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Salamence Rant: How NOT to use Salamence in OU
If you don't like rants, kindly click the back button and enjoy your stay on other threads. I use harsh language here. This doesn't mean I have something against new players, though I will admit that I like to make fun of silly sets. It's just a game after all, and if you're bitching about it... there are problems.
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130516171338/sunheart-thunderclan/images/f/fe/Salamence.png | 52 | Salamence | 2.97775% | 76965 | 2.978% | 55800 | 2.758% | (unweighted stats) Salamence is a D-rank Pokemon in the viability rankings, since it's mostly outclassed by [email protected], Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria, but it still has small perks over them, such as versatility. However, I need the feel to rant about Mence because I've seen extremely few players putting it to good use. And you know why? Because NOBODY USES IT CORRECTLY. This thread will hopefully help you if you ever plan on using Salamence in OU. WHAT NOT TO USE: #1: Focus Sash (6.11% usage) Salamence @ Focus Sash Trait: Moxie EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Naive Nature - Dragon Dance - Outrage - Earthquake - Fire Blast / Iron Tail This set looks good on paper, due to Salamence's excellent base 135 attack and Moxie, coverage on Ferrothorn and Skarmory, and killing everything else with Outrage. However... this set just isn't good. It was bad in BW, and It's absolutely terrible in XY. Locking yourself into Outrage is a very risky idea, especially with Mega Scizor and Fairy-types everywhere. Without Life Orb, you miss out on quite a few KOs, and Moxie means you can't take advantage of Intimidate. Also, this Salamence confers no utility whatsoever. #2: Choice Specs (2.297% usage) Salamence @ Choice Specs Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Draco Meteor - Fire Blast - Hydro Pump - Dragon Pulse This set is also one that looks pretty decent on paper, but honestly, just use Hydreigon. It has higher special attack (125 vs 110), is not weak to Stealth Rock, and has a much better movepool, which includes U-turn and Focus Blast. Legitimate sets and how NOT to use them: #1: Choice Scarf Salamence @ Choice Scarf Trait: Moxie EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Outrage - Dragon Claw - Earthquake / Fire Blast - Iron Tail DON'T JUST START WITH MENCE AND FIRE OFF AN OUTRAGE AT THE EARLIEST OPPORTUNITY FOR FUCK'S SAKE. I've seen a ton of players trying to do that. If your opponent has a Ferrothorn, you'll just be turned into setup fodder. Not to mention all the Fairy-types. ScarfMoxieMence is a Pokemon supposed to be used at late-game, when its checks are gone. If you absolutely need to use it at early-game, try to predict a switch with one of your coverage moves. That means Clefable and co., as well as Skarmory and Ferro get 2HKOed easily. I'm of the opinion that you absolutely need Magnezone (or Magneton) to make Mence work. Magnezone destroys Ferrothorn and other steel-types easily, while also threatening Clefable with a Choice Specs-boosted Flash Cannon. Really strong. Also, make sure you don't forget Moxie. MoxieMence is to be used very carefully and smartly if you want it to succeed. #2: Dragon Dance Salamence @ Life Orb Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Adamant / Jolly Nature - Dragon Dance - Dragon Claw - Earthquake - Iron Tail Now this set is something that is hard to use, apparently. Nobody uses it correctly. First things first, don't bother with Moxie. Salamence gets few opportunities to set up anyway, so Intimidate might allow it to set up on some physical attackers, like Excadrill. Secondly, don't use Fire Blast. Once again, Magnezone becomes crucial, since it traps Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Mega Scizor and removes them with HP Fire. Despite Iron Tail's horrible 75% accuracy, it still kills Mega Aerodactyl and all fairy-types not named Azumarill, which otherwise revenge kill Mence easily. Thirdly, DO NOT TRY TO SET UP A DD AT EARLY-GAME. Just like Focus Sash. Wait until your opponent's Ferrothorn or Azumarill is gone, and then try to set up. Fourthly, get some Rapid Spin/Defog support, although Rapid Spin is recommended since it doesn't clear your own hazards. Excadrill and Mega Blastoise (or Starmie) are excellent candidates. And last but definitely not least, remember Salamence usually gets only one chance to sweep. Get some Wish support, Jirachi is a perfect candidate for this job due to its Steel/Psychic typing and flinching shenanigans. #3: MixMence Salamence @ Life Orb Trait: Intimidate EVs: 140 Atk / 116 SpA / 252 Spe Naughty / Naive Nature - Dragon Claw - Draco Meteor - Fire Blast - Earthquake / Iron Tail This is a set that is less dependent on Magnezone, since it uses Fire Blast. This set is honestly pretty difficult to justify using over something such as Kyurem-B, but Mence does have its perks, namely Intimidate and higher Speed, as well as access to Fire Blast. Once again, don't bother with Moxie, as Mence usually switches in and out a lot. Don't forget Rapid Spin/Defog either. Do not forget Fire Blast on this thing, otherwise you may as well just use Kyurem-B. And lastly, don't forget Wish. #4: Lure Dragon Dance Salamence @ Life Orb Trait: Intimidate EVs: 204 Atk / 52 SpA / 252 Spe Naughty Nature - Dragon Dance - Draco Meteor / Hydro Pump - Dragon Claw - Iron Tail / Earthquake I saw sets that used Draco Meteor as their sole attacking Dragon-type move. Massive mistake. If you think you can sweep decent players with only Fire Blast and Iron Tail... good luck, really. Firstly, if you're using Draco Meteor, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHY YOU'RE USING IT - YOU WANT IT TO ELIMINATE GLISCOR, LANDO-T, HIPPOWDON AND MEGA SABLEYE. Dealing 65%-70% to these Pokemon is absolutely huge, considering nobody expects Draco Meteor to be used once you see a Mence at +1/+1. It also puts them into the KO range of your Dragon Claw. If you're using Hydro Pump instead, MAKE SURE YOU USE MENCE ON A RAIN TEAM. Salamence actually has decent synergy with Politoed, and its Hydro Pump will put the hurt on the Pokemon I mentioned, as well as Rhyperior and Heatran. Don't forget that this Mence actually gets walled, depending on which coverage move it chooses. If it doesn't have Iron Tail, get some Scizor support. Without Earthquake, Magnezone and Heatran become excellent partners. I honestly haven't tried the defensive Wish set, but I've seen it used to decent effect in Ubers, where it could abuse Intimidate and Body Slam, before going mega. There you have it. Don't be like most players. Now I know what you're thinking, "all you did was to rant about something new players can't use", but seriously. Nobody uses it correctly. Well, nobody in the mid-ladder. |
I mean, is this supposed to be advice? Or put new players down? It's not very constructive, imo you're also rly aggressive about it but hey that's just my opinion :( It's not very motivating if you start off with 'WHAT NOT TO *** USE' ya know?
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Honestly i think mence is a garbage mon this gen. I just see no viable reason to use it. Every Dragon outclasses it at its roles.
Want a specs user? Hydreigon Want a better Scarf Dragon? Garchomp Want a better DD user? Everything. Want a better mix mon? Dragonite (who is also shit and should be uu) has access to SuperPower to actually tickle Chansey and Tran on mix sets, there is also cube. It also has ridiculous 4mss. If you use Iron Tail > EQ or Fire Blast you literally lose to everything bar fairies. Any Moxie isnt going to work ever. Too many revenge killers and too many set up fodder moves and immunities/mediocre neutral coverage/lack of power. Not to mention being Stealth Rock bait doesnt help. The only actual niche id use mence and you have mentioned is this, would be Salamence @ Leftovers 248 HP / 224 Def or Sp.Def / 36 Speed (put in defenses if you use a - speed nature) Impish / Careful / Sassy / Relaxed Trait: Intimidate - Wish - Roost / Protect - Dragon Tail / Toxic - Flamethrower / Toxic :\ |
One thing I don't get is why you're putting down Salamence because various MEGA pokemon are better? Out of fairness, if you're going to compare a normal pokemon to MEGA pokemon wouldn't it be more logical to use MEGA Salamence? That's like saying "Swablu sucks because Mega Rayquaza is a much better flying type"
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Mega Salamence is Ubers. In Gen 4 (I think), Salamence was Ubers. No, they are not in the same league. Without the Megas they are useless (Charizard and Altaria). These Megas fit his role better because of the great offensive typing they have (Deffense is a different story). All 3 are weak to Rocks before and some still after Mega, so it's not like Rocks matter as greatly (though some are affected more). Honestly, I'm upset about seeing Mence being abused so poorly. I remember while his Mega was still viable. People used to use it so well. Sub DD wrecked chaos and most people knew how to use it well. Now they seem really desperate (or maybe just inexperienced, idk). I miss MegaMence, but even I agree it had to go. |
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http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/salamence http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/charizard http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/altaria |
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When the Salamencite was banned to Ubers, Salamence's usage fell drastically. |
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Then again, the title of this thread is called "How not to use Salamence in OU", OU being the ky word. And I thought he said Mence was OU D ranking, if I'm not mistaken? Idk could be wrong. |
Intimidate + Defense buff upon going Mega + Access to DD + Aerialated Return + Outrage = CARNAGE
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mence is really bad in ou imo, and ttbh outclassed by something that i think is terrible, dnite. which is p bad in itself :/
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basically we can compare salamence to mega zard x/mega altaria/etc cos we are discussing salamence's viability in ou, not uu. |
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ok so to clear things up (i hope), salamence is terribly outclassed at everything it does in ou, but people still use it anyway for its niches and shit. while a pokemon may be in a tier lower than ou, that doesn't mean it can't perform in ou. chesnaught is a fine example, even though it's uu, it's an excellent physical wall that can perform well in balanced and stall teams in ou. so basically this thread was created to inform people how to effectively use salamence in ou if one ever opted to use salamence, but others have questioned why even bother with salamence when better dragons such as mega charizard x and mega altaria exist. they can be compared because this is set in the ou environment, not uu. |
Then again, there are many Pokemon used incorrectly, but Salamence is one of those extreme cases. I should probably mention the DD lure set, which is yet again used the wrong way.
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But in all seriousness, I don't see the point of the thread if its purpose, by the OP's own admission, is rather self-indulgent. Rants as OPs do not start good discussions--unless you think the previous twenty or so posts have been super duper enlightening?--and Salamence is a niche Pokemon anyway. The "advice" portion is ridiculously elementary (any remotely competent player knows not to lock into Outrage when the opponent is packing Ferrothorn???? -_-) so I don't see the point. I don't know what you expected posting something that needed such a passive aggressive disclaimer ?_? Then again, I'm sure everyone on the forum wants me to post my own rant about players who rail on lower ladder players in a thinly veiled attempt to position themselves as superior. But we wouldn't want that, now would we? ;) With that out of the way, Quote:
The presence of Fairies makes low-risk plays like early game Draco Meteors (and obviously any Outrage) much trickier for the Dragon user. If I'm running Latios, for example, and my opponent has Azumarill, then Draco could give one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the game a free switch-in. In short, the Dragon immunity that Fairies have puts much more pressure on Dragon users to make plays instead of spamming STABs. This change has probably been positive for the metagame, but how easy a Pokemon is to use absolutely factors into its viability. Why do you think Keldeo is S-rank or Landorus-T is so popular? Even if Salamence is able to "make the play" (like hitting Clefable with Iron Tail), doing so requires sacrificing a move slot and also pressures the Salamence user to predict correctly. When Salamence has one fewer free moveslot and its STAB is less fearsome in real battles situations, then yes, its viability has suffered as a direct result of the introduction of the Fairy type. (A more contemporary example might be Mega Gardevoir. It can plow past Heatran with Focus Blast, but Heatran's presence undoubtedly hurts its effectiveness in battle since it makes Hyper Voice much more difficult to spam, especially if the Heatran is Scarfed or the Heatran user can switch Tran into HV and then something like Gengar into a predicted Focus Blast. In theory, Gardevoir creams that team or that combo, but since it is forced to predict to avoid being forced out, the theorymon kind of falls apart. It's an iffy example but gets the point across well enough.) It's just more bad theorymon to say "uh Iron Tail lol" to dismiss that point, especially on a mon whose main niche uses a choice set and a STAB move that locks the user in for another turn or two. How is the threat of, say, a BD Azumarill set-up NOT a problem for Salamence? And yes, Steels did exist in DP/BW, but they were less effective at stopping Dragon moves (obviously: resistance < immunity), and their continued existence along with Fairies means that it now takes two coverage moves instead of one for Dragons to threaten Fairies, though the real numbers are probably three instead of two because Dragons typically ran Ground/Fire for Heatran and Skarm/Zong (lol RIP Bronzong) in the past. |
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Now considering that Salamence was sent to ubers in DPPt, you are right to an extent, but Scizor and Heatran took half damage from Draco Meteor? I mean, they could run specially defensive spreads if they really wanted to, and predicting a switch was much harder since there was no team preview and bullshit. Not all Scizor were Choice Band variants and not all Heatran were offensive variants. This especially applies to Scizor, since defensive heatran saw usage on balanced/stall. Also AFAIK Mence was actually banned for its DD set. Then again, I don't have too much experience with gen 4 but I can tell you that I used MixNite on one of my teams and found out that it was actually pretty hard to use. About your second paragraph: Keldeo is S-rank because it has multiple viable sets and pairs extremely well with Mega Metagross, while Scarf Lando-T sees so much usage because it's the best pivot in the game imo. Then I can easily tell you that the same thing can be said to steel-types, especially in BW since they didn't take too much damage from Fire Blast, as rain was fucking everywhere. The only Dragon-type attack that could get past Ferro was Kyu-B's Outrage, and that's only with a Choice Band. Steel-types also put pressure on a dragon's attempt to spam Draco/Outrage, just like fairies do, and most of the viable OU ones actually aren't weak to Earthquake (Ferro, Skarm, Mega Scizor, Bronzong). Not to mention rain is still a thing and Mence has trouble KOing these steels. Salamence needed Magnezone support since BW imo. This thing can easily trap Ferrothorn and Skarmory and kick their sorry asses while laughing at everything they tried to use (well, skarm has whirlwind, but you get my point). Forretress is also starting to become a thing due to the release of Custap Berry, and guess who takes care of it? That's right, Magnezone. Now let's go to Fairies. You know what Pokemon can remove them? Magnezone! Of course, unlike Ferro, said fairies can switch out to something that walls it. But no ground-type likes to take a Choice Specs-boosted Flash Cannon to the face. If the opponent has Heatran, Magnezone can just Volt Switch back to Salamence, and then you can set up. This works especially with entry hazards. Bisharp/Thundurus is good to have as well(but not entirely needed). Quote:
As for Belly Drum Azumarill, Mence can play mindgames with it. Earthquake is a 2HKO and after SR it beats it even after Sitrus Berry has been activated. Mindgames, as you know, are crucial in OU (Bisharp is known for this). Since Mence is paired with Magnezone (if you're actually using a competitive team), Azu needs to predict if it switches out or goes for the 2HKO. I'm not trying to be ignorant since your points are actually pretty good. But I don't think Mence's viability in OU has anything to do with Fairies. |
Nothing you said actually contradicts my point. My post was about about it's not that Salamence can't get past Fairies but that doing so hampers its versatility and utilization in-battle. When you say things like "Salamence can play mind games with Azumarill" you are pretty much making my point for me. The whole point is that Salamence is much harder to use now because, in previous generations, it could just steamroll it with its Dragon STAB. It was a 100/0 play instead of a 50/50 play. (And, if you really want to go analyze it, it's even worse than a 50/50 play since Earthquake is a terrible move to get choice-locked into and "luring Azumarill" could very well be a tactical victory but a strategic blunder.)
If you are seriously arguing that such situations haven't hurt its viability or effectiveness, then your understanding of what viability consists in is flawed. [It seems to me that you're annoyed with the idea that people think that "because of Fairies Salamence sucks," and you'd be correct to say that such an argument is hyperbolic and is wrong. But it's also a straw man, and all you are doing is replacing one hyperbole with another ("Mence's viability doesn't have anything to do with Fairies") which is probably even more indefensible. Then again, I've been working on this awesome thread about how Ground-types don't affect the viability of my beloved Raikou at all. x_x] Spoiler:
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Now that I think about it though, you're probably right about ScarfMoxie, but I'm still not sure. My point is that Fairies haven't hampered Salamence's viability because they find it hard to switch into it in the first place. The fact that most of them are slower doesn't help either. Azu is really the only Fairy which can put pressure on it. One more thing: Quote:
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