what was Game Freak thinking when they made one of the Elite 4 members an Ice Specialist despite Hoenn only having the Spheal line and Snorunt line (Regice is a legendary)? There's a reason why type diversity is the most important aspect of the games. They could easily made her into a Grass specialist with Roselia, Bellossom, Tropius, Ludicolo, and Breloom in the originals (with Roselia becoming a Roserade for ORAS), since there's plenty of Grass types in Hoenn.

GF hasn't always thought things through the best when it comes to type specialists, especially E4 members. (Got a region that only has two fully-evolved Fire types? Let's have a Fire E4 member!) It wasn't until the Unova games (particularly, B2W2) that we even got a Dex that represented all types relatively equally, after all, and Gym Leaders and E4 members have always been an area where the "story" aspect was prioritized over gameplay, for better or worse.

(That is how we ended up with so many Dragon specialists that didn't have full teams or even actual Dragon types, for example. Storywise, Dragons are supposed to be rare, so there are fewer of them, but gameplay-wise, that leads to things like Lance having to fill space with dupe Dragonairs... Or, with dupe Dragonites.)

Everything about the Hoenn E4, in general, was poorly thought-out, though. They were our first non-Indigo E4, and yet, they all used types that Indigo Elites had previously used, as if they were meant to be substitutes for them in the same way that Beautifly was meant to be a substitute for Butterfree. (Drake was even the 4th one, just like Lance!)

Oh, why couldn't have Glacia been a Grass specialist, instead? We also had enough for a Ground E4 as well. Even better, why not have the Hoenn E4 do something else, like have color-based teams or dual-specialities (possibly even in double battle form)? Since they were the first non-Indigo E4, the Hoenn Elites would've been a perfect opportunity to mix things up and do something a little different with the League.

Cerberus87 March 14th, 2015 4:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8655523)
Yeah...GF made lots of dumb mistakes...like they should've made Agatha a Poison specialist over a ghost specialist. Also Lance should've been a Flying over a Dragon specialist...thing is that their original teams would have been 100 percent of those specialties...

Two Gengars are harder than everything Poison-type you could throw at the player in RBY, plus Koga was that gen's Poison specialist.

Of course, in GSC you have dupes, but GSC has more specialists than types, and no Ground-type specialist. In general the games without two regions don't have dupes (which is somewhat of a drawback of GSC).

adameastment March 14th, 2015 4:39 PM

I don't like threads like this, RSE and now ORAS are quite honestly - my favourite games to date. I love everything about them, even when I sold my Gameboy Advance and games, I kept the Pokemon Games just to continue playing them. I was literally in it for a generation (picking up Gold at one point) then leaving the Pokéfandom :P.

When playing XY/ORAS for the first time, being able to use an EXP share that will apply to all members rather than just the first was a massive improvement. For the first time playing a Pokemon game I was able to built an entirely balanced team and actually properly get to know lots of different Pokemon. In that respect, I think that ORAS (and by extension XY) have done a great deal to improve the enjoyment of the game for those players who either don't have a huge amount of time or (like me) find it a monotonous task and would rather just be able to switch between different pokes. I loaded my original Ruby game the other day and attempted Norman's gym, couldn't beat him with my Combusken and that was my only real choice to use - frustrating.

I do agree that occasionally Game Freak can make things a little odd, like has been mentioned the E4 was almost exactly the same in terms of typings and that kinda thing. Which I agree was a bit odd considering the Pokes available within game, and it seemed to be overlooked when you actually stop and think about it.

But, I do think that both times the games have been released, they've added elements that allow for people to enjoy the game more. RSE had it in better colour than the GBC, it introduced new stuff like better berries, contests, different elements like the Pokemon being able to look cool and that kind of thing. In ORAS, we've got the DexNav allowing the playing to gain egg moves on Pokemon and being able to find Pokes with their hidden ability, ultimately allowing more variation within teams, and once the players knew what they were doing allow them to build more complex and diverse teams.

The biggest issue I have, is that you effectively need 2 games of the 4 currently released this generation and then trade to get the Pokemon you need. I know this has basically been the case since DPPl, but when every generation's box legends and side legends can be obtained with 2 games (using the GTS to get their opposites) or using Bank and owning both games it does make it a bit easier to complete the pokedex. It makes you question Game Freak's reasoning for it, I know for some who don't have the cash to spend on the games it's more difficult, but modern technology makes everything so much easier and less social (although, internet use isn't Game Freaks fault - everyone uses it).

The whole [email protected] argument though, making it so it joins your team and you don't have to chase it to capture it (imo) is great. The entire faff of having to chase it down around the map is ridiculous, I'd had enough of it in GSC/HGSS when I replayed those games and had to catch Entei and Raikou. The idea of getting the other one through an event/streetpass is also great. Then having an actual battle, also great. Also being able to fly from a city to a specific route is amazing, a definitely improvement. Ultimately, ORAS was a massive improvement upon RSE and arguably it's also an improvement (graphically) on XY.

Overall, if you look at ORAS compared to RSE it is a vast improvement, I don't miss the Battle Frontier in all honesty, I still replay Emerald and I still don't get very far within the Frontier - it doesn't interest me hugely. Although, it would have been nice to see, but personally I don't think we're missing a great deal. Alternatively, you can compare XY to ORAS, which you do see some differences, ORAS losing the ability to customise clothing. But the things that annoy me most about XY? The constant "update your PSS profile" "check out wondertrade!", that was stopped in ORAS. The movement, in XY you could move in a defined grid - ORAS you don't! I love that.

I just feel that people are dismissing or unhappy with things in ORAS that doesn't really improve your gameplay, yes you were able to customise your player or do nice graphical things. But ORAS refined everything in terms of gameplay and made it much more fluid and nicer. It introduced Hoenn to an entirely new Generation and improved all of my favourite Pokemon.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire March 14th, 2015 6:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adameastment (Post 8655774)
I don't like threads like this, RSE and now ORAS are quite honestly - my favourite games to date. I love everything about them, even when I sold my Gameboy Advance and games, I kept the Pokemon Games just to continue playing them. I was literally in it for a generation (picking up Gold at one point) then leaving the Pokéfandom :P.

When playing XY/ORAS for the first time, being able to use an EXP share that will apply to all members rather than just the first was a massive improvement. For the first time playing a Pokemon game I was able to built an entirely balanced team and actually properly get to know lots of different Pokemon. In that respect, I think that ORAS (and by extension XY) have done a great deal to improve the enjoyment of the game for those players who either don't have a huge amount of time or (like me) find it a monotonous task and would rather just be able to switch between different pokes. I loaded my original Ruby game the other day and attempted Norman's gym, couldn't beat him with my Combusken and that was my only real choice to use - frustrating.

I do agree that occasionally Game Freak can make things a little odd, like has been mentioned the E4 was almost exactly the same in terms of typings and that kinda thing. Which I agree was a bit odd considering the Pokes available within game, and it seemed to be overlooked when you actually stop and think about it.

But, I do think that both times the games have been released, they've added elements that allow for people to enjoy the game more. RSE had it in better colour than the GBC, it introduced new stuff like better berries, contests, different elements like the Pokemon being able to look cool and that kind of thing. In ORAS, we've got the DexNav allowing the playing to gain egg moves on Pokemon and being able to find Pokes with their hidden ability, ultimately allowing more variation within teams, and once the players knew what they were doing allow them to build more complex and diverse teams.

The biggest issue I have, is that you effectively need 2 games of the 4 currently released this generation and then trade to get the Pokemon you need. I know this has basically been the case since DPPl, but when every generation's box legends and side legends can be obtained with 2 games (using the GTS to get their opposites) or using Bank and owning both games it does make it a bit easier to complete the pokedex. It makes you question Game Freak's reasoning for it, I know for some who don't have the cash to spend on the games it's more difficult, but modern technology makes everything so much easier and less social (although, internet use isn't Game Freaks fault - everyone uses it).

The whole [email protected] argument though, making it so it joins your team and you don't have to chase it to capture it (imo) is great. The entire faff of having to chase it down around the map is ridiculous, I'd had enough of it in GSC/HGSS when I replayed those games and had to catch Entei and Raikou. The idea of getting the other one through an event/streetpass is also great. Then having an actual battle, also great. Also being able to fly from a city to a specific route is amazing, a definitely improvement. Ultimately, ORAS was a massive improvement upon RSE and arguably it's also an improvement (graphically) on XY.

Overall, if you look at ORAS compared to RSE it is a vast improvement, I don't miss the Battle Frontier in all honesty, I still replay Emerald and I still don't get very far within the Frontier - it doesn't interest me hugely. Although, it would have been nice to see, but personally I don't think we're missing a great deal. Alternatively, you can compare XY to ORAS, which you do see some differences, ORAS losing the ability to customise clothing. But the things that annoy me most about XY? The constant "update your PSS profile" "check out wondertrade!", that was stopped in ORAS. The movement, in XY you could move in a defined grid - ORAS you don't! I love that.

I just feel that people are dismissing or unhappy with things in ORAS that doesn't really improve your gameplay, yes you were able to customise your player or do nice graphical things. But ORAS refined everything in terms of gameplay and made it much more fluid and nicer. It introduced Hoenn to an entirely new Generation and improved all of my favourite Pokemon.

That's true, they did improve upon the old things in the games. It just doesn't have much replay-ability unlike FrLG and HgSs did...well this whole gen thus far has lacked that...

BettyNewbie March 14th, 2015 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655734)
Two Gengars are harder than everything Poison-type you could throw at the player in RBY, plus Koga was that gen's Poison specialist.

Gengar may be a strong Pokémon, but fighting them over and over again is simply boring and doesn't reflect all that well on Agatha as a trainer, to be honest.

While she didn't have a great selection of Pokémon to work with, they could've done better than give her an awful-mono-Poison team. Ninetales has always been able to learn Ghost moves, and it's based on a legend associated with ghosts and witches, so why couldn't she have had one? And, in the games, themselves, Marowak is closely associated with the dead, and it's pre-evo can even be found in Pokémon Tower, so why not also give her one of those? I'd also throw in a Hypno, as it's a hypnotizer (an ability associated with ghosts back then) and is kind of creepy, in general. Now, her team would be Ninetales/Golbat/Marowak/Hypno/Gengar, which still keeps the "Ghost" theme and isn't nearly as boring or painfully easy to fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655734)
Of course, in GSC you have dupes, but GSC has more specialists than types, and no Ground-type specialist.

Yeah, that was sadly unavoidable, especially since they refused to give us a Ground E4 for whatever reason. Plus, GSC's E4 was one of the worst ever. Will was a horrid excuse for a Psychic trainer and E4 member in general, Bruno was as pointless and weak as ever, and Lance, bless him, was just a Poor Predictable Rock (a Kadabra with Ice/Thunderpunch could nuke him). Only Koga and Karen were any decent and even they had flaws (such as using weak, underpowered Pokémon like Ariados and Murkrow).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655734)
In general the games without two regions don't have dupes

But, at the cost of having more limited postgames.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adameastment (Post 8655774)
When playing XY/ORAS for the first time, being able to use an EXP share that will apply to all members rather than just the first was a massive improvement. For the first time playing a Pokemon game I was able to built an entirely balanced team and actually properly get to know lots of different Pokemon. In that respect, I think that ORAS (and by extension XY) have done a great deal to improve the enjoyment of the game for those players who either don't have a huge amount of time or (like me) find it a monotonous task and would rather just be able to switch between different pokes. I loaded my original Ruby game the other day and attempted Norman's gym, couldn't beat him with my Combusken and that was my only real choice to use - frustrating.

Well, that's a big reason why remakes exist in the first place, to fix the flaws of the originals. ORAS did a decent enough job of that, although they could've stood to include more Emerald features (such as the stronger Gym Leader teams and Gym Leader rematches).

Quote:

Originally Posted by adameastment (Post 8655774)
I do agree that occasionally Game Freak can make things a little odd, like has been mentioned the E4 was almost exactly the same in terms of typings and that kinda thing. Which I agree was a bit odd considering the Pokes available within game, and it seemed to be overlooked when you actually stop and think about it.

As I said, the Hoenn E4 just wasn't thought out well at all. I guess since they were the first non-Indigo E4, it's not too surprising, but they could've been better. Of all the types that were available, why use ones that had already been used by E4 members in RBY/GSC? Especially, when said type had next-to-no representation in Hoenn? (*cough*Glacia*cough*)

Quote:

Originally Posted by adameastment (Post 8655774)
I don't miss the Battle Frontier in all honesty, I still replay Emerald and I still don't get very far within the Frontier - it doesn't interest me hugely.

I find it to be overrated, myself. The AI cheats, it's hard to beat without "good" (read. bred and EV-d) Pokémon, and it (along with the other battle facilities) just doesn't offer much at all for people who aren't into competitive battling. I would've much rather gotten some actual exploration areas instead of XY's battle facility, though.

Cerberus87 March 14th, 2015 7:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655927)
Gengar may be a strong Pokémon, but fighting them over and over again is simply boring and doesn't reflect all that well on Agatha as a trainer, to be honest.

It depends. If they have different movesets, they can serve different purposes. Lance's three Dragonites in GSC each had a different elemental move, and the L50 one was the only one of them to have Outrage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655927)
While she didn't have a great selection of Pokémon to work with, they could've done better than give her an awful-mono-Poison team. Ninetales has always been able to learn Ghost moves, and it's based on a legend associated with ghosts and witches, so why couldn't she have had one? And, in the games, themselves, Marowak is closely associated with the dead, and it's pre-evo can even be found in Pokémon Tower, so why not also give her one of those? I'd also throw in a Hypno, as it's a hypnotizer (an ability associated with ghosts back then) and is kind of creepy, in general. Now, her team would be Ninetales/Golbat/Marowak/Hypno/Gengar, which still keeps the "Ghost" theme and isn't nearly as boring or painfully easy to fight.

Yeah but then you complain about Flint despite all of his Pokémon knowing Fire moves... Ideally their teams would be monotype, but Flint's non-Fire Pokémon at least know Fire moves.

That's too varied for an E4 member, BTW. Hypno has no relation to ghosts in Pokémon lore, and Marowak doesn't have any ghostly moves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655927)
Yeah, that was sadly unavoidable, especially since they refused to give us a Ground E4 for whatever reason. Plus, GSC's E4 was one of the worst ever. Will was a horrid excuse for a Psychic trainer and E4 member in general, Bruno was as pointless and weak as ever, and Lance, bless him, was just a Poor Predictable Rock (a Kadabra with Ice/Thunderpunch could nuke him). Only Koga and Karen were any decent and even they had flaws (such as using weak, underpowered Pokémon like Ariados and Murkrow).

Will has more personality than all of the Hoenn E4! He uses unusual, out of the box Psychic-types. He isn't too strong, but his teams have character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655927)
But, at the cost of having more limited postgames.

I'd argue there's more to do in B2W2's postgame than in GSC Kanto.

BettyNewbie March 14th, 2015 8:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655952)
It depends. If they have different movesets, they can serve different purposes. Lance's three Dragonites in GSC each had a different elemental move, and the L50 one was the only one of them to have Outrage.

Big whoop. Doesn't matter when they're all outsped and KO-ed with Ice Punch. :rolleyes2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655952)
Yeah but then you complain about Flint despite all of his Pokémon knowing Fire moves... Ideally their teams would be monotype, but Flint's non-Fire Pokémon at least know Fire moves.

As bad as Flint's DP team was, giving him non-Fire types was still better than giving him something like Ponyta/Ponyta/Rapidash/Rapidash/Infernape (which is what he undoubtedly would've had if DP had been an earlier Generation).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655952)
That's too varied for an E4 member, BTW. Hypno has no relation to ghosts in Pokémon lore, and Marowak doesn't have any ghostly moves.

Both things are also true for Arbok, you know.

If you're not going to put enough Ghosts in the game for a Ghost E4 member to use, nor are you going to allow her to have a varied "spooky-themed" team, then... Just don't have a Ghost E4 member to begin with? It's pretty simple. :rolleyes2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655952)
Will has more personality than all of the Hoenn E4! He uses unusual, out of the box Psychic-types. He isn't too strong, but his teams have character.

What personality? All I saw was this clown in a silly mask who used a bunch of weak Pokémon that I flattened in no time. (I was actually surprised that he wasn't packing the powerhouses known as Unown and Girafarig. :rolleyes2:) Just pitiful, especially coming off of Clair and her Kingdra.

Having more personality than the Hoenn E4 doesn't mean much as they're all just a bunch of cardboard cut-outs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8655952)
I'd argue there's more to do in B2W2's postgame than in GSC Kanto.

If you're a competitive battler, sure.

mew_nani March 14th, 2015 9:08 PM

Betty, concerning you saying that Lance is easy is very subjective. He may be easy to you because you took the time to grind levels and make a counter for him, but when I fought him I barely freaking made it through. Of course that's because my team was in the late 30s-mid 40s level wise and I didn't take the time to grind, but still I barely made it through with the skin of my teeth! It's easy if you meticulously plan around defeating him but if your team isn't overused Pokemon and you don't have a designed counter you're still gonna have some problems. I'm not saying he's easy OR hard; just saying that difficulty is high subjective and dependent on what team you have and what levels your team is at. Obviously it's gonna be a lot harder when your team consists of lesser mons. Come to think of it I don't really see you arguing much about Wallace or Steven despite them specializing in Water and Rock respectively. Sure it's not 3 mons of the same species but their team has shared weaknesses between Pokemon that can easily be exploited.

With that said however this gen is VERY similar to Gen III, and I've noticed Pokemon tends to be quite cyclical. There's an advancement phase where they're testing out new concepts, a more polished phase where they improve upon things and introduce good concepts, and a phase where they leave some previously liked things out and everything goes stale. The first have of Gen IV is very similar to Gen I, where they're testing out new concepts and basically designing an entire engine from scratch, and it tended to be bare bones and have an entire assortment from glitches much like the first gen Pokemon games did. The later half of Gen IV and Gen V is a lot like Gen II where they're taking everything good from the previous games and building up on it, and adding things that generally improve the franchise as a whole, like day/night for Gen II and seasons for Gen V. Gen VI is similar to Gen III in that even though it's polished they removed some things from the previous games while adding nothing in return, and in general it feels stale. Pokemon X and Y didn't have seasons or anything to really make the game immersive, and while they had models the models are lifeless compared to the vibrant animated sprites of Gen V. It's very similar to Gen III where the day/night cycle was cut and Pokemon weren't animated for the most part, where in Crystal they were animated, and until Emerald came along there wasn't really much added to the games even though they were 16-bit and colorful. Pokemon X and Y are a very good example of this, as even though they're pretty, that's all they are; they're pretty stale in comparison to Pokemon Heartgold or Pokemon Black. ORAS I think is like this too; it's a remake but for me it's inadequate due to them leaving things out that should have been there, and having no endgame besides a tiny little island and a small quest to justify you getting Deoxys, and it has similar problems to X/Y in terms of framerate and not properly utilizing the 3D feature.

Cerberus87 March 14th, 2015 9:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
Big whoop. Doesn't matter when they're all outsped and KO-ed with Ice Punch. :rolleyes2:

It would be the same if he had Salamence, Garchomp and Dragonite, like he does in the remakes.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
Both things are also true for Arbok, you know.

Arbok feels random, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
If you're not going to put enough Ghosts in the game for a Ghost E4 member to use, nor are you going to allow her to have a varied "spooky-themed" team, then... Just don't have a Ghost E4 member to begin with? It's pretty simple. :rolleyes2:

Would you rather repeat types? Maybe have a Bug-type E4 with the amazing Beedrill, Butterfree, Parasect, Venomoth, non-STAB Scyther and Pinsir... All of them roasted by Flamethrower. That's no challenge at all. :rolleyes2:

Morty's team in GSC was less varied than Agatha's, but it served its purpose. Even with just the Gastly line, Ghost is a tricky type to get rid of at that point in the game. Alakazam is a double-edged sword because Gengar can fight you back (you don't have access to Psychic early on).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
What personality? All I saw was this clown in a silly mask who used a bunch of weak Pokémon that I flattened in no time. (I was actually surprised that he wasn't packing the powerhouses known as Unown and Girafarig. :rolleyes2:) Just pitiful, especially coming off of Clair and her Kingdra.

Having more personality than the Hoenn E4 doesn't mean much as they're all just a bunch of cardboard cut-outs.

Of course you did, he's supposed to be the easiest of the bunch. I also zapped Lorelei to oblivion with Electric-type Pokémon, doesn't make her bad as her roster gives her personality, she's a beefier Misty like Bruno is a beefier Brock.

I like Will's roster because he deviates from the Psychic-type specialist paradigm that dictates he/she must have Alakazam or something like that. As much as I love Alakazam, it gets boring if all specialists use it (Sabrina and Lucian, for example).

Kingdra is pretty much the only strong Pokémon Clair has, too. Dragonair is decent but more because of its type than its power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
If you're a competitive battler, sure.

The N quest was pretty significant storywise. You can go to the BW early routes, battle the Striaton Trio, explore the water routes west of Nuvema, find the Magma Stone for Heatran, battle Colress one last time, challenge Alder, explore Twist Mountain, capture countless legendaries... This link shows there's far more to do besides PWT and Battle Subway. GSC only had the badges and a silly Rocket quest. HGSS compares far more favorably to B2W2, but still, B2W2 didn't need a second region to have lots of things to do in the postgame.

BettyNewbie March 14th, 2015 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656048)
Betty, concerning you saying that Lance is easy is very subjective. He may be easy to you because you took the time to grind levels and make a counter for him, but when I fought him I barely freaking made it through. Of course that's because my team was in the late 30s-mid 40s level wise and I didn't take the time to grind, but still I barely made it through with the skin of my teeth! It's easy if you meticulously plan around defeating him but if your team isn't overused Pokemon and you don't have a designed counter you're still gonna have some problems. I'm not saying he's easy OR hard; just saying that difficulty is high subjective and dependent on what team you have and what levels your team is at. Obviously it's gonna be a lot harder when your team consists of lesser mons.

Well, that's simply what you get for going in underleveled. :P Even the weakest trainers can easily cream you if they're 10 levels ahead of you.

(What team were you using against him, BTW?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656048)
Come to think of it I don't really see you arguing much about Wallace or Steven despite them specializing in Water and Rock respectively. Sure it's not 3 mons of the same species but their team has shared weaknesses between Pokemon that can easily be exploited.

Wallace was a Water specialist and his team was mono-Water, so he was exactly what you'd expect him to be. Some of them mix things up a little with their secondary typings (Ludicolo isn't weak to any of Water's weaknesses), but no, he's not terribly difficult.

As for Steven, his team isn't actually mono-Steel, but he does, at least, have three unique fully-evolved Steel types, and you actually can't sweep his entire team with only one or two moves. (The non-Steel types and Aggron aren't weak to Fire, the non-Steel types and Skarmory aren't weak to Ground, Skarmory, Claydol, and Metagross aren't weak to Fighting, and so on).

But, Lance? First of all, despite supposedly being a Dragon trainer, his team is actually mono-Flying. Yeah, I know that GSC didn't have many Dragons, but seriously? Couldn't they have found some non-Flying "pseudo-Dragons" to give him? And, what about Kingdra?

Even worse, his entire team is weak to Rock (Charizard 4x), as well as the popular BoltBeam combo (with Gyarados and the Dragonites being 4x weak). The only thing that kept him from being a total pushover was Rock Slide, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt not being readily-available TMs. (And, I say this as someone who otherwise loves his character.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656048)
With that said however this gen is VERY similar to Gen III, and I've noticed Pokemon tends to be quite cyclical. There's an advancement phase where they're testing out new concepts, a more polished phase where they improve upon things and introduce good concepts, and a phase where they leave some previously liked things out and everything goes stale. The first have of Gen IV is very similar to Gen I, where they're testing out new concepts and basically designing an entire engine from scratch, and it tended to be bare bones and have an entire assortment from glitches much like the first gen Pokemon games did. The later half of Gen IV and Gen V is a lot like Gen II where they're taking everything good from the previous games and building up on it, and adding things that generally improve the franchise as a whole, like day/night for Gen II and seasons for Gen V. Gen VI is similar to Gen III in that even though it's polished they removed some things from the previous games while adding nothing in return, and in general it feels stale. Pokemon X and Y didn't have seasons or anything to really make the game immersive, and while they had models the models are lifeless compared to the vibrant animated sprites of Gen V. It's very similar to Gen III where the day/night cycle was cut and Pokemon weren't animated for the most part, where in Crystal they were animated, and until Emerald came along there wasn't really much added to the games even though they were 16-bit and colorful. Pokemon X and Y are a very good example of this, as even though they're pretty, that's all they are; they're pretty stale in comparison to Pokemon Heartgold or Pokemon Black. ORAS I think is like this too; it's a remake but for me it's inadequate due to them leaving things out that should have been there, and having no endgame besides a tiny little island and a small quest to justify you getting Deoxys, and it has similar problems to X/Y in terms of framerate and not properly utilizing the 3D feature.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Very fitting that Gens 2 and 3 were remade when they were, huh? ;)

mew_nani March 14th, 2015 9:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656093)
Well, that's simply what you get for going in underleveled. :P Even the weakest trainers can easily cream you if they're 10 levels ahead of you.

(What team were you using against him, BTW?)

A Lugia, an Ampharos, a Typhlosion, a Gyrados (I think, I can't remember since the battery died some years ago, it might have been a Pidgeot instead), a Togetic, and Rocky the Onix. (Yes, that Onix you get near the start of the game for trading in a Bellsprout.) All from level 35 to 45. In spite of nearly being defeated and having to rely on Lugia most of the time he was defeated and presumably very humiliated. This is for the original Silver by the way; I used a similar team with SoulSilver and didn't have as much trouble. Can't remember if Rocky was still part of the team though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656093)
Wallace was a Water specialist and his team was mono-Water, so he was exactly what you'd expect him to be. Some of them mix things up a little with their secondary typings (Ludicolo isn't weak to any of Water's weaknesses), but no, he's not terribly difficult.

As for Steven, his team isn't actually mono-Steel, but he does, at least, have three unique fully-evolved Steel types, and you actually can't sweep his entire team with only one or two moves. (The non-Steel types and Aggron aren't weak to Fire, the non-Steel types and Skarmory aren't weak to Ground, Skarmory, Claydol, and Metagross aren't weak to Fighting, and so on).

But, Lance? First of all, despite supposedly being a Dragon trainer, his team is actually mono-Flying. Yeah, I know that GSC didn't have many Dragons, but seriously? Couldn't they have found some non-Flying "pseudo-Dragons" to give him? And, what about Kingdra?

Even worse, his entire team is weak to Rock (Charizard 4x), as well as the popular BoltBeam combo (with Gyarados and the Dragonites being 4x weak). The only thing that kept him from being a total pushover was Rock Slide, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt not being readily-available TMs. (And, I say this as someone who otherwise loves his character.)

Lance's team I think weren't designed around Flying types, but rather around things that were designed around dragons. Gyrados is based off the legend of a carp swimming up a waterfall and becoming a dragon, so he gets one. Charizard looks like a dragon and breathes fire like one, so bam, instant team member. Aerodactyl is based off of a pterodactyl, which looks similar to a wyvern, so he gets one. They didn't bother making several different dragons like they should have (Charizard and Gyrados should have been part Dragon from the start) so instead they give him things that look like dragons and say "welp, we're done here." The reason they gave him several different Dragonites was because other than Kingdra (which, come to think of it, really should have been in his roster. Maybe they didn't add it because it looked like a seahorse?) he didn't have access to any other Dragon typed Pokemon. Even so, he's not got a monotype team, which while making it more difficult than him just having all Dragons still makes his Aerodactyl and Charizard stand out like sore thumbs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656093)
Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Very fitting that Gens 2 and 3 were remade when they were, huh? ;)

I'm glad they were; if they were done during Gen VI they would have ruined them. HeartGold and SoulSilver did NOT need to revolve around mega evolution and have their main bad guys changed.

BettyNewbie March 14th, 2015 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656117)
A Lugia, an Ampharos, a Typhlosion, a Gyrados (I think, I can't remember since the battery died some years ago, it might have been a Pidgeot instead), a Togetic, and Rocky the Onix. (Yes, that Onix you get near the start of the game for trading in a Bellsprout.) All from level 35 to 45. In spite of nearly being defeated and having to rely on Lugia most of the time he was defeated and presumably very humiliated. This is for the original Silver by the way; I used a similar team with SoulSilver and didn't have as much trouble. Can't remember if Rocky was still part of the team though.

Yeah... This is where the lack of Ice Beam/Thunderbolt TMs hurt you. Lugia can learn both moves, which would've made it perfect against Lance, but they're only available as a postgame Move Tutor in Crystal. Blizzard and Thunder are available in GS, but they're expensive and very unreliable.

As for the others, Ampharos is good against half of his team, but Typhlosion can't really do anything to his Pokémon, and neither Gyarados or Togetic were good in Gen 2 (the former lacked the P/S Split and the latter lacked its evolution). Rocky might have worked if you had access to Steelix (and a RBY game where it could learn Rock Slide as an Onix).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656117)
Lance's team I think weren't designed around Flying types, but rather around things that were designed around dragons. Gyrados is based off the legend of a carp swimming up a waterfall and becoming a dragon, so he gets one. Charizard looks like a dragon and breathes fire like one, so bam, instant team member. Aerodactyl is based off of a pterodactyl, which looks similar to a wyvern, so he gets one. They didn't bother making several different dragons like they should have (Charizard and Gyrados should have been part Dragon from the start) so instead they give him things that look like dragons and say "welp, we're done here." The reason they gave him several different Dragonites was because other than Kingdra (which, come to think of it, really should have been in his roster. Maybe they didn't add it because it looked like a seahorse?) he didn't have access to any other Dragon typed Pokemon. Even so, he's not got a monotype team, which while making it more difficult than him just having all Dragons still makes his Aerodactyl and Charizard stand out like sore thumbs.

Oh, Lance's Pokémon were definitely meant to be dragons, but GF inadvertently ended up giving him a mono-Flying team. (And, one that was all Gen 1 Pokémon at that, despite him being one of the few E4 members/Champions to be canonically from Johto.) So what, if Kingdra's a seahorse, it's still a Dragon type. And, what about Ampharos (Japanese name means "electric dragon," and Lance had one in the TCG) or Steelix (giant snake, could always learn Dragonbreath, and Lance had one in Stadium 2)? They could've done way better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656117)
I'm glad they were; if they were done during Gen VI they would have ruined them. HeartGold and SoulSilver did NOT need to revolve around mega evolution and have their main bad guys changed.

I take it you're not a fan of those changes? :P (Trust me, I'm a little iffy about Hoenn's plot being altered to revolve around Mega Evolution, myself.)

mew_nani March 14th, 2015 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656147)
Yeah... This is where the lack of Ice Beam/Thunderbolt TMs hurt you. Lugia can learn both moves, which would've made it perfect against Lance, but they're only available as a postgame Move Tutor in Crystal. Blizzard and Thunder are available in GS, but they're expensive and very unreliable.

As for the others, Ampharos is good against half of his team, but Typhlosion can't really do anything to his Pokémon, and neither Gyarados or Togetic were good in Gen 2 (the former lacked the P/S Split and the latter lacked its evolution). Rocky might have worked if you had access to Steelix (and a RBY game where it could learn Rock Slide as an Onix).

I can't really remember their movesets well, but I don't think any of them had an Ice type move (I could be wrong, it was years ago.) I was still outleveled and outsped badly, even with the aid of Lugia. The battle amounted to "use revive, use Sandstorm, use revive, use Recover, hope for an opening and take advantage of it." I did eventually win though, and it was awesome. It was funny, as my Ampharos still wasn't over level 40 at the end of it.

As for using the Pokemon I did, I just liked them and used them because of that. I always liked Togetic, and even beat the Elite Four with one playing SoulSilver even though I didn't have access to its evolution yet (thanks Extrasensory!) Rocky though was stuck as an Onix the whole time because while I have Red and Blue in addition to Silver I lacked two Game Boys and a Link Cable for said Game Boys, making his evolution impossible. Still he wasn't too bad, as he was a very good wall and had Sandstorm to boot.

As for unfavorable matchups, it's not the worst one ever. Heck I almost soloed Giovanni with a Butterfree once. I regret nothing. I really should train Venomoth more though. I've only used it once, and it's a decent enough Pokemon that learns Psychic naturally despite being a Poison type.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656147)
Oh, Lance's Pokémon were definitely meant to be dragons, but GF inadvertently ended up giving him a mono-Flying team. (And, one that was all Gen 1 Pokémon at that, despite him being one of the few E4 members/Champions to be canonically from Johto.) So what, if Kingdra's a seahorse, it's still a Dragon type. And, what about Ampharos (Japanese name means "electric dragon," and Lance had one in the TCG) or Steelix (giant snake, could always learn Dragonbreath, and Lance had one in Stadium 2)? They could've done way better.

That actually would have been a good curveball if he had an Ampharos. Your ice and lightning attacks aren't gonna do much to that thing. Oh the missed opportunities... I dunno about him having a Steelix though. Thing doesn't exactly scream "dragon", and it's not too hard to take down if you have Surf, which you probably would have on you at that point. Either way he could have subbed at least one Dragonite out for another Pokemon. At least they each had different movesets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656147)
I take it you're not a fan of those changes? :P (Trust me, I'm a little iffy about Hoenn's plot being altered to revolve around Mega Evolution, myself.)

That's a very lengthy conversation for another thread. I'll just leave it at I didn't even play the demo they handed out. I can't even bear to watch a walkthrough. They changed too many things. :(

minecraftprosick March 15th, 2015 7:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altairis (Post 8621686)
Well, I guess it can be said this because after a while the same formula DOES get old, even if ORAS specifically wasn't designed to bring many new things to the table. At its core, the game is basically is the same as every other Pokemon game, with some shiny new features. I really like several of the ORAS-specific features, such as the DexNav and Soaring, but given Nintendo's pattern of keeping larger features specific to the game they were introduced in (such as walking Pokemon in HGSS, character customization in XY, with the exception of Pokemon Amie), it's likely that these features won't be in the next Pokemon game. I mean, even if these WERE in the next game, it would just become repetitive and everything would be the same except for a few small characters, plot, and location.

Don't get me wrong, I love ORAS. But maybe the sales are just falling because the basics are the same: 8 gyms, elite four, only some post game. In the end, though, Pokemon will still get money regardless of how "good" the games actually are.

I do think it just repeats. Every Pokemon game is the same, but in a different region and the same storyline but with a different enemy name.

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 8:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
I can't really remember their movesets well, but I don't think any of them had an Ice type move (I could be wrong, it was years ago.) I was still outleveled and outsped badly, even with the aid of Lugia. The battle amounted to "use revive, use Sandstorm, use revive, use Recover, hope for an opening and take advantage of it." I did eventually win though, and it was awesome. It was funny, as my Ampharos still wasn't over level 40 at the end of it.

As for using the Pokemon I did, I just liked them and used them because of that. I always liked Togetic, and even beat the Elite Four with one playing SoulSilver even though I didn't have access to its evolution yet (thanks Extrasensory!) Rocky though was stuck as an Onix the whole time because while I have Red and Blue in addition to Silver I lacked two Game Boys and a Link Cable for said Game Boys, making his evolution impossible. Still he wasn't too bad, as he was a very good wall and had Sandstorm to boot.

Yeah, you could've stood to do more grinding. Ampharos shouldn't have had a hard time with Gyarados, Aerodactyl, and Charizard at all.

As I said, it's a shame that Ice Beam wasn't a TM in this Gen, because that really put a crimp on what you could use as an Ice attacker. (It actually forced you to use *gasp* actual Ice types!) Assuming that you had no trading access, Ice Punch was a TM (and still a Special move), so Kadabra and Slowbro made good use of it. You could've also tried a Nidoroyal or Golduck for something a little less conventional. Jynx got it naturally and off of a solid 115 Special Attack if you wanted to go that way.

As for Ice Beam, your only options without RBY tradebacks or Crystal were Dewgong (L43), Lapras (L36), and Octillery (L54). Dewgong is pretty awful, and Remoraid isn't exactly the easiest Pokémon to find, so Lapras is probably the best one (although Octillery does have a better Sp. Attack and wider natural movepool).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
As for unfavorable matchups, it's not the worst one ever. Heck I almost soloed Giovanni with a Butterfree once. I regret nothing. I really should train Venomoth more though. I've only used it once, and it's a decent enough Pokemon that learns Psychic naturally despite being a Poison type.

Yeah, Venomoth has always been one of those Pokémon that most people overlook. Bug and Poison types have never had a good reputation, and unlike Butterfree and friends, you usually don't get Venomoth until you already have access to a bunch of stronger things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
That actually would have been a good curveball if he had an Ampharos. Your ice and lightning attacks aren't gonna do much to that thing. Oh the missed opportunities...

Exactly. His team would've improved tenfold if he ditched the dupe Dragonites for Kingdra and Ampharos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
That's a very lengthy conversation for another thread. I'll just leave it at I didn't even play the demo they handed out. I can't even bear to watch a walkthrough. They changed too many things. :(

While the last thing I would've wanted was for ORAS to be a glorified enhanced port like FRLG was, I don't think that retconning Hoenn's story to revolve around Mega Evolution was the smartest move on GF's part. (Really, I hope the story part of Mega Evolution is downplayed a lot next Gen. I don't think Megas aren't the worst thing ever, but c'mon, this isn't Digimon.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by minecraftprosick (Post 8656608)
I do think it just repeats. Every Pokemon game is the same, but in a different region and the same storyline but with a different enemy name.

I long for nothing more than for GF to throw a curveball. Just about every non-remake game released since RS has followed that same formula, with only BW/2 shaking it up a little. It's gotten very stale and tiring, IMO.

Nah March 15th, 2015 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656686)

While the last thing I would've wanted was for ORAS to be a glorified enhanced port like FRLG was, I don't think that retconning Hoenn's story to revolve around Mega Evolution was the smartest move on GF's part. (Really, I hope the story part of Mega Evolution is downplayed a lot next Gen. I don't think Megas aren't the worst thing ever, but c'mon, this isn't Digimon.)

Funny thing is that they didn't have to make Mega Evolution a main story point in ORAS if they didn't write themselves into a corner by making Mega Evolution seem to be a Kalos-only thing in X/Y. But apparently they weren't really thinking ahead. Clearly it's a feature that's here to stay in Pokemon, but when you introduce it as something only happening in one region, but then include it in another....woops.

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 2:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8656821)
Funny thing is that they didn't have to make Mega Evolution a main story point in ORAS if they didn't write themselves into a corner by making Mega Evolution seem to be a Kalos-only thing in X/Y. But apparently they weren't really thinking ahead. Clearly it's a feature that's here to stay in Pokemon, but when you introduce it as something only happening in one region, but then include it in another....woops.

Yet again, poor writing in XY is the culprit. :rolleyes2:

A part of me feels like GF used ORAS as a substitute for a XY Third Version or prequel/sequel, because the entire point of making Mega Evolution such a huge part of Hoenn's story (especially in the Delta Episode) seems to serve no other purpose than to tie up loose ends in XY and patch up any poor, inconsistent writing (aka. what Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 did). I hope this doesn't mean that Gen 6 will end with just XY and ORAS, but this, combined with Masuda's comments about doing a XY Third Version or sequel, makes it seem likely. :sideways:

Cerberus87 March 15th, 2015 5:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8657191)
Yet again, poor writing in XY is the culprit. :rolleyes2:

A part of me feels like GF used ORAS as a substitute for a XY Third Version or prequel/sequel, because the entire point of making Mega Evolution such a huge part of Hoenn's story (especially in the Delta Episode) seems to serve no other purpose than to tie up loose ends in XY and patch up any poor, inconsistent writing (aka. what Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 did). I hope this doesn't mean that Gen 6 will end with just XY and ORAS, but this, combined with Masuda's comments about doing a XY Third Version or sequel, makes it seem likely. :sideways:

IMO it's ORAS that creates the problems, not XY. The timeline was just fine with XY being ahead of B2W2, but they had to make ORAS and fuck it up with alternate timeline BS.

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8657411)
IMO it's ORAS that creates the problems, not XY. The timeline was just fine with XY being ahead of B2W2, but they had to make ORAS and psyduck it up with alternate timeline BS.

Let's face it though... even if ORAS didn't focus around Mega Evolution we would still have Pokemon being able to Mega Evolve outside of Kalos, around a decade earlier, for no explainable reason, and we would still have mega stones like Diancite vanishing off the face of the earth. ORAS just made the problems more obvious by centering the entire story around Mega Evolution (which just shouldn't have been done at all; thank the lord they didn't stick with Groudon and Kyogre devolving instead of reverting) and making the concept first and foremost when it didn't exist at all in RSE. They should have just had time traveling enabled instead of having the two Mega Evolving for no reason other than OMG it looks so cool, the 8 year olds would love it!!!

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 8:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8657411)
IMO it's ORAS that creates the problems, not XY. The timeline was just fine with XY being ahead of B2W2, but they had to make ORAS and **** it up with alternate timeline BS.

Setting XY at the same time as B2W2 was probably not the smartest idea on GF's part if they had been planning ORAS from the beginning. There's a reason why RSE took place at the same time as FRLG instead of during or after GSC; it let GF do a clean reboot instead of mucking up the old timeline and trying to haphazardly explain why Dark and Steel existed in FRLG, yet were "newly discovered" in GSC. (HGSS, of course, finalized this reboot years later by removing any references to Dark and Steel being "newly discovered" from Gen 2's dialog.)

They should've done the same thing with XY, hit the reset button and go all the way back to the beginning of the timeline. Then, ORAS wouldn't have needed to explain away nearly as many inconsistencies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657424)
Let's face it though... even if ORAS didn't focus around Mega Evolution we would still have Pokemon being able to Mega Evolve outside of Kalos, around a decade earlier, for no explainable reason, and we would still have mega stones like Diancite vanishing off the face of the earth. ORAS just made the problems more obvious by centering the entire story around Mega Evolution (which just shouldn't have been done at all; thank the lord they didn't stick with Groudon and Kyogre devolving instead of reverting) and making the concept first and foremost when it didn't exist at all in RSE. They should have just had time traveling enabled instead of having the two Mega Evolving for no reason other than OMG it looks so cool, the 8 year olds would love it!!!

Another member pointed out to me that there are even more severe timeline problems than just the Megas. Unless every single game released from Gen 7 onwards takes place after XY, then the mere addition of new Pokémon causes problems--How come these Pokémon were never seen or heard from in Kalos if they were known about X number of years in the past? Applying gameplay and story segregation can only go so far in these situations, and it would just be ridiculous if the timeline kept resetting itself with every new Gen.

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8657556)
Another member pointed out to me that there are even more severe timeline problems than just the Megas. Unless every single game released from Gen 7 onwards takes place after XY, then the mere addition of new Pokémon causes problems--How come these Pokémon were never seen or heard from in Kalos if they were known about X number of years in the past? Applying gameplay and story segregation can only go so far in these situations, and it would just be ridiculous if the timeline kept resetting itself with every new Gen.

Oh my lord that IS right.... if Gen VII adds new Pokemon, and these Pokemon are obtainable in a DP or Fr/Lg remake, which took place several years before Pokemon X and Y, that means these Pokemon will not exist in the future where X and Y take place without any sort of explanation at all. These future Pokemon will both exist and be nonexistent because they were both already discovered in the past but not discovered in the future!

My god Game Freak you really broke things now. Unless there is some justification for the future Pokemon being missing the whole dang timeline is screwed. Maybe Timeline B is a broken timeline after all. All these temporal paradoxes have got to be doing damage to the timeline.

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 8:45 PM

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Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657561)
Oh my lord that IS right.... if Gen VII adds new Pokemon, and these Pokemon are obtainable in a DP or Fr/Lg remake, which took place several years before Pokemon X and Y, that means these Pokemon will not exist in the future where X and Y take place without any sort of explanation at all. These future Pokemon will both exist and be nonexistent because they both already discovered in the past but not discovered in the future!

My god Game Freak you really broke things now. Unless there is some justification for the future Pokemon being missing the whole dang timeline is screwed. Maybe Timeline B is a broken timeline after all. All these temporal paradoxes have got to be doing damage to the timeline.

Pretty awful isn't it? As much as people complain about there being too many Pokémon, I think people would riot if Gen 7 (or onwards) didn't add any new Pokémon.

As an aside, it's technically Timeline C, as Timeline A is RBY/GSC and Timeline B is RSE/FRLG/DPP/HGSS/BW/B2W2. I've heard talk about Gen 7 being a "return to simplicity," so that could possibly mean a return to either of the older timelines. Doing that, of course, would mean no more remakes for good (although, a DPP or BW/2 one that takes place on the same timeline as RBY/GSC could still potentially work), as well as the possible removal of Mega Evolutions from the games.

Another possible out would be to hit the reset button in Gen 7 with XY prequels that take place at the same time as Gens 1 and 3 (thus, paving the way for Gen 1 remakes) and establish XY as being part of a different timeline from ORAS. It's not a perfect fix, but it cleans things up well enough. (Of course, that could mean, yet, another game that's centered around Mega Evolution...)

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 9:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8657573)
Pretty awful isn't it? As much as people complain about there being too many Pokémon, I think people would riot if Gen 7 (or onwards) didn't add any new Pokémon.

As an aside, it's technically Timeline C, as Timeline A is RBY/GSC and Timeline B is RSE/FRLG/DPP/HGSS/BW/B2W2. I've heard talk about Gen 7 being a "return to simplicity," so that could possibly mean a return to either of the older timelines. Doing that, of course, would mean no more remakes for good (although, a DPP or BW/2 one that takes place on the same timeline as RBY/GSC could still potentially work), as well as the possible removal of Mega Evolutions from the games.

Another possible out would be to hit the reset button in Gen 7 with XY prequels that take place at the same time as Gens 1 and 3 (thus, paving the way for Gen 1 remakes) and establish XY as being part of a different timeline from ORAS. It's not a perfect fix, but it cleans things up well enough. (Of course, that could mean, yet, another game that's centered around Mega Evolution...)

Return to simplicity.... yeah, sure... These games have the most complicated and inconsistent continuity yet, and I wouldn't call them simple by any means.

Problem is, D/P/Pl takes place a couple of months before HG/SS, which takes place 3 years after RSE and Fr/Lg. You can't really have D/P remakes taking place chronologically at the same time as ORAS because Looker would have to be in two places at once, and you can't put B2/W2 at the same time as Gold and Silver because those games took place two years after Black and White, which took place an estimated 2-5 years after Gold and Silver. You'd be circumventing Black and White entirely, which royally screws everything up.

There's just no easy way to fix things other than erasing Pokemon X and Y from continuity, and even then it would be a mess because Zinnia would still be referencing X/Y's lore, and all of Kalos's Pokemon have to come from somewhere. Game Freak wrote themselves into a corner, and we COULD have games from the other timelines except they'd have to include Mega Evolution for continuity's sake (and to avoid the fanbase busting into flames,) and Mega Evolution doesn't exist in Timelines A and B. (I admit that was real silly of me, not taking into place the timeline in which R/B/Y and G/S/C take place in... I wish we'd revisit that timeline sometime in the future.) The only real option is to have remakes that have Mega Evolution in them, and that means possibly adding new Pokemon and having them vanish in the future because they didn't exist when X and Y were made.

It's a dang catch-22, as they're screwed no matter what they do. If they add more Pokemon, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they make remakes, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they omit Mega Evolution they're in trouble, and if they add it they're in trouble. I wish Mega Evolution was never made a story point, because all the problems we're looking at are caused because Mega Evolution only exists in one timeline and does not exist in the others. They should have just made it a minor thing, and even then it would have caused problems because then we'd be asking why the villainous teams never use it.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire March 15th, 2015 10:04 PM

There is an easy fix, bring back the time capsule and have it be exclusive to some regions but not others. Like Gen VII could focus on Time travel and such.

Anyways in the sales department ORAS is still doing pretty well.

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8657615)
There is an easy fix, bring back the time capsule and have it be exclusive to some regions but not others. Like Gen VII could focus on Time travel and such.

Anyways in the sales department ORAS is still doing pretty well.

There's a problem with bringing back the Time Capsule system; in one set of games you'd never be able to complete the Pokedex. This worked for Pokemon Red and Blue because in that timeline Johto was still isolated from Kanto, and those Pokemon hadn't been discovered yet, and as a result you could complete the Pokedex without the Johto species. In Gold and Silver it was stable because while you could send Pokemon backwards you couldn't send newer Pokemon that were beyond Pokedex no. 151, and you couldn't send over any with moves that were nonexistent 3 years ago, thus preventing any kind of paradoxes from happening. This was more for glitch prevention than anything else, but it works continuity-wise too, as the two take place in separate generations and 3 years apart chronologically.

Problem is, if there was a remake of say, Diamond and Pearl, that was made during Gen VII, the new Pokemon would be added to the National Dex of both games for continuity's sake, as you would not be able to fully complete the dex without those additions. The snarl doesn't come from the fact that the Pokemon didn't exist in ORAS; it would make some sense because Diamond and Pearl take place roughly 2 1/2 years later. The problem comes from the fact that X and Y take place several years after Diamond and Pearl, at the same time Black 2 and White 2 were happening. They should have already discovered these Pokemon, but didn't, and since they're in the same continuity as ORAS and the presumed remakes it means these Pokemon that were discovered were forgotten about or vanished entirely. We already have this problem concerning the Mega Evolutions; there's absolutely no excuse why some Mega Evolutions like Mega Pidgeot and Mega Diancie would vanish over the course of 6-8 years. If X and Y took place in the past it would make sense but they don't, and in this case the Time Capsule wouldn't help matters because it's not the past versions that have the problem; it's the future games where these things should exist, but for some reason do not.

In this generation we have two games that takes place in the future (Pokemon X and Y) and two games that take place in the past (ORAS). Since they didn't employ a Time Capsule for those versions, they probably won't implement it in Gen VII.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire March 15th, 2015 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657628)
There's a problem with bringing back the Time Capsule system; in one set of games you'd never be able to complete the Pokedex. This worked for Pokemon Red and Blue because in that timeline Johto was still isolated from Kanto, and those Pokemon hadn't been discovered yet, and as a result you could complete the Pokedex without the Johto species. In Gold and Silver it was stable because while you could send Pokemon backwards you couldn't send newer Pokemon that were beyond Pokedex no. 151, and you couldn't send over any with moves that were nonexistent 3 years ago, thus preventing any kind of paradoxes from happening. This was more for glitch prevention than anything else, but it works continuity-wise too, as the two take place in separate generations and 3 years apart chronologically.

Problem is, if there was a remake of say, Diamond and Pearl, that was made during Gen VII, the new Pokemon would be added to the National Dex of both games for continuity's sake, as you would not be able to fully complete the dex without those additions. The snarl doesn't come from the fact that the Pokemon didn't exist in ORAS; it would make some sense because Diamond and Pearl take place roughly 2 1/2 years later. The problem comes from the fact that X and Y take place several years after Diamond and Pearl, at the same time Black 2 and White 2 were happening. They should have already discovered these Pokemon, but didn't, and since they're in the same continuity as ORAS and the presumed remakes it means these Pokemon that were discovered were forgotten about or vanished entirely. We already have this problem concerning the Mega Evolutions; there's absolutely no excuse why some Mega Evolutions like Mega Pidgeot and Mega Diancie would vanish over the course of 6-8 years. If X and Y took place in the past it would make sense but they don't, and in this case the Time Capsule wouldn't help matters because it's not the past versions that have the problem; it's the future games where these things should exist, but for some reason do not.

In this generation we have two games that takes place in the future (Pokemon X and Y) and two games that take place in the past (ORAS). Since they didn't employ a Time Capsule for those versions, they probably won't implement it in Gen VII.

Right, they should've had it in ORAS for it to have worked. Btw I am the member Betty was talking about who pointed this out.

Anyways this is getting off topic so back to ORAS and 'History' repeating itself. I wouldn't say ORAS are repeating the same path RS had. I say this as unlike RS during Gen III ORAS seems to be more or as popular as the Gen I and II remakes while RS weren't liked by Gen I or II fans as much...or even not at all...

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8657638)
Right, they should've had it in ORAS for it to have worked. Btw I am the member Betty was talking about who pointed this out.

Anyways this is getting off topic so back to ORAS and 'History' repeating itself. I wouldn't say ORAS are repeating the same path RS had. I say this as unlike RS during Gen III ORAS seems to be more or as popular as the Gen I and II remakes while RS weren't liked by Gen I or II fans as much...or even not at all...

Before I finish the argument, they really should have implemented it in X and Y. X and Y should have had all the Mega Evolutions to begin with, with ORAS getting restrictions on which ones they can have. But at this point I don't even think Game Freak cares that much about continuity; they just gotta pump out those yearly Pokemon games, even when the game quality suffers for it.

With that said, I think the dissonance has to do with nostalgia. Back when R/S/E came out most people who played it grew up with R/B/Y and G/S/C, and they didn't like it because it wasn't as good as those games. The kids who grew up with R/S/E though liked it, and as the older fans became more sporadic the demand for an R/S/E remake grew, because they wanted the game they grew up with.

Personally I grew up in the third generation and loved the games to death, and you couldn't get me to play ORAS if you gave me a million dollars. To me, they changed too much of what made the originals great without adding anything in return, ironically much like the third gen games were like in comparison to Gen II.

BettyNewbie March 16th, 2015 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657593)
It's a dang catch-22, as they're screwed no matter what they do. If they add more Pokemon, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they make remakes, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they omit Mega Evolution they're in trouble, and if they add it they're in trouble. I wish Mega Evolution was never made a story point, because all the problems we're looking at are caused because Mega Evolution only exists in one timeline and does not exist in the others. They should have just made it a minor thing, and even then it would have caused problems because then we'd be asking why the villainous teams never use it.

This is one reason why I suspect that ORAS weren't originally planned to be remakes but instead, sequels. If GF knew from the start that they would be remaking RSE in Gen 6, I seriously doubt they would've set XY during B2W2's time.

From where they were going with XY, it would've made far more sense for ORAS to be sequels set during B2W2/XY's time, possibly also paired with a Virtual Console release of RSE. Then, they could've put Megas and Fairies in Hoenn without having to introduce another alternate timeline (which was mostly done in the first place to explain why Megas and Fairies were in Hoenn, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova), and the continuity of the games wouldn't have been nearly as broken.

If this was the case, it's unclear why GF scrapped the sequel plans for a remake (although, the 3DS's issues with emulating GBA games may have been a factor; without RSE fresh in memory and readily available, a sequel couldn't have worked nearly as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657642)
With that said, I think the dissonance has to do with nostalgia. Back when R/S/E came out most people who played it grew up with R/B/Y and G/S/C, and they didn't like it because it wasn't as good as those games. The kids who grew up with R/S/E though liked it, and as the older fans became more sporadic the demand for an R/S/E remake grew, because they wanted the game they grew up with.

Personally I grew up in the third generation and loved the games to death, and you couldn't get me to play ORAS if you gave me a million dollars. To me, they changed too much of what made the originals great without adding anything in return, ironically much like the third gen games were like in comparison to Gen II.

Another big thing that hurt RSE's popularity back in the day was the fact that they had the misfortune to come out right after the Pokémania Fad of the late 90s/early 00s died and a huge anti-Pokémon backlash started to set in. The entire franchise had become radioactive for anyone over the age of 10, which, alas, was how old most of the original fans were by 2002. Kids that age were expected to either move on to "mature" games like GTA or abandon video games altogether. (I, myself, became obsessed with the Sims.) To still be playing Pokémon at the age of 13 was to be wearing a giant "Kick me, I'm a dork!" sign on your back.

It started to change by the late 2000s when Pokémania reached its 10th anniversary and the original fans were all now 17-22 years old (a time when you start to care less about peer pressure and looking "grownup"). People started whipping their old cartridges out and getting nostalgic, and they were eventually rewarded in the form of HGSS. That exact same thing would eventually happen with the younger Gen 3-era fans later on, and ORAS were their reward.

RandomDSdevel March 16th, 2015 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657593)
…Problem is, D/P/Pl takes place a couple of months before HG/SS, which takes place 3 years after RSE and Fr/Lg. …

Actually, I'm pretty sure that D/P/Pt starts after the beginning of HG/SS since the former begins with a TV special showing the events that happen at the Lake of Rage in the latter.

KittiOcelotti March 16th, 2015 12:28 PM

Quote:

Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?
I'm a little late on the pokemon games and still haven't played X/Y and OR/AS yet. I thought that people was going to love OR/AS because it seemed liked a good game with all these new features and stuff. I wasn't that aware of the BC problem in R/S/E because its was my first game, but when I found out, I understood why older fans hated it. From all i've seen and heard from it, people either love it or hate it. Remakes are suppose to make things better, not worse. OR/AS doesn't deserve that much hate, at least not from the R/S/E fans. I think that the Dex Nav was a good feature, but the Pokemon News was completely useless. There is a feature that Even lets you can even trade pokemon from R/S/E!!

Quote:

ORAS made me realize that the Pokemon fanbase is really bad in general. It's actually related to the new Megas and not to the battle frontier.

Back when GameFreak announced that Gen 3 was going to have remakes, everyone was so excited, like I remember going on Pokemon Showdown and see lots of joke teams that featured 6 pokemon with Celebrate as their only move and their own alt being something such as "HOENN CONFIRMED" or "GEN 3 CONFIRMED". But now that ORAS is out everyone is complaining.
"WHY DID BEEDRILL, PIDGEOT AND GLALIE GET MEGAS??? WHY AUDINO, WHY SLOWBRO, WHY CAMERUPT, WHY FUCKING LOPUNNY OF ALL THINGS?! WHERE'S MY MEGA FLYGON AND MEGA MILOTIC???"
Yeah. You'll see crap like this on 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs as well as the comments to the official Pokemon videos. I know Pokemon is supposed to be for kids, but I bet most of the users who complained were at least 15. They need to thank GF for actually giving them a goddamn remake and not to act like the German kid we all know and love because they didn't get Mega Flygon. GF knows what's doing and gave mega evolutions both to fan favourites (looking at you, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Blastoise) AND to Pokemon that actually needed them, such as Beedrill, Glalie and Pidgeot. And honestly, they care about you. You wanted Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross? They gave you Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross. You wanted a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria? They gave you a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria. But all the Pokemon fanbase cares about is "WHY WATER/DARK MEGA GYARA, WHY DID GLALIE GET A MEGA AND NOT FROSLASS, HOW COME MEGA FLYGON/MILOTIC IS NOT A THING YET." I even saw some extremist comments such as "I'm done with Pokemon if they don't show us Mega Flygon" or "If Blissey gets a mega I'm gonna quit this game". Not kidding.
Not to mention everytime a powerful Pokemon (Salamence) gets a mega, they scream "WHY DO YOU MAKE OP POKEMON EVEN MORE OP" and when a Pokemon such as Audino gets a mega, they go "WHY FUCKING AUDINO OF ALL THINGS VOLCARONA NEEDS A FUCKING MEGA".
Pokemon like Dragonite didn't get megas

Quote:

I think that most (video game) fanbases have parts like this. They get really vocal about something they want. You give it to them. They get super-excited over news of the announcement of the thing they wanted. Then they bitch and whine about it after release because it didn't quite match every last little detail they wanted. They ask for the devs to innovate and try something new. The devs do that. Then they cry and scream because the devs "ruined" the game and it's "not [insert franchise here] anymore"......as if that's the mature way to do things. As if the game should be made to suit any one person's specific tastes.

Not saying that the entirety of any fanbase is like that, but there's a sizeable chunk of people like that in most of 'em. I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.
That was different for X/Y though

mew_nani March 16th, 2015 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomDSdevel (Post 8658449)
Actually, I'm pretty sure that D/P/Pt starts after the beginning of HG/SS since the former begins with a TV special showing the events that happen at the Lake of Rage in the latter.

I was led to believe it starts a few months before, as you can run into Jasmine in Sunnyshore, and the Red Gyarados broadcast was removed in Platinum and replaced with a report that Professor Rowan has returned from Kanto. Bulbapedia seems undecided on it, as supposedly the games are taking place at the same time, but Jasmine's dialogue sounds like she came there after HG/SS. The only thing that seems to be clear is that both games take place close together.

As for the Mega Evolutions... well it does seem strange that there's not very many new evolutions for Hoenn Pokemon. Instead they're for Pokemon obtainable in the Kalos region like Pidgeot and Beedrill. You'd figure there'd be some Mega Evolutions for more Hoenn Pokemon that can easily be found there, not Kalos natives.

Margaery Tyrell March 22nd, 2015 11:30 AM

That's kinda just how fandoms are, if there is a flaw or something a select group of people don't like, then it will be criticized and whatever they're complaining about will (not always, sometimes it really can be that bad) be exaggerated.

Pinkie-Dawn March 25th, 2015 3:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minecraftprosick (Post 8656608)
I do think it just repeats. Every Pokemon game is the same, but in a different region and the same storyline but with a different enemy name.

What about Mario and Zelda? Both series follow the same structure (former has you travel through 8 exotic worlds plus an extra one after beating the game, and the latter has you exploring 7-8 dungeons, collect the items within each of them, and obtaining the master sword after the first three dungeons). It's the content that makes each installment unique, and Pokemon is no different.

Orithan March 25th, 2015 5:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8673218)
What about Mario and Zelda? Both series follow the same structure (former has you travel through 8 exotic worlds plus an extra one after beating the game, and the latter has you exploring 7-8 dungeons, collect the items within each of them, and obtaining the master sword after the first three dungeons). It's the content that makes each installment unique, and Pokemon is no different.

The point here is that a lot of the fans don't want to see the same formula over and over again. Mario and Zelda have used the same basic formula for each of their games (well, not all of them in the latter; see Four Swords and Four Swords Adventure), just like Pokemon. And just like Pokemon, a lot of fans are getting tired of their formulas. The difference between Zelda and Mario and Pokemon is that the formula is exactly the same in Pokemon (with the slight exception of B/W1) while Zelda and Mario tries to change the formula from time to time.

Pinkie-Dawn March 25th, 2015 6:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orithan (Post 8673350)
The point here is that a lot of the fans don't want to see the same formula over and over again. Mario and Zelda have used the same basic formula for each of their games (well, not all of them in the latter; see Four Swords and Four Swords Adventure), just like Pokemon. And just like Pokemon, a lot of fans are getting tired of their formulas. The difference between Zelda and Mario and Pokemon is that the formula is exactly the same in Pokemon (with the slight exception of B/W1) while Zelda and Mario tries to change the formula from time to time.

By "a lot of fans" you mean the vocal minority/fans who outgrew the series, who are also the same group who'll complain about the changes made to the formula of both Pokemon and other franchises. You've probably heard about the Zelda cycle and criticism towards Super Mario Sunshine before.

Pendraflare March 25th, 2015 6:25 PM

Mario has never really been known for changing its formula much either since it's usually him saving Peach from Bowser, even though I haven't played most of the newest Mario games. But with Pokémon it works because there are new regions and over 700 Pokémon to use at this point.

Orithan March 26th, 2015 1:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8673378)
By "a lot of fans" you mean the vocal minority/fans who outgrew the series, who are also the same group who'll complain about the changes made to the formula of both Pokemon and other franchises. You've probably heard about the Zelda cycle and criticism towards Super Mario Sunshine before.

While saying that they are the vocal minority has some credibility as you can easily look at the sales figures to see that to some extent, but saying that these are all in the "outgrew" crowd is wrong even though there is a lot of those types of the fans. From experience, a lot of the fans I am describing tend to like the spinoffs that were well made (eg. Pokemon Colosseum/XD, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon I and II, even Hyrule Warriors) and main series games that went out of their way to innovate (eg. major 3D Mario games including Sunshine, Ocarina of Time) simply because deviate from the standard formula and hate the main series games that downgraded or removed key design points and/or features already present in earlier games in the series (eg. entirety of Gen III and V Pokemon, Metroid Fusion, DS Zeldas and Skyward Sword) while keeping the same formula. These fans tend to be more mature, reasonable and less biased than the ones who simply outgrew their series regarding their hate.

Also, there is evidence that the so called "vocal minority" might be actually having an effect on the sales. X/Y are the lowest selling main Pokemon games in the series, doing worse than B/W and R/S did despite being more heavily advertised than B/W (from what I can recall anyway). There is evidence to suggest that the age demographic of the people that have been playing the games have changed from school children to teenagers/adults and have easy access to the internet. It is likely that this, compounded with the fallout from Gen V's hate and the Gen VI hate, is part of the reason for the drop in sales. OR/AS are doing well for remakes so far, but that can trail off badly like what happened with X/Y and the series still looks like it is in danger of dying in the next couple of generations if sales don't pick up due being the second consecutive generation of decline.
Changing up the formula might have a huge drop in the sales numbers initially, but this is only temporary if you continue following that formula with further titles. This is demonstrated by the Super Mario Galaxy series, which is well loved by most the fanbase that hasn't grown out of Mario altogether. SMG 1 sold remarkably poorly for a main series game, at about 9mil sales compared to NSMB's 20mil, but then SMG 2 came along and drew much better sales figures, comparable to the rest of the main series titles.

Pinkie-Dawn April 13th, 2015 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orithan (Post 8673841)
While saying that they are the vocal minority has some credibility as you can easily look at the sales figures to see that to some extent, but saying that these are all in the "outgrew" crowd is wrong even though there is a lot of those types of the fans. From experience, a lot of the fans I am describing tend to like the spinoffs that were well made (eg. Pokemon Colosseum/XD, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon I and II, even Hyrule Warriors) and main series games that went out of their way to innovate (eg. major 3D Mario games including Sunshine, Ocarina of Time) simply because deviate from the standard formula and hate the main series games that downgraded or removed key design points and/or features already present in earlier games in the series (eg. entirety of Gen III and V Pokemon, Metroid Fusion, DS Zeldas and Skyward Sword) while keeping the same formula. These fans tend to be more mature, reasonable and less biased than the ones who simply outgrew their series regarding their hate.

Then show me these "mature" fans of which you've speak. If it's somewhere like Reddit, then again, that's still the vocal minority.

Quote:

Also, there is evidence that the so called "vocal minority" might be actually having an effect on the sales. X/Y are the lowest selling main Pokemon games in the series, doing worse than B/W and R/S did despite being more heavily advertised than B/W (from what I can recall anyway). There is evidence to suggest that the age demographic of the people that have been playing the games have changed from school children to teenagers/adults and have easy access to the internet. It is likely that this, compounded with the fallout from Gen V's hate and the Gen VI hate, is part of the reason for the drop in sales. OR/AS are doing well for remakes so far, but that can trail off badly like what happened with X/Y and the series still looks like it is in danger of dying in the next couple of generations if sales don't pick up due being the second consecutive generation of decline.
Where on Earth did you get that information? Last time I heard, X/Y outsold B/W. Keep in mind that Gen VI is still new; it takes time for sales to increase like every Nintendo game. Also, Pokemon X/Y are the highest-rated games in the series so far. If it stayed the same as you've claimed, then the overall score would've been much lower.


Quote:

Changing up the formula might have a huge drop in the sales numbers initially, but this is only temporary if you continue following that formula with further titles. This is demonstrated by the Super Mario Galaxy series, which is well loved by most the fanbase that hasn't grown out of Mario altogether. SMG 1 sold remarkably poorly for a main series game, at about 9mil sales compared to NSMB's 20mil, but then SMG 2 came along and drew much better sales figures, comparable to the rest of the main series titles.
Show me the sales for SM64 and SMS, because comparing SMG to NSMB, both of which are completely different Mario titles, is like comparing apples to oranges. Of course 2D Mario games will outsold 3D Mario games.


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