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-   -   Debate Should kids be allowed to learn martial arts? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=367781)

Midnight shadow April 26th, 2016 1:05 PM

Should kids be allowed to learn martial arts?
 
Martial arts are fast becoming the norm in western culture, with more and more clubs opening up lesson to students of all ages. However, should we be teaching children how to fight from an early age? Can they handle the responsibility of learning techniques that could harm or even kill another person?

Somewhere_ April 26th, 2016 1:35 PM

I believe martial arts may be a good thing. I haven't taken any myself, but as far as I know, they teach that it should only be used in self-defense (assuming the kid is mature enough to not attack others).

I know some people who actually put their children into martial arts to protect them.

Pinkie-Dawn April 26th, 2016 4:18 PM

I'm suddenly reminded of that one episode from Hey Arnold, where he learns martial arts to get back on that bully who stole his wallet. But on that same episode, he abused his skills and harmed an innocent civilian. And because of that, I feel that kids shouldn't be learning material arts at such an early age, because kids are still too young to learn responsibility with their new material art skills until they're much older.

MiracleGhost47 April 26th, 2016 10:10 PM

The best way to determine the responsibility of a person is not to look at their age. It is to delve into their history. Is there anything he/she has done to prove he/she is worthy or not worthy of learning martial arts? If no accurate conclusion can be derived, it's probably better to prevent that person from learning martial arts. Of course, this applies to both children and adults.

So, you may be wondering how one determines the level of responsibility a stranger possesses. The most convenient way is probably to just ask. Questions like "have you committed any felonies" or "do you have good self-control" should work. If possible, also ask a friend or parent of the person enrolling to have better a better accuracy of the client's perspective.

Midnight shadow April 27th, 2016 1:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9216977)
I'm suddenly reminded of that one episode from Hey Arnold, where he learns martial arts to get back on that bully who stole his wallet. But on that same episode, he abused his skills and harmed an innocent civilian. And because of that, I feel that kids shouldn't be learning material arts at such an early age, because kids are still too young to learn responsibility with their new material art skills until they're much older.

There are some who would argue that kids are going to get into fights no matter what you do, but with martial arts training they learn discipline and restraint in order to control it. Unfortunately a lot of martial arts schools focus only on teaching the techniques and never teach their students restraint. Throwing a punch at someone is easy, while learning when not to fight can take a lifetime. The other problem is kids can easily grow overconfident in their abilities and feel the need to test their skills against an opponent. As a result they may get into even more fights trying to prove themselves.

Sanguine April 27th, 2016 1:06 PM

I completely support the notion that kids should be allowed to learn martial arts, as long as the ones instructing them reinforce that the techniques learned should only be used in self-defense. A proper environment where both ability and humility are taught is honestly amazing for children and teenagers, as it's great for fitness, it's fun, and it's not as if kids are just going to want to go out and hurt people.

bobandbill April 27th, 2016 7:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight shadow (Post 9216814)
Martial arts are fast becoming the norm in western culture, with more and more clubs opening up lesson to students of all ages. However, should we be teaching children how to fight from an early age? Can they handle the responsibility of learning techniques that could harm or even kill another person?

Absolutely. (Also, I'd argue it already is a sort of norm and has been for years, but that's another matter).

Mind you, I'm speaking as a person who started karate lessons at the young age of six, and have stuck to it ever since. I even currently teach it to people of all ages! But firstly, any martial art place worth their salt should be doing more than just teaching technique - they should be teaching when not to hurt others, different sort of appropriate defensive tactics based on the situation/context, etc. Karate for instance has a large part of its tradition or background based on the concept of 'only using it when utterly necessary'.

While you can always say 'well, some schools could be teaching it incorrectly and even lead to kids being more likely to fight', that could be said of many other practises and relevant dangers. I think it's better to stick to the notion that most schools doing it properly and we aren't sending kids to unqualified teachers (there are official courses required to gain the rank of sensei, for instance).

At any rate, the benefits of exercise, life skills, meeting other people, confidence (this has helped many kids I've taught! Also myself I believe), mental strengthening and also just the fact it's fun for many are all pros imo. Meanwhile, I am not aware of any kids going on and causing issues from learning karate.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9216977)
I'm suddenly reminded of that one episode from Hey Arnold, where he learns martial arts to get back on that bully who stole his wallet. But on that same episode, he abused his skills and harmed an innocent civilian. And because of that, I feel that kids shouldn't be learning material arts at such an early age, because kids are still too young to learn responsibility with their new material art skills until they're much older.

I hardly think an episode from an animated cartoon is a great source for such an argument. Certainly not for me when I compare to my own first-hand experiences for... 18+ years.

Esper April 28th, 2016 9:39 AM

I took aikido classes. They taught me the best thing to do is not get into a fight. From what I've heard from other people who've taken other martial arts that's almost always Rule #1.

My impression is that more than learning to fight you learn self control, how to keep yourself safe, and respect for the people you practice with and for those who are teaching you. I think it would be a good thing even for angry or violent kids in the way that sending a kid to boot camp can help calm them down without being so drastic.

Cura April 29th, 2016 1:32 PM

As an actual black belt, a veteran of 15 years of training and former teacher of Marshal Arts (Korean Tang So Doo); most of the newer recruits were children. Its actually best for them to teach them when they are young, showing and having them understand self-defense, confidence, and how to be assertive. One of our major teachings was that you are to walk away from aggression and not engage or employ Marshal Arts as an offensive actions.

If they put your hands on you, then you are free to protect yourself. Sadly, the backward teaching to today's generation is showing how if you are being assaulted you should just be assaulted. Certain members of my family are pure testimony of this as their schools are teaching that if you are being bullied, pushed around, or hurt; you should ignore the person hurting you OR report it and hope something comes of it.

One of the best teachings I learned was, "If someone putted your hands on you in a manner of provoking offensive or assaulting in nature; just one steady defensive punch do a weakpoint would make no one bother you or assault you in the hall ways."

Guess what? It worked.

killer-curry April 29th, 2016 4:52 PM

For me, Chinese Martial Arts has only one function. Protect People. You learn martial art just protect yourself or your friends , even people in trouble. I would think that martial art can also teaches people in way of life. So, I would think that children that learn this should know about the responsibility to use their fist and legs.

OuterTsuchinoko April 30th, 2016 9:51 AM

I think children learning martial arts is a great thing. It helps them in many aspects and they will learn to be a better and more productive person. I think the younger they start the better because they'll learn that they should not use it for anything but self defense and their teachings will be more ingrained into them and there'll be a less likely chance of them using it for the wrong reasons.

Midnight shadow April 30th, 2016 3:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OuterTsuchinoko (Post 9221776)
I think children learning martial arts is a great thing. It helps them in many aspects and they will learn to be a better and more productive person. I think the younger they start the better because they'll learn that they should not use it for anything but self defense and their teachings will be more ingrained into them and there'll be a less likely chance of them using it for the wrong reasons.

I can definitely see that for the very young kids (5-8 years old) but the ones I'm worried about are the teenagers who take up martial arts just so they can be like [insert famous martial artist here] kicking butt wherever they go. These types of people are a lot less likely to understand the philosophies and background of the arts and the lessons regarding the use of the techniques. Then, if they go into a class and find that 75% of the work is body conditioning and simple techniques, chances are they will either quit or not take the training seriously resulting in injury (to themselves and others).

Nah April 30th, 2016 4:28 PM

If they quit that's probably a good thing. Since they were likely to not understand things and misuse their training, it'd be for the best if they didn't learn marital arts at all. In the scenario of them not taking it seriously and posing a danger to themselves and others, I would hope that a good instructor would be able to identify a poor student and either get them to take it seriously and understand, or remove them from the class.

Midnight shadow April 30th, 2016 6:38 PM

So I've been browsing the youtube checking out the various martial arts and I'm seeing a theme with the comments of said videos. Whenever you have a Martial Arts demonstration video for especially Kung Fu styles, there are always tons of comments which go along the lines of "this is shit, it will never work in a real street fight. Take up boxing/muay thai/kickboxing/etc instead". This seems to be the main reason why people take up a Martial Art and I get that you want to be able to defend yourself on the street, but this to me can very easily turn into the "i want to be able to beat someone to a pulp" syndrome (patent waiting).

OuterTsuchinoko April 30th, 2016 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight shadow (Post 9222305)
So I've been browsing the youtube checking out the various martial arts and I'm seeing a theme with the comments of said videos. Whenever you have a Martial Arts demonstration video for especially Kung Fu styles, there are always tons of comments which go along the lines of "this is ****, it will never work in a real street fight. Take up boxing/muay thai/kickboxing/etc instead". This seems to be the main reason why people take up a Martial Art and I get that you want to be able to defend yourself on the street, but this to me can very easily turn into the "i want to be able to beat someone to a pulp" syndrome (patent waiting).

Yeah people like that need to just take up boxing mostly. For them they just need to learn something that can help them protect themselves or beat someone up or whatever the case may be. I don't think they have any business learning a martial art at all, but no worries as most of them probably wouldn't have the patience or want to stick to it since they would want quick results.

Sopheria April 30th, 2016 11:35 PM

I 100% support kids learning martial arts and I think everyone could benefit from it. When I have kids of my own I'll certainly be putting them through martial arts programs. Not only do they teach fighting and self-defense, but they also build confidence, character, and help them learn to push their limits and go beyond what they believe they're capable of. Those are all things that it'd be a shame to deprive a child of.

As for

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight shadow (Post 9216814)
should we be teaching children how to fight from an early age? Can they handle the responsibility of learning techniques that could harm or even kill another person?

That's for the individual parents to decide, they know their children better than anyone else, so there's no reason anyone but them should be deciding whether or not their child is capable of handling martial arts responsibly. I don't know the numbers, but I don't think kids irresponsibly using martial arts to harm people is a common thing, at least not nearly common enough to warrant a mass ban.

Midnight shadow May 1st, 2016 8:26 AM

Since we're on the topic of child martial arts, take a look at the following article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2612247/Meet-children-paid-fight-Inside-dangerous-world-Muay-Thai-boys-young-SEVEN-risk-permanent-brain-damage-support-poverty-stricken-parents.html

Setting aside the obvious issues regarding effectively child slavery, having young children take part in an art as vicious and deadly as Muay Thai seems very wrong to me. What do you guys think about this?

Crizzle May 1st, 2016 7:39 PM

We'll some (a lot) of people are teaching their kids how to use guns(not just pistols, some are teaching their kids to shoot Uzis and shotguns at young ages.
Martial arts can be deadly but for most children, they aren't old enough or strong enough to use them effectively.
Ideally, parents would just let their kids be kids. No need to teach them violent techniques as they won't be able to effectively utilize them in serious self defense situations until much later on.
But people want a (false) sense of security with their kids so the introduce their kids to the world of violence at an early age with (futile) hopes of protecting them.

ShinyUmbreon189 May 2nd, 2016 4:15 PM

Definitely. Martial arts will teach the children to respect the arts and not to abuse the arts. It would also teach them self defense and in martial arts they teach you how to properly use force without injuring someone, recklessness using martial arts could potentially kill someone. But it really comes down to how mature the child is.

illumine May 3rd, 2016 12:41 PM

A significant problem here might be for the martial arts themselves. In lieu of any particular views of the world, etc., they increasingly are forced into becoming fairly simplistic, immediate and similar modes, essentially just various practice activities coagulated into one 'art,' which of course tends towards sameness. Their 'ethical heart' is increasingly not distinguished significantly from, 'Sit in a corner and be quiet for 10 minutes,' and increasingly passive in response to Western cultures. They are not expected to focus much on explaining things or such with children, and hence have to ultimately leave their motivation and so on aside in favour of apparent results. This can obviously lead in many situations to being primarily a spectacle, or a ceremonial thing, and the eschewing of motivation and the considerations behind whatever's left can lead to a tendency towards merely acting without consideration, or over-extending and acting out despite lack of consideration. This might be part of why such martial arts might have been popular in the West in some ways, despite their cultural origin being significantly different, and why they might still be associated with Western stereotypes of acting 'hard' - often associated with drug culture, xenophobia, etc. - and so on while they would be in nature quite a departure from this.

Of course, the martial arts had a brief time as an instrument of war, etc., and while they are generally significantly watered-down and diluted, this does qualify any absolute identification between them and mere restriction to 'self defence.' As Marx said, a thing is, "an assemblage of many properties, and may therefore be of use in various ways," this also applying in some ways to commodified and dilute 'martial arts.' It might be said that martial arts only retained their integrity in part due to their association with Asian states, and generally speaking being subjected to people-pleasing in principle is likely to lead to dilution of their central themes after this, into something which is in essence non-violent.

Quote:

Sadly, the backward teaching to today's generation is showing how if you are being assaulted you should just be assaulted.
Generally, religions such as Christianity have led away from people trying to dissuade personal harm primarily, rather focussing on an overall religious scenario. If martial arts do not generally wish to challenge these beliefs, and indeed they are not generally inclined towards developed theology on the part of practitioners or instructors, they should perhaps keep to their place, whichever place that may happen to be.

Quote:

This seems to be the main reason why people take up a Martial Art and I get that you want to be able to defend yourself on the street, but this to me can very easily turn into the "i want to be able to beat someone to a pulp" syndrome (patent waiting).
Eh, people aren't going to get much emotional gratification out of learning something just because it might, possibly, help them - or end up with them getting beaten up, as after all it does welcome all practitioners who can act likable for a brief time, including people who might cause them problems - at a situation which might, possibly, come up, although of course it might not. Generally speaking, they have to draw on more visible stimuli to convince people that such things are not only distant hypotheticals, but visible 'results,' and hence as you note they might have a tendency towards more underhanded violence and social pressure, along with their mostly pacifistic, conservative nature, although this might further stymie their progression. They very easily slipped into things which, though socially passive, were not merely responsive.

Otherwise they're merely teaching a thing and relying on others to make it at all worthwhile, which seems to also come with tacit support or tolerance of these.

Xertified May 4th, 2016 5:59 AM

Alright there are two options,

1. Parents always care about there child's safety so they let the kids have martial arts.

2. Parents knows that there child are not capable of fighting so no.

Midnight shadow May 4th, 2016 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega (Post 9226513)
Alright there are two options,

1. Parents always care about there child's safety so they let the kids have martial arts.

2. Parents knows that there child are not capable of fighting so no.

I'm confused by both of those statements. In my experience the parents that don't allow their children to learn Martial Arts are the over-protective ones who will do anything to keep their little darling out of harms way, even in a training environment. As for the second statement, surely if a parent knows their child isn't capable of fighting then there would be less risks for them learning a Martial Art, as they are less likely to use it to start random fights.

Megan May 4th, 2016 11:48 AM

I think it's a good way for them to learn how to defend themselves, but it also helps them building up more self-confidence, which is especially important for those that don't have much of it in the first place. Sadly, society becomes more and more demanding of future generations and if you don't have the self-confidence to actually survive in that environment, then good luck.

Midnight shadow May 5th, 2016 6:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illumine (Post 9225764)
A significant problem here might be for the martial arts themselves. In lieu of any particular views of the world, etc., they increasingly are forced into becoming fairly simplistic, immediate and similar modes, essentially just various practice activities coagulated into one 'art,' which of course tends towards sameness. Their 'ethical heart' is increasingly not distinguished significantly from, 'Sit in a corner and be quiet for 10 minutes,' and increasingly passive in response to Western cultures. They are not expected to focus much on explaining things or such with children, and hence have to ultimately leave their motivation and so on aside in favour of apparent results. This can obviously lead in many situations to being primarily a spectacle, or a ceremonial thing, and the eschewing of motivation and the considerations behind whatever's left can lead to a tendency towards merely acting without consideration, or over-extending and acting out despite lack of consideration. This might be part of why such martial arts might have been popular in the West in some ways, despite their cultural origin being significantly different, and why they might still be associated with Western stereotypes of acting 'hard' - often associated with drug culture, xenophobia, etc. - and so on while they would be in nature quite a departure from this.

Of course, the martial arts had a brief time as an instrument of war, etc., and while they are generally significantly watered-down and diluted, this does qualify any absolute identification between them and mere restriction to 'self defence.' As Marx said, a thing is, "an assemblage of many properties, and may therefore be of use in various ways," this also applying in some ways to commodified and dilute 'martial arts.' It might be said that martial arts only retained their integrity in part due to their association with Asian states, and generally speaking being subjected to people-pleasing in principle is likely to lead to dilution of their central themes after this, into something which is in essence non-violent.

Generally, religions such as Christianity have led away from people trying to dissuade personal harm primarily, rather focussing on an overall religious scenario. If martial arts do not generally wish to challenge these beliefs, and indeed they are not generally inclined towards developed theology on the part of practitioners or instructors, they should perhaps keep to their place, whichever place that may happen to be.

Eh, people aren't going to get much emotional gratification out of learning something just because it might, possibly, help them - or end up with them getting beaten up, as after all it does welcome all practitioners who can act likable for a brief time, including people who might cause them problems - at a situation which might, possibly, come up, although of course it might not. Generally speaking, they have to draw on more visible stimuli to convince people that such things are not only distant hypotheticals, but visible 'results,' and hence as you note they might have a tendency towards more underhanded violence and social pressure, along with their mostly pacifistic, conservative nature, although this might further stymie their progression. They very easily slipped into things which, though socially passive, were not merely responsive.

Otherwise they're merely teaching a thing and relying on others to make it at all worthwhile, which seems to also come with tacit support or tolerance of these.

You bring up some good points. First of all one of the issues I've noticed observing the various Martial Arts clubs where I work is they focus almost entirely on forms and sparring, which appeals more to the younger participants. The problem with this approach is they hardly do any body conditioning so they can do the forms and the techniques, but there's no strength or stamina behind it. So in trying to keep the children interested, they are giving them that false sense of security, since in a fight, if your body isn't strong enough, the techniques are worthless.

Elysieum May 5th, 2016 10:52 PM

I don't see a great threat in children learning martial arts. I remember seeing some of my friends spar at their training Dojo place when we were younger. Admittedly, I found the whole thing to be more of a giggle than anything else. I do recall the rather strong sense of ritual that forms part of it. There was a lot of bowing and displays of respect before and after every round.

If there is a danger of a kid using his or her martial arts skills to harm someone else intentionally, then they would have probably done so without the formal training too. For the most part, I think young ones probably view and participate in martial arts like any other sport.


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