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Salamence strikes back (updated the OP)
Soooooo yeah, over 6 months after my Mence thread, I decided to play with it again since well I'm bored and can't think of any forgotten treasures right now.
This team is currently 44-12 on the ladder, pretty decent I guess: Spoiler:
don't clefable (Salamence) @ Life Orb Ability: Intimidate EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Naive Nature - Draco Meteor - Fire Blast - Outrage - Earthquake Mence is the Pokemon I built the team around. It's your standard DPPt MixMence with excellent coverage, boasting the ability to 2HKO the entire metagame besides Fairy-types (and uhhh AV Tangrowth). This thing takes advantage of its great defensive ability, Intimidate, to switch into physical attackers, particularly Ground-types and Steel-types, with relative ease and threatening to KO it or the incoming switch-in. Since this Salamence lacks Iron Tail, fairies can be jerks to it, since most of them aren't 2HKOed by Earthquake or Fire Blast. Explanation of moves
don't heatran (Scizor) @ Scizorite Ability: Light Metal EVs: 248 HP / 60 Def / 200 SpD Impish Nature - Defog - U-turn - Bullet Punch - Roost Since Salamence lacks Iron Tail, it's obvious Fairy-types are gonna trouble it somewhat, so Mega Scizor is present to put those trolls in their place. All of them bar Azumarill or Klefki are easily 2HKOed or OHKOed, and they usually can't win either, so yeah. With its good typing and ridiculous bulk, it can outlast its opponents fairly easily, especially with U-turn and Roost. This Scizor also happens to carry Defog, normally used on Pokemon who are either Pursuit bait ([email protected]) or weak to Stealth Rock. Scizor however, can easily destroy Tyranitar, Weavile and Bisharp while laughing at anything they try to do.
don't latios (Keldeo) @ Choice Scarf Ability: Justified EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Scald - Secret Sword - Hydro Pump - Icy Wind Choice Scarf Keldeo isn't that common, as most Keldeo tend to run Choice Specs for a high amount of raw power or Expert Belt to retain the ability to wallbreak while still being able to switch moves. Admittedly, I used Expert Belt too until I hit about 1550, as even though this team won most of its battles against offense, it still had trouble as it was a bit too slow, even with Serperior. As such I swapped Expert Belt with Choice Scarf, which means Keldeo is now able to revenge kill many boosted threats, such as +1 Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria, as well as take care of Mega Lopunny, Beedrill, Sceptile and Alakazam. It can even outspeed +2 Adamant Cloyster.
don't talonflame (Serperior) @ Yache Berry Ability: Contrary EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Leaf Storm - Dragon Pulse - Hidden Power [Rock] - Glare Serperior is the team's wincon, boasting a 130BP move with a pseudo-NP effect thanks to its ability, 113 speed, and decent coverage. This Serperior has a rather interesting moveset since this team is rather weak to Electric-types, as they tend to carry HP Ice. For this reason, Yache Berry is the item of choice, as it allows Serperior to take 2 HP Ices from the likes of Raikou and Thundurus and KO back. Mega Manectric unfortunately is hard to battle against since it also has Flamethrower, and can take a +0 Leaf Storm. Steel-types can also be a pain, especially Heatran, as this Serperior lacks Hidden Power Fire.
don't weavile (Landorus-Therian) @ Lum Berry Ability: Intimidate EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe Adamant Nature - Stealth Rock - Earthquake - Stone Edge - Gravity A weird moveset eh? Stealth Rock is mandatory on almost every competitive team out there, and this team is no exception. Landorus-T is mainly used to give the team more freedom to switch into bulky Ground-types, as well as Klefki and Ferrothorn. Klefki and Rotom-W are absolutely trolled by this set, as Gravity is usually a very rare and gimmicky move, but Landorus-T makes excellent use of it. It just double-switches alongside Klefki or Rotom-W, uses Gravity as they try to Magnet Rise or Will-o-Wisp, and OHKO both of them with a strong Earthquake. Gravity also means whatever switches in will be struck even if it's a Flying-type.
don't scizor (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Life Orb Ability: Magician EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe Hasty Nature - Dark Pulse - Psychic - Gunk Shot - Drain Punch Hoopa-U is one of those Pokemon who can really mess up balanced cores with little support, since it has enormous base stats, good coverage and the ability to switch into a lot of special attacks. It's also able to trash fairies such as Togekiss and Mega Altaria in one shot, as well as giving a lot of trouble to Clefable+Steel cores, which Salamence and Serperior can't really get past. It can also destroy Latios and Latias unless it eats a Draco Meteor on the switch. Originally I had Specs Sylveon in this slot, since it packs even higher special bulk and a stronger STAB Hyper Voice, but it had no way to get past bulky steels, especially Heatran and Ferrothorn, which Hoopa-U can easily 2HKO.
As I said, this team is rather weak to Electric-types, as well as Hoopa-U (but what team doesn't hate Hoopa-U?). I'd really like to know if I can somewhat mitigate this problem... (don't want to get rid of Mence btw). |
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I still don't get the point of running Baton Pass on Sylveon, especially a Specs set, when you literally can do the same thing by manually switching out. Slap HP Fire/Ground on it.
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can you explain the synergy more? i don't understand why these pokes are being used together.
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Scizor + Mence + Sylveon = Fairy-Steel-Dragon core. Keldeo - checks Steel-types. Landorus-T - beats Mega Meta (w/o Ice Punch) and spams EQ with impunity. Serp - main wincon. |
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also Sylveon is used over Clef for a lot of reasons, especially Baton Pass and sheer offensive pressure. Yes Scizor is a *****, but it can't even switch in that well since Hyper Voice 2HKOes offensive variants... |
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but here, let me spell it out for you. when you discuss the synergy of a team, you keep giving descriptions of pokemon. sylveon being a fairy-type or hitting hard or checking whatever the hell it is supposed to check is description. description is nice, but it's not analysis. it's not telling me why a pokemon is there, it's telling me the characteristics of the pokemon. in short, you're telling me "what" or maybe "how," but not "why." i could say "i'm using rampardos because it hits hard" but that's not answering "why" because a bunch of pokemon hit hard. adequate analysis explains how your pokemon support one another. so it's great that sylveon has way more power than clefable. why is that power necessary? does it support scizor or keldeo or another pokemon somehow? description and synergistic analysis often overlap, which is totally chill, but just saying "this poke is a badass," more or less, is not helpful. when you reach a certain level of competence, it is not unreasonable for others to expect that you spell out the synergy of the team, especially with odd choices like defog mega scizor, yache berry hp rock serperior, and salamence at all. especially if you're proud of what you're presenting, it is nice to showcase how precise the teambuilding decisions you've made are. and if they're not as precise, then maybe that's something to include too. but it's not my job or anyone else's to deduce why you made the decisions you made. i can give a much more precise rate if you actually explain the mutually supportive capacities of your pokemon. i'm not going to put more effort into your rmt than you. anyway, all i can really say now is that i have no idea how you deal with charizard (either of them) or talonflame since they can so easily wear out your very shoddy defenses against them. you're putting way too many eggs into the "i bet they won't see hp rock/glare coming!" basket. the team is also awfully slow which is hurting you defensively. |
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Also I could very easily return the question: why would I use Clefable over Sylveon? In this specific team, I don't feel like I need Clefable's advantages, namely Thunder Wave, coverage moves or Calm Mind, since this team would fare worse against special attackers in general, as well as lose initial power. Sylveon's ability to destabilize balanced teams makes it much easier for Scizor to do its job as well as help Salamence and Keldeo wallbreak. The key here is initial power. Clefable needs set up. Defog Mega Scizor isn't silly at all, it has always been one of Scizor's main advantages over Latios and Latias. It's not weak to Pursuit, can **** Tyranitar and Weavile very easily and also check Bisharp, and it can also combat fairies easily, which the Latis can't do for obvious reasons. Yache Berry Serp is good against Weavile and Electric-types with Ice coverage. And why do I use HP Rock? Well as you said this team also hates Zard and Talonflame, and +2 HP Rock can OHKO both of them. Mence... I just wanted to use it, don't hate me for that. Also I've been lately considering giving Keldeo a Choice Scarf to fare better against offense, what do you think of that? I can wallbreak fairly easily with Mence and Sylveon, so not sure if I need Keldeo to do that as well. (tbh you need a good lure or two to gain a lot of wins on the ladder...) |
A very small suggestion but you can cut a few speed EV's off serperior and still outspeed pokemon like thundurus, gengar and Latios.
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currently, i can only give you "get better checks for zard x/y, talon, tornadus, and clefable since they all get easy switch-in opportunities and you can't actually handle any of them very well." from the looks of it, sylveon is entirely expendable since besides impressive damage calculations i have no idea what it is adding to the team especially when heatran is enough of a problem since it's a sr setter that can ohko your hazard control. this is the reason description would be nice: when i offer to replace or alter this mon or a different one, i can keep in mind its original function. which is currently absent from the description besides power (and i guess beating dragons, except for the fact that charizard x and the latis actually run it over w/ their secondary stabs but yolo). w/ regard to keld i just don't think mence+sylveon is a very good breaking duo since stalls and balances can wear them down so easily and simple combos like clefable+steel wall it so effortlessly. i don't think the keld slot is where you address that though since sylveon and mence themselves are the weaker points of it so running scarf to give the team more defensive flexibility isn't the worst idea. |
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after reading this post, I'm starting to consider LO Hoopa-U over Specs Sylveon to retain a lot of special defense while gaining impressive coverage and mixed power, being able to threaten Steel-types + Clefable and Mega Venusaur a lot easier. what do you think? |
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This team's main issue is it just gets worn down so easily and cant switch into stuff well esp like Talon or Zard's more than once. :\ Stuff like Flamethrower CM Clef shreds you, same with Torny-T. Basically all the stuff anti said. Nothing to take status also makes this team a sitting duck for stuff like Rotom-W, Scald, M-Sable and anything with status to wear down your whole team. Which brings me to the next issue. This team....just doesnt break anything and lacks the ability to clean up teams late game and its actually too passive imo and gives way too many turns to dangerous threats to set up or switch in which is bad because this team doesnt have many answers to those threats which is essentially a recipe for disaster. |
yeah man i mean i appreciate the effort on the descriptions, but just to use sylveon as an example once again, you say the team needs its initial power...but why? i don't see why this is besides the fact that you're presumably filling in a "breaker" slot, but between landorus, serperior, and salamence, the team has power (at least looking at sheer numbers), but it doesn't have a lot of staying power and everything gets worn down easily. clefable helps with these problems while sylveon worsens them. i'm not interested in a sylveon vs. clef debate here, but rather i am trying to illustrate how interconnected team dynamics are and how you want to think about and explain them. (i also don't consider "it's better against balance" [sub in a different playstyle here] as very specific since team styles are much more variable than such discriptions, which are annoyingly ubiquitous, ever seem to acknowledge.)
anyway, back on topic. from what i can gather from what you've said and the make-up of the team, it's filling in roles rather than attempting to make synergistic choices. one example is serperior, which is here to serve as the "win condition." i find it an odd choice for a wincon on a team that really struggles with all of its checks. anything can serve as a win condition in a given match depending on team match-up, so you want mons to support each other so that you can execute a gameplan to set up the relevant wincon. in this case, the team is not equipped to do that for serperior. similarly, salamence is not very well supported because any clefable w/ a fire move pretty much 6-0es the team, which makes salamence not just walled in those match-ups but an active liability since you can't afford to let clefable come in. sylveon definitely feels this way since it "adds power" and thus seems to be filling a desired role of hard hitter, but it too struggles with the mons your team can't switch into, thus making it a poor synergistic fit with serperior in particular but also the rest of your team which can't heal itself and is worn by hazards, as mentioned previously. your nod to hoopa-unbound over sylveon is definitely a step in the right direction in that you're building around threats to your core members rather than filling roles (almost reminiscent of more novice teams that fill in "physical sweeper" or "special wall"), but if i'm being honest i'd rethink the fundamental structure of your team to support the core members you want to use. so let's say this team is a salamence team, as it seems to be based on the title and the op. personally, i think salamence is garbage, but if you want to try to make it work, you need to account for its shortcomings and also have teammates who appreciate its strengths. the obvious shortcoming is that mega altaria, azumarill, and clefable switch in for free, and all three of these pokemon are extremely dangerous. you chose mega scizor to cover these mons, but alt and clef can run fire coverage to bypass it, and altaria in particular can beat it with cotton guard or magnezone support. if you want a defensive mega to deal with this, venusaur actually looks like it makes a lot more sense since it cannot be trapped and is a much stronger check against clefable and altaria. alternatively, a more offensively based support option that can check those pokes is excadrill with sand support, though you'll want an azumarill check with that. also, whatever you choose to round out an offensive core w/ salamence, it should definitely pressure these pokes so that your opponent pays for bringing them in. so for example a poke like gengar makes a ton of sense, especially if you run it w/ scizor. talonflame + mega venusaur + strong hazard control looks more coherent as well and gives you some speed control. you can always lure fairies with a lo garchomp which makes more sense than landorus here if you can get a better answer to charizard x. these aren't particularly well thought through, but what i'm suggesting is that you want the synergy of your core to be very tight and precise (as much as possible) so that it's easier to give more specific support. it will make the team's structure appear less haphazard. |
...right, so after testing Hoopa-U and LO Gengar, I will replace Sylveon with the former. I realized I needed Hoopa-U's great special bulk, since it has the ability to switch into special attacks, whereas with Gengar I had to predict a lot of switches, which was a bit stupid.
Would be interested in trying Mega Venusaur over Scizor but that'd mean I'd probably need some sort of hazard control. |
hoopa unbound is definitely making your offensive core to actually break things but it's only making the defensive weaknesses of the team worse. i think you need to compress a bit and make the team tighter/more efficient with the other slots so you don't have to make tradeoffs like that.
(the suggestions i gave above are pretty much assuming that you're doing more of an overhaul than a tweaking of the team, ie gengar indeed is terrible if you're leaving serp on the team i just don't get why you'd do that.) |
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