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I'm just trying to get you out the friendzone
So one of the hot debates about modern relationships is the so called "Friendzone".
Stereotypicaly, it appears to be young men, who become friends with women, and act friendly, with the intention of either sleeping with them or wanting a relationship. Has anyone had an experience with the "Friendzone"? Does it exist or is it something made up? Can women and men strictly be "just" friends? ____ In my personal experience, the whole "I like you as a friend thing" can work both ways. I have first met guys and intentionally thought "I would date them" then as I've got to know them thought "Our friendship would be over if we dated, it won't work". I've also had the same done to me. I don't think in the whole friendship that at least one party hasn't thought "What if we dated" and developed infatuation. Whether it lasts a week/months, our brains are programmed to find a deeper bond |
of course boys and girls can be friends without both wanting to be in a relationship but i also think MOST of the time they become friends because one of them likes the other that is how it goes a lot, right i guess it just depends on the people and their personality wether you are making new friends because you want sex or because you genuinely find the person interesting and got things in common with them and seriously just want to make friends... |
I don't just think that the friendzone is something that guys are put it because I've done it with a few girls as well. I've been in enough relationships to know when it isn't going to work out, at least not at that point. Whenever I do date people, its when I've known them for at least a couple years. A lot of that is because I can't truly know other people and whether I could actually have a romantic relationship with them unless I've spent a long time with them and understand them.
As for whether people can actually be "just friends", I think that they absolutely can. If someone is so desperate to get out of the friendzone, then you really do need to look at their motives. Why would you be so eager to get into a relationship with someone? If you don't really know the other person or have only known them for a short time, than why would you try to get into a relationship quickly that you don't even know if it will go well? I may be the minority, but I think that people go way too quickly when it comes to relationships, and if someone is so obsessed with avoiding or getting out of the friendzone, then they are trying to go too quickly. I posted a little while ago in another thread about the difference between love and infatuation, and I think that definitely applies here. If you are so infatuated with another person that you cant stand being in the friendzone, then is it really love? If you really loved the other person, wouldn't you be okay waiting and getting to know them better as a person and trying to start a relationship at a later point? And if a guy or girl has been in the "friendzone" for a long time and you still care about them romantically, as well as a friend, then be honest. Give yourself time to think about a relationship rationally as well as emotionally. Welp, theres my opinion. |
The friend zone is real in each individuals mind. Many times it feels weird to people to try and get into a relationship without knowing someone. At this point one tries to get close to the their potential partner by being their friend. Unfortunately this is usually the time one gets "friend zoned". There are of course certain criteria that makes one more likely of winding up their but a lot of that is opinion and speculation. The friend zone is basically just an easy way of explaining to our brain why it won't happen.
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Well, obviously if a guy were trying to enter into a girl's friendship circles, then this would compromise their goal of standing out, if they ever had such. The girl wouldn't be getting any signals that this person was attractive, and in brief in the social sphere sought for some reason there wouldn't be much bringing them together in that way, etc. Obviously saying that they should 'get to know them' - as friends - would merely encourage such a thing, and presumably exclusive relationships are to be entered into in a spirit of attraction, desire, love, or whatever, rather than pragmatism. This kind of concept came about in the context of a society which basically envisioned all such exclusive relationships as in continuity with 'friendship' and ordinary socialising, which is to say befriending people not because you like them but because someone claims that you should have friends and they're just to be used to satisfy the gap - which is still 'using' people, by the way, and as such most people didn't consider 'friendship' a category devoid of this -, rather than as something diametrically opposed. As such, it was an attempt to counter-act the prevailing advice, which was just to interact with social circles and their society generally, by observing that in lieu of entirely dishonest proceedings such exclusivity and individual relationships generally are fostered by remaining apart.
Incidentally, this is a fairly interesting place in which to post this. The anime certainly believes in the 'power' of the 'friendzone' - namely to lead to something more - while the games are more ambiguous, although clearly Mewtwo believes that in such contexts, "You are not this human's servant? You are his friend? You are as pathetic as the rest," as, "Humans and Pokémon can never be friends," and in matters of the heart is always prepared with the canard, "Why do you flee from me? Are you afraid to find out which of us is greater?" |
Cuz you look even better than the photos~
I think the friendzone is real to the extent that we mentally categorize people into more or less static spaces. We don't think of our friends as that group of people from which relationships are spontaneously produced, like bubbles in a pot of boiling water. |
The trope of men being "friendzoned" by women is ridiculous. I as a woman have been rejected by guys and seen as "just a friend," and while rejection does suck, to pretend that this is some kind of epidemic, one that only affects straight guys, is ridiculous.
There are plenty of reasons someone wouldn't want to date you, and nobody owes you a reason for not wanting to date you. Sometimes "I consider you a friend" is just meant to soften the blow, because...well, most people actually value their friendships. To be offended over being told you're "just a friend" implies that you don't actually value that friendship. Someone who complains about "always being friendzoned" doesn't see the positives of just being friends with women, and that is both sad and kinda gross. If we're going to talk about the "freindzone," the other side of the coin is women who get "girlfriendzoned" by straight men. It is really frustrating to be seen only as a potential girlfriend by someone you like and trust, especially when you're clearly not interested in romantic relationship for whatever reason. It's also frustrating when someone acts like they want to be your friend, but are only interested in you romantically. Just be honest about your intentions, people! To ask if women and men can be just friends is as ridiculous as asking if lesbians can be friends. :/ Crushes happen, they're normal, and as with most crushes, they eventually fade. A solid friendship will withstand a bit of awkwardness. ~Psychic |
I don't think it's possible to have a discussion about true love outside of a relationship. The early feelings of attachment and infatuation are really confusing, and let's be real, it's not true love at the beginning even if the relationship that ends up occurring is really good.
Wanting to be the friend of a potential significant other is honestly a good strategy, if you will. I mean, how do you expect a relationship to last if you can't keep up a friendly level of interaction? And to further expand on the reality of the friendzone: I think it is substantiated by personality flaws or dislikes or incompatibilities that reveal themselves over the course of the friendship. The same phenomenon occurs in a relationship as well, which is why most relationships don't work out. The only difference is that those incompatibilities don't lead up to a breakup when you're in the friendzone, but in either case, one party is eliminating the other party as a potential romantic target over the course of having experienced them. |
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For example in reference to it, when I work in retail there was this guy who loved to give his number out and try to get in a relationship with every girl. When I told one of the older women this, she said I should give him a chance because he's nice. It's strange to only date someone just because of that but she found it normal, and even when he was sending me 30+ messages a day, she said it was just being friendly. As mentioned above it seems when you are friends with the opposite gender a lot of questioned get raised, and it's almost like "why are you not" Quote:
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If people are in relationships for the sake of being in relationships, rather than being in love with the person, then that is called social pressure. Admittedly there is a lot of such pressure on females, who are expected generally to be in such, but anyway. Quote:
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Incidentally it seems strange that people immediately assume when people discuss these things in the context of gender that this necessarily means that they're positing something inherent to the female gender by this, when obviously in terms of social dynamics and characteristics females are very different from males. This might even affect social conduct of some people which involves them, this is not even going too far. |
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The fact is that being friendzoned hurts. Overcoming that is hard to do. Exiting the friendzone usually also difficult.
Friendzoning someone can also be difficult. It is painful. Especially if you do care about that person. What you do about it is up to you. Friendships don't have to end when romance fails. They simply don't. They also don't have to continue when romance does fail. It's a decision between two people. Their decision because it's their emotional well being at stake. |
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As for your last paragraph, what exactly about that differentiates "friendzoning" from regular rejection? People in this thread seem to be equating the two a lot, and while "friendzoning" is a type of rejection, not every rectangle is a square. I'm admittedly confused by a lot of this post and am not sure what you were trying to say, so I'll hold off on responding further. Quote:
I am a strong proponent of loving yourself and making sure you're ready before entering into a relationship. You should be mature enough to be comfortable with being single before getting ahead of yourself. Quote:
As for your second paragraph, while that's not really on the subject of "friendzoning" imo, that is still really creepy and not okay, both on the part of that guy and your coworker. I completely agree that dating someone only "because they seem nice" is so icky. "Being nice" is something I expect of all people - if your primary positive quality is "being nice" then it's hardly a ringing endorsement. Also, this is absolutely a social pressure that's mostly aimed at women. Guy don't really get told "you don't seem interested in that girl, but she seems nice, give her a chance!" as regularly as women. Also no, sending someone 30+ texts is not "being friendly." It sounds like your coworker has really bad judgement, please don't take her advice. :/ Quote:
No, you are not "required" to give reasons for not wanting to date someone, or not wanting to be their friend, or not wanting to have sex with them. Heck, you don't even have to tell someone why you're breaking up with them, even though it would be nice if you did. Nobody has to justify their choices to other people: if someone says "no, not interested" then it's not up for debate or discussion. Too often, providing someone with reasons just makes them try to convince you your reasons aren't good enough, or try to logic their way out of it. This is especially dangerous with abusers - obviously you can't say "it's because you verbally abuse me," but they will also use every reason you use against you, so it's safer not to give them any ammunition. There are situations where "sorry, but no" is simply the best answer, plus people who won't listen to "no" are not people who you should give answers to anyway. For the record:
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I'm not sure you understood my point about dishonesty. I said it is dishonest to try and become someone's friend if you were never actually interested in being friends with them. That's like becoming friends with a rich person because you're hoping they'll give you free stuff, then acting hurt when they don't. You can't complain about being "friendzoned" if you literally acted like you just wanted to be friends the whole time. If you act like a friend, people will treat you as a friend. I'm all for relationships blossoming out of friendships, but if you're into someone, just be upfront. Quote:
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Would it be nice to get an explanation when you get rejected? Oftentimes, hell yes! There's no denying that. But 1) that doesn't mean it will help, and 2) it still doesn't mean you're entitled to hearing the reasons. When my first boyfriend dumped me, he thought he was "helping" me by giving me a long laundry list of reasons why he had done it. It didn't give me closure; it just made me upset. Quote:
~Psychic |
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For your first point, there was a poster before you who mentioned that joining someone's circle of friends would harm their chances of getting with them, and I wanted to provide a counterpoint to that. I don't think I claimed that you need to be friends with someone before you date them, just that it is a good strategy. And yes, regardless of whether you're friends or not pre-relationship, not being able to keep up a level of communication and intimacy during a relationship will reduce the chances of it succeeding. That's all I'm saying. Quote:
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Now depending on her personality and how well we know each other, I'd be willing to give her an explanation if that's what she wants. It's not like I generally have a thing against explaining my reasons for doing things to other people, so there's no real reason stopping me. If it means so much to her to have an explanation and it doesn't really come at any cost to me, then I don't see what's preventing me from giving her what she wants. I'm not responsible to her in any way, but to the extent that I care about her as a human being and to the extent I just want her off my ass, then hell yeah I'm going to move on as quickly as possible because whatever I can achieve that situation is win-win for both of us - I don't want to be harassed, and I don't think it's good for her to hang on to something that just isn't going to work out. Obviously if there's something prohibiting you from taking that course of action, then no you shouldn't unreasonably cause harm to yourself. But to the extent that you can and won't hurt yourself in the process, then you should do what you can to help that separation. The idea is that communicating for the sake of closure is in principle a good thing. That's all I'm saying. And it's perfectly possible that the other person wouldn't even respect an explanation even if you give them one, in which case the best idea is probably to cut all contact since the other person seems unwilling to communicate constructively - so it's not like I advocate giving an explanation for each and every case of rejection. My point is, more fundamentally, that when you're deciding how to respond to a breakup or rejection, it's better to consider your options on the basis on the pros and cons of each option in addition to whatever you're morally/socially responsible/not responsible for. Quote:
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And getting friendzoned honestly goes both ways (as Electricbluewolf pointed out in the OP). It's not a gendered issue because everybody has the capability of feeling love and pain and everybody can be rejected. |
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The thing is I'm not talking about rejection and being friends with the person who rejected you. I'm talking about people who go after someone with the intention of dating/having sex while using tactics like being really nice and buying them things "out of the goodness of their heart", then becoming loudly bitter if the person doesn't wanna date or sleep with them afterall; as if they were expecting romantic/sexual affection just for being kind and giving gifts. Those are things that should be done because you're a good person, not because of a gross hardly-ulterior motive. |
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I think some other people have pointed it out that being nice or friendly does not constitute a relationship. Being nice and friendly is what you look for in a human being non -stop, not just for a relationship. It's almost like if I buy everything they want and say everything they want to hear they must want to date me. Never did, I chucked his phone number in the bin when he gave it to me. He got into trouble for trying to chat up a 14 year old (He's 27 btw). Every girl got the sense of creepiness from him, as he turned conversation to dating and what not. I've left there now, don't think that older lady will be saying "he's just trying to be nice" anymore |
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(And did you mean 'full-stop,' not that it affects the message. Revelations.) Realistically, though, it's likely to be expected of people who are of the opposite gender, in most cases, outside of the primary social dynamic and expected to be nice to a person due to valuing their sex (otherwise people follow a certain sense of social hierarchy and recognition, so that they aren't expecting anything personally per se, 'in a human being'), while otherwise people will socialise normally. When people ask for irrational affection, they generally mean sexual interest, hence from people of the other gender which might be guys. They are usually expected to win girls' affections by giving them things, being nice, being funny, or whatever, while the dynamic the other way is that girls have attractive bodies, which is in either case a simplification of the actual situation, but such a niche in a dynamic might lead to peculiar tendencies not shared by the other side. If you wished to simplify, you could say that girls were attracted to guys because they act and people were approving, and guys found girls' bodies attractive because someone said they should, but this is not only not inherent to either side or any such people, but highly flexible and in that sense 'nice guys' can get into relationships as much as anybody else, but only specific ones. Likewise girls were expected to be 'nice,' but this was not expected, socially, to be their 'suit,' so to speak, unto the other - who might well be within this society. A person who was 'friendzoned' was unlikely to bring up relationships immediately, though, just to have extended conversations about nothing. This would pass for 'being sociable,' which girls are also pressured to be, and hence would be unlikely to turn up their noses at automatically. They would be likely to only say or listen to highly accessible things, however. Quote:
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I've had a friendzone experience with one of my online friends. She sees me as a sex friend, because although she's interested in finding a serious relationship herself, she enjoys sleeping with other men. Since she and I share common dirty minds, I thought the two of us could be together after being friends for a few years, but she rejected my offer and still wanted to stay friends, although she's still interested in sleeping with me. Of course, she also encouraged me to continue looking for a girlfriend, but I fear I'll never find a girl like her anywhere else.
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Fair enough in terms of the second and third paragraphs. Quote:
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If you're in a safe situation, you don't mind saying why you're rejecting someone, and you don't think the other person will react badly, then sure, go ahead! My point is that you can tell someone why you're rejecting them, but you do not have to. Quote:
I actually would argue that this is a gendered issue, because while people of all genders can get "friendzoned," it's mostly heterosexual men who complain about it. When guys talk about getting friendzoned, there are very noticeable trends, such as the guys self-identifying as "nice guys," having a sense of entitlement, and literally only befriending people solely because they want to pursue the person romantically/sexually. That's an unpleasant combination at best, and it tends to mostly crop up with straight dudes. Quote:
Exactly. Having a basic amount of niceness to everyone is expected human behaviour. People act like they deserve a reward just for being nice. (Usually, this reward is sex or a girlfriend.) It's the idea that women are like machines: if you insert enough gifts and niceness into us, we should spit out sex in return. That's also where the idea that "buying a girl a drink = ensuring she will have sex with you" comes from. *shudders* I am glad to hear that! I hope he has stopped doing that at this point, but that may be too much to hope for... Quote:
Second, you're missing the point. The issue is that you have people (mostly men) who are nice to other people (mostly women) solely because they're interested in them romantically/sexually. They're only nice to people because they expect something in return - in this case, that's sex or a relationship. These are also the people who tend to self-identify as "Nice Guys." If someone's main defining quality is that they are "nice," then it's hardly a ringing endorsement. This is a great deconstruction of what people hear when someone identifies as a "Nice Guy." Everyone should act with a basic level of decency towards others. I don't think that's a very controversial stance, and it's not really all that difficult. If I meet someone who is only nice to people they like, that sets off alarm bells in my head. Why would I want to be around someone like that, never mind date them? Quote:
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This isn't the advice thread, but dude, if someone rejects you, the best thing to do is move on. It sounds like you have a bad case of oneitis and have convinced yourself there is nobody else in this whole wide world. Please read the link, because this happens to a lot of people. ~Psychic |
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I don't think the friendzone is something that should exist. I think people that feel they've been friendzoned and get upset over it don't know how to have a healthy relationship. It's also hypocritical since they're basically relationshipzoning the target of their infatuation. These types of people believe they deserve anything just for putting in minimum effort, regardless of what the other party feels. Ultimately I feel it's a terrible concept, but at least it seems to be dying out. I don't really hear the term being used that much anymore - I'm guessing because the criticism of it made those people realize how childish and creepy it was.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being someones friend and it's silly to get upset over it. And, yes, men and women can strictly just be friends with each other; I've literally been in the bathroom with a friend while she was using the toilet and we've never even thought of a relationship. |
Isn't it privileged to be calling out relationshipzoning like it's equivalent to friendzoning? I don't know about the rest of you, but I think it's easier to be crushed upon than have that unrequited crush yourself.
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I honestly do not understand what you're trying to say here. I specifically told you how to woo women: Quote:
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If you really don't believe that there are people whining about how they are Nice Guys who keep getting "friendzoned," just do a Google search. The proof is in the pudding. I reiterate: you should act with a basic level of niceness towards everyone, regardless of whether you like them. How you treat people actually says a lot about you. I pay attention to how people treat retail employees, waitresses and other people on-the-job; how someone treats an employee says a lot about their personality. It is very telling, and is a much better indicator of whether or not the person is dating material. Quote:
I hate to say it, but based on your previous post, which you acknowledge was messed up, you are seriously not in a position to talk about what relationships were or are. I also have no idea why you're talking about Espeon or clones, it is very weird. Quote:
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First off, you should be nice because that is a basic thing all human beings should be. We do not get rewarded for showing a basic amount of human decency. Again, if someone thinks one of their best qualities is their niceness, then it signals to potential suitors that there is nothing else interesting or attractive about them. Again, see here. Of course people only act a certain way towards people they're romantically/sexually interested in, nobody's denying that. But each person, regardless of their gender, likes and is attracted to different things. Being nice to someone is generally not attractive in itself, because again, we expect everyone to be "nice" at the very least. It's a very, very low bar, and if all you are is "nice" then it doesn't set you apart from anyone else. This is why the whole rhetoric of "I'm a Nice Guy, why don't women like me?" is so ridiculous. You get people act with a basic amount of niceness to the object of their affection, and get confounded when their affection isn't returned. It's because being nice doesn't actually make you stand out or signify on its own that you're interested in someone. Ugh. Quote:
~Psychic |
Frustrating sure, but you're not the one with your hopes dashed. I don't know, I have seen people crush hard and it sucks for them when the feelings aren't returned. That's why I think it's a bit cushy when we're talking about friendzoning and relationshipzoning like they're equivalent in severity. For me, people complaining from a position of superiority that marginalizes more severe suffering = privilege.
Regarding your other points, you shouldn't construe my lack of response as agreement. You're misreading my points and I don't think it's necessary for me to quote myself and highlight all those points that you didn't address and if you did address would make your response redundant. I also think that you're really oversimplifying and diminishing the value of "niceness". When we praise someone for being nice, we're not saying that oh they're basic human levels of nice and that's awesome because they're a regular decent person. No, we're talking about someone who goes above and beyond that. I have some friends, on PC, for that matter, whose highest quality, in my opinion, is their niceness. They are patient, kind, understanding, with real commitment. When they talk, there's no judgment or attitude in what they have to say or think. That's a really nice person, and someone who shows a level of kindness that honestly isn't common. And you could use any of those, among other, words to describe them, but nice isn't off the mark at all. And being nice to someone does indeed make you stand out among everybody else. And that's because when you're nice to someone because you're interested in them, you're probably not showing them the same respect or attention that you do everybody else - you're going beyond that, you're doing favours, you're complimenting them, whatever, all of which can absolutely described as "nice"! What I'm getting from what you're saying is that being nice is just a basic human thing that everybody should have and really wouldn't distinguish a person from others when it comes to what matters in a relationship. I couldn't disagree with that more. |
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You are using the words "superiority," "marginalizes" and "privilege" all incorrectly. What you are saying is that having a crush on someone makes you inferior, insignificant, and means you have less rights or advantages than the object of your desire. If you honestly believe that having a crush on someone is equivalent to literally being less important and having less rights than someone else, you're going to have to prove it. Quote:
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Obviously people whose niceness goes above and beyond do exist. I have friends like that too, they're great, but their positive qualities go beyond "nice," just as you described your friends as far beyond simply "nice." They also aren't nice because they want or expect something in return. Quote:
When I said in my previous post that I pay attention to how people treat employees in the service/retail industries, I don't only mean potential suitors, I mean all of my friends. I don't like to associate with people who can't show basic decency to others, and as a result, I've cultivated a stellar group of friends. When looking for a potential suitor, being as nice as my friends is a prerequisite, not a plus. I think a lot of people feel similarly, because we want more than just a Nice Guy. ~Psychic |
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Being superior means being above someone in a hierarchy or a structure. If you have a crush on someone, they have power over you. So the person being crushed on is superior in that relationship and hence possesses superiority blah blah blah Marginalize means to make less significant. I believe that if you speak of two scenarios as if they were equal when they are not, then you are making the more severe scenario less significant - hence marginalizing. Like talking about First World Problems in a way that marginalizes problems of greater magnitude in the global South. Privilege is just some benefit that a group of people have over others. People who don't have unrequited crushes on others have the benefit of not having to feel suck about that crush. That's a privilege. Like how people who aren't Black or Latino or Arab these days have the benefit of not feeling wary about the police. I realize that you probably engage in some discourse that takes more circumscribed definitions of those words and limits the contexts in which they are used. I'm using those words as they mean generally but I don't think that it makes my usage of those words wrong. I think the average person will find some sense in what I am saying and wouldn't object with my usage of those terms. \ And since when did the conversation around getting friendzoned revolve around "Nice Guys"? How many "Nice Guys" do we actually know in real life? I get this feeling that it's this stereotype or caricature that just went viral a couple of years back thanks to the likes of nigahiga (who I enjoy, no disrespect to him) so I don't see why we're (and not all of us) are focusing on "Nice Guys" when the friendzone (getting placed in that mental category from which relationships do not emerge/getting pulled out of relationship possibility limbo right?) is something that can happen to anybody. The first few posts were all about how this goes both ways and how it happens to individuals, but now we're just revolving around "Nice Guys" because they're so big of a deal, right? Because loverzoning the other person is necessary to getting friendzoned? I feel like you're taking this discussion to a certain case that is stereotypical and isn't reflective of friendzoning as it occurs to most people. I don't think the OP intended this thread to be focused on "Nice Guys" who feel like they're entitled to affection, and in any case, I don't think we should unnecessarily limit this discussion to what in the big picture is a fringe case. |
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This post does come across as something like a slightly outré rendition of 'Use Somebody' (because we need some more of those? Well, apparently), so props. Which is really something that PC needs more of. 'I've been roaming around always looking down at all I see, / Painted Mayers fill a Taillow but can't evolve, / You know that...'? Quote:
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I mean, I guess you could take these things up with the Catholics, but I hear May had a Skitty, so they're probably busy venerating some dead saint. Perhaps you meant sexual history, though? It's hard to find a consensus in such spheres, though, anyway, as much as it seems mostly like calling someone's analysis of a piece 'wrong' because some academic said so, while that would usually be in its favour. That said, as much as I may be 'backwards-thinking,' which I get a lot but is expected of me, and 'sexist,' which I also don't mind in itself, I only acknowledge myself to be 'wrong' sexually. Otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing. You might get the thing where insults from others can be taken as compliments, however. Anyway, it's good that you're disturbed by something vaguely perceived in a certain section of words, this must be how Gastly feels when people enter the Tower. In matters of the heart Taillow is broken. Quote:
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Situation situation situation situation. |
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