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DarkSkys July 23rd, 2015 11:11 PM

Whats going on with the world?
 
We have ISIS, Cops attacking for no reason, sexual bashing & fights over a battle flag.


ISIS, recruiting American teens around the world to do what they want. Or use Muslims, in Tennessee 5 Marines killed. If there trying to bring that war to the homeland, I'm loaded and will shoot to protect what I believe and grew up on.


Cops, been said on the news that they shot and killed a kid named Brown last year. They also had a 5 on 1 beat down in another state. I've never liked Cops, reason being is from thinks like this. How can I trust there going to protect me if they do this?


Gay Marriage, I 'm bisexual and happy for this. Now before it was approved their was people that didn't like same sex couples, but once approved I've seen reports of Gays being physically attacked by Christians, which is something I believe no Christian nor anybody should do. Don't have to like the choices of others, and it doesn't affect you.


Battle Flag, better the Confederate flag, a symbol of the South. I fly this flag. Not as a hate flag but as a symbol of my heritage. Just because some nutjob kills some blacks doesn't mean this flag is racist. Its the person that uses it for that. is the one that's racist. I do not support the KKK. I watched a video earlier on this, the guy says we don't need a race war in America at this time, we have to many things now and starting a race war will just open us up for a terrorist attack.

Spiff July 23rd, 2015 11:34 PM

The world will always look pretty shitty if you choose to look at it through that lens.

Her July 24th, 2015 12:11 AM

While I'll get to the 'the world's falling apart around me!' point of the topic soon, I can't help but make my views known over the examples listed in the OP. Whether or not anyone wishes to respond is up to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8860340)
ISIS, recruiting American teens around the world to do what they want. Or use Muslims, in Tennessee 5 Marines killed. If there trying to bring that war to the homeland, I'm loaded and will shoot to protect what I believe and grew up on.

This doesn't sit right with me as it's overly aggressive towards an incredibly unlikely impossibility and seems to ignore the fact that America is the reason ISIS exists in the first place.

Quote:

Cops, been said on the news that they shot and killed a kid named Brown last year. They also had a 5 on 1 beat down in another state. I've never liked Cops, reason being is from thinks like this. How can I trust there going to protect me if they do this?
Michael Brown, may he rest in power.
I'm jumping ahead a bit here, but given your predilection to flying the Confederate flag as noted a couple of paragraphs later, I'm highly dubious that you will ever face the violent oppression of the police.

Quote:

Gay Marriage, I 'm bisexual and happy for this. Now before it was approved their was people that didn't like same sex couples, but once approved I've seen reports of Gays being physically attacked by Christians, which is something I believe no Christian nor anybody should do. Don't have to like the choices of others, and it doesn't affect you.
It will phase out, or at least be subdued. Radical Christians, as they are becoming known as due to the increased acceptance of LGBT people by the Christian religious population, will be ostracised by the general public. There will be further incidences but like with any adjustment of social norms and advancements in society, those who rally against the rising tide will be swept under.

Quote:

Battle Flag, better the Confederate flag, a symbol of the South. I fly this flag. Not as a hate flag but as a symbol of my heritage. Just because some nutjob kills some blacks doesn't mean this flag is racist. Its the person that uses it for that. is the one that's racist. I do not support the KKK. I watched a video earlier on this, the guy says we don't need a race war in America at this time, we have to many things now and starting a race war will just open us up for a terrorist attack.
I have no interest in turning this thread into a 'race argument' as that isn't the point of the thread, but it's willful ignorance to claim that the Confederate Flag is not racist. It's a symbol of centuries of race-based oppression and how that oppression was sanctioned by a government and many of its citizens. Its very existence is to symbolise hate - it was created with the express purpose of having a visual image of white supremacy linked to the Confederacy. It is racist. Flying it or identifying with it with the knowledge of what it represents is racist, regardless of your own beliefs on race. Your underlying reason for the usage of the flag, it does not matter. Ones intent does not erase reality, art does not exist in a vacuum, etc.

Now, for the point of the topic - the world is crazy. To me, the sudden realisation that there is much wrong with the world speaks for ones level of naivety and their place in society. Depending on what they are shocked about and how they go about expressing that shock, it can usually be used as a reliable indicator on their social status and including but not limited to, their age; race; gender and financial class. Be sure to understand that I'm not saying this is an absolute, but it's been rather reliable to me in the past.

DarkSkys July 24th, 2015 2:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8860399)
I have no interest in turning this thread into a 'race argument' as that isn't the point of the thread, but it's willful ignorance to claim that the Confederate Flag is not racist. It's a symbol of centuries of race-based oppression and how that oppression was sanctioned by a government and many of its citizens. Its very existence is to symbolise hate - it was created with the express purpose of having a visual image of white supremacy linked to the Confederacy. It is racist. Flying it or identifying with it with the knowledge of what it represents is racist, regardless of your own beliefs on race. Your underlying reason for the usage of the flag, it does not matter. Ones intent does not erase reality, art does not exist in a vacuum, etc.


That can be said about any flag. You have gangs running around using the Mexican flag, so would they be considered racist? See, I view this world completely different. The #1 thing killing the world is politics. You can put some dumbass in charge and he'd run the country better.

Her July 24th, 2015 2:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8860509)
That can be said about any flag. You have gangs running around using the Mexican flag, so would they be considered racist? See, I view this world completely different. The #1 thing killing the world is politics. You can put some dumbass in charge and he'd run the country better.

Mexican gang members associating with the flag of their birthplace/ancestral birthplace isn't racist... them relating to a gang is irrelevant. But you're sort of right when you say it's the same with any flag - by nature of them representing a country, many national flags have dark histories, particularly Western ones. However, other flags being Rather Shit in comparison doesn't cancel out the Confederate flag being Completely Shit.

DarkSkys July 24th, 2015 2:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8860531)
Mexican gang members associating with the flag of their birthplace/ancestral birthplace isn't racist... them relating to a gang is irrelevant. But you're sort of right when you say it's the same with any flag - by nature of them representing a country, many national flags have dark histories, particularly Western ones. However, other flags being Rather **** in comparison doesn't cancel out the Confederate flag being Completely ****.

Now now, I didn't say that. Your right all flags have a dark past. But, we still fly them. Does that mean we're accepting there past? If so then I see no problem with flying a "Rebel" flag.

Her July 24th, 2015 2:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8860534)
Now now, I didn't say that. Your right all flags have a dark past. But, we still fly them. Does that mean we're accepting there past? If so then I see no problem with flying a "Rebel" flag.

I think it's up to each person to decide what their flag means to them after learning the truth about it. The less pride in nationalism the better imo, but sometimes it really is not that serious.

Now, honey, what I don't understand is the pride in associating with this rebellion today - like... it's not like these 'rebels' are anyone worth celebrating, it's not like they rebelled against the Galactic Empire. They rebelled because they didn't want the North telling them to stop treating black people like inhumans. The North wasn't that much better in that regard as we all should know, but I digress - the secession is not something worth connecting ones identity to at all.

Sopheria July 24th, 2015 4:01 AM

It does seem like the world is a much scarier place to live in nowadays :c

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8860340)
We have ISIS, Cops attacking for no reason, sexual bashing & fights over a battle flag.

ISIS, recruiting American teens around the world to do what they want. Or use Muslims, in Tennessee 5 Marines killed. If there trying to bring that war to the homeland, I'm loaded and will shoot to protect what I believe and grew up on.

I feel like the best way to combat this is to do like you said, be willing to defend yourself. And in general American as a whole is going to need to have the courage to defend itself. I think there are plenty of people willing to do that, so I don't think an all out war will ever break out over here.

Quote:

Cops, been said on the news that they shot and killed a kid named Brown last year. They also had a 5 on 1 beat down in another state. I've never liked Cops, reason being is from thinks like this. How can I trust there going to protect me if they do this?
This isn't anything new, sadly :(

The problem is, there's never any consequences for the police when they do something wrong. In instances of police brutality, corruption, or malpractice, they never get anything more than a paid leave of absence until "the situation gets sorted out". And that's not even done punitively. It's just done for the police department to save face during all the publicity.

Quote:

Gay Marriage, I 'm bisexual and happy for this. Now before it was approved their was people that didn't like same sex couples, but once approved I've seen reports of Gays being physically attacked by Christians, which is something I believe no Christian nor anybody should do. Don't have to like the choices of others, and it doesn't affect you.
This is very sad, and I hate seeing it happen. The source of the problem seems obvious to me though...

As someone who supports same-sex marriage and falls under the LGBT spectrum, the fact that it was just declared into law by the Supreme Court instead of being voted on democratically has always sat wrong with me. I've always had very mixed feelings about this, because while something about it felt wrong, I couldn't articulate why. Now I realize: it's because we haven't actually convinced the majority of our nation/culture to accept/support same sex marriage. I'm not saying I'm not happy about same sex marriage going through, but it seems to me that the best way to do it would have been for each of the states to actually vote on it. Maybe that's just me :x But regardless of how I feel about it, it's a fact that when you put something into law that the majority don't support, sadly it leads to more resentment toward the group that pushed for it.

tl;dr we've just forced same sex marriage into law, but anti-gay bigotry is still as deeply rooted into our culture as it's always been.

Quote:

Battle Flag, better the Confederate flag, a symbol of the South. I fly this flag. Not as a hate flag but as a symbol of my heritage. Just because some nutjob kills some blacks doesn't mean this flag is racist. Its the person that uses it for that. is the one that's racist. I do not support the KKK. I watched a video earlier on this, the guy says we don't need a race war in America at this time, we have to many things now and starting a race war will just open us up for a terrorist attack.
There isn't technically anything stopping you from continuing to fly the flag. It's not like a law was passed prohibiting you from flying it. All that happened was, it was taken down from the capitol in South Carolina. Taking it down made total sense to me, if I'm being honest. The Civil War was a war over which faction would have sovereignty over the nation. So why is the side that was defeated flying their flag over our government buildings? It doesn't make sense.

Like you said, it's a symbol of history and heritage. Where do symbols of history and heritage belong? Museums. And that's exactly where they put it.

DarkSkys July 24th, 2015 4:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8860542)
I think it's up to each person to decide what their flag means to them after learning the truth about it. The less pride in nationalism the better imo, but sometimes it really is not that serious.

Now, honey, what I don't understand is the pride in associating with this rebellion today - like... it's not like these 'rebels' are anyone worth celebrating, it's not like they rebelled against the Galactic Empire. They rebelled because they didn't want the North telling them to stop treating black people like inhumans. The North wasn't that much better in that regard as we all should know, but I digress - the secession is not something worth connecting ones identity to at all.

Note: I said in the OP I don't support the KKK, which use the flag for hate. Yes, I know of the past, yet its apart of history and I choose to fly it. But, if I'm racist for flying it. Then what does that make my black friend that also flies the flag?

Her July 24th, 2015 4:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8860622)
Note: I said in the OP I don't support the KKK, which use the flag for hate. Yes, I know of the past, yet its apart of history and I choose to fly it. But, if I'm racist for flying it. Then what does that make my black friend that also flies the flag?

An unfortunate victim of assimilation into white supremacy.

Sydian July 24th, 2015 6:50 AM

Why would your black friend fly that flag? I'm sorry, I don't buy into that at all. And if they do, that's just...I can't even find the words to describe that. Anyway, I live in Alabama, so this flag thing is all over. I recently went to Mississippi on a trip to the casino and on the way back, I saw people waving Confederate flags on a bridge we passed under. My immediate thought, "I thought I lived in the United States, not the Confederate States." Why fly a flag for a country that no longer exists? I don't buy into the heritage thing, either. While I think it's fine to be proud of where your roots are, there are certain lines. For example, in Germany, someone whose family was in the Nazi party isn't flying that flag. Why? It's illegal and generally looked upon with anger, fear, or disgust, especially from those with Jewish ancestry. Yeah, what the Nazi party did holds more weight on the world itself, but what the Confederate States fought for and represent still holds weight in the US, namely for African Americans and this violence still occurs today, as exhibited by some of your other points.

Even without the racial connotations, we live in the United States. The north won the war. Hundreds of years ago. It's still flying a flag for a place that doesn't exist, no one technically lives in, and no one knows anyone from it. I, personally, see no interest in flying a flag for a place that's all that and then some, but I digress. I'm perfectly fine with the decision to remove them from courthouses and the like. I would be happier to see them illegal, allowing them only in museums, history books, and the like, but I'm dreaming too hard there being where I am, lol.

I don't really have any immediate thoughts on your others points aside from wishing the families of the victims peace (mainly this point and the flag because there's surprisingly not a thread for them). One of the marines lost was the son of one of our marching band family so the loss of him especially hits close to home. That being said, I'm not fond of how Fox (of course) treated the interview with his mother recently and used that time to chastise the White House instead of speak to this grieving and visibly crying mother over the air. Not the time to rain your anti-Washington vigilante, Fox, but I digress.

Kanzler July 24th, 2015 8:03 AM

I think the whole uproar about the "Confederate Battle Flag" is overblown. It has never been used by the Confederacy to represent the Confederacy (as a country).

This:



and this:



were the Confederate national flags, much like how the Stars and Stripes represents the USA as a country.

Now there are flags used during the Confederate era that come close to the flag that's at the source of the uproar, take this:



The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Funny story - the birth of this flag came from a proposal to introduce a second national flag (which was turned down). But heck, it looked so good that they had it made anyways and it became the battle flag of that army for which it is named. It was useful because the Confederate and Union national flags looked too similar on the battlefield. Notice how it is a square.

There's also the Confederate Navy Jack:



which is based on the aforementioned battle flag but has a lighter blue.

The modern representation of this flag is rectangular, and happened after the Confederacy. It became a symbol of the American South and was adopted by some racist groups over time. But it wasn't the "Confederate Flag", it was a battle flag flown by a military for the purposes of military identification, much like these flags that you've probably never even seen before (except for Japan and if you did recognize it but didn't know where it was from, shame on you!):



I feel that the flag has been a victim of its own good looks. Men who fought underneath that flag fell in love with it instantly, and even today it remains an enduring symbol even though it was never used to represent the Confederacy as a country. If the design wasn't as nice, I highly doubt it would be a source of controversy today. But it wasn't designed for the Confederacy nor was it used by the Confederacy (by certain armies yes, but nationally, no. and armies get flags in our world for some strange reason). It was appropriated by some racist groups and was popularized in the 1900's but I don't think it's fair that the flag should have a permanently stained legacy because of that. It wasn't designed as a racist symbol and its connection to racism was initially weak, it's just that over the years some racists took it to be their symbol.

Sir Codin July 24th, 2015 8:24 AM

I honestly didn't really give much of a shit about that flag until people started bitching about it recently.

To me, it was just something that was flown under by white trash and that's why I'm against banning people from waving it; because then I won't be able to see who's a moron in the southern U.S. and who isn't, especially women.

That flag is birth control as far as I'm concerned.

Esper July 24th, 2015 11:30 AM

Isn't there anything else that people from the South can find their heritage in besides this flag?

I kind of feel like this is one of those things where you have white people who don't really feel like they've got much in the way of culture. They see all these diverse groups of black, Latino, Asian people who have a much stronger connection to one another through their shared heritage and culture and they look at themselves and they try to find something for themselves. I saw a map once that showed the ancestry of the USA:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/02/article-2408591-1B95A350000005DC-125_964x720.jpg

And you can see that in the southern half of the South you have a lot of African American ancestry and then another group just called "American" in the northern South - as in, they don't have any real connection to any European group or any non-white group. All they have to turn to for identity is "Southern" since white America sort of likes to make fun of and exclude Southern people to a degree.

I was going somewhere with this but I lost my train of thought.

DarkSkys July 24th, 2015 1:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alli (Post 8860823)
Why would your black friend fly that flag? I'm sorry, I don't buy into that at all. And if they do, that's just...I can't even find the words to describe that. Anyway, I live in Alabama, so this flag thing is all over. I recently went to Mississippi on a trip to the casino and on the way back, I saw people waving Confederate flags on a bridge we passed under. My immediate thought, "I thought I lived in the United States, not the Confederate States." Why fly a flag for a country that no longer exists? I don't buy into the heritage thing, either. While I think it's fine to be proud of where your roots are, there are certain lines. For example, in Germany, someone whose family was in the Nazi party isn't flying that flag. Why? It's illegal and generally looked upon with anger, fear, or disgust, especially from those with Jewish ancestry. Yeah, what the Nazi party did holds more weight on the world itself, but what the Confederate States fought for and represent still holds weight in the US, namely for African Americans and this violence still occurs today, as exhibited by some of your other points.

Even without the racial connotations, we live in the United States. The north won the war. Hundreds of years ago. It's still flying a flag for a place that doesn't exist, no one technically lives in, and no one knows anyone from it. I, personally, see no interest in flying a flag for a place that's all that and then some, but I digress. I'm perfectly fine with the decision to remove them from courthouses and the like. I would be happier to see them illegal, allowing them only in museums, history books, and the like, but I'm dreaming too hard there being where I am, lol.

I don't really have any immediate thoughts on your others points aside from wishing the families of the victims peace (mainly this point and the flag because there's surprisingly not a thread for them). One of the marines lost was the son of one of our marching band family so the loss of him especially hits close to home. That being said, I'm not fond of how Fox (of course) treated the interview with his mother recently and used that time to chastise the White House instead of speak to this grieving and visibly crying mother over the air. Not the time to rain your anti-Washington vigilante, Fox, but I digress.

You live in Alabama, so you heard the news about changing the State Troopers cars & uniforms. See I grew up being told it represents the south. Later on I found out about the past, the thing is. If you live in the past you have no future. Go talk to the idiot sitting in jail now. I had family that served in the war, and other wars through out the generations.

Her July 24th, 2015 2:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanzler (Post 8860898)
I feel that the flag has been a victim of its own good looks. Men who fought underneath that flag fell in love with it instantly, and even today it remains an enduring symbol even though it was never used to represent the Confederacy as a country. If the design wasn't as nice, I highly doubt it would be a source of controversy today. But it wasn't designed for the Confederacy nor was it used by the Confederacy (by certain armies yes, but nationally, no. and armies get flags in our world for some strange reason). It was appropriated by some racist groups and was popularized in the 1900's but I don't think it's fair that the flag should have a permanently stained legacy because of that. It wasn't designed as a racist symbol and its connection to racism was initially weak, it's just that over the years some racists took it to be their symbol.

Dunno why there's such endless attempts to get around the plain point of the various designed flags.

Kanzler July 24th, 2015 2:07 PM

The presence of other symbols from which one can find their heritage does not, as a principle, de-legitimize any one of those symbols. Even if it's true that white people don't have much in the way of culture, that doesn't in itself mean anything for the symbols they choose to represent themselves with.

Also, I think ancestry in this context means "where did you come from". My guess is that much of the South has an "American" majority ancestry because most European immigrants settled elsewhere (Westward for the Germans who settled mainly in the 19th century, in the Northeast for Italians, Irish who settled in large numbers around the same time). Actually I think most "recent" European immigration to the US occurred in the 19th century, and it appears that not many settled in the South.

@God just because the person who designed the flag was a racist doesn't mean that the flag is necessarily racist. Also the whole superiority of the white race flag is the Confederate national flag with the bloodstained banner, which isn't the controversial one lately. I mean, some of the founding fathers were slave-holders and drafted the Constitution, so does that mean the Constitution consequently promotes slavery or pro-slavery ideology? I don't believe that's a sound connection to make.

DarkSkys July 24th, 2015 2:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanzler (Post 8861296)
@God just because the person who designed the flag was a racist doesn't mean that the flag is necessarily racist.

Like the whole gun control thing lol Guns don't kill people. People kill people, like the flag isn't racist. Its the person that uses it that way.

Her July 24th, 2015 2:17 PM

On another note - since the thread is about the world falling apart (or rather, the realisation that it has been for quite some time), how many of you have hope for the future? It's all well and good to dwell on the history of the issues in the OP as most people aren't aware of the intricacies of the problems let alone having a proper opinion on them, but do you see things getting better within a reasonable timeframe?

@Kanzler - it was designed with white supremacy in mind ergo racist idk why that's so hard to grapple

Kanzler July 24th, 2015 2:27 PM

@God I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here: "designed with white supremacy in mind ergo racism". Sure it was designed with racist intentions - I don't doubt the historical accuracy of Miles' reputation. The thing is though, it was primarily used as a battle flag by the men who fought under it. Now we see it appropriated as a symbol for Southern pride. Does that necessarily include racism? I don't think that's what most people who take pride in the flag believe. I don't doubt that there are racists in the South, but I do doubt that they put up the flag thinking "that represents me, and that represents racism". That's the case I'm trying to make here.

Esper July 24th, 2015 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8861312)
On another note - since the thread is about the world falling apart (or rather, the realisation that it has been for quite some time), how many of you have hope for the future?

I have hope, though sometimes I wonder why. I think people will survive into the far future, the environment will mostly be okay, though changed from what it is now. Enough people will adapt to the changes in climate and lifestyle that I don't think the fate of humanity will be at risk. But I think a lot of people are going to suffer and die on this long, bumpy road. I mean, there are so many people suffering right now. Those of us in developed countries don't really see it that much, or at least not the worst of it, but it'll probably start to affect us within our lifetimes and we'll just have to do the best we can to roll with the changes.

R2J July 24th, 2015 9:33 PM

Alright, the flag has a dark past. But like most things, change over time. Some, like me grew up knowing the history and hearing of it being a symbol of the South. As for racism, how on earth can a flag be racist? It can't walk nor talk. As for the person holding the flag, they may be racist. But, that doesn't make the flag or any other flag owners racist. You can fly a flag I dislike, the only problem is it won't effect my life. Why should it? Its a flag, nothing more, nothing less. But your right God, the world is falling to pieces because of shit like this, live your life and let it fall.

Livewire July 25th, 2015 3:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8860340)
Battle Flag, better the Confederate flag, a symbol of the South. I fly this flag. Not as a hate flag but as a symbol of my heritage. Just because some nutjob kills some blacks doesn't mean this flag is racist. Its the person that uses it for that. is the one that's racist. I do not support the KKK. I watched a video earlier on this, the guy says we don't need a race war in America at this time, we have to many things now and starting a race war will just open us up for a terrorist attack.

So your heritage is armed treason against the United States of America, then? The Battle Flag of the Army of Virginia is a symbol of treason, treason committed because the rebels wanted to preserve their "heritage", which was slavery, from "yankee aggression". That is what it symbolizes as it was originally intended to, and just because you choose not to fly it as a hate flag, doesn't mean that it isn't one. It is.

DarkSkys July 25th, 2015 4:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer (Post 8862934)
So your heritage is armed treason against the United States of America, then? The Battle Flag of the Army of Virginia is a symbol of treason, treason committed because the rebels wanted to preserve their "heritage", which was slavery, from "yankee aggression". That is what it symbolizes as it was originally intended to, and just because you choose not to fly it as a hate flag, doesn't mean that it isn't one. It is.

Like I said, I know the past. But, is there slavery in todays time? No, the flag was a symbol of the south in the war between the south and the north. Why is it that only now anybody trying to do anything about it? Its apart of American history, might as well get use to it. Cause regardless its going to be around.

Her July 25th, 2015 4:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8862945)
Like I said, I know the past. But, is there slavery in todays time? No, the flag was a symbol of the south in the war between the south and the north. Why is it that only now anybody trying to do anything about it? Its apart of American history, might as well get use to it. Cause regardless its going to be around.

People have been condemning the flag for generations now - many have spent decades trying to 'do something about it'. However, the reason why it's garnered mass judgement from the masses once more instead of a grumbling dissatisfaction is because it is a reminder of racial intolerance during a time of rising racial tension.

Livewire July 25th, 2015 4:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8862945)
Like I said, I know the past. But, is there slavery in todays time? No, the flag was a symbol of the south in the war between the south and the north. Why is it that only now anybody trying to do anything about it? Its apart of American history, might as well get use to it. Cause regardless its going to be around.

"Slavery no longer being practiced" doesn't change anything? The Nazi party is no longer running Germany, but the Swastiza in that iteration is still a symbol of fascism. And there's a thing called cultural awareness, where as time goes on people begin to realize more and more that things they took as just a fact of life aren't in fact, ok. It took 80+ years and the Civil War to end slavery. 100 more years to get equal rights and protection under the law, because cultural attitudes towards it gradually changed, and people fought to change it. The "stars and bars" is a relic of a dark period in America's racial past and it belongs in the past.

Bellsprout July 25th, 2015 4:35 PM

here's my thing when people say "the world is going to shit" and things along that line... when was the world ever okay? since mankind has walked the earth there has been oppression, rape, violence, racism, war, injustice, etc.

DarkSkys July 26th, 2015 1:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8862953)
People have been condemning the flag for generations now - many have spent decades trying to 'do something about it'. However, the reason why it's garnered mass judgement from the masses once more instead of a grumbling dissatisfaction is because it is a reminder of racial intolerance during a time of rising racial tension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer (Post 8862971)
"Slavery no longer being practiced" doesn't change anything? The Nazi party is no longer running Germany, but the Swastiza in that iteration is still a symbol of fascism. And there's a thing called cultural awareness, where as time goes on people begin to realize more and more that things they took as just a fact of life aren't in fact, ok. It took 80+ years and the Civil War to end slavery. 100 more years to get equal rights and protection under the law, because cultural attitudes towards it gradually changed, and people fought to change it. The "stars and bars" is a relic of a dark period in America's racial past and it belongs in the past.

Maybe its just me, but there's no way in hell I could an immovable object be considered racist. The people that use it for that purpose are complete idiots. now if we're going to ban the Confederate flag for being a war flag from the past, then why not ban the American flag? Its also a battle flag. Regardless, if anyone likes it or not people will still fly it.

R2J July 26th, 2015 1:21 AM

This still going?


Anyways, anybody know the main reason for that war? Wasn't just about slavery, it was mostly about the South paying taxes to the North. Even then politics were crap. Well I asked the question earlier, how does the flag effect your life, no answer, so I assume nobody's effected by it. So I ask this, why make a big deal about? I've heard that the past needs to stay buried, yet everybody keeps digging it up. And its true, no matter what anybody says, that flag will remain flying.

Sopheria July 26th, 2015 4:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8863364)
Maybe its just me, but there's no way in hell I could an immovable object be considered racist. The people that use it for that purpose are complete idiots. now if we're going to ban the Confederate flag for being a war flag from the past, then why not ban the American flag? Its also a battle flag. Regardless, if anyone likes it or not people will still fly it.

Similar to what I said in my first post, I feel compelled to ask again, what exactly is the problem then? Flying it isn't outlawed, so there isn't anything actually stopping you from flying it. And you just said "Regardless, if anyone likes it or not people will still fly it", so what are you even complaining about? o: (maybe complaining is too strong a word, but it gets my point across)

Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?)

Sydian July 26th, 2015 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sopheria (Post 8863532)
Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?)

The issue is that people that do fly this flag for "heritage" and the like are angry that the flag is receiving this treatment as of late. So even though that's really the only official action that's been taken, as far as I'm aware of anyway, people think that this is going to go further (and it is) and call for removal of their flag that they fly with such pride. And I guess if you don't live in a southern state, you don't really get all of that (be thankful), but it's literally everywhere here.

I also failed to mention that the same day I was making my way home from Mississippi back into the not that much better Alabama, I passed another Confederate flag rally (a tacky one on the side of a busy street) and there was news about someone, my ex-step dad actually, getting told to remove his flag by an African-American Congressman. Him being him, he's not going to and decided that he's going to host Confederate flag rallies at his barber shop. lol So yeah, if you don't live in these areas, you're really lucky. It's literally all I see when I sign on Facebook and I think the sudden outcry against the flag has caused even more to be seen.

R2J July 26th, 2015 9:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sopheria (Post 8863532)
Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?)

Nascar has a ban on the flag, any fan that has it on there trucks can not come on Nascar land. Then you have stores not selling the classic 1969 Dodge Chargers that comes from the 1970s show the "Dukes of Hazards". Due to the top of the General Lee is a rebel flag. And there's also networks that ran the re-runs of the show pulling the show.

Ivysaur July 27th, 2015 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2J (Post 8863370)
This still going?

Anyways, anybody know the main reason for that war? Wasn't just about slavery, it was mostly about the South paying taxes to the North. Even then politics were crap. Well I asked the question earlier, how does the flag effect your life, no answer, so I assume nobody's effected by it. So I ask this, why make a big deal about? I've heard that the past needs to stay buried, yet everybody keeps digging it up. And its true, no matter what anybody says, that flag will remain flying.

Yeah, it wasn't just about slavery. Slavery was just a mere 98% of the causes of the war- the only argument brought up by each and every seceding State when leaving and even the only cause some States mentioned at all: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery Please, look at Mississippi:

Quote:

Sentence two begins, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery."
Meanwhile, Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the CSA said such beautiful things like

Quote:

Our new government is founded upon . . . its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and normal condition.
Similarily, the biggest differences between the US and the CS Constitutions are all about slavery: http://www.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

Obviously, a flag that represents the defence of slavery (and remember, what matters is not how you see it, but how the flag is seen outside) is going to cause constant harm to descendants of those enslaved, which is made worse by the fact that they were legally second-class citizens until 60 years ago and they continue to be discriminated against until today. The past needs to be buried, but it's hard to leave it buried when a piece of the past (the flag) is not buried but flying in everybody's faces. Can you imagine how well the EU would be doing if there still were Nazi flags flying all over Germany, and the German leaders told the citizens of the countries that were invaded by then to "bury the past" and not be offended by them when they went to, say, Frankfurt to discuss something in the European Central Bank HQ?

How can that flag offend anybody? By reminding black Americans that their neighbours support a regime that would have had them enslaved, which is certainly the best way to foster friendship and cooperation between a population.

R2J July 27th, 2015 4:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivysaur (Post 8864667)
Yeah, it wasn't just about slavery. Slavery was just a mere 98% of the causes of the war- the only argument brought up by each and every seceding State when leaving and even the only cause some States mentioned at all: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery Please, look at Mississippi:



Meanwhile, Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the CSA said such beautiful things like



Similarily, the biggest differences between the US and the CS Constitutions are all about slavery: http://www.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

Obviously, a flag that represents the defence of slavery (and remember, what matters is not how you see it, but how the flag is seen outside) is going to cause constant harm to descendants of those enslaved, which is made worse by the fact that they were legally second-class citizens until 60 years ago and they continue to be discriminated against until today. The past needs to be buried, but it's hard to leave it buried when a piece of the past (the flag) is not buried but flying in everybody's faces. Can you imagine how well the EU would be doing if there still were Nazi flags flying all over Germany, and the German leaders told the citizens of the countries that were invaded by then to "bury the past" and not be offended by them when they went to, say, Frankfurt to discuss something in the European Central Bank HQ?

How can that flag offend anybody? By reminding black Americans that their neighbours support a regime that would have had them enslaved, which is certainly the best way to foster friendship and cooperation between a population.

But now trying to make a race war of home turf? That would mean history repeats itself. As for my personal thought on what's fucked up in this world, its politics. The flag is gonna no matter what people say, at least this generation, next generation who knows.

Ivysaur July 27th, 2015 5:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2J (Post 8864831)
But now trying to make a race war of home turf? That would mean history repeats itself. As for my personal thought on what's fucked up in this world, its politics. The flag is gonna no matter what people say, at least this generation, next generation who knows.

'Course, you could argue that the "race war" has never ended in the South (and in most of the US as a whole), where black people are more likely to be poor, uneducated, unemployed, incarcerated or killed violently; laws make voting harder for them and the mainstream opinion is that blacks "are okay" but "shouldn't be trusted as much as a white person". Obviously, it wasn't as much of a war as long as blacks were openly and freely discriminated against and any attempts to argue against it were crushed. The problem is that discrimination is not openly accepted as the "right thing" anymore, which forces people in favour of it to defend an oppression that had been considered "the normal" until then, which, obviously, takes far more effort and is more likely to fail. When blacks weren't allowed into pools because "that's how things work here", nobody had to break a sweat to defend the status quo. Now that such a thing is frowned upon, anybody who still thinks blacks should stay away from whites has to openly argue for a clearly racist measure- that is "the war", nothing more, nothing less.

Politics is just the way humans have to discuss our opinions, make rules and try to find solutions to our problems and disagreements. Politics is deciding whether you need to build a school or give a tax break to a company or invest in weapons or in investigation or in filling potholes in the road. That's politics. Everything is politics.

R2J July 27th, 2015 8:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivysaur (Post 8864871)
'Course, you could argue that the "race war" has never ended in the South (and in most of the US as a whole), where black people are more likely to be poor, uneducated, unemployed, incarcerated or killed violently; laws make voting harder for them and the mainstream opinion is that blacks "are okay" but "shouldn't be trusted as much as a white person". Obviously, it wasn't as much of a war as long as blacks were openly and freely discriminated against and any attempts to argue against it were crushed. The problem is that discrimination is not openly accepted as the "right thing" anymore, which forces people in favour of it to defend an oppression that had been considered "the normal" until then, which, obviously, takes far more effort and is more likely to fail. When blacks weren't allowed into pools because "that's how things work here", nobody had to break a sweat to defend the status quo. Now that such a thing is frowned upon, anybody who still thinks blacks should stay away from whites has to openly argue for a clearly racist measure- that is "the war", nothing more, nothing less.

This is just people living in the past, the war was long ago just move on. Honestly I don't care what people think of me, I'm here for one purpose. That's to live my life, you act as though I fly the flag. Never said I flew it. I live around, grew up around it. But, I don't care who flies it, who believes in the past. Such as the Ku Klux Klan, every last member can kiss my ass. Same goes for the other "racist" clan Black Panthers. Those two groups can go at it all they want, I'll sit at home and live my life. If your not getting it, I don't care if you white, black, pink, yellow or green. We're all brothers and sisters in the eyes of the lord. As for what I'm saying on this topic, no matter what anyone says or does that flag will remain flying. That flag has a strong bond with people in the South. So there are many that will fly it anyways. Its the teaching in the house growing up now, they don't learn the history till High School so they believe what they we're raised on and pass it to the next generation.

Pinkie-Dawn July 27th, 2015 8:19 AM

This whole argument about the Confederate Flag reminds me of this one episode of South Park, where the kids who opposed of changing their town flag was because violence was a natural thing. They never viewed the flag as racist, which should be a key point in debates like this. Kids wouldn't even care about its original intention and use an entirely different perspective of it.


As for what's going on with the world, it's same as it always was, only more visible for everyone to see via social media and television, and it's taking them this long to try "fix" it.

Sydian July 27th, 2015 10:45 AM

The flag does have a strong bond in the south, both good (though I use this term loosely) and bad. Good for those that call it heritage and have ancestors that served in the war, a sense of pride. Bad for those that were oppressed by it then and still are today. I think the negative outweighs the positive by a longshot and I'd rather not see it flown. And even without the racial connotations, I still don't see why people want to fly a flag for a country of states that seceded from the nation they're currently living in.

Kanzler July 27th, 2015 10:58 AM

I think we all need to recognize that symbols can be appropriated and re-appropriated, and saying that a symbol must mean X is doing a disservice to those who have taken the symbol to mean something else for a long time.

I really don't think that "Southern Pride" is a euphemism for continued racial hate or a movement to bring back or support a Confederate regime. I don't know, but I believe that those in the South are as proud for being Americans and living in the US of A as any other American. I feel that there's so much unquestioned attribution of slavery to that flag in this thread that I really have to wonder: what do those who fly that flag believe?

I think it's unreasonable to assume that a symbol can only have one meaning. We talk about how the flag represents an ideology and a regime of racial superiority as if that's the only way to view the flag. But it's clearly not, and that's the reason why people are outraged at the prospect that the flag is becoming increasingly politically incorrect. I would imagine that someone who truly is proud of their Southern culture and heritage and acknowledges and dissociates themselves from the faults of the past would feel threatened if more and more people start believing that just because they fly that flag, they are racists, they hate blacks, and whatever other connotations we seem to be imposing.

And for the sake of subverting Godwin's law for the rest of the thread, I don't believe that the Dixie flag is comparable to the Nazi swastika, which has been used by no one but hate and racial superiority ideologues.

Is there anyone who truly believes that those who fly the Dixie flag strictly as a symbol of their pride in their Southern culture are in the minority and that the majority of people who use that symbol would like to see the progress made in race relations and equality in the past several decades overturned?

Her July 27th, 2015 12:41 PM

i want to see these blue and green people that are brought up whenever someone says that we're all just human beings or the like

Nah July 27th, 2015 1:32 PM

We should probably rename this thread to "The Confederate Flag" at this point lol

I do agree with Kanzler that a symbol doesn't always have to represent one specific thing, but by that same token people can view the symbol in another way and legitimately take issue with it. Yes, to some people the Confederate flag is a symbol of "Southern pride/heritage" and they might not be racist, but to others it's the symbol of a nation that wished for the continued enslavement of an entire race of people. And I would think that maaaaaybe in that case you'd wanna find another symbol for your Southern PrideTM instead of a symbol that legitimately means something incredibly negative to a not insignificant number of people.

I never did understand though why people take pride in their heritage or lineage though.....

Kanzler July 27th, 2015 2:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nah (Post 8865478)
I never did understand though why people take pride in their heritage or lineage though.....

This could be a thread in and of itself.

My short answer would be that most (many) people like to feel like they are a part of something greater. For some it's family. For others it's the community. For others, it's nation. I think most people enjoy being accepted in some sort of tribe, whether it be big or small and for many people that kind of need for community identity can be fulfilled by their regional/national/historical affiliation in addition to others that are probably more universal (but obviously not absolutely universal, I'm sure we all know people who don't identify at all with their family and instead find some other community or subculture to latch on to).

R2J July 27th, 2015 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanzler (Post 8865307)
I think we all need to recognize that symbols can be appropriated and re-appropriated, and saying that a symbol must mean X is doing a disservice to those who have taken the symbol to mean something else for a long time.

I really don't think that "Southern Pride" is a euphemism for continued racial hate or a movement to bring back or support a Confederate regime. I don't know, but I believe that those in the South are as proud for being Americans and living in the US of A as any other American. I feel that there's so much unquestioned attribution of slavery to that flag in this thread that I really have to wonder: what do those who fly that flag believe?

I think it's unreasonable to assume that a symbol can only have one meaning. We talk about how the flag represents an ideology and a regime of racial superiority as if that's the only way to view the flag. But it's clearly not, and that's the reason why people are outraged at the prospect that the flag is becoming increasingly politically incorrect. I would imagine that someone who truly is proud of their Southern culture and heritage and acknowledges and dissociates themselves from the faults of the past would feel threatened if more and more people start believing that just because they fly that flag, they are racists, they hate blacks, and whatever other connotations we seem to be imposing.

And for the sake of subverting Godwin's law for the rest of the thread, I don't believe that the Dixie flag is comparable to the Nazi swastika, which has been used by no one but hate and racial superiority ideologues.

Is there anyone who truly believes that those who fly the Dixie flag strictly as a symbol of their pride in their Southern culture are in the minority and that the majority of people who use that symbol would like to see the progress made in race relations and equality in the past several decades overturned?

My father flew the flag, always saying its a sign that's he's from the south. Of course this was on a truck like you see some doing today. I remember having people rip it off the truck, throw it on the ground, even beat on his truck if we had it parked somewhere. My dad would tell me, you can fly it. Just never use it as hate. Let the ones that live in the past do as they please, but if they physically touch you or your family for flying the flag then be a man and protect your family. I had some friends in High School that was indeed racist, which the friendship didn't last long due to me growing up with a black friend that lived next door. When it comes to the flag, its flown by personal beliefs & passing down from Generation to Generation.
Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8865423)
i want to see these blue and green people that are brought up whenever someone says that we're all just human beings or the like

There is actually a women that lives around Huntsville, AL. When I was working at a Wal-Mart, she would come in once a week. Her skin was green, later I found out that's its a skin condition. As for pink, saying that it doesn't matter what color you are.

Ivysaur July 28th, 2015 6:51 AM

There is a problem though, which is interfering with this whole topic, and that is that symbols can have very different meanings, and have them symultaneously. For a Southern white, the Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage and Southern pride. For a black, it's a symbol of hatred and slavery. For a northerner, it's a symbol of rebellion against their own country. And nobody can just walk in and say "now the flag only means 'rebellion against the US'", because then the other two groups will say "Yeah, because YOU say so, right? The flag has always stood for slavery/heritage and always will". As a result, when people argue about the meaning of the flag, they can't understand each other. Some people can't understand why a symbol of Southern pride can be hated so much, while others can't understand why a symbol of their ancestors' suffering or of a war against their own country can be loved by anybody at all.

The flag is extremely divisive, and the problem is that its meanings are so different that the sides cannot even agree to hide it, because one of them can't see anything bad with their interpretation of its meaning. That's why a debate needs to be held- and, to be honest, if the Southerners could find any other symbol -anything at all- to celebrate their heritage that doesn't read like an insult to millions of people, things would be much better.

Keiran July 28th, 2015 9:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2J (Post 8865907)
My father flew the flag, always saying its a sign that's he's from the south. Of course this was on a truck like you see some doing today. I remember having people rip it off the truck, throw it on the ground, even beat on his truck if we had it parked somewhere. My dad would tell me, you can fly it. Just never use it as hate. Let the ones that live in the past do as they please, but if they physically touch you or your family for flying the flag then be a man and protect your family.

That thinking is a bit backwards because technically, having pride in your "heritage" is living in the past. Whereas recognizing a flag as being representative of a racist regime is not because people still use it. Racism is not a thing of the past, either, for we are inundated by it as we speak. Slavery itself is still a huge problem today.

Kanzler July 28th, 2015 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran (Post 8866617)
That thinking is a bit backwards because technically, having pride in your "heritage" is living in the past. Whereas recognizing a flag as being representative of a racist regime is not because people still use it. Racism is not a thing of the past, either, for we are inundated by it as we speak. Slavery itself is still a huge problem today.

I think it's doing a great disservice to the idea of heritage by not just equating it to but calling it living in the past. Heritage may be inherited from the past, but it matters because it lives in the present as well. People are proud of their heritage because they're proud of their culture and their way of life and it doesn't matter how old their culture is.

Slavery is indeed a horrific problem, but it's not as huge in the same way as it was in the past. Slavery as a legal system where the treatment of people as property is officially sanctioned by the state no longer exists in any country. Of course human trafficking, indebted bondage and other kinds of forced labour are problems that haven't gone away and are increasingly underground. It's a much more different problem than the one faced by the antebellum Southern US slave society and has a lot more to do with law enforcement.

R2J July 29th, 2015 2:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran (Post 8866617)
That thinking is a bit backwards because technically, having pride in your "heritage" is living in the past. Whereas recognizing a flag as being representative of a racist regime is not because people still use it. Racism is not a thing of the past, either, for we are inundated by it as we speak. Slavery itself is still a huge problem today.

See growing up with that, I learned the world is full of opinions and nobody's going to have the excite same one. Beliefs are different, that's fine. But physically attacks, aren't. People taking things to far is nuts, the guy that shot up that church should be locked up. Such as the black that shot at a guys family home in Alabama while he & his family was home.


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