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Whats going on with the world?
We have ISIS, Cops attacking for no reason, sexual bashing & fights over a battle flag.
ISIS, recruiting American teens around the world to do what they want. Or use Muslims, in Tennessee 5 Marines killed. If there trying to bring that war to the homeland, I'm loaded and will shoot to protect what I believe and grew up on. Cops, been said on the news that they shot and killed a kid named Brown last year. They also had a 5 on 1 beat down in another state. I've never liked Cops, reason being is from thinks like this. How can I trust there going to protect me if they do this? Gay Marriage, I 'm bisexual and happy for this. Now before it was approved their was people that didn't like same sex couples, but once approved I've seen reports of Gays being physically attacked by Christians, which is something I believe no Christian nor anybody should do. Don't have to like the choices of others, and it doesn't affect you. Battle Flag, better the Confederate flag, a symbol of the South. I fly this flag. Not as a hate flag but as a symbol of my heritage. Just because some nutjob kills some blacks doesn't mean this flag is racist. Its the person that uses it for that. is the one that's racist. I do not support the KKK. I watched a video earlier on this, the guy says we don't need a race war in America at this time, we have to many things now and starting a race war will just open us up for a terrorist attack. |
The world will always look pretty shitty if you choose to look at it through that lens.
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While I'll get to the 'the world's falling apart around me!' point of the topic soon, I can't help but make my views known over the examples listed in the OP. Whether or not anyone wishes to respond is up to them.
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I'm jumping ahead a bit here, but given your predilection to flying the Confederate flag as noted a couple of paragraphs later, I'm highly dubious that you will ever face the violent oppression of the police. Quote:
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Now, for the point of the topic - the world is crazy. To me, the sudden realisation that there is much wrong with the world speaks for ones level of naivety and their place in society. Depending on what they are shocked about and how they go about expressing that shock, it can usually be used as a reliable indicator on their social status and including but not limited to, their age; race; gender and financial class. Be sure to understand that I'm not saying this is an absolute, but it's been rather reliable to me in the past. |
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That can be said about any flag. You have gangs running around using the Mexican flag, so would they be considered racist? See, I view this world completely different. The #1 thing killing the world is politics. You can put some dumbass in charge and he'd run the country better. |
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Now, honey, what I don't understand is the pride in associating with this rebellion today - like... it's not like these 'rebels' are anyone worth celebrating, it's not like they rebelled against the Galactic Empire. They rebelled because they didn't want the North telling them to stop treating black people like inhumans. The North wasn't that much better in that regard as we all should know, but I digress - the secession is not something worth connecting ones identity to at all. |
It does seem like the world is a much scarier place to live in nowadays :c
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The problem is, there's never any consequences for the police when they do something wrong. In instances of police brutality, corruption, or malpractice, they never get anything more than a paid leave of absence until "the situation gets sorted out". And that's not even done punitively. It's just done for the police department to save face during all the publicity. Quote:
As someone who supports same-sex marriage and falls under the LGBT spectrum, the fact that it was just declared into law by the Supreme Court instead of being voted on democratically has always sat wrong with me. I've always had very mixed feelings about this, because while something about it felt wrong, I couldn't articulate why. Now I realize: it's because we haven't actually convinced the majority of our nation/culture to accept/support same sex marriage. I'm not saying I'm not happy about same sex marriage going through, but it seems to me that the best way to do it would have been for each of the states to actually vote on it. Maybe that's just me :x But regardless of how I feel about it, it's a fact that when you put something into law that the majority don't support, sadly it leads to more resentment toward the group that pushed for it. tl;dr we've just forced same sex marriage into law, but anti-gay bigotry is still as deeply rooted into our culture as it's always been. Quote:
Like you said, it's a symbol of history and heritage. Where do symbols of history and heritage belong? Museums. And that's exactly where they put it. |
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Why would your black friend fly that flag? I'm sorry, I don't buy into that at all. And if they do, that's just...I can't even find the words to describe that. Anyway, I live in Alabama, so this flag thing is all over. I recently went to Mississippi on a trip to the casino and on the way back, I saw people waving Confederate flags on a bridge we passed under. My immediate thought, "I thought I lived in the United States, not the Confederate States." Why fly a flag for a country that no longer exists? I don't buy into the heritage thing, either. While I think it's fine to be proud of where your roots are, there are certain lines. For example, in Germany, someone whose family was in the Nazi party isn't flying that flag. Why? It's illegal and generally looked upon with anger, fear, or disgust, especially from those with Jewish ancestry. Yeah, what the Nazi party did holds more weight on the world itself, but what the Confederate States fought for and represent still holds weight in the US, namely for African Americans and this violence still occurs today, as exhibited by some of your other points.
Even without the racial connotations, we live in the United States. The north won the war. Hundreds of years ago. It's still flying a flag for a place that doesn't exist, no one technically lives in, and no one knows anyone from it. I, personally, see no interest in flying a flag for a place that's all that and then some, but I digress. I'm perfectly fine with the decision to remove them from courthouses and the like. I would be happier to see them illegal, allowing them only in museums, history books, and the like, but I'm dreaming too hard there being where I am, lol. I don't really have any immediate thoughts on your others points aside from wishing the families of the victims peace (mainly this point and the flag because there's surprisingly not a thread for them). One of the marines lost was the son of one of our marching band family so the loss of him especially hits close to home. That being said, I'm not fond of how Fox (of course) treated the interview with his mother recently and used that time to chastise the White House instead of speak to this grieving and visibly crying mother over the air. Not the time to rain your anti-Washington vigilante, Fox, but I digress. |
I think the whole uproar about the "Confederate Battle Flag" is overblown. It has never been used by the Confederacy to represent the Confederacy (as a country).
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and this: Spoiler:
were the Confederate national flags, much like how the Stars and Stripes represents the USA as a country. Now there are flags used during the Confederate era that come close to the flag that's at the source of the uproar, take this: Spoiler:
The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Funny story - the birth of this flag came from a proposal to introduce a second national flag (which was turned down). But heck, it looked so good that they had it made anyways and it became the battle flag of that army for which it is named. It was useful because the Confederate and Union national flags looked too similar on the battlefield. Notice how it is a square. There's also the Confederate Navy Jack: Spoiler:
which is based on the aforementioned battle flag but has a lighter blue. The modern representation of this flag is rectangular, and happened after the Confederacy. It became a symbol of the American South and was adopted by some racist groups over time. But it wasn't the "Confederate Flag", it was a battle flag flown by a military for the purposes of military identification, much like these flags that you've probably never even seen before (except for Japan and if you did recognize it but didn't know where it was from, shame on you!): Spoiler:
I feel that the flag has been a victim of its own good looks. Men who fought underneath that flag fell in love with it instantly, and even today it remains an enduring symbol even though it was never used to represent the Confederacy as a country. If the design wasn't as nice, I highly doubt it would be a source of controversy today. But it wasn't designed for the Confederacy nor was it used by the Confederacy (by certain armies yes, but nationally, no. and armies get flags in our world for some strange reason). It was appropriated by some racist groups and was popularized in the 1900's but I don't think it's fair that the flag should have a permanently stained legacy because of that. It wasn't designed as a racist symbol and its connection to racism was initially weak, it's just that over the years some racists took it to be their symbol. |
I honestly didn't really give much of a shit about that flag until people started bitching about it recently.
To me, it was just something that was flown under by white trash and that's why I'm against banning people from waving it; because then I won't be able to see who's a moron in the southern U.S. and who isn't, especially women. That flag is birth control as far as I'm concerned. |
Isn't there anything else that people from the South can find their heritage in besides this flag?
I kind of feel like this is one of those things where you have white people who don't really feel like they've got much in the way of culture. They see all these diverse groups of black, Latino, Asian people who have a much stronger connection to one another through their shared heritage and culture and they look at themselves and they try to find something for themselves. I saw a map once that showed the ancestry of the USA: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/02/article-2408591-1B95A350000005DC-125_964x720.jpg And you can see that in the southern half of the South you have a lot of African American ancestry and then another group just called "American" in the northern South - as in, they don't have any real connection to any European group or any non-white group. All they have to turn to for identity is "Southern" since white America sort of likes to make fun of and exclude Southern people to a degree. I was going somewhere with this but I lost my train of thought. |
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The presence of other symbols from which one can find their heritage does not, as a principle, de-legitimize any one of those symbols. Even if it's true that white people don't have much in the way of culture, that doesn't in itself mean anything for the symbols they choose to represent themselves with.
Also, I think ancestry in this context means "where did you come from". My guess is that much of the South has an "American" majority ancestry because most European immigrants settled elsewhere (Westward for the Germans who settled mainly in the 19th century, in the Northeast for Italians, Irish who settled in large numbers around the same time). Actually I think most "recent" European immigration to the US occurred in the 19th century, and it appears that not many settled in the South. @God just because the person who designed the flag was a racist doesn't mean that the flag is necessarily racist. Also the whole superiority of the white race flag is the Confederate national flag with the bloodstained banner, which isn't the controversial one lately. I mean, some of the founding fathers were slave-holders and drafted the Constitution, so does that mean the Constitution consequently promotes slavery or pro-slavery ideology? I don't believe that's a sound connection to make. |
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On another note - since the thread is about the world falling apart (or rather, the realisation that it has been for quite some time), how many of you have hope for the future? It's all well and good to dwell on the history of the issues in the OP as most people aren't aware of the intricacies of the problems let alone having a proper opinion on them, but do you see things getting better within a reasonable timeframe?
@Kanzler - it was designed with white supremacy in mind ergo racist idk why that's so hard to grapple |
@God I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here: "designed with white supremacy in mind ergo racism". Sure it was designed with racist intentions - I don't doubt the historical accuracy of Miles' reputation. The thing is though, it was primarily used as a battle flag by the men who fought under it. Now we see it appropriated as a symbol for Southern pride. Does that necessarily include racism? I don't think that's what most people who take pride in the flag believe. I don't doubt that there are racists in the South, but I do doubt that they put up the flag thinking "that represents me, and that represents racism". That's the case I'm trying to make here.
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Alright, the flag has a dark past. But like most things, change over time. Some, like me grew up knowing the history and hearing of it being a symbol of the South. As for racism, how on earth can a flag be racist? It can't walk nor talk. As for the person holding the flag, they may be racist. But, that doesn't make the flag or any other flag owners racist. You can fly a flag I dislike, the only problem is it won't effect my life. Why should it? Its a flag, nothing more, nothing less. But your right God, the world is falling to pieces because of shit like this, live your life and let it fall.
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here's my thing when people say "the world is going to shit" and things along that line... when was the world ever okay? since mankind has walked the earth there has been oppression, rape, violence, racism, war, injustice, etc.
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This still going?
Anyways, anybody know the main reason for that war? Wasn't just about slavery, it was mostly about the South paying taxes to the North. Even then politics were crap. Well I asked the question earlier, how does the flag effect your life, no answer, so I assume nobody's effected by it. So I ask this, why make a big deal about? I've heard that the past needs to stay buried, yet everybody keeps digging it up. And its true, no matter what anybody says, that flag will remain flying. |
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Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?) |
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I also failed to mention that the same day I was making my way home from Mississippi back into the not that much better Alabama, I passed another Confederate flag rally (a tacky one on the side of a busy street) and there was news about someone, my ex-step dad actually, getting told to remove his flag by an African-American Congressman. Him being him, he's not going to and decided that he's going to host Confederate flag rallies at his barber shop. lol So yeah, if you don't live in these areas, you're really lucky. It's literally all I see when I sign on Facebook and I think the sudden outcry against the flag has caused even more to be seen. |
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Obviously, a flag that represents the defence of slavery (and remember, what matters is not how you see it, but how the flag is seen outside) is going to cause constant harm to descendants of those enslaved, which is made worse by the fact that they were legally second-class citizens until 60 years ago and they continue to be discriminated against until today. The past needs to be buried, but it's hard to leave it buried when a piece of the past (the flag) is not buried but flying in everybody's faces. Can you imagine how well the EU would be doing if there still were Nazi flags flying all over Germany, and the German leaders told the citizens of the countries that were invaded by then to "bury the past" and not be offended by them when they went to, say, Frankfurt to discuss something in the European Central Bank HQ? How can that flag offend anybody? By reminding black Americans that their neighbours support a regime that would have had them enslaved, which is certainly the best way to foster friendship and cooperation between a population. |
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Politics is just the way humans have to discuss our opinions, make rules and try to find solutions to our problems and disagreements. Politics is deciding whether you need to build a school or give a tax break to a company or invest in weapons or in investigation or in filling potholes in the road. That's politics. Everything is politics. |
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This whole argument about the Confederate Flag reminds me of this one episode of South Park, where the kids who opposed of changing their town flag was because violence was a natural thing. They never viewed the flag as racist, which should be a key point in debates like this. Kids wouldn't even care about its original intention and use an entirely different perspective of it.
As for what's going on with the world, it's same as it always was, only more visible for everyone to see via social media and television, and it's taking them this long to try "fix" it. |
The flag does have a strong bond in the south, both good (though I use this term loosely) and bad. Good for those that call it heritage and have ancestors that served in the war, a sense of pride. Bad for those that were oppressed by it then and still are today. I think the negative outweighs the positive by a longshot and I'd rather not see it flown. And even without the racial connotations, I still don't see why people want to fly a flag for a country of states that seceded from the nation they're currently living in.
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I think we all need to recognize that symbols can be appropriated and re-appropriated, and saying that a symbol must mean X is doing a disservice to those who have taken the symbol to mean something else for a long time.
I really don't think that "Southern Pride" is a euphemism for continued racial hate or a movement to bring back or support a Confederate regime. I don't know, but I believe that those in the South are as proud for being Americans and living in the US of A as any other American. I feel that there's so much unquestioned attribution of slavery to that flag in this thread that I really have to wonder: what do those who fly that flag believe? I think it's unreasonable to assume that a symbol can only have one meaning. We talk about how the flag represents an ideology and a regime of racial superiority as if that's the only way to view the flag. But it's clearly not, and that's the reason why people are outraged at the prospect that the flag is becoming increasingly politically incorrect. I would imagine that someone who truly is proud of their Southern culture and heritage and acknowledges and dissociates themselves from the faults of the past would feel threatened if more and more people start believing that just because they fly that flag, they are racists, they hate blacks, and whatever other connotations we seem to be imposing. And for the sake of subverting Godwin's law for the rest of the thread, I don't believe that the Dixie flag is comparable to the Nazi swastika, which has been used by no one but hate and racial superiority ideologues. Is there anyone who truly believes that those who fly the Dixie flag strictly as a symbol of their pride in their Southern culture are in the minority and that the majority of people who use that symbol would like to see the progress made in race relations and equality in the past several decades overturned? |
i want to see these blue and green people that are brought up whenever someone says that we're all just human beings or the like
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We should probably rename this thread to "The Confederate Flag" at this point lol
I do agree with Kanzler that a symbol doesn't always have to represent one specific thing, but by that same token people can view the symbol in another way and legitimately take issue with it. Yes, to some people the Confederate flag is a symbol of "Southern pride/heritage" and they might not be racist, but to others it's the symbol of a nation that wished for the continued enslavement of an entire race of people. And I would think that maaaaaybe in that case you'd wanna find another symbol for your Southern PrideTM instead of a symbol that legitimately means something incredibly negative to a not insignificant number of people. I never did understand though why people take pride in their heritage or lineage though..... |
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My short answer would be that most (many) people like to feel like they are a part of something greater. For some it's family. For others it's the community. For others, it's nation. I think most people enjoy being accepted in some sort of tribe, whether it be big or small and for many people that kind of need for community identity can be fulfilled by their regional/national/historical affiliation in addition to others that are probably more universal (but obviously not absolutely universal, I'm sure we all know people who don't identify at all with their family and instead find some other community or subculture to latch on to). |
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There is a problem though, which is interfering with this whole topic, and that is that symbols can have very different meanings, and have them symultaneously. For a Southern white, the Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage and Southern pride. For a black, it's a symbol of hatred and slavery. For a northerner, it's a symbol of rebellion against their own country. And nobody can just walk in and say "now the flag only means 'rebellion against the US'", because then the other two groups will say "Yeah, because YOU say so, right? The flag has always stood for slavery/heritage and always will". As a result, when people argue about the meaning of the flag, they can't understand each other. Some people can't understand why a symbol of Southern pride can be hated so much, while others can't understand why a symbol of their ancestors' suffering or of a war against their own country can be loved by anybody at all.
The flag is extremely divisive, and the problem is that its meanings are so different that the sides cannot even agree to hide it, because one of them can't see anything bad with their interpretation of its meaning. That's why a debate needs to be held- and, to be honest, if the Southerners could find any other symbol -anything at all- to celebrate their heritage that doesn't read like an insult to millions of people, things would be much better. |
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Slavery is indeed a horrific problem, but it's not as huge in the same way as it was in the past. Slavery as a legal system where the treatment of people as property is officially sanctioned by the state no longer exists in any country. Of course human trafficking, indebted bondage and other kinds of forced labour are problems that haven't gone away and are increasingly underground. It's a much more different problem than the one faced by the antebellum Southern US slave society and has a lot more to do with law enforcement. |
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