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mew_nani March 14th, 2015 9:08 PM

Betty, concerning you saying that Lance is easy is very subjective. He may be easy to you because you took the time to grind levels and make a counter for him, but when I fought him I barely freaking made it through. Of course that's because my team was in the late 30s-mid 40s level wise and I didn't take the time to grind, but still I barely made it through with the skin of my teeth! It's easy if you meticulously plan around defeating him but if your team isn't overused Pokemon and you don't have a designed counter you're still gonna have some problems. I'm not saying he's easy OR hard; just saying that difficulty is high subjective and dependent on what team you have and what levels your team is at. Obviously it's gonna be a lot harder when your team consists of lesser mons. Come to think of it I don't really see you arguing much about Wallace or Steven despite them specializing in Water and Rock respectively. Sure it's not 3 mons of the same species but their team has shared weaknesses between Pokemon that can easily be exploited.

With that said however this gen is VERY similar to Gen III, and I've noticed Pokemon tends to be quite cyclical. There's an advancement phase where they're testing out new concepts, a more polished phase where they improve upon things and introduce good concepts, and a phase where they leave some previously liked things out and everything goes stale. The first have of Gen IV is very similar to Gen I, where they're testing out new concepts and basically designing an entire engine from scratch, and it tended to be bare bones and have an entire assortment from glitches much like the first gen Pokemon games did. The later half of Gen IV and Gen V is a lot like Gen II where they're taking everything good from the previous games and building up on it, and adding things that generally improve the franchise as a whole, like day/night for Gen II and seasons for Gen V. Gen VI is similar to Gen III in that even though it's polished they removed some things from the previous games while adding nothing in return, and in general it feels stale. Pokemon X and Y didn't have seasons or anything to really make the game immersive, and while they had models the models are lifeless compared to the vibrant animated sprites of Gen V. It's very similar to Gen III where the day/night cycle was cut and Pokemon weren't animated for the most part, where in Crystal they were animated, and until Emerald came along there wasn't really much added to the games even though they were 16-bit and colorful. Pokemon X and Y are a very good example of this, as even though they're pretty, that's all they are; they're pretty stale in comparison to Pokemon Heartgold or Pokemon Black. ORAS I think is like this too; it's a remake but for me it's inadequate due to them leaving things out that should have been there, and having no endgame besides a tiny little island and a small quest to justify you getting Deoxys, and it has similar problems to X/Y in terms of framerate and not properly utilizing the 3D feature.

Cerberus87 March 14th, 2015 9:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
Big whoop. Doesn't matter when they're all outsped and KO-ed with Ice Punch. :rolleyes2:

It would be the same if he had Salamence, Garchomp and Dragonite, like he does in the remakes.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
Both things are also true for Arbok, you know.

Arbok feels random, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
If you're not going to put enough Ghosts in the game for a Ghost E4 member to use, nor are you going to allow her to have a varied "spooky-themed" team, then... Just don't have a Ghost E4 member to begin with? It's pretty simple. :rolleyes2:

Would you rather repeat types? Maybe have a Bug-type E4 with the amazing Beedrill, Butterfree, Parasect, Venomoth, non-STAB Scyther and Pinsir... All of them roasted by Flamethrower. That's no challenge at all. :rolleyes2:

Morty's team in GSC was less varied than Agatha's, but it served its purpose. Even with just the Gastly line, Ghost is a tricky type to get rid of at that point in the game. Alakazam is a double-edged sword because Gengar can fight you back (you don't have access to Psychic early on).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
What personality? All I saw was this clown in a silly mask who used a bunch of weak Pokémon that I flattened in no time. (I was actually surprised that he wasn't packing the powerhouses known as Unown and Girafarig. :rolleyes2:) Just pitiful, especially coming off of Clair and her Kingdra.

Having more personality than the Hoenn E4 doesn't mean much as they're all just a bunch of cardboard cut-outs.

Of course you did, he's supposed to be the easiest of the bunch. I also zapped Lorelei to oblivion with Electric-type Pokémon, doesn't make her bad as her roster gives her personality, she's a beefier Misty like Bruno is a beefier Brock.

I like Will's roster because he deviates from the Psychic-type specialist paradigm that dictates he/she must have Alakazam or something like that. As much as I love Alakazam, it gets boring if all specialists use it (Sabrina and Lucian, for example).

Kingdra is pretty much the only strong Pokémon Clair has, too. Dragonair is decent but more because of its type than its power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8655999)
If you're a competitive battler, sure.

The N quest was pretty significant storywise. You can go to the BW early routes, battle the Striaton Trio, explore the water routes west of Nuvema, find the Magma Stone for Heatran, battle Colress one last time, challenge Alder, explore Twist Mountain, capture countless legendaries... This link shows there's far more to do besides PWT and Battle Subway. GSC only had the badges and a silly Rocket quest. HGSS compares far more favorably to B2W2, but still, B2W2 didn't need a second region to have lots of things to do in the postgame.

BettyNewbie March 14th, 2015 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656048)
Betty, concerning you saying that Lance is easy is very subjective. He may be easy to you because you took the time to grind levels and make a counter for him, but when I fought him I barely freaking made it through. Of course that's because my team was in the late 30s-mid 40s level wise and I didn't take the time to grind, but still I barely made it through with the skin of my teeth! It's easy if you meticulously plan around defeating him but if your team isn't overused Pokemon and you don't have a designed counter you're still gonna have some problems. I'm not saying he's easy OR hard; just saying that difficulty is high subjective and dependent on what team you have and what levels your team is at. Obviously it's gonna be a lot harder when your team consists of lesser mons.

Well, that's simply what you get for going in underleveled. :P Even the weakest trainers can easily cream you if they're 10 levels ahead of you.

(What team were you using against him, BTW?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656048)
Come to think of it I don't really see you arguing much about Wallace or Steven despite them specializing in Water and Rock respectively. Sure it's not 3 mons of the same species but their team has shared weaknesses between Pokemon that can easily be exploited.

Wallace was a Water specialist and his team was mono-Water, so he was exactly what you'd expect him to be. Some of them mix things up a little with their secondary typings (Ludicolo isn't weak to any of Water's weaknesses), but no, he's not terribly difficult.

As for Steven, his team isn't actually mono-Steel, but he does, at least, have three unique fully-evolved Steel types, and you actually can't sweep his entire team with only one or two moves. (The non-Steel types and Aggron aren't weak to Fire, the non-Steel types and Skarmory aren't weak to Ground, Skarmory, Claydol, and Metagross aren't weak to Fighting, and so on).

But, Lance? First of all, despite supposedly being a Dragon trainer, his team is actually mono-Flying. Yeah, I know that GSC didn't have many Dragons, but seriously? Couldn't they have found some non-Flying "pseudo-Dragons" to give him? And, what about Kingdra?

Even worse, his entire team is weak to Rock (Charizard 4x), as well as the popular BoltBeam combo (with Gyarados and the Dragonites being 4x weak). The only thing that kept him from being a total pushover was Rock Slide, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt not being readily-available TMs. (And, I say this as someone who otherwise loves his character.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656048)
With that said however this gen is VERY similar to Gen III, and I've noticed Pokemon tends to be quite cyclical. There's an advancement phase where they're testing out new concepts, a more polished phase where they improve upon things and introduce good concepts, and a phase where they leave some previously liked things out and everything goes stale. The first have of Gen IV is very similar to Gen I, where they're testing out new concepts and basically designing an entire engine from scratch, and it tended to be bare bones and have an entire assortment from glitches much like the first gen Pokemon games did. The later half of Gen IV and Gen V is a lot like Gen II where they're taking everything good from the previous games and building up on it, and adding things that generally improve the franchise as a whole, like day/night for Gen II and seasons for Gen V. Gen VI is similar to Gen III in that even though it's polished they removed some things from the previous games while adding nothing in return, and in general it feels stale. Pokemon X and Y didn't have seasons or anything to really make the game immersive, and while they had models the models are lifeless compared to the vibrant animated sprites of Gen V. It's very similar to Gen III where the day/night cycle was cut and Pokemon weren't animated for the most part, where in Crystal they were animated, and until Emerald came along there wasn't really much added to the games even though they were 16-bit and colorful. Pokemon X and Y are a very good example of this, as even though they're pretty, that's all they are; they're pretty stale in comparison to Pokemon Heartgold or Pokemon Black. ORAS I think is like this too; it's a remake but for me it's inadequate due to them leaving things out that should have been there, and having no endgame besides a tiny little island and a small quest to justify you getting Deoxys, and it has similar problems to X/Y in terms of framerate and not properly utilizing the 3D feature.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Very fitting that Gens 2 and 3 were remade when they were, huh? ;)

mew_nani March 14th, 2015 9:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656093)
Well, that's simply what you get for going in underleveled. :P Even the weakest trainers can easily cream you if they're 10 levels ahead of you.

(What team were you using against him, BTW?)

A Lugia, an Ampharos, a Typhlosion, a Gyrados (I think, I can't remember since the battery died some years ago, it might have been a Pidgeot instead), a Togetic, and Rocky the Onix. (Yes, that Onix you get near the start of the game for trading in a Bellsprout.) All from level 35 to 45. In spite of nearly being defeated and having to rely on Lugia most of the time he was defeated and presumably very humiliated. This is for the original Silver by the way; I used a similar team with SoulSilver and didn't have as much trouble. Can't remember if Rocky was still part of the team though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656093)
Wallace was a Water specialist and his team was mono-Water, so he was exactly what you'd expect him to be. Some of them mix things up a little with their secondary typings (Ludicolo isn't weak to any of Water's weaknesses), but no, he's not terribly difficult.

As for Steven, his team isn't actually mono-Steel, but he does, at least, have three unique fully-evolved Steel types, and you actually can't sweep his entire team with only one or two moves. (The non-Steel types and Aggron aren't weak to Fire, the non-Steel types and Skarmory aren't weak to Ground, Skarmory, Claydol, and Metagross aren't weak to Fighting, and so on).

But, Lance? First of all, despite supposedly being a Dragon trainer, his team is actually mono-Flying. Yeah, I know that GSC didn't have many Dragons, but seriously? Couldn't they have found some non-Flying "pseudo-Dragons" to give him? And, what about Kingdra?

Even worse, his entire team is weak to Rock (Charizard 4x), as well as the popular BoltBeam combo (with Gyarados and the Dragonites being 4x weak). The only thing that kept him from being a total pushover was Rock Slide, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt not being readily-available TMs. (And, I say this as someone who otherwise loves his character.)

Lance's team I think weren't designed around Flying types, but rather around things that were designed around dragons. Gyrados is based off the legend of a carp swimming up a waterfall and becoming a dragon, so he gets one. Charizard looks like a dragon and breathes fire like one, so bam, instant team member. Aerodactyl is based off of a pterodactyl, which looks similar to a wyvern, so he gets one. They didn't bother making several different dragons like they should have (Charizard and Gyrados should have been part Dragon from the start) so instead they give him things that look like dragons and say "welp, we're done here." The reason they gave him several different Dragonites was because other than Kingdra (which, come to think of it, really should have been in his roster. Maybe they didn't add it because it looked like a seahorse?) he didn't have access to any other Dragon typed Pokemon. Even so, he's not got a monotype team, which while making it more difficult than him just having all Dragons still makes his Aerodactyl and Charizard stand out like sore thumbs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656093)
Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Very fitting that Gens 2 and 3 were remade when they were, huh? ;)

I'm glad they were; if they were done during Gen VI they would have ruined them. HeartGold and SoulSilver did NOT need to revolve around mega evolution and have their main bad guys changed.

BettyNewbie March 14th, 2015 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656117)
A Lugia, an Ampharos, a Typhlosion, a Gyrados (I think, I can't remember since the battery died some years ago, it might have been a Pidgeot instead), a Togetic, and Rocky the Onix. (Yes, that Onix you get near the start of the game for trading in a Bellsprout.) All from level 35 to 45. In spite of nearly being defeated and having to rely on Lugia most of the time he was defeated and presumably very humiliated. This is for the original Silver by the way; I used a similar team with SoulSilver and didn't have as much trouble. Can't remember if Rocky was still part of the team though.

Yeah... This is where the lack of Ice Beam/Thunderbolt TMs hurt you. Lugia can learn both moves, which would've made it perfect against Lance, but they're only available as a postgame Move Tutor in Crystal. Blizzard and Thunder are available in GS, but they're expensive and very unreliable.

As for the others, Ampharos is good against half of his team, but Typhlosion can't really do anything to his Pokémon, and neither Gyarados or Togetic were good in Gen 2 (the former lacked the P/S Split and the latter lacked its evolution). Rocky might have worked if you had access to Steelix (and a RBY game where it could learn Rock Slide as an Onix).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656117)
Lance's team I think weren't designed around Flying types, but rather around things that were designed around dragons. Gyrados is based off the legend of a carp swimming up a waterfall and becoming a dragon, so he gets one. Charizard looks like a dragon and breathes fire like one, so bam, instant team member. Aerodactyl is based off of a pterodactyl, which looks similar to a wyvern, so he gets one. They didn't bother making several different dragons like they should have (Charizard and Gyrados should have been part Dragon from the start) so instead they give him things that look like dragons and say "welp, we're done here." The reason they gave him several different Dragonites was because other than Kingdra (which, come to think of it, really should have been in his roster. Maybe they didn't add it because it looked like a seahorse?) he didn't have access to any other Dragon typed Pokemon. Even so, he's not got a monotype team, which while making it more difficult than him just having all Dragons still makes his Aerodactyl and Charizard stand out like sore thumbs.

Oh, Lance's Pokémon were definitely meant to be dragons, but GF inadvertently ended up giving him a mono-Flying team. (And, one that was all Gen 1 Pokémon at that, despite him being one of the few E4 members/Champions to be canonically from Johto.) So what, if Kingdra's a seahorse, it's still a Dragon type. And, what about Ampharos (Japanese name means "electric dragon," and Lance had one in the TCG) or Steelix (giant snake, could always learn Dragonbreath, and Lance had one in Stadium 2)? They could've done way better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656117)
I'm glad they were; if they were done during Gen VI they would have ruined them. HeartGold and SoulSilver did NOT need to revolve around mega evolution and have their main bad guys changed.

I take it you're not a fan of those changes? :P (Trust me, I'm a little iffy about Hoenn's plot being altered to revolve around Mega Evolution, myself.)

mew_nani March 14th, 2015 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656147)
Yeah... This is where the lack of Ice Beam/Thunderbolt TMs hurt you. Lugia can learn both moves, which would've made it perfect against Lance, but they're only available as a postgame Move Tutor in Crystal. Blizzard and Thunder are available in GS, but they're expensive and very unreliable.

As for the others, Ampharos is good against half of his team, but Typhlosion can't really do anything to his Pokémon, and neither Gyarados or Togetic were good in Gen 2 (the former lacked the P/S Split and the latter lacked its evolution). Rocky might have worked if you had access to Steelix (and a RBY game where it could learn Rock Slide as an Onix).

I can't really remember their movesets well, but I don't think any of them had an Ice type move (I could be wrong, it was years ago.) I was still outleveled and outsped badly, even with the aid of Lugia. The battle amounted to "use revive, use Sandstorm, use revive, use Recover, hope for an opening and take advantage of it." I did eventually win though, and it was awesome. It was funny, as my Ampharos still wasn't over level 40 at the end of it.

As for using the Pokemon I did, I just liked them and used them because of that. I always liked Togetic, and even beat the Elite Four with one playing SoulSilver even though I didn't have access to its evolution yet (thanks Extrasensory!) Rocky though was stuck as an Onix the whole time because while I have Red and Blue in addition to Silver I lacked two Game Boys and a Link Cable for said Game Boys, making his evolution impossible. Still he wasn't too bad, as he was a very good wall and had Sandstorm to boot.

As for unfavorable matchups, it's not the worst one ever. Heck I almost soloed Giovanni with a Butterfree once. I regret nothing. I really should train Venomoth more though. I've only used it once, and it's a decent enough Pokemon that learns Psychic naturally despite being a Poison type.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656147)
Oh, Lance's Pokémon were definitely meant to be dragons, but GF inadvertently ended up giving him a mono-Flying team. (And, one that was all Gen 1 Pokémon at that, despite him being one of the few E4 members/Champions to be canonically from Johto.) So what, if Kingdra's a seahorse, it's still a Dragon type. And, what about Ampharos (Japanese name means "electric dragon," and Lance had one in the TCG) or Steelix (giant snake, could always learn Dragonbreath, and Lance had one in Stadium 2)? They could've done way better.

That actually would have been a good curveball if he had an Ampharos. Your ice and lightning attacks aren't gonna do much to that thing. Oh the missed opportunities... I dunno about him having a Steelix though. Thing doesn't exactly scream "dragon", and it's not too hard to take down if you have Surf, which you probably would have on you at that point. Either way he could have subbed at least one Dragonite out for another Pokemon. At least they each had different movesets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656147)
I take it you're not a fan of those changes? :P (Trust me, I'm a little iffy about Hoenn's plot being altered to revolve around Mega Evolution, myself.)

That's a very lengthy conversation for another thread. I'll just leave it at I didn't even play the demo they handed out. I can't even bear to watch a walkthrough. They changed too many things. :(

minecraftprosick March 15th, 2015 7:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altairis (Post 8621686)
Well, I guess it can be said this because after a while the same formula DOES get old, even if ORAS specifically wasn't designed to bring many new things to the table. At its core, the game is basically is the same as every other Pokemon game, with some shiny new features. I really like several of the ORAS-specific features, such as the DexNav and Soaring, but given Nintendo's pattern of keeping larger features specific to the game they were introduced in (such as walking Pokemon in HGSS, character customization in XY, with the exception of Pokemon Amie), it's likely that these features won't be in the next Pokemon game. I mean, even if these WERE in the next game, it would just become repetitive and everything would be the same except for a few small characters, plot, and location.

Don't get me wrong, I love ORAS. But maybe the sales are just falling because the basics are the same: 8 gyms, elite four, only some post game. In the end, though, Pokemon will still get money regardless of how "good" the games actually are.

I do think it just repeats. Every Pokemon game is the same, but in a different region and the same storyline but with a different enemy name.

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 8:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
I can't really remember their movesets well, but I don't think any of them had an Ice type move (I could be wrong, it was years ago.) I was still outleveled and outsped badly, even with the aid of Lugia. The battle amounted to "use revive, use Sandstorm, use revive, use Recover, hope for an opening and take advantage of it." I did eventually win though, and it was awesome. It was funny, as my Ampharos still wasn't over level 40 at the end of it.

As for using the Pokemon I did, I just liked them and used them because of that. I always liked Togetic, and even beat the Elite Four with one playing SoulSilver even though I didn't have access to its evolution yet (thanks Extrasensory!) Rocky though was stuck as an Onix the whole time because while I have Red and Blue in addition to Silver I lacked two Game Boys and a Link Cable for said Game Boys, making his evolution impossible. Still he wasn't too bad, as he was a very good wall and had Sandstorm to boot.

Yeah, you could've stood to do more grinding. Ampharos shouldn't have had a hard time with Gyarados, Aerodactyl, and Charizard at all.

As I said, it's a shame that Ice Beam wasn't a TM in this Gen, because that really put a crimp on what you could use as an Ice attacker. (It actually forced you to use *gasp* actual Ice types!) Assuming that you had no trading access, Ice Punch was a TM (and still a Special move), so Kadabra and Slowbro made good use of it. You could've also tried a Nidoroyal or Golduck for something a little less conventional. Jynx got it naturally and off of a solid 115 Special Attack if you wanted to go that way.

As for Ice Beam, your only options without RBY tradebacks or Crystal were Dewgong (L43), Lapras (L36), and Octillery (L54). Dewgong is pretty awful, and Remoraid isn't exactly the easiest Pokémon to find, so Lapras is probably the best one (although Octillery does have a better Sp. Attack and wider natural movepool).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
As for unfavorable matchups, it's not the worst one ever. Heck I almost soloed Giovanni with a Butterfree once. I regret nothing. I really should train Venomoth more though. I've only used it once, and it's a decent enough Pokemon that learns Psychic naturally despite being a Poison type.

Yeah, Venomoth has always been one of those Pokémon that most people overlook. Bug and Poison types have never had a good reputation, and unlike Butterfree and friends, you usually don't get Venomoth until you already have access to a bunch of stronger things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
That actually would have been a good curveball if he had an Ampharos. Your ice and lightning attacks aren't gonna do much to that thing. Oh the missed opportunities...

Exactly. His team would've improved tenfold if he ditched the dupe Dragonites for Kingdra and Ampharos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8656188)
That's a very lengthy conversation for another thread. I'll just leave it at I didn't even play the demo they handed out. I can't even bear to watch a walkthrough. They changed too many things. :(

While the last thing I would've wanted was for ORAS to be a glorified enhanced port like FRLG was, I don't think that retconning Hoenn's story to revolve around Mega Evolution was the smartest move on GF's part. (Really, I hope the story part of Mega Evolution is downplayed a lot next Gen. I don't think Megas aren't the worst thing ever, but c'mon, this isn't Digimon.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by minecraftprosick (Post 8656608)
I do think it just repeats. Every Pokemon game is the same, but in a different region and the same storyline but with a different enemy name.

I long for nothing more than for GF to throw a curveball. Just about every non-remake game released since RS has followed that same formula, with only BW/2 shaking it up a little. It's gotten very stale and tiring, IMO.

Nah March 15th, 2015 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8656686)

While the last thing I would've wanted was for ORAS to be a glorified enhanced port like FRLG was, I don't think that retconning Hoenn's story to revolve around Mega Evolution was the smartest move on GF's part. (Really, I hope the story part of Mega Evolution is downplayed a lot next Gen. I don't think Megas aren't the worst thing ever, but c'mon, this isn't Digimon.)

Funny thing is that they didn't have to make Mega Evolution a main story point in ORAS if they didn't write themselves into a corner by making Mega Evolution seem to be a Kalos-only thing in X/Y. But apparently they weren't really thinking ahead. Clearly it's a feature that's here to stay in Pokemon, but when you introduce it as something only happening in one region, but then include it in another....woops.

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 2:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8656821)
Funny thing is that they didn't have to make Mega Evolution a main story point in ORAS if they didn't write themselves into a corner by making Mega Evolution seem to be a Kalos-only thing in X/Y. But apparently they weren't really thinking ahead. Clearly it's a feature that's here to stay in Pokemon, but when you introduce it as something only happening in one region, but then include it in another....woops.

Yet again, poor writing in XY is the culprit. :rolleyes2:

A part of me feels like GF used ORAS as a substitute for a XY Third Version or prequel/sequel, because the entire point of making Mega Evolution such a huge part of Hoenn's story (especially in the Delta Episode) seems to serve no other purpose than to tie up loose ends in XY and patch up any poor, inconsistent writing (aka. what Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 did). I hope this doesn't mean that Gen 6 will end with just XY and ORAS, but this, combined with Masuda's comments about doing a XY Third Version or sequel, makes it seem likely. :sideways:

Cerberus87 March 15th, 2015 5:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8657191)
Yet again, poor writing in XY is the culprit. :rolleyes2:

A part of me feels like GF used ORAS as a substitute for a XY Third Version or prequel/sequel, because the entire point of making Mega Evolution such a huge part of Hoenn's story (especially in the Delta Episode) seems to serve no other purpose than to tie up loose ends in XY and patch up any poor, inconsistent writing (aka. what Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 did). I hope this doesn't mean that Gen 6 will end with just XY and ORAS, but this, combined with Masuda's comments about doing a XY Third Version or sequel, makes it seem likely. :sideways:

IMO it's ORAS that creates the problems, not XY. The timeline was just fine with XY being ahead of B2W2, but they had to make ORAS and fuck it up with alternate timeline BS.

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8657411)
IMO it's ORAS that creates the problems, not XY. The timeline was just fine with XY being ahead of B2W2, but they had to make ORAS and psyduck it up with alternate timeline BS.

Let's face it though... even if ORAS didn't focus around Mega Evolution we would still have Pokemon being able to Mega Evolve outside of Kalos, around a decade earlier, for no explainable reason, and we would still have mega stones like Diancite vanishing off the face of the earth. ORAS just made the problems more obvious by centering the entire story around Mega Evolution (which just shouldn't have been done at all; thank the lord they didn't stick with Groudon and Kyogre devolving instead of reverting) and making the concept first and foremost when it didn't exist at all in RSE. They should have just had time traveling enabled instead of having the two Mega Evolving for no reason other than OMG it looks so cool, the 8 year olds would love it!!!

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 8:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 8657411)
IMO it's ORAS that creates the problems, not XY. The timeline was just fine with XY being ahead of B2W2, but they had to make ORAS and **** it up with alternate timeline BS.

Setting XY at the same time as B2W2 was probably not the smartest idea on GF's part if they had been planning ORAS from the beginning. There's a reason why RSE took place at the same time as FRLG instead of during or after GSC; it let GF do a clean reboot instead of mucking up the old timeline and trying to haphazardly explain why Dark and Steel existed in FRLG, yet were "newly discovered" in GSC. (HGSS, of course, finalized this reboot years later by removing any references to Dark and Steel being "newly discovered" from Gen 2's dialog.)

They should've done the same thing with XY, hit the reset button and go all the way back to the beginning of the timeline. Then, ORAS wouldn't have needed to explain away nearly as many inconsistencies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657424)
Let's face it though... even if ORAS didn't focus around Mega Evolution we would still have Pokemon being able to Mega Evolve outside of Kalos, around a decade earlier, for no explainable reason, and we would still have mega stones like Diancite vanishing off the face of the earth. ORAS just made the problems more obvious by centering the entire story around Mega Evolution (which just shouldn't have been done at all; thank the lord they didn't stick with Groudon and Kyogre devolving instead of reverting) and making the concept first and foremost when it didn't exist at all in RSE. They should have just had time traveling enabled instead of having the two Mega Evolving for no reason other than OMG it looks so cool, the 8 year olds would love it!!!

Another member pointed out to me that there are even more severe timeline problems than just the Megas. Unless every single game released from Gen 7 onwards takes place after XY, then the mere addition of new Pokémon causes problems--How come these Pokémon were never seen or heard from in Kalos if they were known about X number of years in the past? Applying gameplay and story segregation can only go so far in these situations, and it would just be ridiculous if the timeline kept resetting itself with every new Gen.

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 8:25 PM

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Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8657556)
Another member pointed out to me that there are even more severe timeline problems than just the Megas. Unless every single game released from Gen 7 onwards takes place after XY, then the mere addition of new Pokémon causes problems--How come these Pokémon were never seen or heard from in Kalos if they were known about X number of years in the past? Applying gameplay and story segregation can only go so far in these situations, and it would just be ridiculous if the timeline kept resetting itself with every new Gen.

Oh my lord that IS right.... if Gen VII adds new Pokemon, and these Pokemon are obtainable in a DP or Fr/Lg remake, which took place several years before Pokemon X and Y, that means these Pokemon will not exist in the future where X and Y take place without any sort of explanation at all. These future Pokemon will both exist and be nonexistent because they were both already discovered in the past but not discovered in the future!

My god Game Freak you really broke things now. Unless there is some justification for the future Pokemon being missing the whole dang timeline is screwed. Maybe Timeline B is a broken timeline after all. All these temporal paradoxes have got to be doing damage to the timeline.

BettyNewbie March 15th, 2015 8:45 PM

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Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657561)
Oh my lord that IS right.... if Gen VII adds new Pokemon, and these Pokemon are obtainable in a DP or Fr/Lg remake, which took place several years before Pokemon X and Y, that means these Pokemon will not exist in the future where X and Y take place without any sort of explanation at all. These future Pokemon will both exist and be nonexistent because they both already discovered in the past but not discovered in the future!

My god Game Freak you really broke things now. Unless there is some justification for the future Pokemon being missing the whole dang timeline is screwed. Maybe Timeline B is a broken timeline after all. All these temporal paradoxes have got to be doing damage to the timeline.

Pretty awful isn't it? As much as people complain about there being too many Pokémon, I think people would riot if Gen 7 (or onwards) didn't add any new Pokémon.

As an aside, it's technically Timeline C, as Timeline A is RBY/GSC and Timeline B is RSE/FRLG/DPP/HGSS/BW/B2W2. I've heard talk about Gen 7 being a "return to simplicity," so that could possibly mean a return to either of the older timelines. Doing that, of course, would mean no more remakes for good (although, a DPP or BW/2 one that takes place on the same timeline as RBY/GSC could still potentially work), as well as the possible removal of Mega Evolutions from the games.

Another possible out would be to hit the reset button in Gen 7 with XY prequels that take place at the same time as Gens 1 and 3 (thus, paving the way for Gen 1 remakes) and establish XY as being part of a different timeline from ORAS. It's not a perfect fix, but it cleans things up well enough. (Of course, that could mean, yet, another game that's centered around Mega Evolution...)

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 9:15 PM

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Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 8657573)
Pretty awful isn't it? As much as people complain about there being too many Pokémon, I think people would riot if Gen 7 (or onwards) didn't add any new Pokémon.

As an aside, it's technically Timeline C, as Timeline A is RBY/GSC and Timeline B is RSE/FRLG/DPP/HGSS/BW/B2W2. I've heard talk about Gen 7 being a "return to simplicity," so that could possibly mean a return to either of the older timelines. Doing that, of course, would mean no more remakes for good (although, a DPP or BW/2 one that takes place on the same timeline as RBY/GSC could still potentially work), as well as the possible removal of Mega Evolutions from the games.

Another possible out would be to hit the reset button in Gen 7 with XY prequels that take place at the same time as Gens 1 and 3 (thus, paving the way for Gen 1 remakes) and establish XY as being part of a different timeline from ORAS. It's not a perfect fix, but it cleans things up well enough. (Of course, that could mean, yet, another game that's centered around Mega Evolution...)

Return to simplicity.... yeah, sure... These games have the most complicated and inconsistent continuity yet, and I wouldn't call them simple by any means.

Problem is, D/P/Pl takes place a couple of months before HG/SS, which takes place 3 years after RSE and Fr/Lg. You can't really have D/P remakes taking place chronologically at the same time as ORAS because Looker would have to be in two places at once, and you can't put B2/W2 at the same time as Gold and Silver because those games took place two years after Black and White, which took place an estimated 2-5 years after Gold and Silver. You'd be circumventing Black and White entirely, which royally screws everything up.

There's just no easy way to fix things other than erasing Pokemon X and Y from continuity, and even then it would be a mess because Zinnia would still be referencing X/Y's lore, and all of Kalos's Pokemon have to come from somewhere. Game Freak wrote themselves into a corner, and we COULD have games from the other timelines except they'd have to include Mega Evolution for continuity's sake (and to avoid the fanbase busting into flames,) and Mega Evolution doesn't exist in Timelines A and B. (I admit that was real silly of me, not taking into place the timeline in which R/B/Y and G/S/C take place in... I wish we'd revisit that timeline sometime in the future.) The only real option is to have remakes that have Mega Evolution in them, and that means possibly adding new Pokemon and having them vanish in the future because they didn't exist when X and Y were made.

It's a dang catch-22, as they're screwed no matter what they do. If they add more Pokemon, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they make remakes, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they omit Mega Evolution they're in trouble, and if they add it they're in trouble. I wish Mega Evolution was never made a story point, because all the problems we're looking at are caused because Mega Evolution only exists in one timeline and does not exist in the others. They should have just made it a minor thing, and even then it would have caused problems because then we'd be asking why the villainous teams never use it.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire March 15th, 2015 10:04 PM

There is an easy fix, bring back the time capsule and have it be exclusive to some regions but not others. Like Gen VII could focus on Time travel and such.

Anyways in the sales department ORAS is still doing pretty well.

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 10:42 PM

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Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8657615)
There is an easy fix, bring back the time capsule and have it be exclusive to some regions but not others. Like Gen VII could focus on Time travel and such.

Anyways in the sales department ORAS is still doing pretty well.

There's a problem with bringing back the Time Capsule system; in one set of games you'd never be able to complete the Pokedex. This worked for Pokemon Red and Blue because in that timeline Johto was still isolated from Kanto, and those Pokemon hadn't been discovered yet, and as a result you could complete the Pokedex without the Johto species. In Gold and Silver it was stable because while you could send Pokemon backwards you couldn't send newer Pokemon that were beyond Pokedex no. 151, and you couldn't send over any with moves that were nonexistent 3 years ago, thus preventing any kind of paradoxes from happening. This was more for glitch prevention than anything else, but it works continuity-wise too, as the two take place in separate generations and 3 years apart chronologically.

Problem is, if there was a remake of say, Diamond and Pearl, that was made during Gen VII, the new Pokemon would be added to the National Dex of both games for continuity's sake, as you would not be able to fully complete the dex without those additions. The snarl doesn't come from the fact that the Pokemon didn't exist in ORAS; it would make some sense because Diamond and Pearl take place roughly 2 1/2 years later. The problem comes from the fact that X and Y take place several years after Diamond and Pearl, at the same time Black 2 and White 2 were happening. They should have already discovered these Pokemon, but didn't, and since they're in the same continuity as ORAS and the presumed remakes it means these Pokemon that were discovered were forgotten about or vanished entirely. We already have this problem concerning the Mega Evolutions; there's absolutely no excuse why some Mega Evolutions like Mega Pidgeot and Mega Diancie would vanish over the course of 6-8 years. If X and Y took place in the past it would make sense but they don't, and in this case the Time Capsule wouldn't help matters because it's not the past versions that have the problem; it's the future games where these things should exist, but for some reason do not.

In this generation we have two games that takes place in the future (Pokemon X and Y) and two games that take place in the past (ORAS). Since they didn't employ a Time Capsule for those versions, they probably won't implement it in Gen VII.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire March 15th, 2015 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657628)
There's a problem with bringing back the Time Capsule system; in one set of games you'd never be able to complete the Pokedex. This worked for Pokemon Red and Blue because in that timeline Johto was still isolated from Kanto, and those Pokemon hadn't been discovered yet, and as a result you could complete the Pokedex without the Johto species. In Gold and Silver it was stable because while you could send Pokemon backwards you couldn't send newer Pokemon that were beyond Pokedex no. 151, and you couldn't send over any with moves that were nonexistent 3 years ago, thus preventing any kind of paradoxes from happening. This was more for glitch prevention than anything else, but it works continuity-wise too, as the two take place in separate generations and 3 years apart chronologically.

Problem is, if there was a remake of say, Diamond and Pearl, that was made during Gen VII, the new Pokemon would be added to the National Dex of both games for continuity's sake, as you would not be able to fully complete the dex without those additions. The snarl doesn't come from the fact that the Pokemon didn't exist in ORAS; it would make some sense because Diamond and Pearl take place roughly 2 1/2 years later. The problem comes from the fact that X and Y take place several years after Diamond and Pearl, at the same time Black 2 and White 2 were happening. They should have already discovered these Pokemon, but didn't, and since they're in the same continuity as ORAS and the presumed remakes it means these Pokemon that were discovered were forgotten about or vanished entirely. We already have this problem concerning the Mega Evolutions; there's absolutely no excuse why some Mega Evolutions like Mega Pidgeot and Mega Diancie would vanish over the course of 6-8 years. If X and Y took place in the past it would make sense but they don't, and in this case the Time Capsule wouldn't help matters because it's not the past versions that have the problem; it's the future games where these things should exist, but for some reason do not.

In this generation we have two games that takes place in the future (Pokemon X and Y) and two games that take place in the past (ORAS). Since they didn't employ a Time Capsule for those versions, they probably won't implement it in Gen VII.

Right, they should've had it in ORAS for it to have worked. Btw I am the member Betty was talking about who pointed this out.

Anyways this is getting off topic so back to ORAS and 'History' repeating itself. I wouldn't say ORAS are repeating the same path RS had. I say this as unlike RS during Gen III ORAS seems to be more or as popular as the Gen I and II remakes while RS weren't liked by Gen I or II fans as much...or even not at all...

mew_nani March 15th, 2015 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire (Post 8657638)
Right, they should've had it in ORAS for it to have worked. Btw I am the member Betty was talking about who pointed this out.

Anyways this is getting off topic so back to ORAS and 'History' repeating itself. I wouldn't say ORAS are repeating the same path RS had. I say this as unlike RS during Gen III ORAS seems to be more or as popular as the Gen I and II remakes while RS weren't liked by Gen I or II fans as much...or even not at all...

Before I finish the argument, they really should have implemented it in X and Y. X and Y should have had all the Mega Evolutions to begin with, with ORAS getting restrictions on which ones they can have. But at this point I don't even think Game Freak cares that much about continuity; they just gotta pump out those yearly Pokemon games, even when the game quality suffers for it.

With that said, I think the dissonance has to do with nostalgia. Back when R/S/E came out most people who played it grew up with R/B/Y and G/S/C, and they didn't like it because it wasn't as good as those games. The kids who grew up with R/S/E though liked it, and as the older fans became more sporadic the demand for an R/S/E remake grew, because they wanted the game they grew up with.

Personally I grew up in the third generation and loved the games to death, and you couldn't get me to play ORAS if you gave me a million dollars. To me, they changed too much of what made the originals great without adding anything in return, ironically much like the third gen games were like in comparison to Gen II.

BettyNewbie March 16th, 2015 11:05 AM

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Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657593)
It's a dang catch-22, as they're screwed no matter what they do. If they add more Pokemon, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they make remakes, they're in trouble. If they don't, they're in trouble. If they omit Mega Evolution they're in trouble, and if they add it they're in trouble. I wish Mega Evolution was never made a story point, because all the problems we're looking at are caused because Mega Evolution only exists in one timeline and does not exist in the others. They should have just made it a minor thing, and even then it would have caused problems because then we'd be asking why the villainous teams never use it.

This is one reason why I suspect that ORAS weren't originally planned to be remakes but instead, sequels. If GF knew from the start that they would be remaking RSE in Gen 6, I seriously doubt they would've set XY during B2W2's time.

From where they were going with XY, it would've made far more sense for ORAS to be sequels set during B2W2/XY's time, possibly also paired with a Virtual Console release of RSE. Then, they could've put Megas and Fairies in Hoenn without having to introduce another alternate timeline (which was mostly done in the first place to explain why Megas and Fairies were in Hoenn, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova), and the continuity of the games wouldn't have been nearly as broken.

If this was the case, it's unclear why GF scrapped the sequel plans for a remake (although, the 3DS's issues with emulating GBA games may have been a factor; without RSE fresh in memory and readily available, a sequel couldn't have worked nearly as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657642)
With that said, I think the dissonance has to do with nostalgia. Back when R/S/E came out most people who played it grew up with R/B/Y and G/S/C, and they didn't like it because it wasn't as good as those games. The kids who grew up with R/S/E though liked it, and as the older fans became more sporadic the demand for an R/S/E remake grew, because they wanted the game they grew up with.

Personally I grew up in the third generation and loved the games to death, and you couldn't get me to play ORAS if you gave me a million dollars. To me, they changed too much of what made the originals great without adding anything in return, ironically much like the third gen games were like in comparison to Gen II.

Another big thing that hurt RSE's popularity back in the day was the fact that they had the misfortune to come out right after the Pokémania Fad of the late 90s/early 00s died and a huge anti-Pokémon backlash started to set in. The entire franchise had become radioactive for anyone over the age of 10, which, alas, was how old most of the original fans were by 2002. Kids that age were expected to either move on to "mature" games like GTA or abandon video games altogether. (I, myself, became obsessed with the Sims.) To still be playing Pokémon at the age of 13 was to be wearing a giant "Kick me, I'm a dork!" sign on your back.

It started to change by the late 2000s when Pokémania reached its 10th anniversary and the original fans were all now 17-22 years old (a time when you start to care less about peer pressure and looking "grownup"). People started whipping their old cartridges out and getting nostalgic, and they were eventually rewarded in the form of HGSS. That exact same thing would eventually happen with the younger Gen 3-era fans later on, and ORAS were their reward.

RandomDSdevel March 16th, 2015 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 8657593)
…Problem is, D/P/Pl takes place a couple of months before HG/SS, which takes place 3 years after RSE and Fr/Lg. …

Actually, I'm pretty sure that D/P/Pt starts after the beginning of HG/SS since the former begins with a TV special showing the events that happen at the Lake of Rage in the latter.

KittiOcelotti March 16th, 2015 12:28 PM

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Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?
I'm a little late on the pokemon games and still haven't played X/Y and OR/AS yet. I thought that people was going to love OR/AS because it seemed liked a good game with all these new features and stuff. I wasn't that aware of the BC problem in R/S/E because its was my first game, but when I found out, I understood why older fans hated it. From all i've seen and heard from it, people either love it or hate it. Remakes are suppose to make things better, not worse. OR/AS doesn't deserve that much hate, at least not from the R/S/E fans. I think that the Dex Nav was a good feature, but the Pokemon News was completely useless. There is a feature that Even lets you can even trade pokemon from R/S/E!!

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ORAS made me realize that the Pokemon fanbase is really bad in general. It's actually related to the new Megas and not to the battle frontier.

Back when GameFreak announced that Gen 3 was going to have remakes, everyone was so excited, like I remember going on Pokemon Showdown and see lots of joke teams that featured 6 pokemon with Celebrate as their only move and their own alt being something such as "HOENN CONFIRMED" or "GEN 3 CONFIRMED". But now that ORAS is out everyone is complaining.
"WHY DID BEEDRILL, PIDGEOT AND GLALIE GET MEGAS??? WHY AUDINO, WHY SLOWBRO, WHY CAMERUPT, WHY FUCKING LOPUNNY OF ALL THINGS?! WHERE'S MY MEGA FLYGON AND MEGA MILOTIC???"
Yeah. You'll see crap like this on 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs as well as the comments to the official Pokemon videos. I know Pokemon is supposed to be for kids, but I bet most of the users who complained were at least 15. They need to thank GF for actually giving them a goddamn remake and not to act like the German kid we all know and love because they didn't get Mega Flygon. GF knows what's doing and gave mega evolutions both to fan favourites (looking at you, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Blastoise) AND to Pokemon that actually needed them, such as Beedrill, Glalie and Pidgeot. And honestly, they care about you. You wanted Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross? They gave you Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross. You wanted a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria? They gave you a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria. But all the Pokemon fanbase cares about is "WHY WATER/DARK MEGA GYARA, WHY DID GLALIE GET A MEGA AND NOT FROSLASS, HOW COME MEGA FLYGON/MILOTIC IS NOT A THING YET." I even saw some extremist comments such as "I'm done with Pokemon if they don't show us Mega Flygon" or "If Blissey gets a mega I'm gonna quit this game". Not kidding.
Not to mention everytime a powerful Pokemon (Salamence) gets a mega, they scream "WHY DO YOU MAKE OP POKEMON EVEN MORE OP" and when a Pokemon such as Audino gets a mega, they go "WHY FUCKING AUDINO OF ALL THINGS VOLCARONA NEEDS A FUCKING MEGA".
Pokemon like Dragonite didn't get megas

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I think that most (video game) fanbases have parts like this. They get really vocal about something they want. You give it to them. They get super-excited over news of the announcement of the thing they wanted. Then they bitch and whine about it after release because it didn't quite match every last little detail they wanted. They ask for the devs to innovate and try something new. The devs do that. Then they cry and scream because the devs "ruined" the game and it's "not [insert franchise here] anymore"......as if that's the mature way to do things. As if the game should be made to suit any one person's specific tastes.

Not saying that the entirety of any fanbase is like that, but there's a sizeable chunk of people like that in most of 'em. I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.
That was different for X/Y though

mew_nani March 16th, 2015 8:27 PM

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Originally Posted by RandomDSdevel (Post 8658449)
Actually, I'm pretty sure that D/P/Pt starts after the beginning of HG/SS since the former begins with a TV special showing the events that happen at the Lake of Rage in the latter.

I was led to believe it starts a few months before, as you can run into Jasmine in Sunnyshore, and the Red Gyarados broadcast was removed in Platinum and replaced with a report that Professor Rowan has returned from Kanto. Bulbapedia seems undecided on it, as supposedly the games are taking place at the same time, but Jasmine's dialogue sounds like she came there after HG/SS. The only thing that seems to be clear is that both games take place close together.

As for the Mega Evolutions... well it does seem strange that there's not very many new evolutions for Hoenn Pokemon. Instead they're for Pokemon obtainable in the Kalos region like Pidgeot and Beedrill. You'd figure there'd be some Mega Evolutions for more Hoenn Pokemon that can easily be found there, not Kalos natives.

Margaery Tyrell March 22nd, 2015 11:30 AM

That's kinda just how fandoms are, if there is a flaw or something a select group of people don't like, then it will be criticized and whatever they're complaining about will (not always, sometimes it really can be that bad) be exaggerated.


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