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Livewire July 25th, 2015 4:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8862945)
Like I said, I know the past. But, is there slavery in todays time? No, the flag was a symbol of the south in the war between the south and the north. Why is it that only now anybody trying to do anything about it? Its apart of American history, might as well get use to it. Cause regardless its going to be around.

"Slavery no longer being practiced" doesn't change anything? The Nazi party is no longer running Germany, but the Swastiza in that iteration is still a symbol of fascism. And there's a thing called cultural awareness, where as time goes on people begin to realize more and more that things they took as just a fact of life aren't in fact, ok. It took 80+ years and the Civil War to end slavery. 100 more years to get equal rights and protection under the law, because cultural attitudes towards it gradually changed, and people fought to change it. The "stars and bars" is a relic of a dark period in America's racial past and it belongs in the past.

Bellsprout July 25th, 2015 4:35 PM

here's my thing when people say "the world is going to shit" and things along that line... when was the world ever okay? since mankind has walked the earth there has been oppression, rape, violence, racism, war, injustice, etc.

DarkSkys July 26th, 2015 1:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8862953)
People have been condemning the flag for generations now - many have spent decades trying to 'do something about it'. However, the reason why it's garnered mass judgement from the masses once more instead of a grumbling dissatisfaction is because it is a reminder of racial intolerance during a time of rising racial tension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer (Post 8862971)
"Slavery no longer being practiced" doesn't change anything? The Nazi party is no longer running Germany, but the Swastiza in that iteration is still a symbol of fascism. And there's a thing called cultural awareness, where as time goes on people begin to realize more and more that things they took as just a fact of life aren't in fact, ok. It took 80+ years and the Civil War to end slavery. 100 more years to get equal rights and protection under the law, because cultural attitudes towards it gradually changed, and people fought to change it. The "stars and bars" is a relic of a dark period in America's racial past and it belongs in the past.

Maybe its just me, but there's no way in hell I could an immovable object be considered racist. The people that use it for that purpose are complete idiots. now if we're going to ban the Confederate flag for being a war flag from the past, then why not ban the American flag? Its also a battle flag. Regardless, if anyone likes it or not people will still fly it.

R2J July 26th, 2015 1:21 AM

This still going?


Anyways, anybody know the main reason for that war? Wasn't just about slavery, it was mostly about the South paying taxes to the North. Even then politics were crap. Well I asked the question earlier, how does the flag effect your life, no answer, so I assume nobody's effected by it. So I ask this, why make a big deal about? I've heard that the past needs to stay buried, yet everybody keeps digging it up. And its true, no matter what anybody says, that flag will remain flying.

Sopheria July 26th, 2015 4:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSkys (Post 8863364)
Maybe its just me, but there's no way in hell I could an immovable object be considered racist. The people that use it for that purpose are complete idiots. now if we're going to ban the Confederate flag for being a war flag from the past, then why not ban the American flag? Its also a battle flag. Regardless, if anyone likes it or not people will still fly it.

Similar to what I said in my first post, I feel compelled to ask again, what exactly is the problem then? Flying it isn't outlawed, so there isn't anything actually stopping you from flying it. And you just said "Regardless, if anyone likes it or not people will still fly it", so what are you even complaining about? o: (maybe complaining is too strong a word, but it gets my point across)

Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?)

Sydian July 26th, 2015 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sopheria (Post 8863532)
Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?)

The issue is that people that do fly this flag for "heritage" and the like are angry that the flag is receiving this treatment as of late. So even though that's really the only official action that's been taken, as far as I'm aware of anyway, people think that this is going to go further (and it is) and call for removal of their flag that they fly with such pride. And I guess if you don't live in a southern state, you don't really get all of that (be thankful), but it's literally everywhere here.

I also failed to mention that the same day I was making my way home from Mississippi back into the not that much better Alabama, I passed another Confederate flag rally (a tacky one on the side of a busy street) and there was news about someone, my ex-step dad actually, getting told to remove his flag by an African-American Congressman. Him being him, he's not going to and decided that he's going to host Confederate flag rallies at his barber shop. lol So yeah, if you don't live in these areas, you're really lucky. It's literally all I see when I sign on Facebook and I think the sudden outcry against the flag has caused even more to be seen.

R2J July 26th, 2015 9:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sopheria (Post 8863532)
Your first post was about what the world is coming to, and you brought up recent events, but the only thing that happened with the Confederate flag recently was that it was taken down from in front of the capital building in South Carolina and moved to a museum.(which is a good place for a piece of history, isn't it?)

Nascar has a ban on the flag, any fan that has it on there trucks can not come on Nascar land. Then you have stores not selling the classic 1969 Dodge Chargers that comes from the 1970s show the "Dukes of Hazards". Due to the top of the General Lee is a rebel flag. And there's also networks that ran the re-runs of the show pulling the show.

Ivysaur July 27th, 2015 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2J (Post 8863370)
This still going?

Anyways, anybody know the main reason for that war? Wasn't just about slavery, it was mostly about the South paying taxes to the North. Even then politics were crap. Well I asked the question earlier, how does the flag effect your life, no answer, so I assume nobody's effected by it. So I ask this, why make a big deal about? I've heard that the past needs to stay buried, yet everybody keeps digging it up. And its true, no matter what anybody says, that flag will remain flying.

Yeah, it wasn't just about slavery. Slavery was just a mere 98% of the causes of the war- the only argument brought up by each and every seceding State when leaving and even the only cause some States mentioned at all: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery Please, look at Mississippi:

Quote:

Sentence two begins, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery."
Meanwhile, Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the CSA said such beautiful things like

Quote:

Our new government is founded upon . . . its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and normal condition.
Similarily, the biggest differences between the US and the CS Constitutions are all about slavery: http://www.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

Obviously, a flag that represents the defence of slavery (and remember, what matters is not how you see it, but how the flag is seen outside) is going to cause constant harm to descendants of those enslaved, which is made worse by the fact that they were legally second-class citizens until 60 years ago and they continue to be discriminated against until today. The past needs to be buried, but it's hard to leave it buried when a piece of the past (the flag) is not buried but flying in everybody's faces. Can you imagine how well the EU would be doing if there still were Nazi flags flying all over Germany, and the German leaders told the citizens of the countries that were invaded by then to "bury the past" and not be offended by them when they went to, say, Frankfurt to discuss something in the European Central Bank HQ?

How can that flag offend anybody? By reminding black Americans that their neighbours support a regime that would have had them enslaved, which is certainly the best way to foster friendship and cooperation between a population.

R2J July 27th, 2015 4:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivysaur (Post 8864667)
Yeah, it wasn't just about slavery. Slavery was just a mere 98% of the causes of the war- the only argument brought up by each and every seceding State when leaving and even the only cause some States mentioned at all: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery Please, look at Mississippi:



Meanwhile, Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the CSA said such beautiful things like



Similarily, the biggest differences between the US and the CS Constitutions are all about slavery: http://www.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

Obviously, a flag that represents the defence of slavery (and remember, what matters is not how you see it, but how the flag is seen outside) is going to cause constant harm to descendants of those enslaved, which is made worse by the fact that they were legally second-class citizens until 60 years ago and they continue to be discriminated against until today. The past needs to be buried, but it's hard to leave it buried when a piece of the past (the flag) is not buried but flying in everybody's faces. Can you imagine how well the EU would be doing if there still were Nazi flags flying all over Germany, and the German leaders told the citizens of the countries that were invaded by then to "bury the past" and not be offended by them when they went to, say, Frankfurt to discuss something in the European Central Bank HQ?

How can that flag offend anybody? By reminding black Americans that their neighbours support a regime that would have had them enslaved, which is certainly the best way to foster friendship and cooperation between a population.

But now trying to make a race war of home turf? That would mean history repeats itself. As for my personal thought on what's fucked up in this world, its politics. The flag is gonna no matter what people say, at least this generation, next generation who knows.

Ivysaur July 27th, 2015 5:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2J (Post 8864831)
But now trying to make a race war of home turf? That would mean history repeats itself. As for my personal thought on what's fucked up in this world, its politics. The flag is gonna no matter what people say, at least this generation, next generation who knows.

'Course, you could argue that the "race war" has never ended in the South (and in most of the US as a whole), where black people are more likely to be poor, uneducated, unemployed, incarcerated or killed violently; laws make voting harder for them and the mainstream opinion is that blacks "are okay" but "shouldn't be trusted as much as a white person". Obviously, it wasn't as much of a war as long as blacks were openly and freely discriminated against and any attempts to argue against it were crushed. The problem is that discrimination is not openly accepted as the "right thing" anymore, which forces people in favour of it to defend an oppression that had been considered "the normal" until then, which, obviously, takes far more effort and is more likely to fail. When blacks weren't allowed into pools because "that's how things work here", nobody had to break a sweat to defend the status quo. Now that such a thing is frowned upon, anybody who still thinks blacks should stay away from whites has to openly argue for a clearly racist measure- that is "the war", nothing more, nothing less.

Politics is just the way humans have to discuss our opinions, make rules and try to find solutions to our problems and disagreements. Politics is deciding whether you need to build a school or give a tax break to a company or invest in weapons or in investigation or in filling potholes in the road. That's politics. Everything is politics.

R2J July 27th, 2015 8:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivysaur (Post 8864871)
'Course, you could argue that the "race war" has never ended in the South (and in most of the US as a whole), where black people are more likely to be poor, uneducated, unemployed, incarcerated or killed violently; laws make voting harder for them and the mainstream opinion is that blacks "are okay" but "shouldn't be trusted as much as a white person". Obviously, it wasn't as much of a war as long as blacks were openly and freely discriminated against and any attempts to argue against it were crushed. The problem is that discrimination is not openly accepted as the "right thing" anymore, which forces people in favour of it to defend an oppression that had been considered "the normal" until then, which, obviously, takes far more effort and is more likely to fail. When blacks weren't allowed into pools because "that's how things work here", nobody had to break a sweat to defend the status quo. Now that such a thing is frowned upon, anybody who still thinks blacks should stay away from whites has to openly argue for a clearly racist measure- that is "the war", nothing more, nothing less.

This is just people living in the past, the war was long ago just move on. Honestly I don't care what people think of me, I'm here for one purpose. That's to live my life, you act as though I fly the flag. Never said I flew it. I live around, grew up around it. But, I don't care who flies it, who believes in the past. Such as the Ku Klux Klan, every last member can kiss my ass. Same goes for the other "racist" clan Black Panthers. Those two groups can go at it all they want, I'll sit at home and live my life. If your not getting it, I don't care if you white, black, pink, yellow or green. We're all brothers and sisters in the eyes of the lord. As for what I'm saying on this topic, no matter what anyone says or does that flag will remain flying. That flag has a strong bond with people in the South. So there are many that will fly it anyways. Its the teaching in the house growing up now, they don't learn the history till High School so they believe what they we're raised on and pass it to the next generation.

Pinkie-Dawn July 27th, 2015 8:19 AM

This whole argument about the Confederate Flag reminds me of this one episode of South Park, where the kids who opposed of changing their town flag was because violence was a natural thing. They never viewed the flag as racist, which should be a key point in debates like this. Kids wouldn't even care about its original intention and use an entirely different perspective of it.


As for what's going on with the world, it's same as it always was, only more visible for everyone to see via social media and television, and it's taking them this long to try "fix" it.

Sydian July 27th, 2015 10:45 AM

The flag does have a strong bond in the south, both good (though I use this term loosely) and bad. Good for those that call it heritage and have ancestors that served in the war, a sense of pride. Bad for those that were oppressed by it then and still are today. I think the negative outweighs the positive by a longshot and I'd rather not see it flown. And even without the racial connotations, I still don't see why people want to fly a flag for a country of states that seceded from the nation they're currently living in.

Kanzler July 27th, 2015 10:58 AM

I think we all need to recognize that symbols can be appropriated and re-appropriated, and saying that a symbol must mean X is doing a disservice to those who have taken the symbol to mean something else for a long time.

I really don't think that "Southern Pride" is a euphemism for continued racial hate or a movement to bring back or support a Confederate regime. I don't know, but I believe that those in the South are as proud for being Americans and living in the US of A as any other American. I feel that there's so much unquestioned attribution of slavery to that flag in this thread that I really have to wonder: what do those who fly that flag believe?

I think it's unreasonable to assume that a symbol can only have one meaning. We talk about how the flag represents an ideology and a regime of racial superiority as if that's the only way to view the flag. But it's clearly not, and that's the reason why people are outraged at the prospect that the flag is becoming increasingly politically incorrect. I would imagine that someone who truly is proud of their Southern culture and heritage and acknowledges and dissociates themselves from the faults of the past would feel threatened if more and more people start believing that just because they fly that flag, they are racists, they hate blacks, and whatever other connotations we seem to be imposing.

And for the sake of subverting Godwin's law for the rest of the thread, I don't believe that the Dixie flag is comparable to the Nazi swastika, which has been used by no one but hate and racial superiority ideologues.

Is there anyone who truly believes that those who fly the Dixie flag strictly as a symbol of their pride in their Southern culture are in the minority and that the majority of people who use that symbol would like to see the progress made in race relations and equality in the past several decades overturned?

Her July 27th, 2015 12:41 PM

i want to see these blue and green people that are brought up whenever someone says that we're all just human beings or the like

Nah July 27th, 2015 1:32 PM

We should probably rename this thread to "The Confederate Flag" at this point lol

I do agree with Kanzler that a symbol doesn't always have to represent one specific thing, but by that same token people can view the symbol in another way and legitimately take issue with it. Yes, to some people the Confederate flag is a symbol of "Southern pride/heritage" and they might not be racist, but to others it's the symbol of a nation that wished for the continued enslavement of an entire race of people. And I would think that maaaaaybe in that case you'd wanna find another symbol for your Southern PrideTM instead of a symbol that legitimately means something incredibly negative to a not insignificant number of people.

I never did understand though why people take pride in their heritage or lineage though.....

Kanzler July 27th, 2015 2:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nah (Post 8865478)
I never did understand though why people take pride in their heritage or lineage though.....

This could be a thread in and of itself.

My short answer would be that most (many) people like to feel like they are a part of something greater. For some it's family. For others it's the community. For others, it's nation. I think most people enjoy being accepted in some sort of tribe, whether it be big or small and for many people that kind of need for community identity can be fulfilled by their regional/national/historical affiliation in addition to others that are probably more universal (but obviously not absolutely universal, I'm sure we all know people who don't identify at all with their family and instead find some other community or subculture to latch on to).

R2J July 27th, 2015 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanzler (Post 8865307)
I think we all need to recognize that symbols can be appropriated and re-appropriated, and saying that a symbol must mean X is doing a disservice to those who have taken the symbol to mean something else for a long time.

I really don't think that "Southern Pride" is a euphemism for continued racial hate or a movement to bring back or support a Confederate regime. I don't know, but I believe that those in the South are as proud for being Americans and living in the US of A as any other American. I feel that there's so much unquestioned attribution of slavery to that flag in this thread that I really have to wonder: what do those who fly that flag believe?

I think it's unreasonable to assume that a symbol can only have one meaning. We talk about how the flag represents an ideology and a regime of racial superiority as if that's the only way to view the flag. But it's clearly not, and that's the reason why people are outraged at the prospect that the flag is becoming increasingly politically incorrect. I would imagine that someone who truly is proud of their Southern culture and heritage and acknowledges and dissociates themselves from the faults of the past would feel threatened if more and more people start believing that just because they fly that flag, they are racists, they hate blacks, and whatever other connotations we seem to be imposing.

And for the sake of subverting Godwin's law for the rest of the thread, I don't believe that the Dixie flag is comparable to the Nazi swastika, which has been used by no one but hate and racial superiority ideologues.

Is there anyone who truly believes that those who fly the Dixie flag strictly as a symbol of their pride in their Southern culture are in the minority and that the majority of people who use that symbol would like to see the progress made in race relations and equality in the past several decades overturned?

My father flew the flag, always saying its a sign that's he's from the south. Of course this was on a truck like you see some doing today. I remember having people rip it off the truck, throw it on the ground, even beat on his truck if we had it parked somewhere. My dad would tell me, you can fly it. Just never use it as hate. Let the ones that live in the past do as they please, but if they physically touch you or your family for flying the flag then be a man and protect your family. I had some friends in High School that was indeed racist, which the friendship didn't last long due to me growing up with a black friend that lived next door. When it comes to the flag, its flown by personal beliefs & passing down from Generation to Generation.
Quote:

Originally Posted by God (Post 8865423)
i want to see these blue and green people that are brought up whenever someone says that we're all just human beings or the like

There is actually a women that lives around Huntsville, AL. When I was working at a Wal-Mart, she would come in once a week. Her skin was green, later I found out that's its a skin condition. As for pink, saying that it doesn't matter what color you are.

Ivysaur July 28th, 2015 6:51 AM

There is a problem though, which is interfering with this whole topic, and that is that symbols can have very different meanings, and have them symultaneously. For a Southern white, the Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage and Southern pride. For a black, it's a symbol of hatred and slavery. For a northerner, it's a symbol of rebellion against their own country. And nobody can just walk in and say "now the flag only means 'rebellion against the US'", because then the other two groups will say "Yeah, because YOU say so, right? The flag has always stood for slavery/heritage and always will". As a result, when people argue about the meaning of the flag, they can't understand each other. Some people can't understand why a symbol of Southern pride can be hated so much, while others can't understand why a symbol of their ancestors' suffering or of a war against their own country can be loved by anybody at all.

The flag is extremely divisive, and the problem is that its meanings are so different that the sides cannot even agree to hide it, because one of them can't see anything bad with their interpretation of its meaning. That's why a debate needs to be held- and, to be honest, if the Southerners could find any other symbol -anything at all- to celebrate their heritage that doesn't read like an insult to millions of people, things would be much better.

Keiran July 28th, 2015 9:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2J (Post 8865907)
My father flew the flag, always saying its a sign that's he's from the south. Of course this was on a truck like you see some doing today. I remember having people rip it off the truck, throw it on the ground, even beat on his truck if we had it parked somewhere. My dad would tell me, you can fly it. Just never use it as hate. Let the ones that live in the past do as they please, but if they physically touch you or your family for flying the flag then be a man and protect your family.

That thinking is a bit backwards because technically, having pride in your "heritage" is living in the past. Whereas recognizing a flag as being representative of a racist regime is not because people still use it. Racism is not a thing of the past, either, for we are inundated by it as we speak. Slavery itself is still a huge problem today.

Kanzler July 28th, 2015 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran (Post 8866617)
That thinking is a bit backwards because technically, having pride in your "heritage" is living in the past. Whereas recognizing a flag as being representative of a racist regime is not because people still use it. Racism is not a thing of the past, either, for we are inundated by it as we speak. Slavery itself is still a huge problem today.

I think it's doing a great disservice to the idea of heritage by not just equating it to but calling it living in the past. Heritage may be inherited from the past, but it matters because it lives in the present as well. People are proud of their heritage because they're proud of their culture and their way of life and it doesn't matter how old their culture is.

Slavery is indeed a horrific problem, but it's not as huge in the same way as it was in the past. Slavery as a legal system where the treatment of people as property is officially sanctioned by the state no longer exists in any country. Of course human trafficking, indebted bondage and other kinds of forced labour are problems that haven't gone away and are increasingly underground. It's a much more different problem than the one faced by the antebellum Southern US slave society and has a lot more to do with law enforcement.

R2J July 29th, 2015 2:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiran (Post 8866617)
That thinking is a bit backwards because technically, having pride in your "heritage" is living in the past. Whereas recognizing a flag as being representative of a racist regime is not because people still use it. Racism is not a thing of the past, either, for we are inundated by it as we speak. Slavery itself is still a huge problem today.

See growing up with that, I learned the world is full of opinions and nobody's going to have the excite same one. Beliefs are different, that's fine. But physically attacks, aren't. People taking things to far is nuts, the guy that shot up that church should be locked up. Such as the black that shot at a guys family home in Alabama while he & his family was home.


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