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-   -   Latest OU Suspect Test: Mega Metagross (voting results are in) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=343806)

Nah February 13th, 2015 5:32 AM

There's also the fact that Skarm can't do anything to Megagross besides phazing it out.

Anti February 13th, 2015 6:00 AM

hmmm so at the risk of "mini modding" (uhhh whatever lol) here's a friendly reminder that it takes two (or more) to tango in crapping up a thread so maybe getting into a comment war with someone who is very obviously unfamiliar with how tiering works is not the best idea.

so anyway, i found this post to be very useful. in particular i find the argument about assuming that bans are fundamentally bad or unfortunate to be a really important point. people often say smogon is "ban happy" but even when people get annoyed with a lack of bans (like d_a), there is no equivalent rhetoric because i think that assumption that bans are bad has been built into the collective psyche of competitive players. will expand on this later if i have time since i have lots to say.

(also, just for some mega meta-specific stuff, i would agree that it has a fair amount of defensive checks, but i'd find the argument more convincing if i heard more offensive checks. though i do think it's important to recognize the double standard that comes in tiering here - balance/offense breakers make everyone upset, but stall and slower balance having to dance around m garde is np? idg that)

Yoshikko February 13th, 2015 7:19 AM

i don't think many people (that is an understatement) on pc will get reqs to vote anyway so there's that lol
banning it wont do any harm to how the metagame is now that's my two cents, it's not like it's gonna unbalance anything else

Dark Azelf February 13th, 2015 8:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8617172)
There's also the fact that Skarm can't do anything to Megagross besides phazing it out.

Well Counter Skarmory was a rather common set on it last time i checked to pose a more immediate stop to things like that. You can also take the long drawn out route of setting up Spikes on it then Phazing or using Brave Bird and Roosting, the latter being shaky and only working vs EQ Gross cos if you Roost and Meta has enough Hammer Arm (used over EQ) speed drops you arent going to have a good time lol. (or SD/Curse Skarm LOL!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by srinator (Post 8617104)
You just suck but I hope all mega's get banned one day c:
Okay maybe not all, audino is cute,
Also I don't get why Skarm isn't as popular as it should be given meta's op'ness

Skarm isnt used more because its basically a stall pokemon and everyone uses balance, fail or bulky/heavy offense team styles and Skarm kills your offensive momentum unless you use uhhh SD Skarm lol. Stall as a play style doesnt particularly struggle with MMeta due to its best checks being stall based (Skarm, Bro, Ferro, etc) but thats irrelevant and doesnt stop it being broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8617197)
(also, just for some mega meta-specific stuff, i would agree that it has a fair amount of defensive checks, but i'd find the argument more convincing if i heard more offensive checks. though i do think it's important to recognize the double standard that comes in tiering here - balance/offense breakers make everyone upset, but stall and slower balance having to dance around m garde is np? idg that)

Agree. I think this lies in the fact of like i said above "not many people using stall so they dont care if shit beats it" which is totally the wrong way of achieving balance in a tier but i digress. I mean i dont particularly like using most offensive builds, i find it frail, doesnt fit my play style etc. But if a pokemon ripped it a new one id absolutely still vote it uber. I also feel this is why more attention hasnt been bought to Gothitelle and Shadow Tag tbh. In a nutshell If you want balance ALL play styles should be at least somewhat viable, end of and stuff that shits on one playstyle isnt healthy in achieving said balance.

Anyway i think we can all agree offenses best answer is basically "Lando-T" or fodder team and revenge kill MMeta pmuch neither of which are good lol.

Pendraflare February 14th, 2015 8:09 AM

I also think that post presented is right, because after Mega Salamence got banned, Greninja was next, and now Mega Metagross is on the stand. I'm under the mindset that regardless of what gets banned or what stays, something will be there that dominates the metagame and owns it regardless of what you do. As people have said, Fairy-types could get more rampant if Mega Metagross gets the boot.

Zeffy February 14th, 2015 9:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8618450)
As people have said, Fairy-types could get more rampant if Mega Metagross gets the boot.

Somehow I don't see this happening. Fairy-types were already a thing before the introduction of Mega Metagross, and the metagame wasn't centralized because of their presence. The only relevant Fairy-types in OU are Mega Diancie (and maybe regular Diancie), Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Clefable, Klefki, maybe Sylveon, aaaaaand maybe Togekiss. These aren't particularly centralizing 'mons (except perhaps Mega Garde, but that might be another topic entirely), and there are still plenty of things that can reliably stop Fairies.

Dark Azelf February 14th, 2015 10:03 AM

Also the slippery slope argument is kinda a fallacy. There will be a certain point where all the bullshit mons get the boot and we will achieve a somewhat balanced metagame and everyone is somewhat happy. Obviously there still willbe the one or two noobs who think shit like Porygon2 is broken, but those people wont be listened to because its the mostly the entire community that has to feel something is broken for it to be tested, but i digress. It has happened before when all the suspects were banned. Think gen 4 uu or pre Latias post Salamence ban gen 4 OU as a precedent for this. Those were essentially the most balanced metagames in recent memory. All play styles were viable, nothing really stood out as "click STAB move button and foe fodders pokes because its op as fuck" and you actually had to use skill to open up sweeps.

Also stop saying "fairies will be op when mmeta goes". Whats stopping you from using normal metagross, are things like mega scizor, bronzong, Jirachi, skarm, ferro, Heatran etc suddenly irrelevant now? You dont actually lose anything from a MMeta ban so frankly that assumption is redic. Obviously Mega Gardy is another story because frankly that has less switch ins than mmeta itself apart from niche, largely otherwise mediocre, momentum killer pokemon, but again i digress.

Pendraflare February 14th, 2015 10:58 AM

Pardon my getting off-topic here, but i've heard rumblings about Mega Gardevoir being super strong. I know it gets STAB Psyshock along with Hyper Voice boosted by Pixilate, but what does it have aside from that that makes it so great again?

Nah February 14th, 2015 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8618616)
Pardon my getting off-topic here, but i've heard rumblings about Mega Gardevoir being super strong. I know it gets STAB Psyshock along with Hyper Voice boosted by Pixilate, but what does it have aside from that that makes it so great again?

Hyper Voice basically shreds what doesn't resist it, and most of what does is beaten by Psyshock (which is great so it's not so easily walled) and Focus Miss, especially if rocks are up, so very few things want to switch into Mega Garde.

If you use this: http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/calc_bc.html?mode=one-vs-all

and put Mega Gardevoir (OU Offensive) as the "One", you'll see that the only things not annihilated by Garde are like Bronzong, Chansey (sorta), and Jirachi and a couple of other things the calculator probably didn't put in.

Also Taunt lets it screw with stall, while Will-o-Wisp can be used to cripple physically offensive threats that could possibly scare it.

Khaotic Kebab February 14th, 2015 4:39 PM

I see most OU Pokèmon as cheap, but this takes it to a new level.

Zeffy February 14th, 2015 7:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaotic Kebab (Post 8618893)
I see most OU Pokèmon as cheap, but this takes it to a new level.

Uhm, would you care to elaborate?

Khaotic Kebab February 14th, 2015 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 8619034)
Uhm, would you care to elaborate?

No. No I wouldn't. It'd just start an argument.

halcyonic February 14th, 2015 11:16 PM

massive facepalm x-x

if you won't even care to elaborate, why did you even bring up the case of 'pokemon in ou being cheap & whatnot' anyway :/

simple discussions and debates are always acceptable, as long as they make sense. no offense but your 'rant thread' was full of poor assumptions, let's try avoiding more stuff like that ya? ;x

Zeffy February 15th, 2015 1:23 AM

PROTIP: We may be forced to accept opinions as a sign of respect, but that does not make your opinion automatically right.

Anyway, this thread is becoming very toxic so this is a final warning to everyone: if you're not going to post something relevant to the thread topic then don't post anything at all. That is all, thanks! :)

---

To those who has been on the suspect ladder, how was it? I haven't gotten the chance to hop on it yet because I've been busy working on school stuff. :(

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 12:50 PM

Maybe facing a MMeta is what separates the men from the boys.

This thing has a positive effect on the metagame and I don't think it should be banned.

Nah February 20th, 2015 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmourPearlShipper (Post 8626219)
Maybe facing a MMeta is what separates the men from the boys.

This thing has a positive effect on the metagame and I don't think it should be banned.

How exactly does it have a positive effect on the meta?

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 1:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zekrom (Post 8626222)
How exactly does it have a positive effect on the meta?

It punishes fairy/dragon spam, deals with bulky offense teams really well and blocks Mega Diancie/Gardevoir, which I think is good for the meta.

MMeta is very close to being broken, but it does have a decent amount of counters, such as (Mega) Slowbro, Mega Scizor and Skarmory. And many things can check it, though admittedly some of them need a scarf to do it (Hydreigon, Lando-T).

Pendraflare February 20th, 2015 2:35 PM

Well that is true, but not many of those "scarf" checks can really switch in - they'd have to revenge kill it. And I don't think either of those two OHKO Mega Metagross, although it'd need Ice Punch or Hammer Arm to finish them respectively (and admittedly, Landorus-T's Intimidate doesn't help).

Nah February 20th, 2015 2:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8626333)
Well that is true, but not many of those "scarf" checks can really switch in - they'd have to revenge kill it.

Yeah that's kinda what a check is. It can't switch in on the opposing poke, but if you get it in safely somehow or after something dies, it can usually kill it/force it out. A counter's one that can switch in without a problem.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 2:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendraflare (Post 8626333)
Well that is true, but not many of those "scarf" checks can really switch in - they'd have to revenge kill it. And I don't think either of those two OHKO Mega Metagross, although it'd need Ice Punch or Hammer Arm to finish them respectively (and admittedly, Landorus-T's Intimidate doesn't help).

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Free switch does not mean it can manually switch in - a check can either switch in after one of its teammates has fainted, through Volt Switch or U-turn, Memento, Healing Wish or double switching.

Pinkie-Dawn February 21st, 2015 11:15 AM

I've been hearing controversy from /vp/, regarding Mega Metagross's suspect test, that hundreds of anti-ban votes are either deleted by Smogon mods for being "off-topic" or the person casting their vote had their right to vote revoked for zero reason except for disagreeing with Smogon. A similar scenario happened with Mega Mawile and Aegislash. These same anti-ban players also agree that while Mega Metagross is a solid pick in OU, it's not enough for him to get banned.

2Fruit February 21st, 2015 12:07 PM

Could someone do a quick calc to see how much damage a Mandibuzz foul play does to Metagross? I don't know where to do it.

Nah February 21st, 2015 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 8627370)
I've been hearing controversy from /vp/, regarding Mega Metagross's suspect test, that hundreds of anti-ban votes are either deleted by Smogon mods for being "off-topic" or the person casting their vote had their right to vote revoked for zero reason except for disagreeing with Smogon. A similar scenario happened with Mega Mawile and Aegislash. These same anti-ban players also agree that while Mega Metagross is a solid pick in OU, it's not enough for him to get banned.

Yeah, I've heard people say that before. I wouldn't know if it's even remotely true or not, since I don't have a Smogon account nor do I lurk their forum much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvanGalea (Post 8627450)
Could someone do a quick calc to see how much damage a Mandibuzz foul play does to Metagross? I don't know where to do it.

If it has a Hasty nature:
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

If it's Jolly:
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the calculator I used:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

Polar Spectrum February 22nd, 2015 5:07 PM

Wholly miltank

What's Mega Metagross' best response to a mandibuzz? Thunder / Ice punch? Someone run calcs on a physical bulk Mandibuzz; pls.

And despite the ban making sense (said before) - I'll throw my 2 bits in the 'doesn't need to be banned' direction still.

Nah February 22nd, 2015 5:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Spectrum (Post 8629516)
Wholly miltank

What's Mega Metagross' best response to a mandibuzz? Thunder / Ice punch? Someone run calcs on a physical bulk Mandibuzz; pls.

And despite the ban making sense (said before) - I'll throw my 2 bits in the 'doesn't need to be banned' direction still.

It comes out to this:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Though with rocks up:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


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