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Latest OU Suspect Test: Mega Metagross (voting results are in)
Yeah so a couple of hours ago a suspect test for Mega Metagross was announced on Smogon: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-2-spider-man.3529407/ Thoughts people? |
I love Mega Metagross, both attack, defense and both Sp. Attack and Sp. Defense makes it virtually unstoppable if used in the right way. How can anyone not like this pokemon, I understand if it's hard to beat but to have this on your team and have the right move set can potentially wipe out a whole team
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I'm very glad it is getting a suspect test. It is virtually unstoppable if used in the right way. There are some checks, yeah, but including them in your team purely because of Megagross often results in poor synergy.
I mean, greninja pales in comparison of megagross's power and versatility. I don't say this often, but I'm 100% in favor of a ban. |
I don't know. I mean, it is pretty strong, but its typing was cut this generation with the nerf to Steel-types, and without Clear Body after it Mega Evolves it's prone to stuff like Intimidate and Sticky Web. But it does have a built in Life Orb for almost all its significant attacks save Earthquake, so I don't really know how this could end up going.
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I actually have never seen mega metagross in OU but I feel like it has the same impact that mega lucario had. Just a sweeper that is tooo hard to stop.
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might as well give y'all my own thoughts, in the form of a pro/con.
PRO: uhhhhh nothing with any offensive presence can counter this thing lol? CON: actually kinda mediocre vs. defensive builds PRO: tons of resists and gr8 defenses, checks the numerous op fairies in the tier CON: never invests in its defenses and has to run a -def/sdef nature to boost gk, iffier sdef pre-mega, prone to status and somewhat easy to wear down PRO: can pursuit trap just to screw with you/abuse the latis CON: then it's kinda easy to stop assuming you're running one of its passive af counters PRO: meteor mash and zen headbutt have annoying hax side effects that can swing battles against well-prepped teams CON: if they don't miss PRO: hits a very cozy speed tier CON: always screws you on the base 110 speed ties PRO: can run agility which basically 6-0es the three people who run ho now CON: agility doesn't help vs its defensive checks PRO: so good that people stopped using mega gardevoir CON: even harder to stop than mega gardevoir PRO: wouldn't it be funny if this guy didn't get banned and it started running toxic or explosion or some other gimmick stuff just to screw with people? CON: NO PRO: stole machamp's "best mon with four arms" championship belt CON: stole machamp's "best mon with four arms" championship belt PRO: is being suspected tested, thank the lord CON: was allowed in ou this long so yeah probably gonna vote this uber too fast strong etc., biggest problem i have is that it's very difficult to both build for and play around (unless you're packing multiple checks then it's a lot easier) and while you could convince me that the meta-game (ha!) needs more time to adapt to it, i just think it's too strong even it's not mega salamence level. also realtalk screw mm attack boosts they are the worst. |
Meta breaking meta deserves a ban hopefully not cause then my screwed up team gets more screwed up
But Yh it's fast and really powerful, stall has its answers for it but it's hard to stop if you are running offense builds etc. |
It seems a handful of the arguments that say to keep it are that "Fairy-types will dominate the metagame otherwise" or that they're worried about what will happen without it present. That and the whole 4MSS argument which can also be given to Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence and Greninja.
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Greninja suffers from 4MSS? I believe that's already been fairly discredited pretty much from the get go of Gren's suspect testing discussion. I think Protean and his insane speed with respectable physical and special attacking power is what made him pretty much immune to 4MSS.
Anyway we're here for Meta, not Gren, though I will say I think Smogon is just a tad on the banhappy side these days. Personally I just haven't had much difficulty taking down a Mega Meta not have I ever been swept by one. His Steels lost resistance to Dark and Ghost really hurt it. His does have bulk, but he's far from the bulkiest and most any variations of him I've seen don't really invest in its bulk opting instead to invest in his speed and attack(s). I think he has become I bit more in the spotlight since the ban of Greninja, but I don't really see him as broken. |
Mega Meta needs banning.
Offenses answer is basically "Landorus-T"....lol....aka fail switch in. It also forces you to use Skarm, Ferro (loses to Hammer Arm), Zong, Slowbro/King or fodder pokes to it every time. It can also trap stuff with Pursuit if it wishes so opens up sweeps or even use Grass Knot to remove bulky grounds and Slowbro. T-Punch is also very viable as is Ice Punch but thats kinda ass. Also on the "smogon seems ban happy". That would be because megas are actual cancer and need a blanket ban or at least 90% of them need to go, its like allowing poorly disguised uber pokemon in OU. Most of them have better stats, ability and typing than uber pokemon sooooo. That and what are THE most banned things of gen 6 so far? Stupid op megas. This further backs up my point. Alot of them are low key broken and go under the radar too for example, mega Gardevoir which has less viable switch ins then mega metagross and basically kills stall if you dont run niche shit. I hate to be writing this, but mega Slowbro is basically a check to heavy offense because nothing kills it after a CM with ease and all its switch ins take like 50% from unboosted attacks lol. I dont think defensive threats are inherently a bad thing due to the ridiculous offensive threats this gen but seriously. Most of the megas are like this as i said, under the radar bs. I think anti sums it up well "ORAS is about 4/5 bans away from a good balanced metagame". |
And I've always thought that this would never come to pass.. but if worse comes to worse then our fabled Fairy slaying Metal Gear would have leave the OU scene and let Fairies run rampant even more.
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There are a tonne of fairy checks though so i dont get this logic. Plus normal metagross is still usable even if mega gets banned so i mean you havent lost anything bar metas OP stone.
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jirachi > fairies lol
tbh jirachi is my answer for everything, it usually survives one earth power from diancie and iron head ohko's so |
While I am happy that my boy Metagross was blessed with such an outstanding mega evolution, I will admit that it is pretty broken and I can’t blame anyone for being fed up with it. Though, as Anti said earlier, the vote will probably be a close one because a lot of players don’t actually see this thing as a problem. As far as my opinion goes, MegaGross is pretty insane. Tough Claws gives its two STABS of choice what is essentially a free Life Orb boost, it has 80 / 150 / 110 defenses, and also sits at a pretty good speed tier for something with its stat distribution. While no one may invest in its bulk, those defenses are more than enough for a sweeper to get by. Like I previously stated, I think the vote will be close, but I think Metagrossitite gets the ban.
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I don't get how some people don't think this guy is overpowered. Tough Claws + brilliant offensive stats + pretty good speed tier in itself is the whole reason why this guy can tear teams a new one. Without MMeta perhaps the tier can be less matchup oriented because i'm tired of the stupid team building restrictions that ORAS brought with it.
everyone should, imho, try to get reqs if they want mega metagross banned. anti has already pointed out that this might be a close vote, meaning that even 1 vote can actually make a difference because there's much less bandwagoning |
I suppose the reason why some people don't think that Mega Metagross is broken is because while it looks broken on paper it may or may not be broken in actual practice. This one guy said it pretty good in this post here:
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But I'm not going to argue whether or not Mega Meta should be banned or not. I'm not skilled enough nor knowledgeable enough to make a well-informed decision about this. I just think that this reaction that some people are having (not saying anyone here but in general) of "omfg MMeta is so fucking broken why wasn't this shit suspected earlier omg the meta will be SO much better without it" is going a little overboard imo. I really doubt that the metagame will be that much better if Megagross gets the boot. Sure, there'll be one less problem, but the ORAS metagame will still have the same problems it's always had. ramble ramble |
I genuinely don't see why it's such a big threat all of a sudden, it's got exactly the same typing as before and therefore has all the same weaknesses it did before, it get's a paltry 10 base point boost to both attacks (translating to a maximum of 11 actual stat points at level 50) and 20 points to both defenses, and if it's up against something bulky that's slower than it anyway, the extra speed means nothing, if it was slower than metagross before it's STILL slower than mega metagross. If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb, sure, I would get that, but if it's just a normal metagross is 11 extra points to attack that big of a threat? Isn't that really more of the opponent trainer training their own pokemon so razor thin that the slightest change will defeat them?
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You do realize you just outlined why its so good now right lol? You forgot tough claws and outspeeding most of the metgame though. The former is essentially a free life orb boost anyway. |
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1. In game "conquests" are irrelevant as is posting them in this forum and expecting people to take them seriously in a COMPETITIVE forum. Face real opponents. 2. Go look up what the ability "tough claws" does then you will realize why its that much stronger. 3. Go look up metagame speed tiers for oras and why outspeeding THINGS IT COULDNT BEFORE is relevant. Its not just walls and tanks. edit: Tough Claws Zen Headbutt 2hkos mega Swampert and Tough Claws Grass Knot OHKOs. |
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2) Go look up the post you quoted where I CLEARLY said: "If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb…" but a normal metagross with a life orb is the same as a mega metagross WITHOUT a life orb. 3) OMG speed means it can outspeed things?! I didn't know that! …well, except for that part that you quoted where I clearly stated "if it's going up against something bulkier and slower than it anyway, it doesn't matter if it gets a 9000% speed boost, both pokemon are still going in the same order they were going in originally anyway." Its one thing to disagree with me, fine, but don't quote me when you make your points when I already addressed your point in the quote you're posting. I find that annoying because it just devolves into endlessly repeating the same thing over and over again because no one is reading what they are quoting. |
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Also, why bring up the fact that it outspeeds everything it already outsped as regular Metagross? That's not the point here. The point is that it is now faster than other threats and that of course matters. If MegaGross can OHKO your potential sweeper, or the offensive presence of your team before they can hit anything, well, then is when you know it is a problem. |
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wut |
Just ban it then move on to talking about what gets banned next obviously
btw what does need to be banned next? Since all these bans make sense and we all understand the meta, we should be able to accurately predict what gets banned next. Right? lol but seriously, it makes sense. Tough claws was a stellar ability to hand its mega, the stat increases are in proper areas for it to capitalize on them and not be locked into one thing, and even with steel nerf it's still got a great typing. The speed increase is also a dramatic effect, since that was one of its normal forms most blatant shortcomings. If y'all can't stand the other things that have gotten a ban, this one makes just as much sense to kick. Note- 'just as much sense' heh. |
You just suck but I hope all mega's get banned one day c:
Okay maybe not all, audino is cute, Also I don't get why Skarm isn't as popular as it should be given meta's op'ness |
There's also the fact that Skarm can't do anything to Megagross besides phazing it out.
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hmmm so at the risk of "mini modding" (uhhh whatever lol) here's a friendly reminder that it takes two (or more) to tango in crapping up a thread so maybe getting into a comment war with someone who is very obviously unfamiliar with how tiering works is not the best idea.
so anyway, i found this post to be very useful. in particular i find the argument about assuming that bans are fundamentally bad or unfortunate to be a really important point. people often say smogon is "ban happy" but even when people get annoyed with a lack of bans (like d_a), there is no equivalent rhetoric because i think that assumption that bans are bad has been built into the collective psyche of competitive players. will expand on this later if i have time since i have lots to say. (also, just for some mega meta-specific stuff, i would agree that it has a fair amount of defensive checks, but i'd find the argument more convincing if i heard more offensive checks. though i do think it's important to recognize the double standard that comes in tiering here - balance/offense breakers make everyone upset, but stall and slower balance having to dance around m garde is np? idg that) |
i don't think many people (that is an understatement) on pc will get reqs to vote anyway so there's that lol
banning it wont do any harm to how the metagame is now that's my two cents, it's not like it's gonna unbalance anything else |
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Anyway i think we can all agree offenses best answer is basically "Lando-T" or fodder team and revenge kill MMeta pmuch neither of which are good lol. |
I also think that post presented is right, because after Mega Salamence got banned, Greninja was next, and now Mega Metagross is on the stand. I'm under the mindset that regardless of what gets banned or what stays, something will be there that dominates the metagame and owns it regardless of what you do. As people have said, Fairy-types could get more rampant if Mega Metagross gets the boot.
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Also the slippery slope argument is kinda a fallacy. There will be a certain point where all the bullshit mons get the boot and we will achieve a somewhat balanced metagame and everyone is somewhat happy. Obviously there still willbe the one or two noobs who think shit like Porygon2 is broken, but those people wont be listened to because its the mostly the entire community that has to feel something is broken for it to be tested, but i digress. It has happened before when all the suspects were banned. Think gen 4 uu or pre Latias post Salamence ban gen 4 OU as a precedent for this. Those were essentially the most balanced metagames in recent memory. All play styles were viable, nothing really stood out as "click STAB move button and foe fodders pokes because its op as fuck" and you actually had to use skill to open up sweeps.
Also stop saying "fairies will be op when mmeta goes". Whats stopping you from using normal metagross, are things like mega scizor, bronzong, Jirachi, skarm, ferro, Heatran etc suddenly irrelevant now? You dont actually lose anything from a MMeta ban so frankly that assumption is redic. Obviously Mega Gardy is another story because frankly that has less switch ins than mmeta itself apart from niche, largely otherwise mediocre, momentum killer pokemon, but again i digress. |
Pardon my getting off-topic here, but i've heard rumblings about Mega Gardevoir being super strong. I know it gets STAB Psyshock along with Hyper Voice boosted by Pixilate, but what does it have aside from that that makes it so great again?
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If you use this: http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/calc_bc.html?mode=one-vs-all and put Mega Gardevoir (OU Offensive) as the "One", you'll see that the only things not annihilated by Garde are like Bronzong, Chansey (sorta), and Jirachi and a couple of other things the calculator probably didn't put in. Also Taunt lets it screw with stall, while Will-o-Wisp can be used to cripple physically offensive threats that could possibly scare it. |
I see most OU Pokèmon as cheap, but this takes it to a new level.
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massive facepalm x-x
if you won't even care to elaborate, why did you even bring up the case of 'pokemon in ou being cheap & whatnot' anyway :/ simple discussions and debates are always acceptable, as long as they make sense. no offense but your 'rant thread' was full of poor assumptions, let's try avoiding more stuff like that ya? ;x |
PROTIP: We may be forced to accept opinions as a sign of respect, but that does not make your opinion automatically right.
Anyway, this thread is becoming very toxic so this is a final warning to everyone: if you're not going to post something relevant to the thread topic then don't post anything at all. That is all, thanks! :) --- To those who has been on the suspect ladder, how was it? I haven't gotten the chance to hop on it yet because I've been busy working on school stuff. :( |
Maybe facing a MMeta is what separates the men from the boys.
This thing has a positive effect on the metagame and I don't think it should be banned. |
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MMeta is very close to being broken, but it does have a decent amount of counters, such as (Mega) Slowbro, Mega Scizor and Skarmory. And many things can check it, though admittedly some of them need a scarf to do it (Hydreigon, Lando-T). |
Well that is true, but not many of those "scarf" checks can really switch in - they'd have to revenge kill it. And I don't think either of those two OHKO Mega Metagross, although it'd need Ice Punch or Hammer Arm to finish them respectively (and admittedly, Landorus-T's Intimidate doesn't help).
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Free switch does not mean it can manually switch in - a check can either switch in after one of its teammates has fainted, through Volt Switch or U-turn, Memento, Healing Wish or double switching. |
I've been hearing controversy from /vp/, regarding Mega Metagross's suspect test, that hundreds of anti-ban votes are either deleted by Smogon mods for being "off-topic" or the person casting their vote had their right to vote revoked for zero reason except for disagreeing with Smogon. A similar scenario happened with Mega Mawile and Aegislash. These same anti-ban players also agree that while Mega Metagross is a solid pick in OU, it's not enough for him to get banned.
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Could someone do a quick calc to see how much damage a Mandibuzz foul play does to Metagross? I don't know where to do it.
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0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO If it's Jolly: 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO This is the calculator I used: http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ |
Wholly miltank
What's Mega Metagross' best response to a mandibuzz? Thunder / Ice punch? Someone run calcs on a physical bulk Mandibuzz; pls. And despite the ban making sense (said before) - I'll throw my 2 bits in the 'doesn't need to be banned' direction still. |
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252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Though with rocks up: 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery |
^ Thanks for that; definitely something I forgot to consider actually - the super effective stab foul play off its own attack. Lawl. Please; somebody - get a replay where a poocheyna with focus sash takes down mega metagross with foul play. Please.
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But yeah, Mandibuzz would need Stealth Rock off the field to be mindful of it, and Metagross would have to be Mega Evolved before it comes out. |
So MMetagross stays in OU.
It was really close though. 2.7% away from supermajority. This was expected (the close votes, to be precise), to be honest. Your thoughts? |
Whoa, it really didn't get enough votes to get banned? Was really expecting it to get banned cuz everything that's been suspected in OU this gen has been banned. So I guess we'll see how things go now....
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I guess Mega Gardevoir isn't going to make it's major debut after all. |
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I pretty much figured that the decision would be close either way it went. This was probably somewhat influenced by people bandwagoning the (bad) argument that if MegaGross was banned, the metagame would be dominated by fairy types...which just simply is not true lol. Either way, I’m eehhhh on it staying, and I think I would have preferred the metagame more if it was gone. It’s all good though, It will be suspect tested again and booted out of the tier.
Now about Mega Slowbro... |
Oh boy. This was one I really thought could go either way, and it turned out to be the one that keeps it here. Mega Metagross is one that has answers to it, although I was expecting it to get the boot in the long run. So let's see what happens as it remains here.
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i think landorus deserves a suspect before slowbro, but hnnnnnnnnng slowbro.
also i am p sure they will have to suspect mmeta again in the future. |
just gonna say i predicted this go me go me i am great etc
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anyway as for other mons i definitely want mega slowbro around if mega metagross is going to be (broken checking broken but metagross is way worse), landorus is suspect worthy but i'm not sold on its ban by any stretch. mega sableye's bandwagon has collapsed but that's probably a suspect worthy mon in a lebron-like transition where it gets shat on so much that its perception actually underrates it a bit, which will almost certainly reverse at some point (as it did with lebron). #basketballanalogies anyway yeah this mon was not only borked but it's like the 16th most used mon in ou but the single best/most powerful. i would probably be less annoyed about building for it to insane degrees if it showed up on more than 1/8 of teams but yolo. effing mega evolutions man lol |
Oh great, people think Mega Slowbro might get the check next? Although that monster Defense is worth noting, and unlike Steelix and Aggron, has feasible Special Defense to back it up at least since it can learn Calm Mind. (And no critical hits don't help...)
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As a Mega Slowbro user, I'd be bummed if I didn't get to keep using it in Prism League, but as a wall, it's stupid difficult to break unless you happen to run Gastrodon, Cradily, or something else with Storm Drain. Oh, and Zekrom beat mine with Serperior once I think.
I wonder how it would do as a Wonder Room sometimes (singles only though) |
I dont think there is a strong enough pro ban camp enough for Slowbro mega.
Honestly it has its issues (status, strong special attackers still annihilating even it after a cm, stuff like CB Tar and grass types exist still so its kinda your fault for not running one/some of these things plus it has shit coverage if you use CroBro lol.) i feel its actually good for the metagame in that it counter balances offense in some ways, the same with Sableye. Defensive teams do not have alot to play with this gen so i honestly feel mega bro is healthy (as far as megas go >_>) in that it forces offense to actually adapt to something without just mindlessly spamming pokemon with move which it usually does, same with mega Sableye. Heaven forbid offence has to THINK when teambuilding about strong defensive threats! Its crit blocking i feel is also healthy for the meta because unlike Suicune, you cant noobishly spam moves and hope they crit eventually which is hilariously what people actually do and just get crushed. It kinda reminds me of people who bawww about Mega Sable because their whole team is wisp weak and set up bait for it and dont have fairies, counters, status moves that bypass mbounce see; scald and plume or even pokemon to absorb its wisp like Tran and Talon or pokemon that cream it like Sub Mind keld etc. Again, its your fault for not using checks/counters to it and last time i checked these were all standard on offensive teams soooo lol. |
what DA said. and besides what? there are other megas that are way more needed of a ban than mega slowbro. you cant ban mega slowbro and still have gardevoir and metagross and diancie around lol imo the order should be metagross, gardevoir, diancie, slowbro~sableye if sableye even. that one's kind of on the border for me.
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in any case, might as well see how the meta adapts in the meantime. i've enjoyed running mega bro but i will definitely brush off my old mmeta build. :) pursuit is insane on it btw, glad i'm here go me. |
i am very optimistic about a potential landorus suspect test, it doesn't have any beneficial effect on the metagame and a large number of people support its ban, so hopefully he is suspected in the near future
happy about metagross avoiding a ban as well |
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I honestly cant see how the stall megas need testing before mega gardy. That is actually redic. Gardy literally has about 3 switch ins and 2 of those arent very viable and get wasted by wisp anyway so i mean lol. |
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also karp you were anti-ban? disappoint :( |
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Toxic Chansey can check it once but hates CM Physhocks and Taunt. |
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mega scizor is the other, but yeah switchins to M-Gardevoir are really uncommon, another reason why I like Metagross staying, in addition to making SpDef SD Glisc have an additional cost for using it |
The thing is that most of the things said about an eventual Mega Gardevoir ban apply to almost any stallbreaker. Kyurem-B also dismantled stall teams (read: purely passive stall teams) in BW, but it was OK. How about we suspect Heracross, Crawdaunt, Exploud, Haxorus and Lando-I (which probably needs a suspect anyway), because they eat stall alive as well except for one or two pokemon they can't beat. Actually, we may as well quickban Rampardos since that thing has NO switch-ins.
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exploud eats orphans so it should be banned imo
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tbh if you take a look at the voting thread, many of those who voted 'do not ban' were those who got voting reqs with gxes in the 70s, and if you tally the votes of those who had gxes over 80 such as myself, you'd probably be looking at a much different outcome.
I really think suspect tests should have an added requirement that you must at least have a gxe of 80 to vote, 75 at the very least. if you're a semi-decent player you should be able to achieve at least that much, with the current system we have players who have absolutely no idea what they're doing but manage to get reqs with a horrible win-loss record by doing an insane amount (200-300) of battles. |
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