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here's my thing when people say "the world is going to shit" and things along that line... when was the world ever okay? since mankind has walked the earth there has been oppression, rape, violence, racism, war, injustice, etc.
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This still going?
Anyways, anybody know the main reason for that war? Wasn't just about slavery, it was mostly about the South paying taxes to the North. Even then politics were crap. Well I asked the question earlier, how does the flag effect your life, no answer, so I assume nobody's effected by it. So I ask this, why make a big deal about? I've heard that the past needs to stay buried, yet everybody keeps digging it up. And its true, no matter what anybody says, that flag will remain flying. |
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Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?) |
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I also failed to mention that the same day I was making my way home from Mississippi back into the not that much better Alabama, I passed another Confederate flag rally (a tacky one on the side of a busy street) and there was news about someone, my ex-step dad actually, getting told to remove his flag by an African-American Congressman. Him being him, he's not going to and decided that he's going to host Confederate flag rallies at his barber shop. lol So yeah, if you don't live in these areas, you're really lucky. It's literally all I see when I sign on Facebook and I think the sudden outcry against the flag has caused even more to be seen. |
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Obviously, a flag that represents the defence of slavery (and remember, what matters is not how you see it, but how the flag is seen outside) is going to cause constant harm to descendants of those enslaved, which is made worse by the fact that they were legally second-class citizens until 60 years ago and they continue to be discriminated against until today. The past needs to be buried, but it's hard to leave it buried when a piece of the past (the flag) is not buried but flying in everybody's faces. Can you imagine how well the EU would be doing if there still were Nazi flags flying all over Germany, and the German leaders told the citizens of the countries that were invaded by then to "bury the past" and not be offended by them when they went to, say, Frankfurt to discuss something in the European Central Bank HQ? How can that flag offend anybody? By reminding black Americans that their neighbours support a regime that would have had them enslaved, which is certainly the best way to foster friendship and cooperation between a population. |
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Politics is just the way humans have to discuss our opinions, make rules and try to find solutions to our problems and disagreements. Politics is deciding whether you need to build a school or give a tax break to a company or invest in weapons or in investigation or in filling potholes in the road. That's politics. Everything is politics. |
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This whole argument about the Confederate Flag reminds me of this one episode of South Park, where the kids who opposed of changing their town flag was because violence was a natural thing. They never viewed the flag as racist, which should be a key point in debates like this. Kids wouldn't even care about its original intention and use an entirely different perspective of it.
As for what's going on with the world, it's same as it always was, only more visible for everyone to see via social media and television, and it's taking them this long to try "fix" it. |
The flag does have a strong bond in the south, both good (though I use this term loosely) and bad. Good for those that call it heritage and have ancestors that served in the war, a sense of pride. Bad for those that were oppressed by it then and still are today. I think the negative outweighs the positive by a longshot and I'd rather not see it flown. And even without the racial connotations, I still don't see why people want to fly a flag for a country of states that seceded from the nation they're currently living in.
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I think we all need to recognize that symbols can be appropriated and re-appropriated, and saying that a symbol must mean X is doing a disservice to those who have taken the symbol to mean something else for a long time.
I really don't think that "Southern Pride" is a euphemism for continued racial hate or a movement to bring back or support a Confederate regime. I don't know, but I believe that those in the South are as proud for being Americans and living in the US of A as any other American. I feel that there's so much unquestioned attribution of slavery to that flag in this thread that I really have to wonder: what do those who fly that flag believe? I think it's unreasonable to assume that a symbol can only have one meaning. We talk about how the flag represents an ideology and a regime of racial superiority as if that's the only way to view the flag. But it's clearly not, and that's the reason why people are outraged at the prospect that the flag is becoming increasingly politically incorrect. I would imagine that someone who truly is proud of their Southern culture and heritage and acknowledges and dissociates themselves from the faults of the past would feel threatened if more and more people start believing that just because they fly that flag, they are racists, they hate blacks, and whatever other connotations we seem to be imposing. And for the sake of subverting Godwin's law for the rest of the thread, I don't believe that the Dixie flag is comparable to the Nazi swastika, which has been used by no one but hate and racial superiority ideologues. Is there anyone who truly believes that those who fly the Dixie flag strictly as a symbol of their pride in their Southern culture are in the minority and that the majority of people who use that symbol would like to see the progress made in race relations and equality in the past several decades overturned? |
i want to see these blue and green people that are brought up whenever someone says that we're all just human beings or the like
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We should probably rename this thread to "The Confederate Flag" at this point lol
I do agree with Kanzler that a symbol doesn't always have to represent one specific thing, but by that same token people can view the symbol in another way and legitimately take issue with it. Yes, to some people the Confederate flag is a symbol of "Southern pride/heritage" and they might not be racist, but to others it's the symbol of a nation that wished for the continued enslavement of an entire race of people. And I would think that maaaaaybe in that case you'd wanna find another symbol for your Southern PrideTM instead of a symbol that legitimately means something incredibly negative to a not insignificant number of people. I never did understand though why people take pride in their heritage or lineage though..... |
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My short answer would be that most (many) people like to feel like they are a part of something greater. For some it's family. For others it's the community. For others, it's nation. I think most people enjoy being accepted in some sort of tribe, whether it be big or small and for many people that kind of need for community identity can be fulfilled by their regional/national/historical affiliation in addition to others that are probably more universal (but obviously not absolutely universal, I'm sure we all know people who don't identify at all with their family and instead find some other community or subculture to latch on to). |
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There is a problem though, which is interfering with this whole topic, and that is that symbols can have very different meanings, and have them symultaneously. For a Southern white, the Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage and Southern pride. For a black, it's a symbol of hatred and slavery. For a northerner, it's a symbol of rebellion against their own country. And nobody can just walk in and say "now the flag only means 'rebellion against the US'", because then the other two groups will say "Yeah, because YOU say so, right? The flag has always stood for slavery/heritage and always will". As a result, when people argue about the meaning of the flag, they can't understand each other. Some people can't understand why a symbol of Southern pride can be hated so much, while others can't understand why a symbol of their ancestors' suffering or of a war against their own country can be loved by anybody at all.
The flag is extremely divisive, and the problem is that its meanings are so different that the sides cannot even agree to hide it, because one of them can't see anything bad with their interpretation of its meaning. That's why a debate needs to be held- and, to be honest, if the Southerners could find any other symbol -anything at all- to celebrate their heritage that doesn't read like an insult to millions of people, things would be much better. |
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Slavery is indeed a horrific problem, but it's not as huge in the same way as it was in the past. Slavery as a legal system where the treatment of people as property is officially sanctioned by the state no longer exists in any country. Of course human trafficking, indebted bondage and other kinds of forced labour are problems that haven't gone away and are increasingly underground. It's a much more different problem than the one faced by the antebellum Southern US slave society and has a lot more to do with law enforcement. |
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