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[QUOTE=Aliencommander1245;9457982]
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But you're right, they do certainly have issues that are hard to adress. It should be noted that 27 american states do already mandate a paper audit on electronic voting, and 18 have them in some places but not all, with a total of 5 that have no paper involved whatsoever, as it's not like there's no paper trail fullstop anywhere |
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JD repeatedly says that neither candidate is good, but Trump is green in this regard while Clinton has a no-so-great political past. He supplies examples and reasons for why both candidates are bad, and constantly, you refute them with lame "evidence", like snopes, and go on about how great one is over the other. I mean, seriously, why do you defend this terrible candidate so much, so vehemently? What possible gain do you have in this? To me, both are garbage. Clinton has a past and trump plays a fool. Neither candidate is one that I think should run an ant farm, much less a country. So, why do you fight so hard for her? Because of a notion that she will be 0.000001% better? |
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"she screwed up on her emails" This isn't a game. National secrets should never be run on a private server unless you have hundreds of people who know what they're doing that lock it down to any and all break ins. Just a couple of emails on wikileaks doesn't do any justice to how grave that situation is. Information is no joke. Don't pretend that it is. "she's about as status quo politican as you can get." this is true, no one is really as much of a snake as Clinton right now, at least not in public office. "If you really believe a stereotypical politican is as bad as an openly racist, ableist, mysoginistic turd who praises dictators and wants to mimic their style of government, then I'm not sure what else to tell you." Yes, that is exactly what I am implying. I'd rather someone have open beliefs and ideals, no matter how bad, then a snake whom I don't really get what they think. As I've said, both are bad. Both are stinking piles of garbage, but one smells more like rotten eggs then rotten fish, and some people prefer one over the other. Me personally, I know that both are bad in their own ways. But, my real question wasn't addressed by you, which is, why do you fight so hard for rotten garbage in the first place? Because it stinks a bit less? |
I'm pretty sure that people are more saying that Clinton is (clearly) the less bad of the two rather than that she's a wholly good candidate in general.
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I don't fight for clinton, i fight to dispel this misinformation people seem to have and the idea that somehow she's just as bad as trump, neither are paragons of good governance but it's very clear clinton is just a politician with nothing particularly notably good about her, but very little bad either (As most, if not all the claims that she's a "snake" or "criminal" come from places of misinformation or baseless conspiracy) while it cannot be overstated how bad Trump is, and even if you disregard a presidency under him as no one doing anything because he's so outlandish any laws he tries to push would go for them (Ignoring that people would go for for some of his more xeophobic and racist ideals) his vice president being closer to republican establishment does legitimately put people in danger, and put a lot of things people have worked very hard for at risk
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Trump is a worse person than Clinton sure, and i think it's been fairly clear since his nomination he wasn't going to win. But stop pretending the only issue with Hillary is that she's careless at best with confidential material. |
The problem is that she might not be as exciting as Sanders or have the same gravitas as Obama, but she is a normal politician with a coherent platform, actual experience, and who needs the support of progressives to win, meaning she has to at the very least include some of their proposals in their plans. Trump is an inexperienced racist who admits to sexual assault, can't speak in coherent sentences, has no idea of policy or how the Government works, ans is running for a party of no-taxes, no-redistribution white nationalists.
If Clinton is a 0, Trump is a -1,000. So saying "both are equally as bad" is actually kind of belittling to Clinton. And if you literally cannot see any difference between their candidacies, then it speaks really poorly about your civic knowledge, sorry to say. |
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She's not worse than say, Blair, Cameron, Bush or Johnson, but to suggest any of those people were anything other than terrible is ridiculous. A good bulk of people don't rag on Clinton to support Trump, they rag on her because they're sick of the state of corruption in the west. Why do you think Jeremy Corbyn is doing so well now in England? Or why Nigel Farrage gained such a following? |
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Clinton, on the other hand, has hung her hat in the same office as the 'wall street fat cats' she lobbies against! She's going to fight for women's rights, gay rights and the LGBTQ community? She takes money from the same people that would behead you if you're gay, stone you if you're a woman that gets raped, and are spiritually obligated to murder you if you're a queer or outside the faith. I've brought up Benghazi and her utter incompetence in the situation! Her dismissal of her involvement and detestable behaviour towards the families of the victims. Her abhorent failure at Comsec and Transec regardless whether or not there wasn't anything damning on the files, but as time wears on people are reading some pretty gritty stuff. I showed you an article stating how the e-mails were hacked utilizing a phishing scam. She should not have had a private server in her residence at all. There was no reason for it and no excuse to have one. She defended a rapist and said all sorts of horrendous things to the alleged victim. She laughed about it regardless. She could have stepped down, risked censure. You ALWAYS have a choice, or do you just think 'All good Germans'? What in the world happened to the case files? Did they just get magicked away to Les Schtroumpfs ville? Where did the files go? No one knows. How is that not bad? How is any of that not equally as bad? Trump evades taxes? I've already pointed out that Clinton does as well. Trump says racist things? Clinton does as well, not to mention her 'mentor' was a known leader of a KKK chapter! We don't like either candidate. I'm not trying to be rude, but both Clinton and Trump have cannons leveled at them. Trump is being accused of sexual assault. Do keep in mind we live in America, where you are innocent until proven in a court of law. So It makes me curious why you're willing to damn one candidate over allegations and not the other. Both candidates are bad, I'm sure of it. I don't know what Trump has done, and I don't care much to know. I feel like I am being extremely lenient on Clinton by saying both candidates are equally bad. I know that she is reprehensible and vile and a snake in the grass. She takes money from evil people and says she'll 'protect' those that her donors kill and murder on a daily basis. She has backed terrible people through the years and has taken money from pharmaceutical companies and Wall Street banks to lobby for them. She lies, she cheats, she steals (maybe not directly but it has a nicer ring to it than just two things). What I have been trying to say all this time probably should have been 'Trump is as bad as Clinton'. I don't like either, and I won't be bullied into saying that my opinion is wrong or incorrect because you have an opposing view. I've been constantly defending my position saying that both candidates and I'm growing weary of it. I don't like either candidate, I've said I'd rather vote for a Barbie Doll, my dog or any other inanimate object even. But I can't, and I'm stuck with bad choices all around. I haven't divulged for whom I am voting for and I don't think I will. I will no longer entertain the thought or idea that my opinion is wrong, skewed or a lapse in judgment. I didn't come here to make waves, I came here to perhaps exchange ideas on a somewhat equal level and I'm not feeling like that's happening. I do, however, feel somewhat attacked and always on the defensive in regards to my opinion on how both candidates are just as bad. I'm not going to defend my position any longer because there is no need too. We could go back and forth providing sources and samples but the fact is you're probably going to vote for Hillary Clinton if you are able and I may or may not as is my prerogative as a US citizen. Unless Trump has had equal political opportunity to revel in as much badness that Clinton has, they will remain equally poor, equally bad. I would rather see a taco in office or perhaps a pair of old, crusty underwear with the elastic eroded away in them, but I won't. I'm stuck with two people I wouldn't share a bottle of water with in a desert. I don't feel lucky that Clinton and Trump are running. I don't feel comforted or assuaged. I wish Duke Nukem was President, I wish Harrison Ford was President but they're not. They aren't running. Clinton and Trump are. And those are the choices. I don't like them, and I am not going to sit here and hear all about how Trump is bad and how Clinton is not and be belittled and attacked because of it. |
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Same goes in the UK- I gladly vote for Corbyn's ideals in our (proportional representation) elections. But in the UK, with the same "winner takes all" system as in the US, Corbyn's greatest achievement will probably be a Conservative landslide in the next election. In a Winner-takes-all system, you need, by force, to appeal to the middle ground, because you absolutely need to be the majority, or else you are irrelevant. And that's why a traditional politician like Clinton is going to become President, and why the only Labour Prime Minister in decades was Blair. |
The lack of cohesion on Trump's part in the final debate sealed it for me. You can really tell that Clinton has thought everything through - she came prepared. And not just in the conventional soundbite-speech kind of way, Clinton had potent counters ready to fly at Trump's "election is rigged" attitude and his usual attack on her history in office. She adapted in a way that Trump did not.
Let's be real - to equate Trump's pitfalls at this point with Clinton's is hideously stupid. He is an ethical disaster area compared to her and trying to get him to own up to it is ostensibly like trying to draw water from stone. Yes, in a normal election (whatever that is) Clinton's bad moves would probably have knocked her out of the running, but that is not the situation America finds itself in right now. |
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I am not talking about the no-fly zone, nor am i saying Clinton was solely responsible. I am talking about her State Dept. sending over millions in arms, rockets, munitions and equipment to groups who, as always seems to be the case, turned out to be religious extremists who've laid waste to Libya since (with no effort to stop them by the UN) and Clinton has outright expressed zero regret over this. Whilst I do not like the Daily Mail, it's the first article that pops up relating to the Obama administration dropping charges against Turi is at the very least suspicious. Of course she's not a sole player in the Libya mess, but she's the only key player from America who is currently running for POTUS. As such, she should be scrutinised for her role in it. Quote:
You don't have a tax loophole address if you aren't dodging tax. Ironically enough they share the same one. Quote:
I just hope you understand my frustration with systems that give us the Blairs and the Clintons over the Benns and the Sanders of the world. |
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Releasing things that actually have precedent for being released like tax returns or medical records (Although is there a precedent for that or did she just do it because trump kept saying she had every disease known to man? I can't remember) that are relevant to holding public office is one thing, but releasing speeches at private, mostly irrelevant events seems superfluous at best Quote:
Maybe i'm wrong because i'm not super educated on that situation, but as far as i'm aware you can't really blame a singular cog in the machine for that whole situation Quote:
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Did she ever claim he made speeches though? I feel like that's not really right Quote:
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I honestly don't get what you're saying here sorry, that you don't blame her but you're putting all the blame on her because she's the only person involved running for president? Analyse her actions all you want but as of now you haven't critically analysed her actions vs available options as much as you've lain sole blame for an event and it's outcome on her and said this is why she's not going to be a good president Quote:
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I think there'll always be loopholes in complicated systems like tax but i don't think any particular ones will be singled out to be left out of reform for some kind of personal benefit for herself, that's not really something reflected by her own career history or prior actions Quote:
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I can't find anything that's not a conspiracy video on her saying she'd "nuke iraq" and that seems like a fairly dumb thing to say in the first place so it doesn't seem likely? She didn't claim the iraq war was a business opportunity, but the country of iraq itself was a business opportunity for the US, an opportunity for business to occur with said country. Quote:
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I'm just a British guy who knows very little about American politics. Personally I think if we compare all the bad things you can reasonably say about Trump and all the bad things you can reasonably say about Clinton, Clinton comes out the greater evil.
At the end of the day, most of the criticism of Trump as a person comes down to racism, misogyny, and so on. Terrible as they are, I don't think they compare to the actual abuse of political power we've seen from Clinton. At the end of the day it seems like we've seen Trump say a lot of bad things and Clinton do a lot of bad things. It's a terrible state of affairs and they're both disgusting human beings. I'm glad we all agree on that, at least. |
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I did my civic duty, now come and join me #GOTV :P |
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Also I'm pretty jelly right now. I can't wait until I'm 18 and can vote. |
It's a WA state ballot, not a UT one :P
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I just want Mcmullin on the ballot in every state. |
One of the things I think gets forgotten in the midst of "who's a better person?" is the policies. Such as:
- Trump promising to kill every green energy measure put in place by Obama and push for the usage of coal, "which is a clean power source" and fracking; - Trump promising to cut taxes for the rich up to $1 million for people making more than $3.75m a year, which would cause the debt to soar by 7.2tn over 10 years; whereas Clinton wants to raise taxes for people making over $143k a year, up to $800k for the people making over 3.75m, which would cause the debt to fall by 1.6tn over 10 years (source: Tax Policy Centre) - Trump wants to appoint ultraconservative SC justices to overturn Roe and send it back to the states, meaning that, in a matter of hours, abortion would be outlawed in red states. The Republican Party platform vows to do the same to same-sex marriage. - Killing NAFTA and putting punitive tariffs against China sounds all fine and well until you find out that free trade has increased the purchasing power of the worse-off by 60%. - Clinton is proposing a national program to help people suffering from mental illnesses, Trump doesn't care. Just all of this makes it very clear for me who should be supported, regardless of how deep we go into the "racist/untrustworthy" fight. |
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But what about the Tax Policy Center? Were they calculated on a static basis? Ignoring investments, savings, GDP growth/loss, etc. |
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