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-   -   Salamence Rant: How NOT to use Salamence in OU (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=344342)

KorpiklaaniVodka February 19th, 2015 8:03 AM

Salamence Rant: How NOT to use Salamence in OU
 
If you don't like rants, kindly click the back button and enjoy your stay on other threads. I use harsh language here. This doesn't mean I have something against new players, though I will admit that I like to make fun of silly sets. It's just a game after all, and if you're bitching about it... there are problems.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130516171338/sunheart-thunderclan/images/f/fe/Salamence.png

| 52 | Salamence | 2.97775% | 76965 | 2.978% | 55800 | 2.758% | (unweighted stats)

Salamence is a D-rank Pokemon in the viability rankings, since it's mostly outclassed by [email protected], Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria, but it still has small perks over them, such as versatility. However, I need the feel to rant about Mence because I've seen extremely few players putting it to good use. And you know why? Because NOBODY USES IT CORRECTLY. This thread will hopefully help you if you ever plan on using Salamence in OU.

WHAT NOT TO USE:

#1: Focus Sash (6.11% usage)

Salamence @ Focus Sash
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature

- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast / Iron Tail

This set looks good on paper, due to Salamence's excellent base 135 attack and Moxie, coverage on Ferrothorn and Skarmory, and killing everything else with Outrage. However... this set just isn't good. It was bad in BW, and It's absolutely terrible in XY. Locking yourself into Outrage is a very risky idea, especially with Mega Scizor and Fairy-types everywhere. Without Life Orb, you miss out on quite a few KOs, and Moxie means you can't take advantage of Intimidate. Also, this Salamence confers no utility whatsoever.

#2: Choice Specs (2.297% usage)

Salamence @ Choice Specs
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse

This set is also one that looks pretty decent on paper, but honestly, just use Hydreigon. It has higher special attack (125 vs 110), is not weak to Stealth Rock, and has a much better movepool, which includes U-turn and Focus Blast.

Legitimate sets and how NOT to use them:

#1: Choice Scarf

Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake / Fire Blast
- Iron Tail

DON'T JUST START WITH MENCE AND FIRE OFF AN OUTRAGE AT THE EARLIEST OPPORTUNITY FOR FUCK'S SAKE. I've seen a ton of players trying to do that. If your opponent has a Ferrothorn, you'll just be turned into setup fodder. Not to mention all the Fairy-types. ScarfMoxieMence is a Pokemon supposed to be used at late-game, when its checks are gone. If you absolutely need to use it at early-game, try to predict a switch with one of your coverage moves. That means Clefable and co., as well as Skarmory and Ferro get 2HKOed easily. I'm of the opinion that you absolutely need Magnezone (or Magneton) to make Mence work. Magnezone destroys Ferrothorn and other steel-types easily, while also threatening Clefable with a Choice Specs-boosted Flash Cannon. Really strong. Also, make sure you don't forget Moxie.
MoxieMence is to be used very carefully and smartly if you want it to succeed.

#2: Dragon Dance

Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature

- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Iron Tail

Now this set is something that is hard to use, apparently. Nobody uses it correctly. First things first, don't bother with Moxie. Salamence gets few opportunities to set up anyway, so Intimidate might allow it to set up on some physical attackers, like Excadrill. Secondly, don't use Fire Blast. Once again, Magnezone becomes crucial, since it traps Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Mega Scizor and removes them with HP Fire. Despite Iron Tail's horrible 75% accuracy, it still kills Mega Aerodactyl and all fairy-types not named Azumarill, which otherwise revenge kill Mence easily. Thirdly, DO NOT TRY TO SET UP A DD AT EARLY-GAME. Just like Focus Sash. Wait until your opponent's Ferrothorn or Azumarill is gone, and then try to set up. Fourthly, get some Rapid Spin/Defog support, although Rapid Spin is recommended since it doesn't clear your own hazards. Excadrill and Mega Blastoise (or Starmie) are excellent candidates. And last but definitely not least, remember Salamence usually gets only one chance to sweep. Get some Wish support, Jirachi is a perfect candidate for this job due to its Steel/Psychic typing and flinching shenanigans.

#3: MixMence

Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 140 Atk / 116 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty / Naive Nature

- Dragon Claw
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Iron Tail

This is a set that is less dependent on Magnezone, since it uses Fire Blast. This set is honestly pretty difficult to justify using over something such as Kyurem-B, but Mence does have its perks, namely Intimidate and higher Speed, as well as access to Fire Blast. Once again, don't bother with Moxie, as Mence usually switches in and out a lot. Don't forget Rapid Spin/Defog either. Do not forget Fire Blast on this thing, otherwise you may as well just use Kyurem-B. And lastly, don't forget Wish.

#4: Lure Dragon Dance

Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 204 Atk / 52 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature

- Dragon Dance
- Draco Meteor / Hydro Pump
- Dragon Claw
- Iron Tail / Earthquake

I saw sets that used Draco Meteor as their sole attacking Dragon-type move. Massive mistake. If you think you can sweep decent players with only Fire Blast and Iron Tail... good luck, really. Firstly, if you're using Draco Meteor, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHY YOU'RE USING IT - YOU WANT IT TO ELIMINATE GLISCOR, LANDO-T, HIPPOWDON AND MEGA SABLEYE. Dealing 65%-70% to these Pokemon is absolutely huge, considering nobody expects Draco Meteor to be used once you see a Mence at +1/+1. It also puts them into the KO range of your Dragon Claw. If you're using Hydro Pump instead, MAKE SURE YOU USE MENCE ON A RAIN TEAM. Salamence actually has decent synergy with Politoed, and its Hydro Pump will put the hurt on the Pokemon I mentioned, as well as Rhyperior and Heatran. Don't forget that this Mence actually gets walled, depending on which coverage move it chooses. If it doesn't have Iron Tail, get some Scizor support. Without Earthquake, Magnezone and Heatran become excellent partners.

I honestly haven't tried the defensive Wish set, but I've seen it used to decent effect in Ubers, where it could abuse Intimidate and Body Slam, before going mega.

There you have it. Don't be like most players. Now I know what you're thinking, "all you did was to rant about something new players can't use", but seriously. Nobody uses it correctly. Well, nobody in the mid-ladder.

Yoshikko February 19th, 2015 12:03 PM

I mean, is this supposed to be advice? Or put new players down? It's not very constructive, imo you're also rly aggressive about it but hey that's just my opinion :( It's not very motivating if you start off with 'WHAT NOT TO *** USE' ya know?

KorpiklaaniVodka February 19th, 2015 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshikko (Post 8624895)
I mean, is this supposed to be advice? Or put new players down? It's not very constructive, imo you're also rly aggressive about it but hey that's just my opinion :( It's not very motivating if you start off with 'WHAT NOT TO *** USE' ya know?

Yeah, it's supposed to be advice. I apologize if I sounded harshly, but I'm so pissed when I think about this dragon. Removed the f word though.

Dark Azelf February 19th, 2015 3:23 PM

Honestly i think mence is a garbage mon this gen. I just see no viable reason to use it. Every Dragon outclasses it at its roles.

Want a specs user? Hydreigon
Want a better Scarf Dragon? Garchomp
Want a better DD user? Everything.
Want a better mix mon? Dragonite (who is also shit and should be uu) has access to SuperPower to actually tickle Chansey and Tran on mix sets, there is also cube.

It also has ridiculous 4mss. If you use Iron Tail > EQ or Fire Blast you literally lose to everything bar fairies. Any Moxie isnt going to work ever. Too many revenge killers and too many set up fodder moves and immunities/mediocre neutral coverage/lack of power. Not to mention being Stealth Rock bait doesnt help.

The only actual niche id use mence and you have mentioned is this, would be

Salamence @ Leftovers
248 HP / 224 Def or Sp.Def / 36 Speed (put in defenses if you use a - speed nature)
Impish / Careful / Sassy / Relaxed
Trait: Intimidate
- Wish
- Roost / Protect
- Dragon Tail / Toxic
- Flamethrower / Toxic

:\

Howmander February 19th, 2015 3:40 PM

One thing I don't get is why you're putting down Salamence because various MEGA pokemon are better? Out of fairness, if you're going to compare a normal pokemon to MEGA pokemon wouldn't it be more logical to use MEGA Salamence? That's like saying "Swablu sucks because Mega Rayquaza is a much better flying type"

Teravolt February 19th, 2015 4:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625194)
One thing I don't get is why you're putting down Salamence because various MEGA pokemon are better? Out of fairness, if you're going to compare a normal pokemon to MEGA pokemon wouldn't it be more logical to use MEGA Salamence? That's like saying "Swablu sucks because Mega Rayquaza is a much better flying type"


Mega Salamence is Ubers.

In Gen 4 (I think), Salamence was Ubers.

No, they are not in the same league.

Without the Megas they are useless (Charizard and Altaria). These Megas fit his role better because of the great offensive typing they have (Deffense is a different story). All 3 are weak to Rocks before and some still after Mega, so it's not like Rocks matter as greatly (though some are affected more). Honestly, I'm upset about seeing Mence being abused so poorly. I remember while his Mega was still viable. People used to use it so well. Sub DD wrecked chaos and most people knew how to use it well. Now they seem really desperate (or maybe just inexperienced, idk). I miss MegaMence, but even I agree it had to go.

Howmander February 19th, 2015 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yveltal99 (Post 8625251)
Mega Salamence is Ubers.

In Gen 4 (I think), Salamence was Ubers.

No, they are not in the same league.

Without the Megas they are useless (Charizard and Altaria). These Megas fit his role better because of the great offensive typing they have (Deffense is a different story). All 3 are weak to Rocks before and some still after Mega, so it's not like Rocks matter as greatly (though some are affected more). Honestly, I'm upset about seeing Mence being abused so poorly. I remember while his Mega was still viable. People used to use it so well. Sub DD wrecked chaos and most people knew how to use it well. Now they seem really desperate (or maybe just inexperienced, idk). I miss MegaMence, but even I agree it had to go.

Well if you're going by tiers then it STILL doesn't make any sense to compare them since Salamence is in UU, Mega Altaria and Mega Charaizard are in OU, so if you can't compare across different tiers you still can't compare Salamence to Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/salamence
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/charizard
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/altaria

PlatinumDude February 19th, 2015 5:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625263)
Well if you're going by tiers then it STILL doesn't make any sense to compare them since Salamence is in UU, Mega Altaria and Mega Charaizard are in OU, so if you can't compare across different tiers you still can't compare Salamence to Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/salamence
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/charizard
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/altaria

Salamence's Mega Evolution was the sole reason why it saw usage in early OR/AS in the first place. It was banned because it was extremely versatile and tore things apart easily. Things that could counter the physically-based sets were generally smacked hard by the equally viable special sets.

When the Salamencite was banned to Ubers, Salamence's usage fell drastically.

Teravolt February 19th, 2015 5:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625263)
Well if you're going by tiers then it STILL doesn't make any sense to compare them since Salamence is in UU, Mega Altaria and Mega Charaizard are in OU, so if you can't compare across different tiers you still can't compare Salamence to Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/salamence
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/charizard
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/altaria


Then again, the title of this thread is called "How not to use Salamence in OU", OU being the ky word. And I thought he said Mence was OU D ranking, if I'm not mistaken? Idk could be wrong.

Khaotic Kebab February 19th, 2015 8:44 PM

Intimidate + Defense buff upon going Mega + Access to DD + Aerialated Return + Outrage = CARNAGE

Thursday February 19th, 2015 9:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaotic Kebab (Post 8625508)
Intimidate + Defense buff upon going Mega + Access to DD + Aerialated Return + Outrage = CARNAGE

Mega Mence is uber, so take out the defense buff and Aerioalite Return.

srinator February 19th, 2015 10:26 PM

mence is really bad in ou imo, and ttbh outclassed by something that i think is terrible, dnite. which is p bad in itself :/

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 3:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf (Post 8625164)
Honestly i think mence is a garbage mon this gen. I just see no viable reason to use it. Every Dragon outclasses it at its roles.

Want a specs user? Hydreigon
This.
Want a better Scarf Dragon? Garchomp
Well not really. ScarfChomp and ScarfMence are not used in the same way, Chomp is supposed to revenge kill, while Mence can revenge kill AND clean up with one moveset. The problem is that Chomp is arguably more effective at revenge killing.
Want a better DD user? Everything.
Mence has Intimidate.
Want a better mix mon? Dragonite (who is also shit and should be uu) has access to SuperPower to actually tickle Chansey and Tran on mix sets, there is also cube.
As for Dragonite, I don't really see how this pokemon is shit, due to its CB set which is extremely effective at plowing through balanced teams. Kyu-B is the one that somewhat outclasses Mence, but it lacks Fire Blast and is slower.

It also has ridiculous 4mss. If you use Iron Tail > EQ or Fire Blast you literally lose to everything bar fairies. Any Moxie isnt going to work ever. Too many revenge killers and too many set up fodder moves and immunities/mediocre neutral coverage/lack of power. Not to mention being Stealth Rock bait doesnt help.
You can use Iron Tail and get Magnezone support without needing to worry about Fire Blast. Almost all dragons need it, really. Also, at +1 Mence is honestly pretty difficult to revenge kill, since there are few scarfers who outspeed it (Keldeo? Latios? Chomp?) and only Weavile and M-Glalie (plus Mamo) revenge kill it with a prio move.
The only actual niche id use mence and you have mentioned is this, would be

Salamence @ Leftovers
248 HP / 224 Def or Sp.Def / 36 Speed (put in defenses if you use a - speed nature)
Impish / Careful / Sassy / Relaxed
Trait: Intimidate
- Wish
- Roost / Protect
- Dragon Tail / Toxic
- Flamethrower / Toxic

:\
This set looks great though. I'll try it on a semi-stall team and see how it works.

Comments in bold. You're mostly right, I just wanted to show Mence's advantages over its competition.

Yoshikko February 20th, 2015 4:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625194)
One thing I don't get is why you're putting down Salamence because various MEGA pokemon are better? Out of fairness, if you're going to compare a normal pokemon to MEGA pokemon wouldn't it be more logical to use MEGA Salamence? That's like saying "Swablu sucks because Mega Rayquaza is a much better flying type"

whaaaat? mega or not, some pokemon can fulfill the same role as others and do a better job at it. being mega has nothing to do with that rly.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 4:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshikko (Post 8625732)
whaaaat? mega or not, some pokemon can fulfill the same role as others and do a better job at it. being mega has nothing to do with that rly.

Opportunity cost, plus the fact that non-mega Charizard and Altaria really suck at taking hits, while (DD) Mence at least has Intimidate and can switch into something.

Howmander February 20th, 2015 4:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshikko (Post 8625732)
whaaaat? mega or not, some pokemon can fulfill the same role as others and do a better job at it. being mega has nothing to do with that rly.

You've gotta read the whole post and who I was replying to, not just the last post I made

halcyonic February 20th, 2015 5:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625754)
You've gotta read the whole post and who I was replying to, not just the last post I made

didnt yoshikko literally quote your whole post? lol


Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625263)
Well if you're going by tiers then it STILL doesn't make any sense to compare them since Salamence is in UU, Mega Altaria and Mega Charaizard are in OU, so if you can't compare across different tiers you still can't compare Salamence to Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/salamence
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/charizard
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/altaria

so what if salamence is uu? people use it in ou still and they're using it really badly (and the pokemon itself already is bad in ou ;x) people need to realise that they are better ddancers in ou than salamence lol

basically we can compare salamence to mega zard x/mega altaria/etc cos we are discussing salamence's viability in ou, not uu.

Howmander February 20th, 2015 5:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revere (Post 8625760)
didnt yoshikko literally quote your whole post? lol


so what if salamence is uu? people use it in ou still and they're using it really badly (and the pokemon itself already is bad in ou ;x) people need to realise that they are better ddancers in ou than salamence lol

basically we can compare salamence to mega zard x/mega altaria/etc cos we are discussing salamence's viability in ou, not uu.

Ugh, that's what I'm talking about! I initially said that why are you (the OP) comparing salemence to two megas, the person who replied to me said you CAN'T compare Salamence or Mega Salemence ot Mega Altari or Mega Charizard because they're all in different tiers (which is who I was replying to in the second place) and Salamence itself is in UU, while the two megas are on OU and Mega Salamence is in Ubers (hence the links that are being quoted but not actually looked at) Salemence is on in OU, it's listed (by Smogon) as UU so why talk about it's viability in OU when it's not listed in OU but rather UU? Isn't that like asking why we're not talking about Surskit's viability in Ubers? If it's not in the tier why ask about it? And again, all those pokemon listed (salemence, mega salemence, and Mega Charizard & MEga Altaria are all in separate teirs from each other, so is everyone just saying stuff and not trying to make sense or what's happening?

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 6:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625782)
Ugh, that's what I'm talking about! I initially said that why are you (the OP) comparing salemence to two megas, the person who replied to me said you CAN'T compare Salamence or Mega Salemence ot Mega Altari or Mega Charizard because they're all in different tiers (which is who I was replying to in the second place) and Salamence itself is in UU, while the two megas are on OU and Mega Salamence is in Ubers (hence the links that are being quoted but not actually looked at) Salemence is on in OU, it's listed (by Smogon) as UU so why talk about it's viability in OU when it's not listed in OU but rather UU? Isn't that like asking why we're not talking about Surskit's viability in Ubers? If it's not in the tier why ask about it? And again, all those pokemon listed (salemence, mega salemence, and Mega Charizard & MEga Altaria are all in separate teirs from each other, so is everyone just saying stuff and not trying to make sense or what's happening?

So basically, you think that UU and RU Pokemon are completely unviable? I'd like to know what you think about Weavile, Exploud or Mega Houndoom. Hell, Gourgeist-XL, which is PU, is viable in OU due to its awesome typing and support moves.

halcyonic February 20th, 2015 6:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howmander (Post 8625782)
Ugh, that's what I'm talking about! I initially said that why are you (the OP) comparing salemence to two megas, the person who replied to me said you CAN'T compare Salamence or Mega Salemence ot Mega Altari or Mega Charizard because they're all in different tiers (which is who I was replying to in the second place) and Salamence itself is in UU, while the two megas are on OU and Mega Salamence is in Ubers (hence the links that are being quoted but not actually looked at) Salemence is on in OU, it's listed (by Smogon) as UU so why talk about it's viability in OU when it's not listed in OU but rather UU? Isn't that like asking why we're not talking about Surskit's viability in Ubers? If it's not in the tier why ask about it? And again, all those pokemon listed (salemence, mega salemence, and Mega Charizard & MEga Altaria are all in separate teirs from each other, so is everyone just saying stuff and not trying to make sense or what's happening?

wut

ok so to clear things up (i hope), salamence is terribly outclassed at everything it does in ou, but people still use it anyway for its niches and shit. while a pokemon may be in a tier lower than ou, that doesn't mean it can't perform in ou. chesnaught is a fine example, even though it's uu, it's an excellent physical wall that can perform well in balanced and stall teams in ou.

so basically this thread was created to inform people how to effectively use salamence in ou if one ever opted to use salamence, but others have questioned why even bother with salamence when better dragons such as mega charizard x and mega altaria exist. they can be compared because this is set in the ou environment, not uu.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 12:26 PM

Then again, there are many Pokemon used incorrectly, but Salamence is one of those extreme cases. I should probably mention the DD lure set, which is yet again used the wrong way.

Anti February 20th, 2015 4:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmourPearlShipper (Post 8624614)
If you don't like rants, kindly click the back button and enjoy your stay on other threads. I use harsh language here. This doesn't mean I have something against new players, though I will admit that I like to make fun of silly sets. It's just a game after all, and if you're bitching about it... there are problems.

Promising start. lol.

But in all seriousness, I don't see the point of the thread if its purpose, by the OP's own admission, is rather self-indulgent. Rants as OPs do not start good discussions--unless you think the previous twenty or so posts have been super duper enlightening?--and Salamence is a niche Pokemon anyway. The "advice" portion is ridiculously elementary (any remotely competent player knows not to lock into Outrage when the opponent is packing Ferrothorn???? -_-) so I don't see the point. I don't know what you expected posting something that needed such a passive aggressive disclaimer ?_?

Then again, I'm sure everyone on the forum wants me to post my own rant about players who rail on lower ladder players in a thinly veiled attempt to position themselves as superior. But we wouldn't want that, now would we?

;)

With that out of the way,

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmourPearlShipper (Post 8624614)
First of all:

SALAMENCE'S DROP IN VIABILITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FAIRY-TYPE POKEMON.

Lots and lots of players seem to think this Pokemon is bad because of Fairies. Have you guys heard of a move called Iron Tail? I'm sure you did. Well, this move allows Mence to LOL at any Fairy-type not named Azumarill. Yes, I know it's inaccurate, but Gunk Shot (with an unimpressive 80% acc) sent Greninja to Ubers. That's because it was able to turn the tables on all the fairy-type Pokemon which could check it prior to ORAS. Focus Blast turned Gengar into a top threat in Gen 4 and 5. Same with Salamence, after a Dragon Dance boost, no fairy bar Azu is safe. Now you could argue that ScarfMoxieMence has taken a hit in viability, but it's not like you could spam Outrage from the get-go in BW anyway, due to Steels being everywhere. So yeah, fairies can annoy Mence a bit, but it's not like it can't adapt. And to be fair, even Azumarill takes huge damage!

You still don't believe me?

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 287-338 (79 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Yes.)
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 384-454 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 421-497 (106.8 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (unaware still gets 2HKOed)
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 506-596 (182.6 - 215.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 340-402 (141 - 166.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Iron Tail vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 455-536 (116 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 348-411 (109.7 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Iron Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 294-348 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The first line is complete nonsense - of course Fairy-types decreased its viability. Dragon became a great offensive type in DP(P) because of new/buffed high base power attacks (Outrage/Draco) and the phys/spec split, but their real advantage was always on the type chart because of their outstanding neutral coverage. Simply put, DPP Mence/Latias were so easy to spam because their STABs hit everything, even their checks, for significant damage. An early game Draco Meteor from MixMence, to use an easy example, was a play with virtually no opportunity cost. Checks like Scizor and Heatran (often more offensive in gen four than now) could lose half of their health from such an attack. Not good. Outrage was a much riskier play but Flygon just spammed U-turn and Salamence could set up a DD or just launch Draco instead if mixed. (I would give a BW example but I skipped that meta, though I'm assuming the basic "high base power + amazing neutral coverage = death" formula remained.)

The presence of Fairies makes low-risk plays like early game Draco Meteors (and obviously any Outrage) much trickier for the Dragon user. If I'm running Latios, for example, and my opponent has Azumarill, then Draco could give one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the game a free switch-in. In short, the Dragon immunity that Fairies have puts much more pressure on Dragon users to make plays instead of spamming STABs. This change has probably been positive for the metagame, but how easy a Pokemon is to use absolutely factors into its viability. Why do you think Keldeo is S-rank or Landorus-T is so popular? Even if Salamence is able to "make the play" (like hitting Clefable with Iron Tail), doing so requires sacrificing a move slot and also pressures the Salamence user to predict correctly. When Salamence has one fewer free moveslot and its STAB is less fearsome in real battles situations, then yes, its viability has suffered as a direct result of the introduction of the Fairy type.

(A more contemporary example might be Mega Gardevoir. It can plow past Heatran with Focus Blast, but Heatran's presence undoubtedly hurts its effectiveness in battle since it makes Hyper Voice much more difficult to spam, especially if the Heatran is Scarfed or the Heatran user can switch Tran into HV and then something like Gengar into a predicted Focus Blast. In theory, Gardevoir creams that team or that combo, but since it is forced to predict to avoid being forced out, the theorymon kind of falls apart. It's an iffy example but gets the point across well enough.)

It's just more bad theorymon to say "uh Iron Tail lol" to dismiss that point, especially on a mon whose main niche uses a choice set and a STAB move that locks the user in for another turn or two. How is the threat of, say, a BD Azumarill set-up NOT a problem for Salamence? And yes, Steels did exist in DP/BW, but they were less effective at stopping Dragon moves (obviously: resistance < immunity), and their continued existence along with Fairies means that it now takes two coverage moves instead of one for Dragons to threaten Fairies, though the real numbers are probably three instead of two because Dragons typically ran Ground/Fire for Heatran and Skarm/Zong (lol RIP Bronzong) in the past.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 20th, 2015 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8626467)
Promising start. lol.

But in all seriousness, I don't see the point of the thread if its purpose, by the OP's own admission, is rather self-indulgent. Rants as OPs do not start good discussions--unless you think the previous twenty or so posts have been super duper enlightening?--and Salamence is a niche Pokemon anyway. The "advice" portion is ridiculously elementary (any remotely competent player knows not to lock into Outrage when the opponent is packing Ferrothorn???? -_-) so I don't see the point. I don't know what you expected posting something that needed such a passive aggressive disclaimer ?_?

Then again, I'm sure everyone on the forum wants me to post my own rant about players who rail on lower ladder players in a thinly veiled attempt to position themselves as superior. But we wouldn't want that, now would we?

;)
Why not?
With that out of the way,



The first line is complete nonsense - of course Fairy-types decreased its viability. Dragon became a great offensive type in DP(P) because of new/buffed high base power attacks (Outrage/Draco) and the phys/spec split, but their real advantage was always on the type chart because of their outstanding neutral coverage. Simply put, DPP Mence/Latias were so easy to spam because their STABs hit everything, even their checks, for significant damage. An early game Draco Meteor from MixMence, to use an easy example, was a play with virtually no opportunity cost. Checks like Scizor and Heatran (often more offensive in gen four than now) could lose half of their health from such an attack. Not good. Outrage was a much riskier play but Flygon just spammed U-turn and Salamence could set up a DD or just launch Draco instead if mixed. (I would give a BW example but I skipped that meta, though I'm assuming the basic "high base power + amazing neutral coverage = death" formula remained.)

The presence of Fairies makes low-risk plays like early game Draco Meteors (and obviously any Outrage) much trickier for the Dragon user. If I'm running Latios, for example, and my opponent has Azumarill, then Draco could give one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the game a free switch-in. In short, the Dragon immunity that Fairies have puts much more pressure on Dragon users to make plays instead of spamming STABs. This change has probably been positive for the metagame, but how easy a Pokemon is to use absolutely factors into its viability. Why do you think Keldeo is S-rank or Landorus-T is so popular? Even if Salamence is able to "make the play" (like hitting Clefable with Iron Tail), doing so requires sacrificing a move slot and also pressures the Salamence user to predict correctly. When Salamence has one fewer free moveslot and its STAB is less fearsome in real battles situations, then yes, its viability has suffered as a direct result of the introduction of the Fairy type.

(A more contemporary example might be Mega Gardevoir. It can plow past Heatran with Focus Blast, but Heatran's presence undoubtedly hurts its effectiveness in battle since it makes Hyper Voice much more difficult to spam, especially if the Heatran is Scarfed or the Heatran user can switch Tran into HV and then something like Gengar into a predicted Focus Blast. In theory, Gardevoir creams that team or that combo, but since it is forced to predict to avoid being forced out, the theorymon kind of falls apart. It's an iffy example but gets the point across well enough.)

It's just more bad theorymon to say "uh Iron Tail lol" to dismiss that point, especially on a mon whose main niche uses a choice set and a STAB move that locks the user in for another turn or two. How is the threat of, say, a BD Azumarill set-up NOT a problem for Salamence? And yes, Steels did exist in DP/BW, but they were less effective at stopping Dragon moves (obviously: resistance < immunity), and their continued existence along with Fairies means that it now takes two coverage moves instead of one for Dragons to threaten Fairies, though the real numbers are probably three instead of two because Dragons typically ran Ground/Fire for Heatran and Skarm/Zong (lol RIP Bronzong) in the past.

First of all, I'm not theorymonning because I actually used these sets in practice.

Now considering that Salamence was sent to ubers in DPPt, you are right to an extent, but Scizor and Heatran took half damage from Draco Meteor? I mean, they could run specially defensive spreads if they really wanted to, and predicting a switch was much harder since there was no team preview and bullshit. Not all Scizor were Choice Band variants and not all Heatran were offensive variants. This especially applies to Scizor, since defensive heatran saw usage on balanced/stall. Also AFAIK Mence was actually banned for its DD set. Then again, I don't have too much experience with gen 4 but I can tell you that I used MixNite on one of my teams and found out that it was actually pretty hard to use.

About your second paragraph: Keldeo is S-rank because it has multiple viable sets and pairs extremely well with Mega Metagross, while Scarf Lando-T sees so much usage because it's the best pivot in the game imo. Then I can easily tell you that the same thing can be said to steel-types, especially in BW since they didn't take too much damage from Fire Blast, as rain was fucking everywhere. The only Dragon-type attack that could get past Ferro was Kyu-B's Outrage, and that's only with a Choice Band. Steel-types also put pressure on a dragon's attempt to spam Draco/Outrage, just like fairies do, and most of the viable OU ones actually aren't weak to Earthquake (Ferro, Skarm, Mega Scizor, Bronzong). Not to mention rain is still a thing and Mence has trouble KOing these steels.

Salamence needed Magnezone support since BW imo. This thing can easily trap Ferrothorn and Skarmory and kick their sorry asses while laughing at everything they tried to use (well, skarm has whirlwind, but you get my point). Forretress is also starting to become a thing due to the release of Custap Berry, and guess who takes care of it? That's right, Magnezone.

Now let's go to Fairies. You know what Pokemon can remove them? Magnezone! Of course, unlike Ferro, said fairies can switch out to something that walls it. But no ground-type likes to take a Choice Specs-boosted Flash Cannon to the face. If the opponent has Heatran, Magnezone can just Volt Switch back to Salamence, and then you can set up. This works especially with entry hazards. Bisharp/Thundurus is good to have as well(but not entirely needed).

Quote:

When Salamence has one fewer free moveslot and its STAB is less fearsome in real battles situations, then yes, its viability has suffered as a direct result of the introduction of the Fairy type.
And yet Greninja needed to rely on Gunk Shot to get past Fairies, and that move has 80% accuracy. And look where it is now. Tornadus-T relies on two 70% accurate moves (Hurricane and Focus Blast), but it's still a very legitimate threat. Actually, lots of things need to rely on Focus Miss, and yet that move increases their viability a lot. Same with Mence.

As for Belly Drum Azumarill, Mence can play mindgames with it. Earthquake is a 2HKO and after SR it beats it even after Sitrus Berry has been activated. Mindgames, as you know, are crucial in OU (Bisharp is known for this). Since Mence is paired with Magnezone (if you're actually using a competitive team), Azu needs to predict if it switches out or goes for the 2HKO.

I'm not trying to be ignorant since your points are actually pretty good. But I don't think Mence's viability in OU has anything to do with Fairies.

Anti February 21st, 2015 3:54 AM

Nothing you said actually contradicts my point. My post was about about it's not that Salamence can't get past Fairies but that doing so hampers its versatility and utilization in-battle. When you say things like "Salamence can play mind games with Azumarill" you are pretty much making my point for me. The whole point is that Salamence is much harder to use now because, in previous generations, it could just steamroll it with its Dragon STAB. It was a 100/0 play instead of a 50/50 play. (And, if you really want to go analyze it, it's even worse than a 50/50 play since Earthquake is a terrible move to get choice-locked into and "luring Azumarill" could very well be a tactical victory but a strategic blunder.)

If you are seriously arguing that such situations haven't hurt its viability or effectiveness, then your understanding of what viability consists in is flawed.

[It seems to me that you're annoyed with the idea that people think that "because of Fairies Salamence sucks," and you'd be correct to say that such an argument is hyperbolic and is wrong. But it's also a straw man, and all you are doing is replacing one hyperbole with another ("Mence's viability doesn't have anything to do with Fairies") which is probably even more indefensible. Then again, I've been working on this awesome thread about how Ground-types don't affect the viability of my beloved Raikou at all. x_x]

Spoiler:
As for the more peripheral details,

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you don't understand DPP, I would just avoid commenting on it. If Scizor ran a specially defensive spread, its Bullet Punch no longer KOes Salamence after SR + LO recoil (from the Draco), so it will actually lose to Fire Blast 1v1 even though it got in safely. So it's not even a check. And the normal CB variant can only switch in once since it takes 48%-54% from Draco after SR:

240 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 121-143 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There's also this:

240 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 508-600 (148.1 - 174.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The fun part is that I'm running calcs with MixMence v2 when v1, still perfectly viable up until its ban, ran Rash and max SAtk, so it was even stronger.

Heatran is an even worse example since MixMence v2 runs Earthquake (so switching Tran in accomplishes nothing) and SDef Tran didn't even run an attack that could harm it. The only switch-in that can beat Salamence 1v1 is Scarftran, and as for that...

240 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Heatran: 105-125 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO

Not exactly a free switch-in. Let's hope they don't lead off with Earthquake! And if it's DDMence, you're just totally screwed.

Speaking of DDMence, Salamence wasn't banned for one set. In general, such summaries tend to be really inaccurate (like "Aegislash got banned because of King's Shield") since they oversimplify complex relationships that suspects have with their metagames. I've noticed this in a lot of your posts, actually, so I would encourage you to try to dig for more nuance. ("Keldeo is S-rank because it has multiple viable sets and pairs well with Mega Metagross" - cool, I could say the same thing about Clefable, or Gliscor, or probably even some BS C-rank poke lol. It's more complicated than that etc. etc.) Anyway, Salamence got banned because all of its sets were ridiculous and the fact that its two best sets doubled as great breakers and sweepers that pretty much nothing could stop did not help.

I'm sure having Fairy-type Azumarill or Clefable around wouldn't have helped at all, though. :|)

As for Magnezone, Fairies are just going to switch out of it (and Mag loses to many of them if running Specs as you seem to think it should be). I don't know what Magnezone actually has to do with anything though. If Steels and Fairies disappeared with the wave of my magic Magnezone wand, I would rather make my abuser a Cube or a Latios or, hell, any of the numerous Fairies that also struggle with those types.

Anyway, you say things like "don't use Salamence until late game" but saying things like that is how I know it' bad theorymon, even if you don't realize it. If one sixth of your team requires support such that it is tactically deficient in the early game, then its in-battle performance is hampered because it lacks flexibility. An obvious example of this would be a "one-time only" sweeper, like SubPetaya Agility Empoleon from DPP or BD Azumarill now. When a Pokemon has to dance around the opposing team to keep its own tactical game intact, it means that the mon has far less utility than an alternative. On paper, this can be brushed aside, but when you're playing with five mons instead of six early or mid game, you options become more limited, which can have very real effects on the outcome of a match. The fact that you just brush this point aside is not helping your credibility.

Greninja is a terrible comparison since it functions completely differently as an offensive Pokemon than Mence (and most anything else really) and I'm not even going to bother breaking that down; if it's not completely obvious why that comparison is just silly, then, to quote a wise man, "It's over Anakin - I have the high ground." hnnnnnng.

Also, moves like Focus Blast or Iron Tail in this case increase viability in a vacuum but the fact that their usage is necessary suggests that the ineffectiveness of their STABs and other coverage moves have hurt the mon's viability more than the random crappy coverage move (FB/IT) has helped it. Just like how Earthquake increases Tauros's viability in a vacuum, but the reason it's there--the presence of Steel-types that were a huge reason it fell out of OU--is the real story.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 21st, 2015 4:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8627017)
Nothing you said actually contradicts my point. My post was about about it's not that Salamence can't get past Fairies but that doing so hampers its versatility and utilization in-battle. When you say things like "Salamence can play mind games with Azumarill" you are pretty much making my point for me. The whole point is that Salamence is much harder to use now because, in previous generations, it could just steamroll it with its Dragon STAB. It was a 100/0 play instead of a 50/50 play. (And, if you really want to go analyze it, it's even worse than a 50/50 play since Earthquake is a terrible move to get choice-locked into and "luring Azumarill" could very well be a tactical victory but a strategic blunder.)
Mence was already a prediction-reliant Pokemon in BW. Azumarill is probably the only Fairy that truly puts pressure on Mence, because it's not weak to Iron Tail.

If you are seriously arguing that such situations haven't hurt its viability or effectiveness, then your understanding of what viability consists in is flawed.

But Mence already had this problem back in BW when every team packed a steel and rain was used on, like, 20% of all teams. That is enormous.
[It seems to me that you're annoyed with the idea that people think that "because of Fairies Salamence sucks," and you'd be correct to say that such an argument is hyperbolic and is wrong. But it's also a straw man, and all you are doing is replacing one hyperbole with another ("Mence's viability doesn't have anything to do with Fairies") which is probably even more indefensible. Then again, I've been working on this awesome thread about how Ground-types don't affect the viability of my beloved Raikou at all. x_x]
I will admit that I'm annoyed with this idea. People are acting like Salamence can't adapt to mechanical changes and thus is shit, when it sucks because of how outclassed it is. But my point still stands, Fairies are hesistant to switch into Mence in the first place and can't really stop it at +1.
Spoiler:
As for the more peripheral details,

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you don't understand DPP, I would just avoid commenting on it. If Scizor ran a specially defensive spread, its Bullet Punch no longer KOes Salamence after SR + LO recoil (from the Draco), so it will actually lose to Fire Blast 1v1 even though it got in safely. So it's not even a check. And the normal CB variant can only switch in once since it takes 48%-54% from Draco after SR:
By "specially defensive" I mean CB Scizor with 176 SpD, which is the general spread I use as it helps Scizor trap Gengar and Starmie much more effectively. Don't know how truly effective it is, though. You're right here though, Mence was insanely strong back in DPP and probably deserved the axe.
240 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 121-143 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There's also this:

240 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 508-600 (148.1 - 174.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The fun part is that I'm running calcs with MixMence v2 when v1, still perfectly viable up until its ban, ran Rash and max SAtk, so it was even stronger.

Heatran is an even worse example since MixMence v2 runs Earthquake (so switching Tran in accomplishes nothing) and SDef Tran didn't even run an attack that could harm it. The only switch-in that can beat Salamence 1v1 is Scarftran, and as for that...

240 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Heatran: 105-125 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
Only problem is that if you see Heatran switching into your MixMence, it's pretty obvious that it's scarfed, and you would normally switch out in fear of HP Ice or Explosion.
Not exactly a free switch-in. Let's hope they don't lead off with Earthquake! And if it's DDMence, you're just totally screwed.

Speaking of DDMence, Salamence wasn't banned for one set. In general, such summaries tend to be really inaccurate (like "Aegislash got banned because of King's Shield") since they oversimplify complex relationships that suspects have with their metagames. I've noticed this in a lot of your posts, actually, so I would encourage you to try to dig for more nuance. ("Keldeo is S-rank because it has multiple viable sets and pairs well with Mega Metagross" - cool, I could say the same thing about Clefable, or Gliscor, or probably even some BS C-rank poke lol. It's more complicated than that etc. etc.) Anyway, Salamence got banned because all of its sets were ridiculous and the fact that its two best sets doubled as great breakers and sweepers that pretty much nothing could stop did not help.
Maybe I was unclear. I never said Salamence was banned for just one set, if anything I recall MixMence getting abused and so the DD set became so much better. About Keldeo, I just gave a generic explanation, but I do think that it probably wouldn't have been so influential without MMeta.
I'm sure having Fairy-type Azumarill or Clefable around wouldn't have helped at all, though. :|)

As for Magnezone, Fairies are just going to switch out of it (and Mag loses to many of them if running Specs as you seem to think it should be). I don't know what Magnezone actually has to do with anything though. If Steels and Fairies disappeared with the wave of my magic Magnezone wand, I would rather make my abuser a Cube or a Latios or, hell, any of the numerous Fairies that also struggle with those types.
Ummmm... Mega Diancie? That thing carries Earth Power.

Not all Mega Gardy run Focus Miss, Clefable is slower, Azumarill is weak to Thunderbolt and Mega Altaria needs Earthquake to eliminate this magnet...


Anyway, you say things like "don't use Salamence until late game" but saying things like that is how I know it' bad theorymon, even if you don't realize it. If one sixth of your team requires support such that it is tactically deficient in the early game, then its in-battle performance is hampered because it lacks flexibility. An obvious example of this would be a "one-time only" sweeper, like SubPetaya Agility Empoleon from DPP or BD Azumarill now. When a Pokemon has to dance around the opposing team to keep its own tactical game intact, it means that the mon has far less utility than an alternative. On paper, this can be brushed aside, but when you're playing with five mons instead of six early or mid game, you options become more limited, which can have very real effects on the outcome of a match. The fact that you just brush this point aside is not helping your credibility.
I don't think you've actually used Mence in XY. Then again, I don't think this will help considering it might sound to you like Christians saying "You just need to read the Bible to understand God's word". (Nothing against religion).

Also BD Azu can help even at early-game.


Greninja is a terrible comparison since it functions completely differently as an offensive Pokemon than Mence (and most anything else really) and I'm not even going to bother breaking that down; if it's not completely obvious why that comparison is just silly, then, to quote a wise man, "It's over Anakin - I have the high ground." hnnnnnng.
I concede here.
Also, moves like Focus Blast or Iron Tail in this case increase viability in a vacuum but the fact that their usage is necessary suggests that the ineffectiveness of their STABs and other coverage moves have hurt the mon's viability more than the random crappy coverage move (FB/IT) has helped it. Just like how Earthquake increases Tauros's viability in a vacuum, but the reason it's there--the presence of Steel-types that were a huge reason it fell out of OU--is the real story.
Again, note how most Steel-types were neutral/immune to Earthquake in GSC. I don't really know this meta but I heard that Forretress and Skarmory are big staples due to spikes and stuff.

Comments in bold. I think this discussion is becoming shitty, and I saw three off-topic posts. Nothing against you, you might be a better player than me overall. You're right in a few areas, but you still haven't convinced me. If Haxorus destroys Fairy-types left and right with its DD set, then I don't see why Mence can't.

Now that I think about it though, you're probably right about ScarfMoxie, but I'm still not sure. My point is that Fairies haven't hampered Salamence's viability because they find it hard to switch into it in the first place. The fact that most of them are slower doesn't help either. Azu is really the only Fairy which can put pressure on it.

One more thing:

Quote:

But in all seriousness, I don't see the point of the thread if its purpose, by the OP's own admission, is rather self-indulgent. Rants as OPs do not start good discussions--unless you think the previous twenty or so posts have been super duper enlightening?--and Salamence is a niche Pokemon anyway. The "advice" portion is ridiculously elementary (any remotely competent player knows not to lock into Outrage when the opponent is packing Ferrothorn???? ) so I don't see the point. I don't know what you expected posting something that needed such a passive aggressive disclaimer ?_?
PokeCommunity is not Smogon. Players here aren't nearly as good as the ones you find on Smogon. There are probably many casual players here who lock themselves into Outrage when the opponent is packing Ferro.


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