![]() |
History Repeating?
Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
I haven't really heard ANY negative backlash towards ORAS like this...this post is the first I've heard it. I personally NEVER had any negative feelings towards Hoenn. Yeah I missed character customization, but really, I never cared about compatibility between gen 1 and 2 and Hoenn. It does feel "too easy" in a way, however, I attribute this mostly to Exp share and moveset changes. Movesets in Gen 3 Hoenn were ALOT worse than they are in Gen 6 Hoenn. Personally, ORAS are my favorite Pokemon games, and Ruby/Sapphire are probably the games that have the most nostalgic value for me.
Before you get on me for it, I did play Gen 1 and Gen 2 prior to Gen 3's release. I didn't care at all about trading between the Generations. When I found out there was postgame that allowed you to trade between Ruby/Sapphire and FireRed/LeafGreen, I was celebrating it because it felt like a nice bonus. Game Freak doesn't HAVE to include all the features in all the games. When they bring back a popular feature, we should be celebrating its inclusion, not complaining whenever its absent. Try to have a more positive outlook. :) |
The hate comes from mostly R/S/E fanboys who wanted the remakes to be little more than a port of their nostalgic games to Gen VI plus Battle Frontier and their favorite pokemon getting megas *cough*Milotic and Flygon*cough* and those who want something groundbreaking every title, whereas the bulk of the sales aside from those people I imagine comes from those never played the originals like myself. That's my theory anyway.
I do however think that Pokemon is in some danger of dying considering it has suffered two consecutive generations of decline, but that is for another topic. |
Honestly, who cares?
Fans will complain about anything. The games are a great remake. They stay true to the Hoenn formula and expand upon the story and flesh out characters like Wally and May. Ruby and Sapphire got backlash because older fans couldn't use their Game Boy Pokemon anymore. People complain about Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire because of no battle frontier and lack of trainer customization. People still complain about no Pokemon following you so with that in mind, if someone complains about the series, ignore it. |
For me it's not really an issue, aslong as I'm enjoying playing the games then I'm happy with that. I'll be honest though I haven't heard much negativity surrounding ORAS yet, if anything the reception has been generally positive. The sales figure for the games has already surpassed 9 million, and that's only within 3 months of being on sale.
|
If I want to be honest, I actually view ORAS as a prettied up version of the original RSE. Aside from plotline, the whole place looks like a pure C+P of the original Hoenn in terms of looks and locations. FRLG gets the Sevii Isles, HGSS gets a new Safari Zone and the Pokeathlon and ORAS? Nothing. A whole big cauldron of nothing. No Battle Frontiers, no extra features, and really, the only new feature we got was the Soaring in the Sky feature.
And honestly, that's not even a new thing in Pokemon. We got to fly on the Lati twins at Pokemon Rangers: Guardian Signs. It didn't really hyped me up when the feature was announced, 'cause I've done it before. It's not that special. And also, this is coming from someone whose first game is Sapphire. It feels more like playing RSE all over again, this time with the updated mechanics after Gen 3. Nothing else really special. It kinda disappointed me. I'd play XY all over again than ORAS tbh. |
Quote:
I would've liked real new areas though. Pinkie's post (and his vm to me) are also the first time I hear negative feedback like this. Most of the complaints are due to lack of frontier or any sort of good post Delta Episode stuff. |
I don't really see anything bad with OR/AS because they patched up most issues that happened in the original games, such as movesets, along with easier ways to level up, even if the new Exp. Share eliminates any form of challenge if left on too offten. I didn't mind lack of trainer customization (I already love May's design anyway) or no Battle Frontier, but I do feel for those who did like those features even if there was a statement on Reddit explaining the axing of the Frontier.
Also, these games are doing way better sales-wise than the previous remakes, but then we have the end-of-year holiday season factoring in there. The Delta Episode was also something new in terms of postgame content, because it was an entirely extra story (albeit short) and while soaring on Latias/Latios is almost like what you did flying around with them in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs it still allows you to find and catch legendaries, and a few non-Hoenn Pokemon as well. DexNav was also revolutionary, as well as the ability to now fly to anywhere, including routes. The reason why DexNav is something great about this game that I hope doesn't disappear in the next game is because it made finding hidden abilities and good IV'd Pokemon easier, which is a blessing to competitive players. |
Quote:
The only complaint I've seen was this: 3/10 too much water I think Nintendo has been getting better making the stories ever since BW. XY was fairly solid. I don't like ORAS's story, because I feel like it takes too long for it to develop. With that being said, the Delta Episode was the best thing they've ever done story-wise too. My wish would be for there to be an episode on every single legendary there is. Because I feel like that's been the weakest part in the franchise as far as story telling goes. There will be one plot throughout the game just about the game's respective main legendary. Then nothing about any of the others you can catch. So I think the Delta Episode was a great step in the right direction. We can only hope they build on that. XY made online features completely useable and easy to access. The best part was the character customization just because it feels more rpg like. Everyone can have their own unique identity which is special because all of us are different to begin with. That was such a great feature. I'll let it pass that it didn't happen in ORAS because it is a remake ultimately... That dexnav feature was the best addition overall. Now you have some control as to what you actually can look for. There is just waaaayy too much to analyze. @[email protected] |
Quote:
|
warning I'm about to rant
ORAS made me realize that the Pokemon fanbase is really bad in general. It's actually related to the new Megas and not to the battle frontier. Back when GameFreak announced that Gen 3 was going to have remakes, everyone was so excited, like I remember going on Pokemon Showdown and see lots of joke teams that featured 6 pokemon with Celebrate as their only move and their own alt being something such as "HOENN CONFIRMED" or "GEN 3 CONFIRMED". But now that ORAS is out everyone is complaining. "WHY DID BEEDRILL, PIDGEOT AND GLALIE GET MEGAS??? WHY AUDINO, WHY SLOWBRO, WHY CAMERUPT, WHY FUCKING LOPUNNY OF ALL THINGS?! WHERE'S MY MEGA FLYGON AND MEGA MILOTIC???" Yeah. You'll see crap like this on 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs as well as the comments to the official Pokemon videos. I know Pokemon is supposed to be for kids, but I bet most of the users who complained were at least 15. They need to thank GF for actually giving them a goddamn remake and not to act like the German kid we all know and love because they didn't get Mega Flygon. GF knows what's doing and gave mega evolutions both to fan favourites (looking at you, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Blastoise) AND to Pokemon that actually needed them, such as Beedrill, Glalie and Pidgeot. And honestly, they care about you. You wanted Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross? They gave you Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross. You wanted a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria? They gave you a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria. But all the Pokemon fanbase cares about is "WHY WATER/DARK MEGA GYARA, WHY DID GLALIE GET A MEGA AND NOT FROSLASS, HOW COME MEGA FLYGON/MILOTIC IS NOT A THING YET." I even saw some extremist comments such as "I'm done with Pokemon if they don't show us Mega Flygon" or "If Blissey gets a mega I'm gonna quit this game". Not kidding. Not to mention everytime a powerful Pokemon (Salamence) gets a mega, they scream "WHY DO YOU MAKE OP POKEMON EVEN MORE OP" and when a Pokemon such as Audino gets a mega, they go "WHY FUCKING AUDINO OF ALL THINGS VOLCARONA NEEDS A FUCKING MEGA". |
Quote:
Not saying that the entirety of any fanbase is like that, but there's a sizeable chunk of people like that in most of 'em. I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes. |
Quote:
|
Today people complain about how horrible the games have become and tomorrow they'll buy the new games, anyway. You know, there are some people who can only show appreciation by complaining about what they love and it's not, that Pokemon is the only franchise that's getting that treatment, either.
I say: let the sales decide how good the games are, because numbers don't care about opinions. Quote:
|
You know someone made an excellent point in that the move types were different in the original games than they were currently and I completely forgot about that. So in that respect, yes, I would say the current gen IS easier than the originals because in the originals there were SO many pokemon can couldn't learn STAB attacks because they were physical attackers but all their STAB movesets were special and vice versa. Back then Every fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Dragon and Dark type move was special and every normal, fighting, poison, ground, flying, bug, rock, ghost and steel type move was physical, so there were quite a few pokemon that never got that bonus 50% damage from their movesets so a lot of pokemon back then may have had a harder time going through the game than they do now.
|
Though the enemy's mons would also have had a stab issue, for example Archie's Sharpedo didn't get stab that matches it's better offensive stat as both it's types were special (I also don't think it had any good moves that match it's type type...can't quite recall).
Who knows perhaps three gens from now everyone will be asking for Hoenn re-remakes like Kanto fans are now...though perhaps ORAS will be seen in the same light as the originals were during Gen V (and XY). |
Wait a minute. Let me see if i'm getting this straight.
First in 2003 people hated Ruby and Sapphire then mostly for the fact that it had no backwards compatibility, then in 2011 when Black and White were mainstream people started loving Ruby and Sapphire, and now they call these games the worst in the series? This is news to me, so no, i'm not getting it. Although if nothing else, I think Junichi Masuda's excuse for not putting the Frontier and character customization in the game (and a Challenge Mode for that matter) is one thing that really pissed people off. |
Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire are re-makes of Ruby/Sapphire and Emerald, so what was in them games is pretty much going to be the same in ORAS. So with character customization in XY it's not going to be put into ORAS
|
^ That's kind of a valid point. In thinking about it I doubt that they would want to redesign the original characters out of the outfits they already had. With XY being new games and all it's understandable and hopefully for future games, but not in full-fledged remakes.
|
To be honest, I do miss the character customization feature from X and Y. I'm not too fond of Brendan's outfit but I can deal sheesh.
As for the games being too easy, that's a really naive complaint. The player's choices effect that more than the AI. The Exp. Share is probably the most significant factor affecting my gameplay personally because it quite a bit overtrained me for all the gyms from the point I'd received it forward as I'd leave it on. A Pokemon that out levels a gym leader's or any trainer's for that matter is not going to have too hard a time even with a type disadvantage but type still plays such a role that a single pokemon can be the difference between an easy and a difficult experience. Let's examine my Wattson battle in Alpha Sapphire as an example. Wattson's entire team here has a secondary type of Steel, I'd begun with Torchic, a fire type which evolves with fighting as a secondary type both type advantages to steel. Once again the Exp. Share had me arriving in Mauville about two levels above his strongest Pokemon, as a result of all three of these factors I'd taken his entire team out in under five moves with my Cumbuskin alone. If I'd done a few things differently I can imagine it being a bit more of a difficult battle. Because the Torchic line is pretty useless I have a feeling my Cumbuskin would have fallen very behind in level had I not had that Exp. Share turned on or not received it at all. Just as out levelling your opponent can cancel out a type advantage so is true the vise-versa, an under-leveled Pokemon can also cancel out the opponent's type disadvantage. If I'd played with the same team but had chosen to begin with Treeko, even with the use of the experience share to over level me I might have once again been in trouble because said team did not really have an electric or steel strength and to ice the cake had a fair bit of electric weakness. I could, however, have possibly mimicked my real experience in the hypothetical Treeko scenario with the choice to capture and train a geodude which is immune to electricity. Considering, however that rock is weak to steel that geodude might have still failed had I not used the Exp. Share to over level it. Looking at Liza and Tate now, again my team was over-levelled and I conquered their rock weaknesses rather than psychic with my Superior and Sharpedo. There can be cases of poor execution on the AI's part, I'll admit. Flannery may have had a chance against my over leveled Seaking had she not started out each of her Pokemon using Sunny Day (though not too likely since Princess took them each out with one Water Pulse/Waterfall hehe) and moving down a generation to Soul Silver/Heart Gold Whitney's changed tactic to spamming Stomp instead of Rollout caused her to do a fair bit less damage. With some moves they use it's a case of rolling the dice though. The first time I battled Whitney in SS she never once used Milk Drink but the second time I did when I restarted the game she did once, maybe twice (it's been a while) and might have even used super potions which totally didn't happen the first time. This also leads me to another example of how different choices in Pokemon used can change the experience, the second SS Whitney battle was a bit more daunting than the first without an Impish quagsire to take all the stomps with barely a dent. In the end it's still all about choices even when the AI changes things up on you and with remakes like AS/OR the fact that we know what to expect can also effect those choices or even our perception of the battles. Age can also be a factor because over the years and with each new generation release you learn more. Honestly, it wasn't until I was training a swellow around route 111 where lots of Machop dwell that I discovered by accident that flying moves are super effective against fighting. type Pokemon. Basically, the player makes it easy NOT the developers. |
Well, I guess it can be said this because after a while the same formula DOES get old, even if ORAS specifically wasn't designed to bring many new things to the table. At its core, the game is basically is the same as every other Pokemon game, with some shiny new features. I really like several of the ORAS-specific features, such as the DexNav and Soaring, but given Nintendo's pattern of keeping larger features specific to the game they were introduced in (such as walking Pokemon in HGSS, character customization in XY, with the exception of Pokemon Amie), it's likely that these features won't be in the next Pokemon game. I mean, even if these WERE in the next game, it would just become repetitive and everything would be the same except for a few small characters, plot, and location.
Don't get me wrong, I love ORAS. But maybe the sales are just falling because the basics are the same: 8 gyms, elite four, only some post game. In the end, though, Pokemon will still get money regardless of how "good" the games actually are. |
That's basically true - different games have different features, so it's not likely that we're going to get much of the same small side things in more than one game a lot of the time. If they were, it probably would kill the uniqueness of some of them.
|
To be honest i stopped playing pokemon back in the gold/silver for the game boy color and recently came back to ORAS and I have to say i enjoyed it greatly, I picked up a copy of X and have started playing that as well but I feel i enjoyed playing Alpha saphire more so i might have to give x more time but i can put Alpha down XD
|
I haven't even heard that many people bashing the remakes, to be quite honest. In my own opinion, though, ORAS was a great pair of games that lived up to my expectations, definitely. I think a lot of people had their expectations very high, and were a bit disappointing to see the lack of changes from the originals, which bugs me because it is a remake, by name, and should follow the originals as much as possible. The difficulty didn't affect me, even as someone who plays competitively. Steven was extremely hard to take down, and I had EXP Share on the whole game.
|
ORAS was to me, the worst pokemon games to date. For remakes of Ruby and Sapphire, they were fine but almost every new feature fell short.
1. Secret Bases - I mean, what the heck were they thinking by making the maximum amount of pokemon you could have on your team three?!! Oh and don't even get me started on the whole "you can make your own gym with other trainers in it and you as a gym leader! BUT we're going to make their teams rattatas, pidgeys and caterpies!! Not the teams you want to make your gym theme complete with. Such a wasted potential there and downright lie about what could have made secret bases the best thing in the game. I'm still fuming about that all these months later. 2. No Battle Frontier - This was the biggest disappointment for so many fans of emerald's battle frontier. According to an interview I read with one of the creators of the game, the only reason they didn't put it in was because new and inexperienced players wouldn't be able to beat it or something like that. Also something about strategies needed for each facility would be too complicated. Please, what a lazy cop-out to not put anything extra into the postgame. 3. Soaring - BORING (see what I did there?) 4. No rematches with the gym leaders - Let's allow you to re-battle every trainer except the gym leaders. Sounds like a great idea! You know, they're the strongest people aside from the elite 4, but they aren't really all that important to the story for a simple rematch. Honestly, I would list more, but I'm fearful of all the game's defenders starting a war with me over my opinions. I will say, dex nav is awesome! |
I thought I'd posted in this thread before, but I guess not. So I'll do so now! :)
All in all, there are a lot of factors new to ORAS that change things up significantly, even though it stays reasonably true to the original games. Honestly though, I think they've done very, very well with the re-introduction of Hoenn, and that it absolutely won't follow in the footsteps in the originals as 'the worst (or at least, the least successful) generation of games'. Some of the things introduced, such as Mega Evolution and the renewed EXP share, definitely changed the way the game was played. There's no way around saying that the EXP Share made it substantially easier - I turned it off periodically throughout the game, and managed to be on a par with Steven by the end of the game, but it was hard to find a medium! When it was on, I'd become overlevelled before too long, and while it was off, I'd fall a bit short. It definitely taught me how to better (more enjoyably) utilise the new mechanics of the EXP share. That said, there are some features omitted from ORAS that did leave me a little disappointed, such as the lack of an ability to customise your character. Plenty of people (even in this thread) have reasonably argued that the feature was present in XY because they were new games, but even so, I would've liked to at least be able to change the CLOTHES of my character, if not the hairstyle, etc. Although it did bring me back into that feeling I love from Pokémon games, setting up a canon, and whatnot. I do agree with points 2 and 4 raised by Birthday Thunder above, though; people have argued the lack of a Battle Frontier with "It wasn't in the original games, so it won't be in the remakes.", and I honestly don't know what those people are thinking. To HELL with that! There are plenty of things that weren't in the originals - one of the major things wrong with FRLG was sticking with that sentiment, omitting features that could simply add to the renewed world. If ORAS left out Mega Evolution throughout the story, it would've been quite boring. But look what they did! They introduced it, and not only that, gave you access to a Lati mid-story. That was great! I mean, the Battle Resort Island is nice and all, but the fact that it's still a Battle Maison sorta bugs me a bit. I would've liked it to be a Battle Tower again, although to be quite fair, I see why that's hard to reintroduce. The Maison made it super fast to blast through loads of battles, quitting whenever you want. A tower makes it harder, and would require more cutscenes and so on. Though even with all this in mind, I still would've loved to have played through a modernised Battle Frontier. It was a really fun post-game feature of Hoenn's, so it's a shame they left it out. As well as that, the rematch feature of the Pokénav+ was greeeeeeeeat, but the fact that they plain just didn't let you rematch the gym leaders also sucked. Sure, another feature introduced in Emerald, but one that positively influenced the game, literally no reason to leave it out in ORAS (HGSS did it, even though it wasn't in the originals, so nobody start with that! :P). Despite its few lackings, I really think ORAS pulled out all the stops, or at least most of them, and was a great playing experience. I've been tempted to get AS just so I can play the story mode a couple more times! |
Quote:
|
So Bulbapedia has posted an article regarding the criticisms of ORAS, and I thought I would like to share it with you guys: http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Omega_Ruby_and_Alpha_Sapphire:_A_retrospective_review
|
Quote:
OR/AS were the best in the series so far, although the lack of battle frontier was annoying and the mega evolutions were shoehorned into the game awkwardly. I think the real issue what that HG/SS felt like they had all the features of Crystal just split into two games. Meanwhile OR/AS are much more based on R/S than E. Some of the touches that made emerald really special are absent, although all the new features that subsequent games past emerald brought make it a more even, if less cohesive, experience. Really ORAS feels like a real follow up to X/Y rather than a R/S remake, basically using the same wireframe but building the game from the ground up. It really feels like the first remake that doesn't replace the original for better or worse in my eyes. |
Quote:
Quote:
|
The Pokémon main series formula: New region, new Pokémon, 8 badges, E4 and a champion, crime syndicate team.
I got no problem with them, in fact I enjoy it a lot. I love how they can make a new plot while blending in the formula. :) As for the games becoming more easier? That was actually verified by one of the Game Freak staff (go Google the interview article yourself). The reason for making the games easier because Pokémon is facing more and more challenges nowadays, challenges including from fellow handheld Nintendo games to free cellphone/tablet games etc. Hence the introduction of Horde Encounters and Super Training for easier EV training, Friend Safari and PokeNav encounter, easier breeding mechanics (Destiny Knot-breeding, female Pokémon being able to pass egg moves, male Pokémon passing HAs, etc.), easy level up techniques: instant rematch from Trainers Eye in OrAs/Battle Chateau in XY, easier access to Lucky Eggs and the change with Exp. Share. And more. So the games are made easier to attract more casual players, more diverse group ages. |
Quote:
Team Magma/Aqua's appearances were also not very well fleshed out, again another thing fixed up by the remakes. Also, while Hoenn had its negative things it did have its positives, such as the introduction of natures, abilities and a revamped EV system helped build the competitive scene as it's seen today. |
They should've added more water mons to the originals...From Gen I-IV there were issues with species per type diversity. Well Gen I-II's main issue in that regard is that they didn't make many dragons and ghosts... Gen III-IV was not including enough ice, and fire types (among others) from past gens...
|
Oras did a lot of good and amazing things. I mean the intro was so awesome. The dexnav was cool and really usefull. But all these changes makes the game to easy at some point. Even if you don't ev train, use exp share or rebattle trainers every 5 seconds. Most of my pokémon levels were close to steven's levels while I had turned off exp share and I only rebattled the first 2 rich kids for a bit of money. In the originals my pokémons levels were mostly of the time below level 50 when reaching the e4.
Not to mention you just get latios/latias handed out to you. That is just stupid and not only that you get his mega right away. The lati's should have remained post-game and make a side quest to get the mega stone and the flute so you can soar with him. But cathing the lati's should have remained the same as in the originals. And it would be cool if you could soar with every pokémon that knows fly. Just make it a big black bird or something but some things can only be reached with the lati's. No battle frontier also sucks. I was really looking forward for the battle frontier and was really dissapointed by this. The fact that oras brought a lot of new features to the table was good. Most noteable is flying to every route and the dex nav. But Compared to HG/SS I think they could have done better. The only thing I didn't like in hg/ss is that red had lapras in stead of espeon. And that you couldn't get the elemental punches early. Oras new features are really good but I still find the game lacking and I hope if they ever remake gen 4 they remake everything and don't screw something up. |
Quote:
The lack of Ice-type is understandable considering Hoenn's a tropical region. It's just weird to see the likes of Dewgong, Sneasel, Cloyster, etc. getting stuffed in that Shoal Cave. Fire-types were on the right amount. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
yeah i honestly find it so weird that they removed customization?!? it better be back in the next games lol
|
Quote:
(That is how we ended up with so many Dragon specialists that didn't have full teams or even actual Dragon types, for example. Storywise, Dragons are supposed to be rare, so there are fewer of them, but gameplay-wise, that leads to things like Lance having to fill space with dupe Dragonairs... Or, with dupe Dragonites.) Everything about the Hoenn E4, in general, was poorly thought-out, though. They were our first non-Indigo E4, and yet, they all used types that Indigo Elites had previously used, as if they were meant to be substitutes for them in the same way that Beautifly was meant to be a substitute for Butterfree. (Drake was even the 4th one, just like Lance!) Oh, why couldn't have Glacia been a Grass specialist, instead? We also had enough for a Ground E4 as well. Even better, why not have the Hoenn E4 do something else, like have color-based teams or dual-specialities (possibly even in double battle form)? Since they were the first non-Indigo E4, the Hoenn Elites would've been a perfect opportunity to mix things up and do something a little different with the League. |
Quote:
Of course, in GSC you have dupes, but GSC has more specialists than types, and no Ground-type specialist. In general the games without two regions don't have dupes (which is somewhat of a drawback of GSC). |
I don't like threads like this, RSE and now ORAS are quite honestly - my favourite games to date. I love everything about them, even when I sold my Gameboy Advance and games, I kept the Pokemon Games just to continue playing them. I was literally in it for a generation (picking up Gold at one point) then leaving the Pokéfandom :P.
When playing XY/ORAS for the first time, being able to use an EXP share that will apply to all members rather than just the first was a massive improvement. For the first time playing a Pokemon game I was able to built an entirely balanced team and actually properly get to know lots of different Pokemon. In that respect, I think that ORAS (and by extension XY) have done a great deal to improve the enjoyment of the game for those players who either don't have a huge amount of time or (like me) find it a monotonous task and would rather just be able to switch between different pokes. I loaded my original Ruby game the other day and attempted Norman's gym, couldn't beat him with my Combusken and that was my only real choice to use - frustrating. I do agree that occasionally Game Freak can make things a little odd, like has been mentioned the E4 was almost exactly the same in terms of typings and that kinda thing. Which I agree was a bit odd considering the Pokes available within game, and it seemed to be overlooked when you actually stop and think about it. But, I do think that both times the games have been released, they've added elements that allow for people to enjoy the game more. RSE had it in better colour than the GBC, it introduced new stuff like better berries, contests, different elements like the Pokemon being able to look cool and that kind of thing. In ORAS, we've got the DexNav allowing the playing to gain egg moves on Pokemon and being able to find Pokes with their hidden ability, ultimately allowing more variation within teams, and once the players knew what they were doing allow them to build more complex and diverse teams. The biggest issue I have, is that you effectively need 2 games of the 4 currently released this generation and then trade to get the Pokemon you need. I know this has basically been the case since DPPl, but when every generation's box legends and side legends can be obtained with 2 games (using the GTS to get their opposites) or using Bank and owning both games it does make it a bit easier to complete the pokedex. It makes you question Game Freak's reasoning for it, I know for some who don't have the cash to spend on the games it's more difficult, but modern technology makes everything so much easier and less social (although, internet use isn't Game Freaks fault - everyone uses it). The whole [email protected] argument though, making it so it joins your team and you don't have to chase it to capture it (imo) is great. The entire faff of having to chase it down around the map is ridiculous, I'd had enough of it in GSC/HGSS when I replayed those games and had to catch Entei and Raikou. The idea of getting the other one through an event/streetpass is also great. Then having an actual battle, also great. Also being able to fly from a city to a specific route is amazing, a definitely improvement. Ultimately, ORAS was a massive improvement upon RSE and arguably it's also an improvement (graphically) on XY. Overall, if you look at ORAS compared to RSE it is a vast improvement, I don't miss the Battle Frontier in all honesty, I still replay Emerald and I still don't get very far within the Frontier - it doesn't interest me hugely. Although, it would have been nice to see, but personally I don't think we're missing a great deal. Alternatively, you can compare XY to ORAS, which you do see some differences, ORAS losing the ability to customise clothing. But the things that annoy me most about XY? The constant "update your PSS profile" "check out wondertrade!", that was stopped in ORAS. The movement, in XY you could move in a defined grid - ORAS you don't! I love that. I just feel that people are dismissing or unhappy with things in ORAS that doesn't really improve your gameplay, yes you were able to customise your player or do nice graphical things. But ORAS refined everything in terms of gameplay and made it much more fluid and nicer. It introduced Hoenn to an entirely new Generation and improved all of my favourite Pokemon. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
While she didn't have a great selection of Pokémon to work with, they could've done better than give her an awful-mono-Poison team. Ninetales has always been able to learn Ghost moves, and it's based on a legend associated with ghosts and witches, so why couldn't she have had one? And, in the games, themselves, Marowak is closely associated with the dead, and it's pre-evo can even be found in Pokémon Tower, so why not also give her one of those? I'd also throw in a Hypno, as it's a hypnotizer (an ability associated with ghosts back then) and is kind of creepy, in general. Now, her team would be Ninetales/Golbat/Marowak/Hypno/Gengar, which still keeps the "Ghost" theme and isn't nearly as boring or painfully easy to fight. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
That's too varied for an E4 member, BTW. Hypno has no relation to ghosts in Pokémon lore, and Marowak doesn't have any ghostly moves. Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you're not going to put enough Ghosts in the game for a Ghost E4 member to use, nor are you going to allow her to have a varied "spooky-themed" team, then... Just don't have a Ghost E4 member to begin with? It's pretty simple. :rolleyes2: Quote:
Having more personality than the Hoenn E4 doesn't mean much as they're all just a bunch of cardboard cut-outs. Quote:
|
Betty, concerning you saying that Lance is easy is very subjective. He may be easy to you because you took the time to grind levels and make a counter for him, but when I fought him I barely freaking made it through. Of course that's because my team was in the late 30s-mid 40s level wise and I didn't take the time to grind, but still I barely made it through with the skin of my teeth! It's easy if you meticulously plan around defeating him but if your team isn't overused Pokemon and you don't have a designed counter you're still gonna have some problems. I'm not saying he's easy OR hard; just saying that difficulty is high subjective and dependent on what team you have and what levels your team is at. Obviously it's gonna be a lot harder when your team consists of lesser mons. Come to think of it I don't really see you arguing much about Wallace or Steven despite them specializing in Water and Rock respectively. Sure it's not 3 mons of the same species but their team has shared weaknesses between Pokemon that can easily be exploited.
With that said however this gen is VERY similar to Gen III, and I've noticed Pokemon tends to be quite cyclical. There's an advancement phase where they're testing out new concepts, a more polished phase where they improve upon things and introduce good concepts, and a phase where they leave some previously liked things out and everything goes stale. The first have of Gen IV is very similar to Gen I, where they're testing out new concepts and basically designing an entire engine from scratch, and it tended to be bare bones and have an entire assortment from glitches much like the first gen Pokemon games did. The later half of Gen IV and Gen V is a lot like Gen II where they're taking everything good from the previous games and building up on it, and adding things that generally improve the franchise as a whole, like day/night for Gen II and seasons for Gen V. Gen VI is similar to Gen III in that even though it's polished they removed some things from the previous games while adding nothing in return, and in general it feels stale. Pokemon X and Y didn't have seasons or anything to really make the game immersive, and while they had models the models are lifeless compared to the vibrant animated sprites of Gen V. It's very similar to Gen III where the day/night cycle was cut and Pokemon weren't animated for the most part, where in Crystal they were animated, and until Emerald came along there wasn't really much added to the games even though they were 16-bit and colorful. Pokemon X and Y are a very good example of this, as even though they're pretty, that's all they are; they're pretty stale in comparison to Pokemon Heartgold or Pokemon Black. ORAS I think is like this too; it's a remake but for me it's inadequate due to them leaving things out that should have been there, and having no endgame besides a tiny little island and a small quest to justify you getting Deoxys, and it has similar problems to X/Y in terms of framerate and not properly utilizing the 3D feature. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Morty's team in GSC was less varied than Agatha's, but it served its purpose. Even with just the Gastly line, Ghost is a tricky type to get rid of at that point in the game. Alakazam is a double-edged sword because Gengar can fight you back (you don't have access to Psychic early on). Quote:
I like Will's roster because he deviates from the Psychic-type specialist paradigm that dictates he/she must have Alakazam or something like that. As much as I love Alakazam, it gets boring if all specialists use it (Sabrina and Lucian, for example). Kingdra is pretty much the only strong Pokémon Clair has, too. Dragonair is decent but more because of its type than its power. Quote:
|
Quote:
(What team were you using against him, BTW?) Quote:
As for Steven, his team isn't actually mono-Steel, but he does, at least, have three unique fully-evolved Steel types, and you actually can't sweep his entire team with only one or two moves. (The non-Steel types and Aggron aren't weak to Fire, the non-Steel types and Skarmory aren't weak to Ground, Skarmory, Claydol, and Metagross aren't weak to Fighting, and so on). But, Lance? First of all, despite supposedly being a Dragon trainer, his team is actually mono-Flying. Yeah, I know that GSC didn't have many Dragons, but seriously? Couldn't they have found some non-Flying "pseudo-Dragons" to give him? And, what about Kingdra? Even worse, his entire team is weak to Rock (Charizard 4x), as well as the popular BoltBeam combo (with Gyarados and the Dragonites being 4x weak). The only thing that kept him from being a total pushover was Rock Slide, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt not being readily-available TMs. (And, I say this as someone who otherwise loves his character.) Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
As for the others, Ampharos is good against half of his team, but Typhlosion can't really do anything to his Pokémon, and neither Gyarados or Togetic were good in Gen 2 (the former lacked the P/S Split and the latter lacked its evolution). Rocky might have worked if you had access to Steelix (and a RBY game where it could learn Rock Slide as an Onix). Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
As for using the Pokemon I did, I just liked them and used them because of that. I always liked Togetic, and even beat the Elite Four with one playing SoulSilver even though I didn't have access to its evolution yet (thanks Extrasensory!) Rocky though was stuck as an Onix the whole time because while I have Red and Blue in addition to Silver I lacked two Game Boys and a Link Cable for said Game Boys, making his evolution impossible. Still he wasn't too bad, as he was a very good wall and had Sandstorm to boot. As for unfavorable matchups, it's not the worst one ever. Heck I almost soloed Giovanni with a Butterfree once. I regret nothing. I really should train Venomoth more though. I've only used it once, and it's a decent enough Pokemon that learns Psychic naturally despite being a Poison type. Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
As I said, it's a shame that Ice Beam wasn't a TM in this Gen, because that really put a crimp on what you could use as an Ice attacker. (It actually forced you to use *gasp* actual Ice types!) Assuming that you had no trading access, Ice Punch was a TM (and still a Special move), so Kadabra and Slowbro made good use of it. You could've also tried a Nidoroyal or Golduck for something a little less conventional. Jynx got it naturally and off of a solid 115 Special Attack if you wanted to go that way. As for Ice Beam, your only options without RBY tradebacks or Crystal were Dewgong (L43), Lapras (L36), and Octillery (L54). Dewgong is pretty awful, and Remoraid isn't exactly the easiest Pokémon to find, so Lapras is probably the best one (although Octillery does have a better Sp. Attack and wider natural movepool). Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
A part of me feels like GF used ORAS as a substitute for a XY Third Version or prequel/sequel, because the entire point of making Mega Evolution such a huge part of Hoenn's story (especially in the Delta Episode) seems to serve no other purpose than to tie up loose ends in XY and patch up any poor, inconsistent writing (aka. what Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 did). I hope this doesn't mean that Gen 6 will end with just XY and ORAS, but this, combined with Masuda's comments about doing a XY Third Version or sequel, makes it seem likely. :sideways: |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
They should've done the same thing with XY, hit the reset button and go all the way back to the beginning of the timeline. Then, ORAS wouldn't have needed to explain away nearly as many inconsistencies. Quote:
|
Quote:
My god Game Freak you really broke things now. Unless there is some justification for the future Pokemon being missing the whole dang timeline is screwed. Maybe Timeline B is a broken timeline after all. All these temporal paradoxes have got to be doing damage to the timeline. |
Quote:
As an aside, it's technically Timeline C, as Timeline A is RBY/GSC and Timeline B is RSE/FRLG/DPP/HGSS/BW/B2W2. I've heard talk about Gen 7 being a "return to simplicity," so that could possibly mean a return to either of the older timelines. Doing that, of course, would mean no more remakes for good (although, a DPP or BW/2 one that takes place on the same timeline as RBY/GSC could still potentially work), as well as the possible removal of Mega Evolutions from the games. Another possible out would be to hit the reset button in Gen 7 with XY prequels that take place at the same time as Gens 1 and 3 (thus, paving the way for Gen 1 remakes) and establish XY as being part of a different timeline from ORAS. It's not a perfect fix, but it cleans things up well enough. (Of course, that could mean, yet, another game that's centered around Mega Evolution...) |
Quote:
Problem is, D/P/Pl takes place a couple of months before HG/SS, which takes place 3 years after RSE and Fr/Lg. You can't really have D/P remakes taking place chronologically at the same time as ORAS because Looker would have to be in two places at once, and you can't put B2/W2 at the same time as Gold and Silver because those games took place two years after Black and White, which took place an estimated 2-5 years after Gold and Silver. You'd be circumventing Black and White entirely, which royally screws everything up. There's just no easy way to fix things other than erasing Pokemon X and Y from continuity, and even then it would be a mess because Zinnia would still be referencing X/Y's lore, and all of Kalos's Pokemon have to come from somewhere. Game Freak wrote themselves into a corner, and we COULD have games from the other timelines except they'd have to include Mega Evolution for continuity's sake (and to avoid the fanbase busting into flames,) and Mega Evolution doesn't exist in Timelines A and B. (I admit that was real silly of me, not taking into place the timeline in which R/B/Y and G/S/C take place in... I wish we'd revisit that timeline sometime in the future.) The only real option is to have remakes that have Mega Evolution in them, and that means possibly adding new Pokemon and having them vanish in the future because they didn't exist when X and Y were made. It's a dang catch-22, as they're screwed no matter what they do. If they add more Pokemon, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they make remakes, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they omit Mega Evolution they're in trouble, and if they add it they're in trouble. I wish Mega Evolution was never made a story point, because all the problems we're looking at are caused because Mega Evolution only exists in one timeline and does not exist in the others. They should have just made it a minor thing, and even then it would have caused problems because then we'd be asking why the villainous teams never use it. |
There is an easy fix, bring back the time capsule and have it be exclusive to some regions but not others. Like Gen VII could focus on Time travel and such.
Anyways in the sales department ORAS is still doing pretty well. |
Quote:
Problem is, if there was a remake of say, Diamond and Pearl, that was made during Gen VII, the new Pokemon would be added to the National Dex of both games for continuity's sake, as you would not be able to fully complete the dex without those additions. The snarl doesn't come from the fact that the Pokemon didn't exist in ORAS; it would make some sense because Diamond and Pearl take place roughly 2 1/2 years later. The problem comes from the fact that X and Y take place several years after Diamond and Pearl, at the same time Black 2 and White 2 were happening. They should have already discovered these Pokemon, but didn't, and since they're in the same continuity as ORAS and the presumed remakes it means these Pokemon that were discovered were forgotten about or vanished entirely. We already have this problem concerning the Mega Evolutions; there's absolutely no excuse why some Mega Evolutions like Mega Pidgeot and Mega Diancie would vanish over the course of 6-8 years. If X and Y took place in the past it would make sense but they don't, and in this case the Time Capsule wouldn't help matters because it's not the past versions that have the problem; it's the future games where these things should exist, but for some reason do not. In this generation we have two games that takes place in the future (Pokemon X and Y) and two games that take place in the past (ORAS). Since they didn't employ a Time Capsule for those versions, they probably won't implement it in Gen VII. |
Quote:
Anyways this is getting off topic so back to ORAS and 'History' repeating itself. I wouldn't say ORAS are repeating the same path RS had. I say this as unlike RS during Gen III ORAS seems to be more or as popular as the Gen I and II remakes while RS weren't liked by Gen I or II fans as much...or even not at all... |
Quote:
With that said, I think the dissonance has to do with nostalgia. Back when R/S/E came out most people who played it grew up with R/B/Y and G/S/C, and they didn't like it because it wasn't as good as those games. The kids who grew up with R/S/E though liked it, and as the older fans became more sporadic the demand for an R/S/E remake grew, because they wanted the game they grew up with. Personally I grew up in the third generation and loved the games to death, and you couldn't get me to play ORAS if you gave me a million dollars. To me, they changed too much of what made the originals great without adding anything in return, ironically much like the third gen games were like in comparison to Gen II. |
Quote:
From where they were going with XY, it would've made far more sense for ORAS to be sequels set during B2W2/XY's time, possibly also paired with a Virtual Console release of RSE. Then, they could've put Megas and Fairies in Hoenn without having to introduce another alternate timeline (which was mostly done in the first place to explain why Megas and Fairies were in Hoenn, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova), and the continuity of the games wouldn't have been nearly as broken. If this was the case, it's unclear why GF scrapped the sequel plans for a remake (although, the 3DS's issues with emulating GBA games may have been a factor; without RSE fresh in memory and readily available, a sequel couldn't have worked nearly as well). Quote:
It started to change by the late 2000s when Pokémania reached its 10th anniversary and the original fans were all now 17-22 years old (a time when you start to care less about peer pressure and looking "grownup"). People started whipping their old cartridges out and getting nostalgic, and they were eventually rewarded in the form of HGSS. That exact same thing would eventually happen with the younger Gen 3-era fans later on, and ORAS were their reward. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
As for the Mega Evolutions... well it does seem strange that there's not very many new evolutions for Hoenn Pokemon. Instead they're for Pokemon obtainable in the Kalos region like Pidgeot and Beedrill. You'd figure there'd be some Mega Evolutions for more Hoenn Pokemon that can easily be found there, not Kalos natives. |
That's kinda just how fandoms are, if there is a flaw or something a select group of people don't like, then it will be criticized and whatever they're complaining about will (not always, sometimes it really can be that bad) be exaggerated.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Mario has never really been known for changing its formula much either since it's usually him saving Peach from Bowser, even though I haven't played most of the newest Mario games. But with Pokémon it works because there are new regions and over 700 Pokémon to use at this point.
|
Quote:
Also, there is evidence that the so called "vocal minority" might be actually having an effect on the sales. X/Y are the lowest selling main Pokemon games in the series, doing worse than B/W and R/S did despite being more heavily advertised than B/W (from what I can recall anyway). There is evidence to suggest that the age demographic of the people that have been playing the games have changed from school children to teenagers/adults and have easy access to the internet. It is likely that this, compounded with the fallout from Gen V's hate and the Gen VI hate, is part of the reason for the drop in sales. OR/AS are doing well for remakes so far, but that can trail off badly like what happened with X/Y and the series still looks like it is in danger of dying in the next couple of generations if sales don't pick up due being the second consecutive generation of decline. Changing up the formula might have a huge drop in the sales numbers initially, but this is only temporary if you continue following that formula with further titles. This is demonstrated by the Super Mario Galaxy series, which is well loved by most the fanbase that hasn't grown out of Mario altogether. SMG 1 sold remarkably poorly for a main series game, at about 9mil sales compared to NSMB's 20mil, but then SMG 2 came along and drew much better sales figures, comparable to the rest of the main series titles. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:03 AM. |
![]()
© 2002 - 2018 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2016 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.
Acknowledgements
Use of PokéCommunity Assets
vB Optimise by DragonByte Technologies Ltd © 2023.