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-   -   Salamence Rant: How NOT to use Salamence in OU (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=344342)

Cerberus87 February 21st, 2015 5:49 AM

Never thought I'd see the day when Salamence is outclassed by Charizard... {XD}

Of course, Mega Mence trounces Mega Zard, but it's still hilarious to see regular Mence not keep up with the power creep.

Anti February 21st, 2015 5:55 AM

More self-loathing from yours truly,

Quote:

Mence was already a prediction-reliant Pokemon in BW. Azumarill is probably the only Fairy that truly puts pressure on Mence, because it's not weak to Iron Tail.
And now it's even more prediction-reliant. If my opponent has Clefable and Heatran, that's a much harder prediction to make than if they just have Heatran. Also, locking yourself into Iron Tail sucks, and is another "win the battle/lose the war" scenario.

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But Mence already had this problem back in BW when every team packed a steel and rain was used on, like, 20% of all teams. That is enormous.
And now that problem is even worse. If you don't see why this matters, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. This is like saying that Alakazam was already walled by Chansey, so the introduction of Tyranitar is irrelevant/did not hurt Alakazam's viability. Of course it did.

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I will admit that I'm annoyed with this idea. People are acting like Salamence can't adapt to mechanical changes and thus is shit, when it sucks because of how outclassed it is. But my point still stands, Fairies are hesistant to switch into Mence in the first place and can't really stop it at +1.
These ill-defined "people" are of little concern to us here. You're arguing with no one.

Doing so is a surefire way to start a bad discussion.

And yes, as most good players will tell you, Salamence is outclassed, as you have noted. Yet you keep presenting a false choice, or false mutual exclusivity, between its viability being hampered by other Pokemon outclassing it and Fairies making it less effective. Both of these things can be true, and they are in this case. You're frustrated that people act like the latter reason (Fairies) is the only reason Salamence is not very viable, but then you do the same thing by attaching yourself to the former reason (being outclassed) and presenting equally simplistic rhetoric. That is the fundamental absurdity of this thread's mission.

(In fact, your argument is even more skewed since it denies that any other reason besides the one you've presented could possibly affect its viability. This is exactly the type of reasoning that craps up threads like this. Ugh.)

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Ummmm... Mega Diancie? That thing carries Earth Power.

Not all Mega Gardy run Focus Miss, Clefable is slower, Azumarill is weak to Thunderbolt and Mega Altaria needs Earthquake to eliminate this magnet...
Any good Mega Altaria will be running EQ, Fire Blast, or both. Mega Gardevoir almost always runs a move for Steel-types, and Mag takes a huge chunk (like 40% or something) from Timid Hyper Voice anyway. Mega Diancie indeed runs Earth Power. Clefable can hit it with Flamethrower on the switch. Azumarill is going to lose this match-up unless Mag tries to switch in on it.

Of the five, three outright beat Magnezone 1v1. It can't switch in on the other two (though it can on many Clefable variants). I don't know what to tell you.

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I don't think you've actually used Mence in XY.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

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My point is that Fairies haven't hampered Salamence's viability because they find it hard to switch into it in the first place. The fact that most of them are slower doesn't help either. Azu is really the only Fairy which can put pressure on it.
The bolded line is a non-sequitur. Your evidence does not prove your claim. It's not that you're wrong to say that Fairies might struggle to switch in, but you never demonstrate why this means that Fairies don't affect its viability. It might seem self-explanatory, but flesh out the logic (or illogic) more and it falls apart. The underlying assumption of the above argument, then, is that so long as a Pokemon has trouble switching into something, it doesn't hamper something's viability. Or that, if a Pokemon can muscle past a check with a coverage move, that the check in question does not hold the other mon back. Something like that. The reasoning is actually quite ill-defined, which is why it is porous logic in the first place.

Whatever the underlying assumption is, it doesn't address the pressures of execution that I discussed in detail in previous posts (which still hasn't been addressed at all except for a repetition of this same argument about "well they can't switch in so HA!"). If you're going to just ignore the nuances of the game that others are presenting because they don't fit your notion of viability, then there isn't much point in posting a thread like this.

Also, any Fairy puts pressure on it since they can all cripple, OHKO, and/or set up on it. I don't know what you mean by "pressure" if mons that are faster with a STAB super-effective attack like Mega Diancie apparently don't count. ?_? Are you talking about hard checks? Be more precise.

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There are probably many casual players here who lock themselves into Outrage when the opponent is packing Ferro.
This is not the type of thread that helps bad players get better. Threads that do are actually constructive.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 21st, 2015 6:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 8627076)
More self-loathing from yours truly,



And now it's even more prediction-reliant. If my opponent has Clefable and Heatran, that's a much harder prediction to make than if they just have Heatran. Also, locking yourself into Iron Tail sucks, and is another "win the battle/lose the war" scenario.

Actually I think I'm going to agree with you on ScarfMoxie and will probably update the OP.
But I'll just say this: of course you need heavy prediction, just like in BW. BTW, many teams in BW carried two steel-types on their team. I remember the Torn-T era where I fought tons of sample Politoed/Torn-T/Ferrothorn/Jirachi/Tentacruel/Dugtrio. Even after Torn-T's ban, these teams carried Moltres or some other hurricane spammer. There are lots of things that come in play here. Your opponent needs to tell which set your Salamence carries. Secondly, you could always double switch.


And now that problem is even worse. If you don't see why this matters, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. This is like saying that Alakazam was already walled by Chansey, so the introduction of Tyranitar is irrelevant/did not hurt Alakazam's viability. Of course it did.

Alakazam isn't even walled by Chansey, it can run Encore and turn the tables on it. Then there's the fact that Alakazam outspeeds even ScarfTar.

These ill-defined "people" are of little concern to us here. You're arguing with no one.

Doing so is a surefire way to start a bad discussion.

And yes, as most good players will tell you, Salamence is outclassed, as you have noted. Yet you keep presenting a false choice, or false mutual exclusivity, between its viability being hampered by other Pokemon outclassing it and Fairies making it less effective. Both of these things can be true, and they are in this case. You're frustrated that people act like the latter reason (Fairies) is the only reason Salamence is not very viable, but then you do the same thing by attaching yourself to the former reason (being outclassed) and presenting equally simplistic rhetoric. That is the fundamental absurdity of this thread's mission.
Sorry but you make your opinion sound like a fact here...
(In fact, your argument is even more skewed since it denies that any other reason besides the one you've presented could possibly affect its viability. This is exactly the type of reasoning that craps up threads like this. Ugh.)



Any good Mega Altaria will be running EQ, Fire Blast, or both. Mega Gardevoir almost always runs a move for Steel-types, and Mag takes a huge chunk (like 40% or something) from Timid Hyper Voice anyway. Mega Diancie indeed runs Earth Power. Clefable can hit it with Flamethrower on the switch. Azumarill is going to lose this match-up unless Mag tries to switch in on it.

Of the five, three outright beat Magnezone 1v1. It can't switch in on the other two (though it can on many Clefable variants). I don't know what to tell you.

Not all Mega Altaria run max speed and not all Mega Gardy run Focus Miss or HP Ground. Ultimately though, this is completely based on prediction.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
When I said "this is probably not a good way to tell you...". But seriously, ever used Mence in XY?


The bolded line is a non-sequitur. Your evidence does not prove your claim. It's not that you're wrong to say that Fairies might struggle to switch in, but you never demonstrate why this means that Fairies don't affect its viability. It might seem self-explanatory, but flesh out the logic (or illogic) more and it falls apart. The underlying assumption of the above argument, then, is that so long as a Pokemon has trouble switching into something, it doesn't hamper something's viability. Or that, if a Pokemon can muscle past a check with a coverage move, that the check in question does not hold the other mon back. Something like that. The reasoning is actually quite ill-defined, which is why it is porous logic in the first place.

Whatever the underlying assumption is, it doesn't address the pressures of execution that I discussed in detail in previous posts (which still hasn't been addressed at all except for a repetition of this same argument about "well they can't switch in so HA!"). If you're going to just ignore the nuances of the game that others are presenting because they don't fit your notion of viability, then there isn't much point in posting a thread like this.

Also, any Fairy puts pressure on it since they can all cripple, OHKO, and/or set up on it. I don't know what you mean by "pressure" if mons that are faster with a STAB super-effective attack like Mega Diancie apparently don't count. ?_? Are you talking about hard checks? Be more precise.
Hypotetical scenario, assuming SR is up on both sides and Diancie is already Mega Evolved (since we're talking about it and it actually outspeeds Mence):
Let's see. My offensive Heatran just killed your Magnezone. You have a DD Salamence and you switch it in on my Heatran. I also have a Mega Diancie at 60% health. You switch in your Mence and take Stealth Rock damage. If I switch to Diancie as you use Dragon Dance, I lose. If I switch to Diancie as you use Earthquake, I lose. If I stay in with Heatran as you use Earthquake, I lose. If I stay in with Heatran as you use Dragon Dance... Flash Cannon deals like 55% damage, and your Mence can still kill two Pokemon before succumbing to LO recoil, so you could say that I lose.

This applies to basically any fairy-type not named Azumarill, which needs to be at full health. I apologize if I sound ignorant.

That's the problem: Mence can take advantage of all fairies if it manages to boost. MixMence deals heavy damage with EQ + Iron Tail. Even ScarfMoxie can 2HKO all of them with good prediction and SR.


This is not the type of thread that helps bad players get better. Threads that do are actually constructive.

Normally I think that Pokemon A is hampered by the introduction of some random mechanic, but I feel like Salamence's case is justified. Mence has the power and the coverage tools needed to kill Fairy-type Pokemon. That's the problem. ScarfMoxie needs to predict, sure, but DD and mixed?

And I still fail to see how can Fairies hamper Mence's viability. I fail to see how can they stop it at +1 and I fail to see how can they switch into it in the first place. Until GameFreak makes a Fairy-type prio move or a fairy-type pokemon with 125/150 physical defense or something, I doubt that's about to change.

You can say that Fairies forced Mence to use Iron Tail, but Salamence already had excellent coverage between Dragon Claw and Earthquake. It's called adaptation.

Dark Azelf February 21st, 2015 7:24 AM

Quote:

Alakazam isn't even walled by Chansey, it can run Encore and turn the tables on it. Then there's the fact that Alakazam outspeeds even ScarfTar.
He meant the transition from gen 1 to 2. Where Zam went from superstar to meh.

Also yes chansey walls it, in every gen. What is Encore going to to, lock it into SToss to kill you quicker or lock it into T-Wave/Toxic to...still kill you lol??

Anti February 21st, 2015 7:46 AM

More self-loathing from yours truly,

Quote:

But I'll just say this: of course you need heavy prediction, just like in BW. BTW, many teams in BW carried two steel-types on their team. I remember the Torn-T era where I fought tons of sample Politoed/Torn-T/Ferrothorn/Jirachi/Tentacruel/Dugtrio. Even after Torn-T's ban, these teams carried Moltres or some other hurricane spammer. There are lots of things that come in play here. Your opponent needs to tell which set your Salamence carries. Secondly, you could always double switch.
I am confused as to what this example is trying to demonstrate.

Quote:

Alakazam isn't even walled by Chansey, it can run Encore and turn the tables on it. Then there's the fact that Alakazam outspeeds even ScarfTar.
I was referring to the transition from RBY to GSC, though I apologize as this was unclear. Reread the point with that in mind now.

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Sorry but you make your opinion sound like a fact here...
This is irrelevant/a red herring fallacy/not answering the content of my post. (Also, pot meet kettle, but whatever.)

Instead of objecting to the tone of my rhetoric, maybe consider what I said in that part of the post and how maybe your argument might be similar to the very arguments you are frustrated with. Or if you don't think so, I'm curious how you think it's any different.

Quote:

Not all Mega Altaria run max speed and not all Mega Gardy run Focus Miss or HP Ground. Ultimately though, this is completely based on prediction.
Not all Mega Gardevoir run Hyper Voice either. The good ones do though. Just like the good Mega Altarias will outpace most any Specs Magnezone and any good Mega Gardevoir will run a coverage move for Steel-types. You're citing bad sets to try to make a point, and it's not very productive.

And it's not based on prediction when Gardevoir and Altaria are both faster than Magnezone so they can just OHKO it with their respective coverage moves. Choice Specs Magnezone is a bad Fairy check. Period. It loses 1v1 to all of the Fairy megas that run sets that aren't garbage and can't switch into the non-mega Fairies reliably. Exclamation point!

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But seriously, ever used Mence in XY?
I haven't, and it's totally irrelevant. This point's only purpose is to undermine my credibility on the topic, which besides being fallacious, is really annoying. Here:

How about you tell me about your ladder peaks with Salamence? I'd love to see some high-level replays, or do you not have any of those? Can someone who runs ScarfCube semi-stall really tell me about how to effectively run Dragons in the OU tier?

Ad-hominems aren't so fun anymore, are they?

So please stop.

Quote:

Mence can take advantage of all fairies if it manages to boost. MixMence deals heavy damage with EQ + Iron Tail. Even ScarfMoxie can 2HKO all of them with good prediction and SR.

And I still fail to see how can Fairies hamper Mence's viability. I fail to see how can they stop it at +1 and I fail to see how can they switch into it in the first place. Until GameFreak makes a Fairy-type prio move or a fairy-type pokemon with 125/150 physical defense or something, I doubt that's about to change.

this whole long blurb about how fairies can't switch in etc. etc.
You keep repeating this point. Over and over again. Notice how I am not disputing it factually but questioning its relevance in light of other factors (like difficulty of usage, opportunity cost, prediction-reliance, restriction on movesets, etc.) which you might want to actually discuss. Arguing well isn't repeating one point over and over again and omitting other relevant factors. "I wonder why this thread hasn't been received very well?"

You keep conflating Fairies "hampering viability" with Fairies "switching in safely" when the two are related but totally different. As I've outlined repeatedly.

KorpiklaaniVodka February 21st, 2015 8:49 AM

Removed references to the whole Salamence and Fairies thing. I guess you won this argument.

I don't want this thread to become shitty, and I'll concede. I never studied logic in school.

As for leader peaks with Mence, it was something around ~1720 with a random nickname (don't have replays :( ) and it's a re-edit of this team. Just Mence over Goodra and Jirachi over Azumarill.


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