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-   -   Latest OU Suspect Test: Mega Metagross (voting results are in) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=343806)

Nah February 9th, 2015 1:16 PM

Latest OU Suspect Test: Mega Metagross (voting results are in)
 

Yeah so a couple of hours ago a suspect test for Mega Metagross was announced on Smogon:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-2-spider-man.3529407/

Thoughts people?

Foamster-Whiskey February 9th, 2015 1:37 PM

I love Mega Metagross, both attack, defense and both Sp. Attack and Sp. Defense makes it virtually unstoppable if used in the right way. How can anyone not like this pokemon, I understand if it's hard to beat but to have this on your team and have the right move set can potentially wipe out a whole team

Omicron February 9th, 2015 2:27 PM

I'm very glad it is getting a suspect test. It is virtually unstoppable if used in the right way. There are some checks, yeah, but including them in your team purely because of Megagross often results in poor synergy.

I mean, greninja pales in comparison of megagross's power and versatility.

I don't say this often, but I'm 100% in favor of a ban.

Pendraflare February 9th, 2015 2:28 PM

I don't know. I mean, it is pretty strong, but its typing was cut this generation with the nerf to Steel-types, and without Clear Body after it Mega Evolves it's prone to stuff like Intimidate and Sticky Web. But it does have a built in Life Orb for almost all its significant attacks save Earthquake, so I don't really know how this could end up going.

Tainers February 10th, 2015 5:05 AM

I actually have never seen mega metagross in OU but I feel like it has the same impact that mega lucario had. Just a sweeper that is tooo hard to stop.

Anti February 10th, 2015 6:32 AM

might as well give y'all my own thoughts, in the form of a pro/con.

PRO: uhhhhh nothing with any offensive presence can counter this thing lol?
CON: actually kinda mediocre vs. defensive builds

PRO: tons of resists and gr8 defenses, checks the numerous op fairies in the tier
CON: never invests in its defenses and has to run a -def/sdef nature to boost gk, iffier sdef pre-mega, prone to status and somewhat easy to wear down

PRO: can pursuit trap just to screw with you/abuse the latis
CON: then it's kinda easy to stop assuming you're running one of its passive af counters

PRO: meteor mash and zen headbutt have annoying hax side effects that can swing battles against well-prepped teams
CON: if they don't miss

PRO: hits a very cozy speed tier
CON: always screws you on the base 110 speed ties

PRO: can run agility which basically 6-0es the three people who run ho now
CON: agility doesn't help vs its defensive checks

PRO: so good that people stopped using mega gardevoir
CON: even harder to stop than mega gardevoir

PRO: wouldn't it be funny if this guy didn't get banned and it started running toxic or explosion or some other gimmick stuff just to screw with people?
CON: NO

PRO: stole machamp's "best mon with four arms" championship belt
CON: stole machamp's "best mon with four arms" championship belt

PRO: is being suspected tested, thank the lord
CON: was allowed in ou this long

so yeah probably gonna vote this uber too fast strong etc., biggest problem i have is that it's very difficult to both build for and play around (unless you're packing multiple checks then it's a lot easier) and while you could convince me that the meta-game (ha!) needs more time to adapt to it, i just think it's too strong even it's not mega salamence level.

also realtalk screw mm attack boosts they are the worst.

srinator February 10th, 2015 7:03 AM

Meta breaking meta deserves a ban hopefully not cause then my screwed up team gets more screwed up

But Yh it's fast and really powerful, stall has its answers for it but it's hard to stop if you are running offense builds etc.

Pendraflare February 10th, 2015 11:20 AM

It seems a handful of the arguments that say to keep it are that "Fairy-types will dominate the metagame otherwise" or that they're worried about what will happen without it present. That and the whole 4MSS argument which can also be given to Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence and Greninja.

Xairmo February 10th, 2015 2:27 PM

Greninja suffers from 4MSS? I believe that's already been fairly discredited pretty much from the get go of Gren's suspect testing discussion. I think Protean and his insane speed with respectable physical and special attacking power is what made him pretty much immune to 4MSS.

Anyway we're here for Meta, not Gren, though I will say I think Smogon is just a tad on the banhappy side these days. Personally I just haven't had much difficulty taking down a Mega Meta not have I ever been swept by one. His Steels lost resistance to Dark and Ghost really hurt it. His does have bulk, but he's far from the bulkiest and most any variations of him I've seen don't really invest in its bulk opting instead to invest in his speed and attack(s). I think he has become I bit more in the spotlight since the ban of Greninja, but I don't really see him as broken.

Dark Azelf February 11th, 2015 11:43 AM

Mega Meta needs banning.

Offenses answer is basically "Landorus-T"....lol....aka fail switch in.

It also forces you to use Skarm, Ferro (loses to Hammer Arm), Zong, Slowbro/King or fodder pokes to it every time. It can also trap stuff with Pursuit if it wishes so opens up sweeps or even use Grass Knot to remove bulky grounds and Slowbro. T-Punch is also very viable as is Ice Punch but thats kinda ass.

Also on the "smogon seems ban happy". That would be because megas are actual cancer and need a blanket ban or at least 90% of them need to go, its like allowing poorly disguised uber pokemon in OU. Most of them have better stats, ability and typing than uber pokemon sooooo. That and what are THE most banned things of gen 6 so far? Stupid op megas. This further backs up my point. Alot of them are low key broken and go under the radar too for example, mega Gardevoir which has less viable switch ins then mega metagross and basically kills stall if you dont run niche shit. I hate to be writing this, but mega Slowbro is basically a check to heavy offense because nothing kills it after a CM with ease and all its switch ins take like 50% from unboosted attacks lol. I dont think defensive threats are inherently a bad thing due to the ridiculous offensive threats this gen but seriously. Most of the megas are like this as i said, under the radar bs. I think anti sums it up well "ORAS is about 4/5 bans away from a good balanced metagame".

JJ Styles February 11th, 2015 12:08 PM

And I've always thought that this would never come to pass.. but if worse comes to worse then our fabled Fairy slaying Metal Gear would have leave the OU scene and let Fairies run rampant even more.

Dark Azelf February 11th, 2015 12:23 PM

There are a tonne of fairy checks though so i dont get this logic. Plus normal metagross is still usable even if mega gets banned so i mean you havent lost anything bar metas OP stone.

Yoshikko February 11th, 2015 3:29 PM

jirachi > fairies lol
tbh jirachi is my answer for everything, it usually survives one earth power from diancie and iron head ohko's so

Detox February 11th, 2015 6:17 PM

While I am happy that my boy Metagross was blessed with such an outstanding mega evolution, I will admit that it is pretty broken and I can’t blame anyone for being fed up with it. Though, as Anti said earlier, the vote will probably be a close one because a lot of players don’t actually see this thing as a problem. As far as my opinion goes, MegaGross is pretty insane. Tough Claws gives its two STABS of choice what is essentially a free Life Orb boost, it has 80 / 150 / 110 defenses, and also sits at a pretty good speed tier for something with its stat distribution. While no one may invest in its bulk, those defenses are more than enough for a sweeper to get by. Like I previously stated, I think the vote will be close, but I think Metagrossitite gets the ban.

Zeffy February 12th, 2015 2:29 AM

I don't get how some people don't think this guy is overpowered. Tough Claws + brilliant offensive stats + pretty good speed tier in itself is the whole reason why this guy can tear teams a new one. Without MMeta perhaps the tier can be less matchup oriented because i'm tired of the stupid team building restrictions that ORAS brought with it.

everyone should, imho, try to get reqs if they want mega metagross banned. anti has already pointed out that this might be a close vote, meaning that even 1 vote can actually make a difference because there's much less bandwagoning

Nah February 12th, 2015 5:35 AM

I suppose the reason why some people don't think that Mega Metagross is broken is because while it looks broken on paper it may or may not be broken in actual practice. This one guy said it pretty good in this post here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merritt
Imagine a mon with 700 BST. It has great coverage, fantastic attacking stats, and good bulk. Its ability is also good. It suffers from some shortcomings, but it has the ability to get past its counters with a different set. It can struggle with steel types since they resist its STABs, but it has a coverage move for them. It can also hold an item.

This Pokemon I just described is Kyurem-B, albeit in a way that makes it sound better than it is.

It's not a perfect comparison, but it's interesting anyway. I think we can all agree that Black Kyurem isn't broken lol.

But I'm not going to argue whether or not Mega Meta should be banned or not. I'm not skilled enough nor knowledgeable enough to make a well-informed decision about this. I just think that this reaction that some people are having (not saying anyone here but in general) of "omfg MMeta is so fucking broken why wasn't this shit suspected earlier omg the meta will be SO much better without it" is going a little overboard imo. I really doubt that the metagame will be that much better if Megagross gets the boot. Sure, there'll be one less problem, but the ORAS metagame will still have the same problems it's always had.

ramble ramble

Howmander February 12th, 2015 2:57 PM

I genuinely don't see why it's such a big threat all of a sudden, it's got exactly the same typing as before and therefore has all the same weaknesses it did before, it get's a paltry 10 base point boost to both attacks (translating to a maximum of 11 actual stat points at level 50) and 20 points to both defenses, and if it's up against something bulky that's slower than it anyway, the extra speed means nothing, if it was slower than metagross before it's STILL slower than mega metagross. If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb, sure, I would get that, but if it's just a normal metagross is 11 extra points to attack that big of a threat? Isn't that really more of the opponent trainer training their own pokemon so razor thin that the slightest change will defeat them?

Dark Azelf February 12th, 2015 3:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8616474)
I genuinely don't see why it's such a big threat all of a sudden, it's got exactly the same typing as before and therefore has all the same weaknesses it did before, it get's a paltry 10 base point boost to both attacks (translating to a maximum of 11 actual stat points at level 50) and 20 points to both defenses, and if it's up against something bulky that's slower than it anyway, the extra speed means nothing, if it was slower than metagross before it's STILL slower than mega metagross. If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb, sure, I would get that, but if it's just a normal metagross is 11 extra points to attack that big of a threat? Isn't that really more of the opponent trainer training their own pokemon so razor thin that the slightest change will defeat them?


You do realize you just outlined why its so good now right lol? You forgot tough claws and outspeeding most of the metgame though. The former is essentially a free life orb boost anyway.

Howmander February 12th, 2015 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8616489)
You do realize you just outlined why its so good now right lol? You forgot tough claws and outspeeding most of the metgame though. The former is essentially a free life orb boost anyway.

Exactly, so other than those measly 11 stat points, it's still not very much stronger than it's original form. It's only faster, and my earlier point already dealt with that: if it's going up against something bulkier and slower than it anyway, it doesn't matter if it gets a 9000% speed boost, both pokemon are still going in the same order they were going in originally anyway. If my mega swampert (my NON EV trained, 40 point SLOWER mega Swampert) can take down Steven's mega metagross in two hits, why is it such an indomitable opponent for people that ARE Ev training their pokemon? Yeah, the people using Mega MEtagross will also be EV training, however, again, mega metagross gets a paltry 11 stat point bonus to their attacks, if your pokemon are perfectly fine at 1 form, yet 11 points destroys your entire team, it's pretty obvious that everyone else isn't the problem.

Dark Azelf February 12th, 2015 3:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8616513)
Exactly, so other than those measly 11 stat points, it's still not very much stronger than it's original form. It's only faster, and my earlier point already dealt with that: if it's going up against something bulkier and slower than it anyway, it doesn't matter if it gets a 9000% speed boost, both pokemon are still going in the same order they were going in originally anyway. If my mega swampert (my NON EV trained, 40 point SLOWER mega Swampert) can take down Steven's mega metagross in two hits, why is it such an indomitable opponent for people that ARE Ev training their pokemon? Yeah, the people using Mega MEtagross will also be EV training, however, again, mega metagross gets a paltry 11 stat point bonus to their attacks, if your pokemon are perfectly fine at 1 form, yet 11 points destroys your entire team, it's pretty obvious that everyone else isn't the problem.

K so

1. In game "conquests" are irrelevant as is posting them in this forum and expecting people to take them seriously in a COMPETITIVE forum. Face real opponents.
2. Go look up what the ability "tough claws" does then you will realize why its that much stronger.
3. Go look up metagame speed tiers for oras and why outspeeding THINGS IT COULDNT BEFORE is relevant. Its not just walls and tanks.



edit: Tough Claws Zen Headbutt 2hkos mega Swampert and Tough Claws Grass Knot OHKOs.

Howmander February 12th, 2015 4:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8616522)
K so

1. In game "conquests" are irrelevant as is posting them in this forum and expecting people to take them seriously in a COMPETITIVE forum. Face real opponents.
2. Go look up what the ability "tough claws" does then you will realize why its that much stronger.
3. Go look up metagame speed tiers for oras why why outspeeding THINGS IT COULDNT BEFORE is relevant. Its not just walls and tanks.



edit: Tough Claws Zen Headbutt 2hkos mega Swampert and Tough Claws Grass Knot OHKOs.

1) did you skim read my post for key words? I clearly stated my NON EV trained Swampert against a NON EV trained Steven's Metagross to illustrate that non EV Trained against non EV trained would be the same as maxed IV/EV for the same pokemon because everything would get the same 94 points (31 IVs, 63 points from EV training) in the various stats they maxed out on because EVERY pokemon has exactly the same stats as every other pokemon of the same species and evolution, it's the IVs and Evs that change the stats, meaning (since you probably skim read that) an in game mega metagross with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs against an opponent with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs is going to be somewhat equal footing to a mega metagross with 31 IVs in every stat and properly EV trained if the one going against it also has 31 IVs in every stat and is also properly EV trained as, again, they all have teh same 31 IVs to negate each other's boosts and can potentially have the additonal 63 points in stats to negate the opponents mesed stats.

2) Go look up the post you quoted where I CLEARLY said: "If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb…" but a normal metagross with a life orb is the same as a mega metagross WITHOUT a life orb.

3) OMG speed means it can outspeed things?! I didn't know that! …well, except for that part that you quoted where I clearly stated "if it's going up against something bulkier and slower than it anyway, it doesn't matter if it gets a 9000% speed boost, both pokemon are still going in the same order they were going in originally anyway."

Its one thing to disagree with me, fine, but don't quote me when you make your points when I already addressed your point in the quote you're posting. I find that annoying because it just devolves into endlessly repeating the same thing over and over again because no one is reading what they are quoting.

Omicron February 12th, 2015 4:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8616542)
1) did you skim read my post for key words? I clearly stated my NON EV trained Swampert against a NON EV trained Steven's Metagross to illustrate that non EV Trained against non EV trained would be the same as maxed IV/EV for the same pokemon because everything would get the same 94 points (31 IVs, 63 points from EV training) in the various stats they maxed out on because EVERY pokemon has exactly the same stats as every other pokemon of the same species and evolution, it's the IVs and Evs that change the stats, meaning (since you probably skim read that) an in game mega metagross with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs against an opponent with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs is going to be somewhat equal footing to a mega metagross with 31 IVs in every stat and properly EV trained if the one going against it also has 31 IVs in every stat and is also properly EV trained as, again, they all have teh same 31 IVs to negate each other's boosts and can potentially have the additonal 63 points in stats to negate the opponents mesed stats.

2) Go look up the post you quoted where I CLEARLY said: "If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb…" but a normal metagross with a life orb is the same as a mega metagross WITHOUT a life orb.

3) OMG speed means it can outspeed things?! I didn't know that! …well, except for that part that you quoted where I clearly stated "if it's going up against something bulkier and slower than it anyway, it doesn't matter if it gets a 9000% speed boost, both pokemon are still going in the same order they were going in originally anyway."

Its one thing to disagree with me, fine, but don't quote me when you make your points when I already addressed your point in the quote you're posting. I find that annoying because it just devolves into endlessly repeating the same thing over and over again because no one is reading what they are quoting.

Except for the fact that Pokémon in game do have IVs and are not EV free. Battling any Pokémon will give you EVs, whether they follow a strict pattern, what we call EV training, or nor is a completely different thing. NPC's pokémon have randomized, or sometimes set (like the starter you receive from your rival in XY, 25 all along), IVs, just like every other non-bred Pokémon in the game.

Also, why bring up the fact that it outspeeds everything it already outsped as regular Metagross? That's not the point here. The point is that it is now faster than other threats and that of course matters. If MegaGross can OHKO your potential sweeper, or the offensive presence of your team before they can hit anything, well, then is when you know it is a problem.

Nah February 12th, 2015 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabinov (Post 8616576)
So back to the topic in hand; I think it will definitely be a close vote leaning towards no at the moment, although maybe we just need to invest into some special antimegagross mons like Tangela!

Wait people use Tangela to deal with Mega Meta?

wut

Polar Spectrum February 12th, 2015 11:03 PM

Just ban it then move on to talking about what gets banned next obviously

btw what does need to be banned next? Since all these bans make sense and we all understand the meta, we should be able to accurately predict what gets banned next. Right?




lol but seriously, it makes sense. Tough claws was a stellar ability to hand its mega, the stat increases are in proper areas for it to capitalize on them and not be locked into one thing, and even with steel nerf it's still got a great typing. The speed increase is also a dramatic effect, since that was one of its normal forms most blatant shortcomings. If y'all can't stand the other things that have gotten a ban, this one makes just as much sense to kick. Note- 'just as much sense' heh.

srinator February 13th, 2015 4:19 AM

You just suck but I hope all mega's get banned one day c:
Okay maybe not all, audino is cute,
Also I don't get why Skarm isn't as popular as it should be given meta's op'ness

Nah February 13th, 2015 5:32 AM

There's also the fact that Skarm can't do anything to Megagross besides phazing it out.

Anti February 13th, 2015 6:00 AM

hmmm so at the risk of "mini modding" (uhhh whatever lol) here's a friendly reminder that it takes two (or more) to tango in crapping up a thread so maybe getting into a comment war with someone who is very obviously unfamiliar with how tiering works is not the best idea.

so anyway, i found this post to be very useful. in particular i find the argument about assuming that bans are fundamentally bad or unfortunate to be a really important point. people often say smogon is "ban happy" but even when people get annoyed with a lack of bans (like d_a), there is no equivalent rhetoric because i think that assumption that bans are bad has been built into the collective psyche of competitive players. will expand on this later if i have time since i have lots to say.

(also, just for some mega meta-specific stuff, i would agree that it has a fair amount of defensive checks, but i'd find the argument more convincing if i heard more offensive checks. though i do think it's important to recognize the double standard that comes in tiering here - balance/offense breakers make everyone upset, but stall and slower balance having to dance around m garde is np? idg that)

Yoshikko February 13th, 2015 7:19 AM

i don't think many people (that is an understatement) on pc will get reqs to vote anyway so there's that lol
banning it wont do any harm to how the metagame is now that's my two cents, it's not like it's gonna unbalance anything else

Dark Azelf February 13th, 2015 8:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8617172)
There's also the fact that Skarm can't do anything to Megagross besides phazing it out.

Well Counter Skarmory was a rather common set on it last time i checked to pose a more immediate stop to things like that. You can also take the long drawn out route of setting up Spikes on it then Phazing or using Brave Bird and Roosting, the latter being shaky and only working vs EQ Gross cos if you Roost and Meta has enough Hammer Arm (used over EQ) speed drops you arent going to have a good time lol. (or SD/Curse Skarm LOL!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8617104)
You just suck but I hope all mega's get banned one day c:
Okay maybe not all, audino is cute,
Also I don't get why Skarm isn't as popular as it should be given meta's op'ness

Skarm isnt used more because its basically a stall pokemon and everyone uses balance, fail or bulky/heavy offense team styles and Skarm kills your offensive momentum unless you use uhhh SD Skarm lol. Stall as a play style doesnt particularly struggle with MMeta due to its best checks being stall based (Skarm, Bro, Ferro, etc) but thats irrelevant and doesnt stop it being broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8617197)
(also, just for some mega meta-specific stuff, i would agree that it has a fair amount of defensive checks, but i'd find the argument more convincing if i heard more offensive checks. though i do think it's important to recognize the double standard that comes in tiering here - balance/offense breakers make everyone upset, but stall and slower balance having to dance around m garde is np? idg that)

Agree. I think this lies in the fact of like i said above "not many people using stall so they dont care if shit beats it" which is totally the wrong way of achieving balance in a tier but i digress. I mean i dont particularly like using most offensive builds, i find it frail, doesnt fit my play style etc. But if a pokemon ripped it a new one id absolutely still vote it uber. I also feel this is why more attention hasnt been bought to Gothitelle and Shadow Tag tbh. In a nutshell If you want balance ALL play styles should be at least somewhat viable, end of and stuff that shits on one playstyle isnt healthy in achieving said balance.

Anyway i think we can all agree offenses best answer is basically "Lando-T" or fodder team and revenge kill MMeta pmuch neither of which are good lol.

Pendraflare February 14th, 2015 8:09 AM

I also think that post presented is right, because after Mega Salamence got banned, Greninja was next, and now Mega Metagross is on the stand. I'm under the mindset that regardless of what gets banned or what stays, something will be there that dominates the metagame and owns it regardless of what you do. As people have said, Fairy-types could get more rampant if Mega Metagross gets the boot.

Zeffy February 14th, 2015 9:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8618450)
As people have said, Fairy-types could get more rampant if Mega Metagross gets the boot.

Somehow I don't see this happening. Fairy-types were already a thing before the introduction of Mega Metagross, and the metagame wasn't centralized because of their presence. The only relevant Fairy-types in OU are Mega Diancie (and maybe regular Diancie), Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Clefable, Klefki, maybe Sylveon, aaaaaand maybe Togekiss. These aren't particularly centralizing 'mons (except perhaps Mega Garde, but that might be another topic entirely), and there are still plenty of things that can reliably stop Fairies.

Dark Azelf February 14th, 2015 10:03 AM

Also the slippery slope argument is kinda a fallacy. There will be a certain point where all the bullshit mons get the boot and we will achieve a somewhat balanced metagame and everyone is somewhat happy. Obviously there still willbe the one or two noobs who think shit like Porygon2 is broken, but those people wont be listened to because its the mostly the entire community that has to feel something is broken for it to be tested, but i digress. It has happened before when all the suspects were banned. Think gen 4 uu or pre Latias post Salamence ban gen 4 OU as a precedent for this. Those were essentially the most balanced metagames in recent memory. All play styles were viable, nothing really stood out as "click STAB move button and foe fodders pokes because its op as fuck" and you actually had to use skill to open up sweeps.

Also stop saying "fairies will be op when mmeta goes". Whats stopping you from using normal metagross, are things like mega scizor, bronzong, Jirachi, skarm, ferro, Heatran etc suddenly irrelevant now? You dont actually lose anything from a MMeta ban so frankly that assumption is redic. Obviously Mega Gardy is another story because frankly that has less switch ins than mmeta itself apart from niche, largely otherwise mediocre, momentum killer pokemon, but again i digress.

Pendraflare February 14th, 2015 10:58 AM

Pardon my getting off-topic here, but i've heard rumblings about Mega Gardevoir being super strong. I know it gets STAB Psyshock along with Hyper Voice boosted by Pixilate, but what does it have aside from that that makes it so great again?

Nah February 14th, 2015 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8618616)
Pardon my getting off-topic here, but i've heard rumblings about Mega Gardevoir being super strong. I know it gets STAB Psyshock along with Hyper Voice boosted by Pixilate, but what does it have aside from that that makes it so great again?

Hyper Voice basically shreds what doesn't resist it, and most of what does is beaten by Psyshock (which is great so it's not so easily walled) and Focus Miss, especially if rocks are up, so very few things want to switch into Mega Garde.

If you use this: http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/calc_bc.html?mode=one-vs-all

and put Mega Gardevoir (OU Offensive) as the "One", you'll see that the only things not annihilated by Garde are like Bronzong, Chansey (sorta), and Jirachi and a couple of other things the calculator probably didn't put in.

Also Taunt lets it screw with stall, while Will-o-Wisp can be used to cripple physically offensive threats that could possibly scare it.

Khaotic Kebab February 14th, 2015 4:39 PM

I see most OU Pokèmon as cheap, but this takes it to a new level.

Zeffy February 14th, 2015 7:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaotic Kebab (Post 8618893)
I see most OU Pokèmon as cheap, but this takes it to a new level.

Uhm, would you care to elaborate?

Khaotic Kebab February 14th, 2015 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8619034)
Uhm, would you care to elaborate?

No. No I wouldn't. It'd just start an argument.

halcyonic February 14th, 2015 11:16 PM

massive facepalm x-x

if you won't even care to elaborate, why did you even bring up the case of 'pokemon in ou being cheap & whatnot' anyway :/

simple discussions and debates are always acceptable, as long as they make sense. no offense but your 'rant thread' was full of poor assumptions, let's try avoiding more stuff like that ya? ;x

Zeffy February 15th, 2015 1:23 AM

PROTIP: We may be forced to accept opinions as a sign of respect, but that does not make your opinion automatically right.

Anyway, this thread is becoming very toxic so this is a final warning to everyone: if you're not going to post something relevant to the thread topic then don't post anything at all. That is all, thanks! :)

---

To those who has been on the suspect ladder, how was it? I haven't gotten the chance to hop on it yet because I've been busy working on school stuff. :(

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 12:50 PM

Maybe facing a MMeta is what separates the men from the boys.

This thing has a positive effect on the metagame and I don't think it should be banned.

Nah February 20th, 2015 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmourPearlShipper (Post 8626219)
Maybe facing a MMeta is what separates the men from the boys.

This thing has a positive effect on the metagame and I don't think it should be banned.

How exactly does it have a positive effect on the meta?

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 1:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8626222)
How exactly does it have a positive effect on the meta?

It punishes fairy/dragon spam, deals with bulky offense teams really well and blocks Mega Diancie/Gardevoir, which I think is good for the meta.

MMeta is very close to being broken, but it does have a decent amount of counters, such as (Mega) Slowbro, Mega Scizor and Skarmory. And many things can check it, though admittedly some of them need a scarf to do it (Hydreigon, Lando-T).

Pendraflare February 20th, 2015 2:35 PM

Well that is true, but not many of those "scarf" checks can really switch in - they'd have to revenge kill it. And I don't think either of those two OHKO Mega Metagross, although it'd need Ice Punch or Hammer Arm to finish them respectively (and admittedly, Landorus-T's Intimidate doesn't help).

Nah February 20th, 2015 2:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8626333)
Well that is true, but not many of those "scarf" checks can really switch in - they'd have to revenge kill it.

Yeah that's kinda what a check is. It can't switch in on the opposing poke, but if you get it in safely somehow or after something dies, it can usually kill it/force it out. A counter's one that can switch in without a problem.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 2:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8626333)
Well that is true, but not many of those "scarf" checks can really switch in - they'd have to revenge kill it. And I don't think either of those two OHKO Mega Metagross, although it'd need Ice Punch or Hammer Arm to finish them respectively (and admittedly, Landorus-T's Intimidate doesn't help).

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Free switch does not mean it can manually switch in - a check can either switch in after one of its teammates has fainted, through Volt Switch or U-turn, Memento, Healing Wish or double switching.

Pinkie-Dawn February 21st, 2015 11:15 AM

I've been hearing controversy from /vp/, regarding Mega Metagross's suspect test, that hundreds of anti-ban votes are either deleted by Smogon mods for being "off-topic" or the person casting their vote had their right to vote revoked for zero reason except for disagreeing with Smogon. A similar scenario happened with Mega Mawile and Aegislash. These same anti-ban players also agree that while Mega Metagross is a solid pick in OU, it's not enough for him to get banned.

2Fruit February 21st, 2015 12:07 PM

Could someone do a quick calc to see how much damage a Mandibuzz foul play does to Metagross? I don't know where to do it.

Nah February 21st, 2015 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8627370)
I've been hearing controversy from /vp/, regarding Mega Metagross's suspect test, that hundreds of anti-ban votes are either deleted by Smogon mods for being "off-topic" or the person casting their vote had their right to vote revoked for zero reason except for disagreeing with Smogon. A similar scenario happened with Mega Mawile and Aegislash. These same anti-ban players also agree that while Mega Metagross is a solid pick in OU, it's not enough for him to get banned.

Yeah, I've heard people say that before. I wouldn't know if it's even remotely true or not, since I don't have a Smogon account nor do I lurk their forum much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvanGalea (Post 8627450)
Could someone do a quick calc to see how much damage a Mandibuzz foul play does to Metagross? I don't know where to do it.

If it has a Hasty nature:
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

If it's Jolly:
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the calculator I used:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

Polar Spectrum February 22nd, 2015 5:07 PM

Wholly miltank

What's Mega Metagross' best response to a mandibuzz? Thunder / Ice punch? Someone run calcs on a physical bulk Mandibuzz; pls.

And despite the ban making sense (said before) - I'll throw my 2 bits in the 'doesn't need to be banned' direction still.

Nah February 22nd, 2015 5:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8629516)
Wholly miltank

What's Mega Metagross' best response to a mandibuzz? Thunder / Ice punch? Someone run calcs on a physical bulk Mandibuzz; pls.

And despite the ban making sense (said before) - I'll throw my 2 bits in the 'doesn't need to be banned' direction still.

It comes out to this:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Though with rocks up:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Polar Spectrum February 22nd, 2015 5:49 PM

^ Thanks for that; definitely something I forgot to consider actually - the super effective stab foul play off its own attack. Lawl. Please; somebody - get a replay where a poocheyna with focus sash takes down mega metagross with foul play. Please.

Zeffy February 22nd, 2015 6:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8627370)
I've been hearing controversy from /vp/, regarding Mega Metagross's suspect test, that hundreds of anti-ban votes are either deleted by Smogon mods for being "off-topic" or the person casting their vote had their right to vote revoked for zero reason except for disagreeing with Smogon.

Voting has not yet started so this is obviously false. I wouldn't trust 4chan to be very honest, especially since they're known for causing unneeded tension allover the internet. :x

Pendraflare February 22nd, 2015 6:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8629549)
^ Thanks for that; definitely something I forgot to consider actually - the super effective stab foul play off its own attack. Lawl. Please; somebody - get a replay where a poocheyna with focus sash takes down mega metagross with foul play. Please.

Oh my god that'd be the funniest thing ever x3

But yeah, Mandibuzz would need Stealth Rock off the field to be mindful of it, and Metagross would have to be Mega Evolved before it comes out.

Zeffy March 7th, 2015 4:56 AM

So MMetagross stays in OU.

It was really close though. 2.7% away from supermajority. This was expected (the close votes, to be precise), to be honest. Your thoughts?

Nah March 7th, 2015 4:59 AM

Whoa, it really didn't get enough votes to get banned? Was really expecting it to get banned cuz everything that's been suspected in OU this gen has been banned. So I guess we'll see how things go now....

Zeffy March 7th, 2015 5:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8645557)
Was really expecting it to get banned cuz everything that's been suspected in OU this gen has been banned.

Previous suspect test results aren't exactly the best basis in determining the result of future suspect tests, you know.

I guess Mega Gardevoir isn't going to make it's major debut after all.

Nah March 7th, 2015 5:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8645559)
Previous suspect test results aren't exactly the best basis in determining the result of future suspect tests, you know.

Yeah, I know. It's just that the majority of people seemed so adamant about banning it and when everything else previously suspected in OU this gen has been banned, what seemed to be the most likely outcome was Mega Meta getting banned. Thought that the ban-train wasn't gonna end quite yet. But it did.

Detox March 7th, 2015 5:41 AM

I pretty much figured that the decision would be close either way it went. This was probably somewhat influenced by people bandwagoning the (bad) argument that if MegaGross was banned, the metagame would be dominated by fairy types...which just simply is not true lol. Either way, I’m eehhhh on it staying, and I think I would have preferred the metagame more if it was gone. It’s all good though, It will be suspect tested again and booted out of the tier.

Now about Mega Slowbro...

Pendraflare March 7th, 2015 5:50 AM

Oh boy. This was one I really thought could go either way, and it turned out to be the one that keeps it here. Mega Metagross is one that has answers to it, although I was expecting it to get the boot in the long run. So let's see what happens as it remains here.

srinator March 7th, 2015 7:23 AM

i think landorus deserves a suspect before slowbro, but hnnnnnnnnng slowbro.
also i am p sure they will have to suspect mmeta again in the future.

Anti March 7th, 2015 8:06 AM

just gonna say i predicted this go me go me i am great etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8645671)
i think landorus deserves a suspect before slowbro, but hnnnnnnnnng slowbro.
also i am p sure they will have to suspect mmeta again in the future.

really agree about another suspect when there is a ton of precedent for that very thing (dpp latias being an obvious example, but shaymin-s, garchomp, and manaphy also got multiple tests) and i think this is a mon that is plenty broken such that the 57% pro-ban majority isn't just going to go away. even so, for the time being, the process is the process, and for all we know the metagame could better adapt to meta. not like i see it happening, but whatever.

anyway as for other mons i definitely want mega slowbro around if mega metagross is going to be (broken checking broken but metagross is way worse), landorus is suspect worthy but i'm not sold on its ban by any stretch. mega sableye's bandwagon has collapsed but that's probably a suspect worthy mon in a lebron-like transition where it gets shat on so much that its perception actually underrates it a bit, which will almost certainly reverse at some point (as it did with lebron).

#basketballanalogies

anyway yeah this mon was not only borked but it's like the 16th most used mon in ou but the single best/most powerful. i would probably be less annoyed about building for it to insane degrees if it showed up on more than 1/8 of teams but yolo. effing mega evolutions man lol

Pendraflare March 7th, 2015 10:04 AM

Oh great, people think Mega Slowbro might get the check next? Although that monster Defense is worth noting, and unlike Steelix and Aggron, has feasible Special Defense to back it up at least since it can learn Calm Mind. (And no critical hits don't help...)

PlatinumDude March 7th, 2015 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8645843)
Oh great, people think Mega Slowbro might get the check next? Although that monster Defense is worth noting, and unlike Steelix and Aggron, has feasible Special Defense to back it up at least since it can learn Calm Mind. (And no critical hits don't help...)

Mega Slowbro's (unboosted) Special Defense is equal to Mega Aggron's and lower than Mega Steelix's. The latter two can also afford to go specially defensive, as they have good special resistances.

skyburial March 7th, 2015 11:35 AM

As a Mega Slowbro user, I'd be bummed if I didn't get to keep using it in Prism League, but as a wall, it's stupid difficult to break unless you happen to run Gastrodon, Cradily, or something else with Storm Drain. Oh, and Zekrom beat mine with Serperior once I think.

I wonder how it would do as a Wonder Room sometimes (singles only though)

Dark Azelf March 7th, 2015 1:37 PM

I dont think there is a strong enough pro ban camp enough for Slowbro mega.

Honestly it has its issues (status, strong special attackers still annihilating even it after a cm, stuff like CB Tar and grass types exist still so its kinda your fault for not running one/some of these things plus it has shit coverage if you use CroBro lol.) i feel its actually good for the metagame in that it counter balances offense in some ways, the same with Sableye. Defensive teams do not have alot to play with this gen so i honestly feel mega bro is healthy (as far as megas go >_>) in that it forces offense to actually adapt to something without just mindlessly spamming pokemon with move which it usually does, same with mega Sableye. Heaven forbid offence has to THINK when teambuilding about strong defensive threats! Its crit blocking i feel is also healthy for the meta because unlike Suicune, you cant noobishly spam moves and hope they crit eventually which is hilariously what people actually do and just get crushed. It kinda reminds me of people who bawww about Mega Sable because their whole team is wisp weak and set up bait for it and dont have fairies, counters, status moves that bypass mbounce see; scald and plume or even pokemon to absorb its wisp like Tran and Talon or pokemon that cream it like Sub Mind keld etc. Again, its your fault for not using checks/counters to it and last time i checked these were all standard on offensive teams soooo lol.

Yoshikko March 7th, 2015 1:40 PM

what DA said. and besides what? there are other megas that are way more needed of a ban than mega slowbro. you cant ban mega slowbro and still have gardevoir and metagross and diancie around lol imo the order should be metagross, gardevoir, diancie, slowbro~sableye if sableye even. that one's kind of on the border for me.

Anti March 7th, 2015 2:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8646016)
I dont think there is a strong enough pro ban camp enough for Slowbro mega.

Honestly it has its issues (status, strong special attackers still annihilating even it after a cm, stuff like CB Tar and grass types exist still so its kinda your fault for not running one/some of these things plus it has muk coverage if you use CroBro lol.) i feel its actually good for the metagame in that it counter balances offense in some ways, the same with Sableye. Defensive teams do not have alot to play with this gen so i honestly feel mega bro is healthy (as far as megas go >_>) in that it forces offense to actually adapt to something without just mindlessly spamming pokemon with move which it usually does, same with mega Sableye. Heaven forbid offence has to THINK when teambuilding about strong defensive threats! Its crit blocking i feel is also healthy for the meta because unlike Suicune, you cant noobishly spam moves and hope they crit eventually which is hilariously what people actually do and just get crushed. It kinda reminds me of people who bawww about Mega Sable because their whole team is wisp weak and set up bait for it and dont have fairies, counters, status moves that bypass mbounce see; scald and plume or even pokemon to absorb its wisp like Tran and Talon or pokemon that cream it like Sub Mind keld etc. Again, its your fault for not using checks/counters to it and last time i checked these were all standard on offensive teams soooo lol.

this is all true but mega slowbro is an offensive threat as much as a defensive one, and most of its checks are very easy to wear down. idg how we got to mega bro though cause as much as i dislike it (i just think it's the epitome of a matchup mon) there are bigger issues starting with the pokemon this thread is about.

in any case, might as well see how the meta adapts in the meantime. i've enjoyed running mega bro but i will definitely brush off my old mmeta build. :) pursuit is insane on it btw, glad i'm here go me.

champagnepapi March 7th, 2015 2:22 PM

i am very optimistic about a potential landorus suspect test, it doesn't have any beneficial effect on the metagame and a large number of people support its ban, so hopefully he is suspected in the near future

happy about metagross avoiding a ban as well

Dark Azelf March 7th, 2015 2:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer99 (Post 8646028)
Gardy needs to go as soon as the stall threat megas get the ban, if you ask me.

As highlighted in my previous post, this is mostly a failure to adapt because both of them have ALOT of checks and counters. Most of which are commonplace on offensive AND defensive teams.

I honestly cant see how the stall megas need testing before mega gardy. That is actually redic. Gardy literally has about 3 switch ins and 2 of those arent very viable and get wasted by wisp anyway so i mean lol.

Yoshikko March 7th, 2015 3:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8646069)
As highlighted in my previous post, this is mostly a failure to adapt because both of them have ALOT of checks and counters. Most of which are commonplace on offensive AND defensive teams.

I honestly cant see how the stall megas need testing before mega gardy. That is actually redic. Gardy literally has about 3 switch ins and 2 of those arent very viable and get wasted by wisp anyway so i mean lol.

the only switch-in to gardevoir that i have (and abundantly use lol) is jirachi and what is the other one? bronzong? i mean it really is op
also karp you were anti-ban? disappoint :(

Dark Azelf March 7th, 2015 4:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshikko (Post 8646140)
the only switch-in to gardevoir that i have (and abundantly use lol) is jirachi and what is the other one? bronzong? i mean it really is op
also karp you were anti-ban? disappoint :(

Jira, Zong, Doublade, Sp.Def Forretress and Wish Protect Toxic Delphox are as near good counters/checks as you're gonna get. 3 of them get ruined by Wisp. Doublade runs rest and Delphox is immune....sooo lol.

Toxic Chansey can check it once but hates CM Physhocks and Taunt.

champagnepapi March 7th, 2015 4:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshikko (Post 8646140)
the only switch-in to gardevoir that i have (and abundantly use lol) is jirachi and what is the other one? bronzong? i mean it really is op
also karp you were anti-ban? disappoint :(


mega scizor is the other, but yeah switchins to M-Gardevoir are really uncommon, another reason why I like Metagross staying, in addition to making SpDef SD Glisc have an additional cost for using it

KorpiklaaniVodka March 8th, 2015 2:02 AM

The thing is that most of the things said about an eventual Mega Gardevoir ban apply to almost any stallbreaker. Kyurem-B also dismantled stall teams (read: purely passive stall teams) in BW, but it was OK. How about we suspect Heracross, Crawdaunt, Exploud, Haxorus and Lando-I (which probably needs a suspect anyway), because they eat stall alive as well except for one or two pokemon they can't beat. Actually, we may as well quickban Rampardos since that thing has NO switch-ins.

Yoshikko March 8th, 2015 4:08 AM

exploud eats orphans so it should be banned imo

Anti March 8th, 2015 7:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmourPearlShipper (Post 8646697)
The thing is that most of the things said about an eventual Mega Gardevoir ban apply to almost any stallbreaker. Kyurem-B also dismantled stall teams (read: purely passive stall teams) in BW, but it was OK. How about we suspect Heracross, Crawdaunt, Exploud, Haxorus and Lando-I (which probably needs a suspect anyway), because they eat stall alive as well except for one or two pokemon they can't beat. Actually, we may as well quickban Rampardos since that thing has NO switch-ins.

Let's not create dangerous precedents and try to suspect stuff just because it hits extremely hard. Just as Heracross and Exploud get blocked by Clefable and Chansey respectively, M-Gardy gets blocked by Bronzong, Jirachi and Victini.

hmmm, if i may paraphrase the emperor, the slippery slope fallacy is strooooooong with you.

KorpiklaaniVodka March 8th, 2015 7:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8646919)
hmmm, if i may paraphrase the emperor, the slippery slope fallacy is strooooooong with you.

well at least i learned some logic from you.

Void. March 9th, 2015 4:05 AM

tbh if you take a look at the voting thread, many of those who voted 'do not ban' were those who got voting reqs with gxes in the 70s, and if you tally the votes of those who had gxes over 80 such as myself, you'd probably be looking at a much different outcome.

I really think suspect tests should have an added requirement that you must at least have a gxe of 80 to vote, 75 at the very least. if you're a semi-decent player you should be able to achieve at least that much, with the current system we have players who have absolutely no idea what they're doing but manage to get reqs with a horrible win-loss record by doing an insane amount (200-300) of battles.


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