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-   -   Sun/Moon signal the sad death of Pokémon as we know it (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=380007)

Cerberus87 October 7th, 2016 7:00 PM

Sun/Moon signal the sad death of Pokémon as we know it
 
There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.

For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.

Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.

Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.

And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.

My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

clbgolden October 7th, 2016 7:15 PM

So, changing up the formula just a little bit and adding creative new additions to the games mean Pokémon is dying?

... Seriously?

Also, the Mega Evolution timeline doesn't make the old games "useless". Presumably, all the stuff that happened then still happened in the Mega timeline.

mew_nani October 7th, 2016 7:32 PM

....Huh? ~_~

There's been a split in the Pokemon timeline much further back than Gen VI: all the way back in Gen III the Pokemon timeline was split into two branches when Firered and Leafgreen came out and retconed Gen I. There's three different timelines; one that includes the games from Gen I and II, one that includes Gen III, IV, and V, and one that includes Gen VI and VII. This isn't even going into split versions having separate timelines of their own.

More importantly though why are you outright dissing the game when it's not even out yet? Yeah Gen VI wasn't thought out at all. Yeah Gen VI messed things up chronologically and introduced elements that didn't make much sense and weren't explained. But how do you know Sun and Moon are just as bad if not worse just because they include features you don't like? Alola Forms aren't a replacement for older Pokemon; it's basically region variants that have already shown up in other places that people have wanted for a while. The Ultra Beasts aren't bad either as in PMD there's at least two major enemies that aren't Pokemon and can't be befriended. But most importantly we don't really know how all these features will function in a game that hasn't been released yet and that we know little about. You're standing on the church tower with a big megaphone yelling

"POKEMON IS RUINED FOREVER! THEY JUMPED THE SHARPEDO FOR SURE THIS TIME!!!"

when you didn't even give the games a proper chance yet. Wait until they're released, play through them, and after we know what lore changes they bring to the table THEN we can decide if they're as bad as Gen VI or not. To be honest I'm not sure why you're upset over Mega Evolution being partially phased out; wasn't it gamebreaking anyways?

Mister Coffee October 7th, 2016 8:03 PM

I'm sorry dude, I can understand that you are personally against the changes, because change is scary, but it doesn't mean that pokemon is dying.

First of all, your statement about the timelines is completely misinformed.
Quote:

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it.
If you have ever played R/S/E, not OR/AS specifically, you would know that the timeline of Hoenn in the original generation 3 games takes place three years before Generation 1 and 2. They didn't suddenly invent this background info specifically for Generation 6's remakes. Check the facts.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Generation_III

Quote:

From Bulbapedia: "Details in the Hoenn- and Kanto-based games hint that the storyline of Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald is contemporaneous with that of FireRed and LeafGreen (and due to this, contemporaneous with Generation I as well), placing Generation III three years before Generation II and Generation IV, themselves contemporaneous."
Next, Pokemon's an RPG with many borrowed RPG elements from many different games and other sources of media. They're not trying to be anything other than pokemon games. The specific formula of badge collecting and beating the elite four is not all and everything that pokemon is built around. It's a complex monster raising, team building, competetive battling, collecting and trading game. These games have constantly grown changed HEAVILY in every single game. In generation 2 they introduced breeding, babies, and stat manipulation. That's a DRASTIC change to the formula compared to what we had in the original generation 1 games. Generation 3 gave us Natures, Abilities, and Qualities (Contest Stats). Once again, SERIOUS changes. This goes on and on with every single new generation, all of these changes are constantly affecting pokemon of previous games and giving them new growth by expanding in depth of ways to manipulate their growth, whether it's adding new item evolutions, new regional evolutions, or even Mega evolutions, it's all pokemon. The franchise is constantly growing as time moves on and we move into more powerful and more capable technology.

Alola forms are the next big change! Yes, we already know for a fact that GF has no understanding of Meta game, nor do they care in the slightest about it, but that lack of not caring does not mean that the addition of Alola forms is not natural to the lore of overall pokemon growth. Pokemon have shown to change based on the are of the region that they are in. My favorite example of this is Arbok. Arbok has a different neck pattern in every single new region.


Arbok is proof that Game Freak has always (since at least generation 2 anyways) wanted to do regional changed pokemon who have adapted to various different climates and Eco systems. I will admit, that I am a little sad that these Alola forms will be replacing their original formed pokemon most likely at a competitive value, but as I explained, Game Freak has proven to not care about balance in Meta.
Though I can not assert enough, that all of this at a lore perspective and following the pokemon formula, it really does make sense as an addition to the pokemon franchise.

As for the concept that Mega's will be completely forgotten. This is just not true. If they were intending to throw away the mechanic, than we would not have seen its return in the most recent revealed preview. It's very apparent that we'll not be seeing much Mega Evolution progress in these new games, but it is obvious that they will be present in the games and will be accessible in post game.
I also must repeat what I said previously. GAME FREAK DOES NOT CARE ABOUT COMPETITIVE, they have absolutely no influence in what happens at VGC's. They just don't care. They have no say as to whether Mega Evolution should be phased out or not. Therefore since there is no connection that means that the lack of using Megas in competitive has no influence on anything that might be occurring in the current game nor the later games.

Overall the pokemon games are still pokemon games, and part of being a pokemon game is being in a constant form of change. Overall it's about the pokemon, and with each generation we have seen nothing but growth and expansion within the pokemon themselves.

If you decided that you have grown out of pokemon games or are just plain stuck in a pit of Nostalgia, that's on you, not Game Freak.

Nah October 7th, 2016 8:13 PM

I'm not getting involved in this but Cerberus I hope you were prepared for an overwhelmingly negative response to this thread of yours

BettyNewbie October 7th, 2016 9:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9440178)
There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.

For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.

Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.

Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.

And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.

My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

Couldn't have said it better, myself. {:3}

Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

mew_nani October 7th, 2016 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9440296)
Couldn't have said it better, myself. {:3}

Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Reinventing... what? Is the inclusion of Gyms and a Pokemon League and an evil team so big a part of Pokemon that it defines the entire thing, let alone having outside context enemies and regional variants of Pokemon? The whole reason sales are down to begin with is that traditional Pokemon games are so unwavering from this formula that they're becoming repetitive and bland. What's so bad about a Pokemon game that doesn't have gyms? You're still catching mons and filling up a Pokedex and trashing an evil team or two. Heck I'd personally love a Pokemon game that functioned a bit more like a traditional RPG, which is what X and Y were going for and failed to achieve in favor of just being a generic copy-paste of Gen IV not including the lore. Imagine a game that takes place when AZ was king, or a game where you journey around in ancient Johto or Sinnoh. Those games wouldn't have the same core formula either but is that a bad thing necessarily? Trying to enforce the notion that Pokemon absolutely has to follow the same generic pattern is like trying to enforce the idea that all Mario games should be platformers that center around rescuing Peach from Bowser.

Bounsweet October 7th, 2016 10:47 PM

"On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore."
^ Just wanted to point out that Raichu was used by the VGC 2016 Champion and that it is very popular in the current meta, so moot point.

Also the banning of megas in the next format is irrelevant to whether or not developers are interested in the mechanic, and has entirely to do with how balancing works. Currently, megas dominate the current meta to the point where it's impossible to have any form of serious team diversity. The changes in the format every year are intended to help stabilize and update it. Nothing to do with "dead mechanics" or whatever.

They know damn well what they are doing, and they're doing it well as I and tons upon tons of people who are excited for SM think. Mechanics come and go in Pokemon all the time. Each gen loses something that was introduced, Pokemon has always been like this with every single generation except for perhaps Gen I - III which consisted of solid upgrading. As shown in the latest news trailer however, these things do tend to resurface, since we're basically getting Join Avenue 2.0 in SM.

Hikamaru October 7th, 2016 11:04 PM

Angelica's point is one I agree with. I actually don't mind the drastic changes Sun & Moon are making, but like said, not everyone likes a certain Pokemon game.

We're only a month out from release and we have learned of a lot of new features, but also we've been having a lot of other stuff kept secret. Like Angelica said, we don't know much else at this stage apart from the new Pokemon, the Alola Forms and some of the new features. Heck, we don't even know any cities, towns or routes in Alola yet either!

CidHazard October 8th, 2016 12:02 AM

Pokemon, in essence is an RPG where you raise and catch different monster to fight for you. The structure of the story and the world/Level design is just a bonus really... You're not going into a pokemon game for a mind blowing story, you're playing it to catch and battle with your favorite mons. The game is also built to be fairly easy to understand, but has a certain level of depth so both casual and hardcore players can enjoy the game...

The story/level structure of Sun and Moon is different yes, but is that such really such a bad thing. Diverging from the series 20 year old formula is the best thing GF can do to old fans who've grown tired of...

battle a couple of gyms -> meet evil organization -> battle a couple more gyms -> catch the legendary pokemon on the cover of the game -> beat the evil organization -> battle some more gym -> fight the elite four -> battle and beat the champion -> Play endless late game content.

You say their not paying homage to the old games... and yet the Alolan forms and Mega's (Diancie is the only gen 6 pokemon to get a mega) are here to celebrate old-gen Pokemon... Also, GF had never cared for creating a meta game for pokemon (Look at the way they give Pokemon abilities, their more focused on giving them abilities that match their character/personality/biology/mythology). VGC is owned by the Pokemon Company yes, but they have no input to the creation of the Pokemon games. The best they can do to influence the meta is banning Pokemon.

Lack of consistency? gen 1-5 had the same exact structure just new mons.

Add to the fact that we haven't even played the full game or even the demo... It kind of looks like your hating Sun and Moon for being 'new' or different. It's to early to judge...

I can definitely see where your coming from. Change is scary and there is a lot of changes in the upcoming Sun and Moon. But as always we should try to keep an open mind - so we don't ruin the experience for ourselves.

Candy October 8th, 2016 12:24 AM

I like how you're going with this, but let me give a nice reminder on how XY is basically pandering to the nostalgia of many fans.

Kanto Starters? Check, and give them Megas as a bonus. Santalune Forest? It's just a 3D Viridian Forest. Snorlax blocking the path and you need a Pokeflute? Yeah got that covered. And how it was received by the longing fans? Quite negatively. Sure the features were great and all but overall, the story's too bland, it felt too easy and you really feel the whole "yeah we just want to get a 3DS Pokemon game out" kind of vibe.

The fans want something that feels fresher than what we've been playing for the past 20 years. In essence, there's still Gyms in the form of Trials, there's an evil organization, and you travel the world catching and raising Pokemon to fight. Isn't that what Pokemon's main identity is based on? It's not different from the core formula.

just be glad they didn't completely remove the Megas, unlike some things like the Wonder Launcher (anyone remembered that?) and the BATTLE FREAKING FRONTIER. Sure they won't be the main focus of the game since that was last gen's new special feature, so this gen they'll be focusing on the Z-Moves and the Alolan forms, because they're the ones that are new. Megas might get touched upon, but it'll be quite minor.

Also tell me, homage? Do we seriously have to include homage to old games in the new games? Pretty sure we got nearly all the differing wireless features introduced so far packed into one area, and we even got a Pokemon-Snap-esque feature thanks to all the fans clamoring for a Snap remake/sequel. Oh, and how all the Alolan mons are Gen 1 mons? And how Mimikyu is just something dressed up as a Pikachu? idk, be the judge.

Salzorrah October 8th, 2016 12:45 AM

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate for just a bit here, and agree that banning Megas in VGC is a stupid move tbh. I mean, they did make it a big deal back in Gen 6, but now, it's pretty much obsolete and stuff, like they're trying to forget they exist, and they just added them in S&M so fans wouldnt complain as much.

This does bring me to the next point, the future of Pokemon. When Gen 8 rolls around, what happens to the Alola Forms? They're called Alola forms for a reason. Would that indicate those forms be obsolete in the future?

Most of what Cerebrus said, I generally disagree, but he did bring up an interesting point regarding Megas tho.

KillerTyphlosion October 8th, 2016 2:01 AM

People complaining about VGC banning mega's is stupid. We will probably not be able to use lots of the legendaries of previous gens, because they will be uncatchable in Sun and Moon. Remember when XY came out. All pre gen 6 pokémon were banned from VGC. A lot of the popular pokémon in gen 5 couldn't be used because you couldn't catch them in XY or because the lack of move tutors some were garbage. In VGC 2018 we will probably see mega's again and we will be able to use transferred Pokémon.

kingdenas October 8th, 2016 2:24 AM

So you're hating on these games because they changed the formula? Just because GF created new features, and changed old ones, you say the Pokémon Games are ruined? Sincerily, I was so sick and tired of the whole "Battle Gyms - defeat evil team - capture legend - battle gyms - battle Elite Four - Battle Champion - End" formula. I really love they made Alola unique.. Since the region it's based on Hawaii, I think the concept of Trials really suit the region. Plus, it's just a minor change.... You still progress through the game while doing Trials (=Gyms), you still battle the evil Team (= Team Skull and/or Aether Foundation), you still explore the region and learn about its Lore (= connection to the Legendaries), and most importantly, you still catch Pokémon and use them on your team, growing stronger while you progress through the game (=Pokémon Games).

I don't know why you're judging the book by its cover here.... Sun and Moon haven't come out yet, so we can't say if they're good or not, and changing the formula isn't what makes the game bad...

blue October 8th, 2016 2:53 AM

Honestly? I don't know how you can judge a game that hasn't even been released yet. It's fine that you have your own opinion and that you're not happy with changes at this stage, but at least give these games a chance before casting judgement.

My personal opinion is that these games are looking great! I love how they've changed the formula, by not doing so can make the franchise start to feel a little stale after seven generations. It's not like these games are a far cry from XY/ORAS or earlier generations, the core mechanics still pretty much remain intact. We will still be travelling around a new region, capturing Pokemon, fighting a villainous team and so on. Although there are some bigger changes coming into play, I wouldn't say they signal the end of the franchise by any means necessary. I completely welcome these changes and I don't think I've been this hyped for Pokemon games in years tbh.

CidHazard October 8th, 2016 3:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salzorrah (Post 9440418)
I'm gonna be the devil's advocate for just a bit here, and agree that banning Megas in VGC is a stupid move tbh. I mean, they did make it a big deal back in Gen 6, but now, it's pretty much obsolete and stuff, like they're trying to forget they exist, and they just added them in S&M so fans wouldnt complain as much.

I don't think Game freak would just axe the Mega forms after gen 6... Realistically, the assets are already there; Just taking them out would be a waste of used development time. Mega evolution isn't going anywhere, they're just focusing on a different mechanics right now; Mainly Alola forms and The Z moves - That's why I believe there will not be any new mega evolution in this new game.

Again VGC has no bearing on the Pokemon GF creates or have any influence in any new pokemon. They just set up and manage the huge Pokemon Tournaments and just make a standard set of tournament rules. VGC tournament rules changes every year to spice things up (Changing it from singles to doubles or mega rayquaza and the two primals being allowed for vgc 2016) - They may ban the use of megas on 2017 but put them back in 2018. It's not obsolete or forgotten their just shifting their focus (I'm honestly sick of seeing mega kangaskan and the primals in tournaments so this is a rather refreshing change for me).

Lunar October 8th, 2016 5:07 AM

I can see the logic of some of the stuff you're saying here but I really don't think we can give the games hate before they've even come out. And imo the good far outweighs the bad as far as Sun and Moon are concerned.

Desert Stream~ October 8th, 2016 5:43 AM

We've already been confirmed pokemon games for the NX, so no, pokemon isn't dying out anytime soon.
As for megas, I'm guessing it's because they are overpowered (like kangaskhan) or you just won't be able to get the stones yet.
And alolan forms? Based on what we've seen, it looks like they evolve with stones, so in gen 8, we just need to find an ice stone to get alolan Ninetales, then breed to get alolan vulpix.
And just because we're not in alola doesn't mean there can't be new forms. If we do get that Sinnoh remake, there could very well be Sinnoh forms.

Pinkie-Dawn October 8th, 2016 11:03 AM

Pokémon is a JRPGs, and with JRPGs, gamers mostly care for deeper storylines, which is why games like Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Xenogear, Mother 3, and Persona 3 were highly acclaimed by critics and fans alike. But according to a fellow friend of mine from Disquis, the story is the least interesting part of Pokémon, because the main focus is just trying to catch all Pokémon, which gets more and more difficult with new Pokémon introduced.

I'll just link my article on Disquis discussing the debate between fans who want more single player experience vs. fans who want a better competitive experience, so I won't have to copy/paste what I said from that thread.

I would say this though, about how reading these replies made me sad about people complain about the Pokémon formula being stale and repetitive yet complain about the rest of Nintendo's games for deriving from their formulas. *coughZeldacough*

clbgolden October 8th, 2016 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9440967)
I would say this though, about how reading these replies made me sad about people complain about the Pokémon formula being stale and repetitive yet complain about the rest of Nintendo's games for deriving from their formulas. *coughZeldacough*

Hey, don't group me with those guys, I like the changes made for Zelda BotW.

... Then again, I never really found the Pokémon formula "stale" either.

Ducolamia October 8th, 2016 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9440178)
There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.

For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.

Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.

Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.

And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.

My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

Sigh* Okay, you are entitled to your opinion, but as a Pokemon fan, I'd like to give you some insight on my opinion as well. Please don't take this as an insult, but it's important that I note some things about what you said:

First off, "There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it."

Um..no. First off, the formula should've been changed by gen 4. The formula is not well-structured. In theory it is a good idea, but the only reason it worked was because it was new and something not done yet. Outside of theory, the execution has been a bit lackluster to say the least. You are supposed to tell me that a little kid is supposed to be responsible for taking care of a whole town? I understand that not all gym leaders are little kids and I also know that an 11 year-old kid going on a journey is stupid enough( I can get by it for the sake of the game), but at least with the trial Captains, they have to be approved by some SYSTEM to be a Captain. In generation 4, Riley, a partner trainer, states that the League invited him to be a part of the E4, but he declined! What is preventing any idiot from joining the league for the sake of some evil plan or beating the Champion for some evil plan. Oh wait, it didn't stop N and Team Plasma. Not to mention that after you become the champion, that you don't even do anything champion related. You just kinda wander around doing nothing but battling harder trainers. You don't even get to battle possible Champion candidates even though YOU have the title. The original Red and Green is even worse with this as after beating the game, there is nothing to do, but complete the Pokedex, which is a pain if you don't have friends. This is "well-structured"? This is "consistent"? Even in Pokemon land this makes little sense.

As for lore, have you even looked at the Pokedex? Sheninja is supposed to suck out the soul of people who look at it from behind, but in battle, you see it from behind ALL THE TIME. In Pokemon Fire Red, a research team supposedly found remnants of Mew in South America....you know... a country that should not exist in the Pokemon World because it was never once established (in the games) that the continents we know exist in Pokemon? There are hundreds of plotholes in Pokemon like this, but I can't go over them in such little time, so here's a link to one of the many videos that point this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PH-hhKNkNs

"where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it."

Okay, I admit that Pokemon has become more complicated than it's roots, but that doesn't make it a bad thing. Pokemon needs to grow for the sake of getting a bigger audience. It wouldn't be here today if Pokemon didn't try to expand. I understand that it could be a bit jarring, but you should at least give it a chance.

"For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements."

No...Pokemon, the creatures you battle with, is what made Pokemon, "Pokemon" the battles, are what make Pokemon "Pokemon". I guess your definition of what makes Pokemon is different than mine, but in some sort of stretch, In media, the anime is what forms people's perception of Pokemon. You don't necessarily need the gym battles and E4 to make a pokemon game. That's why Pokemon Colosseum and XD exist as a well as the Mystery Dungeon series and Conquest. I will agree that you do know what to expect in Pokemon and that additions to the lore are good, but that's the problem, the meat of the issue: Pokemon has had the same formula for 20 years. I know if it's not broken, don't fix it, but the gym leader/E4/Champion system is broken. You can easily beat one gym leader( with very few exceptions) with one Pokemon. Even as a kid, I knew that you could do that. As a result, the challenge becomes non-existent. I know that Pokemon is geared towards kids, but kids are not stupid and can easily figure out the stuff I did. Also:

"Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements."

This line confuses me. Are you trying to say that lore was/is only speculation and that it should stay that way? What?( no, seriously, please correct me on this). What makes gen 7 negate from other generations? Please tell me. I haven't once seen gen 7 say that Mewtwo doesn't exist or some sort of shit like that. In ORAS, they did change a bunch of stuff including parts of the lore, but that was only for THEIR LEGENDARIES, NO ONE ESLE. How does Groudon and Kyorge affect anything from before but the original games or Ruby or Sapphire? Why should Gamefreak not try to expand on the lore? How is that a bad thing?

"Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless."

First of all, the multiple timeline story has been blown way out of proportion. It is NOT CANON Zinnia implied it could be canon. It's just that every person and their mother saw what she said and took it as fact when in reality it's just speculation. Say what you want, but that the truth. For the sake of the argument, if it is canon, who cares if it broke the timeline in 2? It's half-ass, but at least there was some semblance of trying to explain why Mega evolution exists and why we haven't seen it yet. Plus, the theory never stated that the past gens stories did not happen. All the theory is, is that there are two timelines. That's it. The rest is just speculation. Also, how are the old games worthless? ORAS was simply a remake of the original games. If they really wanted to make it worthless they would never reference the old games ever in any way, shape, or form, which they have done. As for Megas...I'll get to that in a moment.

"Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another."

This probably ticks me off the most in my opinion. What is wrong with trying something different that is good for the sake of the franchise. Please tell me. Because all I see is someone complaining that the franchise is changing and not giving any solutions on how it could change for the better. "Trials" may be common in other rpgs, but keep in mind we barely have any side quests in Pokemon that don't include trading or a legendary Pokemon involved. Plus, we don't even know how they will work( not in the order-sense is what I mean). As for Alolan forms, they do not go against Pokemon lore, it supports it. Pokemon are the "animals" of the world in the games. It has been proven in-game that Pokemon of all shapes and sizes can adapt to the environment and change form/colour/type. Why should Eevee be the only Pokemon to change? In reality, Eevee is not special by any means. In fact, because of evolution, Eevee is pretty normal in the world, but I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that animals adapting is normal. Also, how do these forms make the original Pokemon obsolete? I'm still going to love my regular Vulpix like many other people. Changing the stats/ appearance of these Pokemon won't change that fact, in fact, it makes people love them more because they have a new variety that they wouldn't have had as their own type. Plus, Gamefreak is trying to give a new spin to old Pokemon that need it. The only time I heard of people talking about Marowak was the whole Cubone's mother thing. Now, people might actually get invested and use a Marowak. It might not be the original, but that it their choice.

"Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another."

First off, you are once again believing speculation to be fact. We don't know if ultra beast are uncatchable. I even checked the offical Pokemon site and Serebii.com. It doesn't say that they are not cathable. All the sites say are that they could pose a threat to humans/pokemon implying they are not Pokemon. Also, what? Ultra Beast are not Pokemon from what we know so far and you are confusing me with, "Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with" Please explain.

"And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."

Seriously calling new games a trainwreck before they come out? Nice. Also, Megas should be banned for tournaments. Say what you will, but in my opinion, Megas are too Op and people probably don't want to see the same set of Mega Kangaskan every time they battle someone in tournaments. It's not that they aren't interested in making new ones. For a game company, you are right, it makes no sense to make almost 50 new designs and buffs for Pokemon and not use them, but have you ever thought that they just don't want the focus on Megas this gen? It may seem odd, but with the whole new influx of Pokemon and Alolan forms maybe Pokemon doesn't want Megas to take up all the spotlight. You can still obtain them with the new Pokemon Wifi thing( can't remember at the moment) in Sun and Moon with BP and before you complain, we don't know how hard it will be to obtain BP in SuMo and with Pokemon Bank it's super easy to grind for BP.

"This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. "

It's not that inconsistent really. I admit, I was skeptical on whether Megas would return, but I knew that couldn't be the case as they are so popular. If there is one thing I think we can both agree on it's that, Pokemon Company likes getting money. The reason we got Ash-Greninja is because it is so damn popular. Megas are way too popular/profitable to just be gone next gen. They may not make new ones for this gen as they want to focus on other stuff than Megas, but that is Pokemon Company's choice. (I already mentioned my thoughts on the timeline above so no comment here).

"It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."

First of all, Pokemon is taking a new direction because there is a new director named Shigeru Ohmori. He has very different plans for Sun and Moon and for more thoughts here's a link:

http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/ohmori/

I can't speak for Pokemon Company but I'm sure that they know what they are doing(unlike X and Y which just felt rushed, but that's a conversation for another day) This isn't like Gen 6 when it was the first time Pokemon was using 3d models and graphics, this game clearly has more experienced people working with the franchise finding out what works and what doesn't.

"This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."

There are certain features that don't stay with each gen like the Pokenav/Poketch but those are relatively small and don't affect the gameplay. I get the concern with Z moves, but let's put this into perspective. Alola is a remote tropical island. If Z-crystals are certain special crystals that can only be found in Alola, I feel that would make the most sense. Once again, this is specultion and for all that happens they could be gone in gen 8, but I doubt it. Z-moves affect the gameplay severely. Now, you have to worry about your opponent using a Z-move. They wouldn't drop it unless it wasn't popular or didn't help anything.

"My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

Sorry to break this to you, but as I stated before, Pokemon has always been inconsistent. The reason why it gets away with it is because there is much more to Pokemon than it being inconsistent. Because people can enjoy the game for what it is, it doesn't matter if Pokemon is somewhat inconsistent. All people care about is that the game can be good DESPITE it's inconsistencies. Are there things that most likely will stay like Mega Evolutions? Yeah, but I can't predict the future, just like no one else can. As much as people try, Pokemon is pretty hard to track down on trends. I can't even think about what they might do next. However, it's best not to judge the worse of the franchise just because it seems different. Please tell me, what do you want in a Pokemon game? From what you've written you clearly have a distaste for Pokemon SuMo right now. So....what do you want then? What do want changed? Please tell me so I can understand because right now, I don't know what fans like you want.

"We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games."

True and False. Yes, I buy Pokemon games because I want to play Pokemon, but on the other hand no... I buy Pokemon games because of the Pokemon/features. I don't just buy it because it has the formula, if I did, then I wouldn't try the spinoffs like many other people. People, including me, buy Pokemon games for fun. If Pokemon Sun and Moon didn't look to be fun, I would not have any interest in it. I do have interest because Pokemon is trying something outside it's comfort zone and I'm curious to see how it is. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, Pokemon learns not to do it again. However, I need to stress that we don't know how these games are going to be like yet, so it's best not to be extremely negative about it. ( Not to say you aren't allowed to have an opinion, you have every right to one, this is just how I feel--in other words my opinion).

"It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected."

Wait...so you are aware that Pokemon is getting stale? I'm confused now. You stated earlier:

"For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon".

So, I assumed that you probably thought that the new changes to Pokemon could be bad, but now they aren't? What? I probably stated this too much already but once again, please explain.

How is Pokemon transforming into something it's not? As long as it is under the Pokemon label it is Pokemon. You can believe otherwise and have every right to, but that's how it is. Also, Pokemon Company can do whatever they want for their 20th Anniversary games. There's no set-in stone about what they have to do. If they want to change the formula and add references in honor of the 20th Anniversary, they have every right to do it. The game is still going to sell as long as there isn't any huge bug or something like that. Lastly,Pokemon is not neglecting the older games, that is a lie. Pokemon has always had some sort of reference to older games.

Gen 2 is practically an entire homage to gen 1, with almost everything Kanto put into it.

Gen 3 has Pikachu and the first bug Pokemon found in the same forest. Gen 3 also has post-game Safari zone with Gen 2 Pokemon in it.

Gen 4 has an Eevee given out to you and the early bug pokemon being from Gen 3( Wurmple). In Platinum, they added more Gen 2 Pokemon such as Houndour.

In the recent games, Gen 6, the game with arguably the most references to gen 1, you got:

-The first forest made up of the same layout as Viridian Forest, including the first bug Pokemon in the game, a rare encounter of Pikachu, and being a lush forest.

- You get the choose the KANTO STARTERS SPECIFICALLY.

- The KANTO STARTERS also get Mega Evolutions and Charizard gets 2.

- You get to capture the KANTO LEGENDARIES post-game

- There is a cave in which you get to capture Mewtwo, a Pokemon that you could also capture in the original Red and Green...in Cerulean Cave.

- Mewtwo gets 2 Mega Evolutions

and finally, a majority of non-Kalos Pokemon in Gen 6 are from Kanto.

In Gen 7 we also got Kanto Pokemon getting Alola forms( we don't know if it's exclusive yet, but who knows at this point) and Pokemon Snap 2.0

I'm pretty sure Pokemon wouldn't have put any of these references in if they didn't care about the older games. They don't have to put in something akin to, " Red exists in Kanto and he's really strong" just to prove that they care about the other games. I think the fact they went out of there way to make it clear that they love Kanto/any previous gen is more than enough proof that they haven't forgotten anything on purpose.

Cura October 8th, 2016 12:31 PM

I love threads like these ones, its just the clear hop onto the bandwagon of hate and salt because someone can't just realize things change can become different overtime.

Keiran October 8th, 2016 12:38 PM

You can't review a game without first having played it. Look at what happened to No Man's Sky. Hype bandwagons are never a true prediction of a games' quality.

Cerberus87 October 8th, 2016 12:50 PM

I was successful with my post. The goal was just that, to stir up debate!

Although these are truly my opinions.

Quoting everything is too hard, let's split the points:

1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS).

2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to.

3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game.

4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions.

5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing.

6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P

clbgolden October 8th, 2016 1:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducolamia (Post 9441103)
l
First of all, the multiple timeline story has been blown way out of proportion. It is NOT CANON Zinnia implied it could be canon. It's just that every person and their mother saw what she said and took it as fact when in reality it's just speculation.

Though I agree with the rest of your post, to this day I don't get why people doubt Zinnia's words on another timeline. Do you really think GF put that dialogue in just for the "lulz" or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9441144)
I was successful with my post. The goal was just that, to stir up debate!

Although these are truly my opinions.

Quoting everything is too hard, let's split the points:

1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS).

2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to.

3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game.

4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions.

5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing.

6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P

1. It's never been confirmed, but if RBY and FRLG take place under the same timeline it'd make no sense, even on Pokémon standards.

2. Who's to say some of the Trials can't take place in cities? And technically speaking, N wasn't really the "Champion" in BW, as he only became so just as you entered in.

3. No real argument here, but I hope you can earn enough money to get the games to see if they turn out better than you think.

4. Also no argument here.

5. For starters, they aren't abondoning Mega Evolutions any time soon, so Z-Crystals aren't a replacement. And your examples aren't exactly the best, as Ice/Fairy Ninetails and Normal/Dark Raticate aren't as good defensively. And besides, if the old 'Mons aren't good, then why wouldn't you want to be spruced up?

6. ... Explain.

Altairis October 8th, 2016 2:41 PM

Why is the trend of "Pokemon is ruined" a popular thing to think? Not going to lie I barely read these posts anymore because none of them ever make sense. Why is Pokemon getting ruined because of these changes? Are you guys really that opposed to change?

Rivvon October 8th, 2016 2:56 PM

Why do people think Trial Captains are a big departure for the series? They're just Gym Leader but instead of being inside a Gym they're in the Great Outdoors™. And even then, Pokémon is a series that can literally rest on its own laurels. Just because Trial Captains are a thing in SM doesn't mean we'll never see Gym Leaders again--the next games could just as easily go back to having Gym Leaders.

The only thing I can understand concern over is the lack of new Mega Evolutions because if they keep introducing major new mechanics every gen (Megas in gen 6, regional differences in gen 7, Pokémon games on motorcycles in gen 8) it can become very overwhelming very fast (look at what happened to Yu-Gi-Oh! creating a new summoning method every few years). It would be much better to add to Megas rather than making Z-Moves and Z-Forms and Z-Dances and all that jazz, but at the same time SM are just one set of games. If we get another set of games without new Megas, then I'd start to worry. But for the time being there's no real basis to say that we'll never see new Megas in the future.

Honestly there really isn't any reason to say the changes brought about in SM signal anything about the series changing for good. Alola forms are just form changes, Trial Captains are just Gym Leaders; same things as always, but with a new coat of paint. The only thing really "different" are UB's, but even then they may just turn out to be regular ol' legendary Pokémon but with a new classification.

That being said, if you don't like the way the games are shaping out--then that's fine. There's no way you'll like every single game. And you're certainly not obligated to play a game that doesn't seem to interest you. But I don't think the things SM are doing are inherently going to change the series forever, because nothing is really being changed. At least, not to the extent that people are making it out to be.

NohBuddy2016 October 8th, 2016 3:09 PM

Pokemon will never die cause we live in a world where ignorance is bliss, and die hard lovers of this series will keep on buying their games just cause it is Pokemon.

Not to mention, most people these days will buy games just so they stay in the loop or so they can keep gaming with their friends... cause let's be honest, when was the last time a friend of yours said "hey, can you bring over your Gameboy Color so we can trade pokemon to evolve them?"

Hell, I haven't heard that in years. Now that gaming is becoming more multiplayer oriented, people will keep buying games they don't even like... just so they can actually play the newest game with their friends.

Out of all my friends, I am the only one that still owns and plays a Gameboy Color, thus... I don't game with them much cause I can't afford spending cash on that which isn't a necessity for survival.

clbgolden October 8th, 2016 3:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NohBuddy2016 (Post 9441318)
Pokemon will never die cause we live in a world where ignorance is bliss, and die hard lovers of this series will keep on buying their games just cause it is Pokemon.

Not to mention, most people these days will buy games just so they stay in the loop or so they can keep gaming with their friends... cause let's be honest, when was the last time a friend of yours said "hey, can you bring over your Gameboy Color so we can trade pokemon to evolve them?"

Hell, I haven't heard that in years. Now that gaming is becoming more multiplayer oriented, people will keep buying games they don't even like... just so they can actually play the newest game with their friends.

Out of all my friends, I am the only one that still owns and plays a Gameboy Color, thus... I don't game with them much cause I can't afford spending cash on that which isn't a necessity for survival.

Uh, first off, I doubt many people buy Pokémon just because it's Pokémon. By that logic, then spin-off games would sell a lot more than they do "because it's Pokémon".

Second... Who actually only plays a game just to appeal to their friends? Of course their may be couple few, but you make it sound like a majority.

NohBuddy2016 October 8th, 2016 3:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9441327)
Uh, first off, I doubt many people buy Pokémon just because it's Pokémon. By that logic, then spin-off games would sell a lot more than they do "because it's Pokémon".

Second... Who actually only plays a game just to appeal to their friends? Of course their may be couple few, but you make it sound like a majority.

Well, this logic doesn't apply to just Pokemon. Most games that seem to never end are owned by those kind of people. Saying that because certain games were not sold as much is irrelevant, since most people probably are not that stupid to throw money away just cause in the first place. Maybe 1 in 100 are like this, but not the masses.

RetroPokeman October 8th, 2016 4:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achromatic (Post 9440978)
I'm convinced that at this stage people will pick apart anything Pokémon does simply because they're refusing to let go of childhood nostalgia and can't accept the series is growing and expanding beyond the basic concept. Such a shame, because I believe if they actually gave it 2 seconds of a chance for real they'd actually enjoy it. Not that it's even out yet, haha. :(

I've been around since the start and I'm THRILLED with how things are going. We're not losing what we had, we're getting more with it. I don't see why people are complaining about trial captains. They're just gym leaders with a new name and a fresh coat of paint.

clbgolden October 8th, 2016 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NohBuddy2016 (Post 9441354)
Well, this logic doesn't apply to just Pokemon. Most games that seem to never end are owned by those kind of people. Saying that because certain games were not sold as much is irrelevant, since most people probably are not that stupid to throw money away just cause in the first place. Maybe 1 in 100 are like this, but not the masses.

Well, the way you described it it sounded like you meant the masses.

NohBuddy2016 October 8th, 2016 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9441434)
Well, the way you described it it sounded like you meant the masses.

My apologies for that, not exactly great at wording everything.

Caaethil October 9th, 2016 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9440178)
There was once a series with a well-structured formula

So it's true. You really can't please everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9440296)
Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Wrong. It's alienating you and the core fanbase is embracing it. Frankly, I don't think we'll miss the few players who hate change so much. You've had six generations of the same you can play through again if you'd like.

Dunsparce October 9th, 2016 5:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altairis (Post 9441297)
Why is the trend of "Pokemon is ruined" a popular thing to think? Not going to lie I barely read these posts anymore because none of them ever make sense. Why is Pokemon getting ruined because of these changes? Are you guys really that opposed to change?

It's not a trend, it's a part of the fandom. Every time we get a new gen there are always people that say that the series is ruined. Probably the biggest one in memory is the release of Ruby and Sapphire. GB/GBC games were unable to communicate with GBA games in any way, which basically meant that all of your 1st and 2nd gen Pokemon were stuck there. Additionally only 67 of the previous 251 Pokemon were available, and suddenly the Pokedex had a different numbering system, making some people think that 184 Pokemon were retconned out of existence(Luckily cheat devices eventually revealed they were in the coding, but no one could figure out how they would be obtained due to how the series had worked previously since in Pokemon GSC certain iconic kanto Pokemon were only obtainable by trading with 1st gen).

Eventually things settled down and people accepted that the Gameboy Advance games were starting everything anew(Enough so that some thought Diamond and Pearl would be incompatible with the 3rd gen games when they were first announced).

Rai October 9th, 2016 6:32 AM

The Pokemon series has used the same formula for literally 20 years... I think it is healthy for the game to get an overhaul. Making changes isn't going to kill Pokemon... it's actually going to help keep it alive.

janejane6178 October 9th, 2016 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai (Post 9442139)
The Pokemon series has used the same formula for literally 20 years... I think it is healthy for the game to get an overhaul. Making changes isn't going to kill Pokemon... it's actually going to help keep it alive.

I think that changes might be good but ONLY if they r for the best.
I dont have problem with the new formula as long as its challenging and intruging enough.

Thunderflare October 9th, 2016 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9440296)
Couldn't have said it better, myself. {:3}

Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Judging by the overwhelmingly possitive reaction to any and all Sun and Moon news, it seems like they are not alienating their core fanbase, but appealing to them. Pokemon Go has been a monumental success and Game Freak is using that to remind people that Pokemon is still a thing and has been growing up. But you seem to think all Pokemon fans don't want to grow up because they're ToysRus kids or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9441144)
1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS).

2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to.

3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game.

4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions.

5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing.

6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P

1: So you don't even want to admit that ORAS are canon? Well to bad, princess. They're canon whether you like them or not. And does that mean you hate a fan theory just because most of the evidence comes from those games? That sounds really petty and egotistical.

2: In Pokemon Go, there are no gyms. Despite being completely against that formula, it has more than 500 million downloads, surpassing all other free-to-play games. Its quite clear that the Pokemon themselves are what matters most to people. The purpose of the gyms was to teach people how the game works, a role that can easily be taken by a school or a mentor. I understand being concerned with these changes, but don't pre-judge the game. You haven't even played the demo.

3: Well, that's a perfectly rational reason not to get the game. You'll also be able to see how the game does overall before buying it (or not buy it, if it turns out awful).

4: Which made the alternate forms pointless for anyone except for completionists. Tell me what do I get for having all forms of Unown? Certainly not 28 great Pokemon. Makes more sense to differentiate the forms by more than just looks.

5: The reason they took so long to talk about Mega-evolution is because they had a ton of NEW stuff they wanted to show off. There seem to be no new megas and they want to bring in some new mechanics, so why focus on stuff they aren't even going to improve? They wanted to show how Sun and Moon were different first. Now to explain each new feature to you.

How are Z-moves like Mega-evolution? Both do require an item to be held by the Pokemon and you can only activate one per battle, so they are similar that way. But Z-moves don't change the Pokemon, just give it a fifth move slot with 1 PP. Mega-evolution stays the way it is until the Pokemon drops or the battle ends. Very different mechanics, though both are built on how Pokemon battles work.

The purpose of the Alolan forms is to make different ways to use old Pokemon. They want to expand on the game in various different ways. In fact, that's a lot more like Mega-evolution than Z-moves are. The difference is that Alolan Pokemon can be used in Little Cups.

6: That's actually very telling. You seem to dislike the idea of the games getting more complex and express a liking of the most simplified and easy game in the franchise. Not that enjoying X and Y is bad, just that combined with what you say about Sun and Moon.

Pinkie-Dawn October 9th, 2016 12:49 PM

Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

Ducolamia October 9th, 2016 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9442601)
Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

To be fair, the GCN games have their flaws, but they still have some popularity. Personally, while I like the GCN games, they aren't that huge in my experience with Pokemon. I personally don't praise the games on a pedestal( because some parts of those game haven't aged well), but I think what draws people to them is how it was a little different than something like Pokemon Stadium. It might not be much, but I speculate that people were starting to want something more of the franchise after that game came out.

I personally want a change to the franchise because while I have fun with it, I know Gamefreak can do more to make the games even better. I guess the reception people have now is that they know what they don't want, but don't know what they do want. It's probably more of a problem with any fanbase really. Some people want "this" and some people want "that".

mew_nani October 9th, 2016 5:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9442601)
Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

The GCN games to be fair did add some things to the table like Shadow Pokemon and being more mature than other games as well as having a wild west motif. I personally would love Shadow Pokemon to return but eh.

Though what do spinoffs have to do with Pokemon games basically reusing the same general structure over and over? You don't even need to play any spinoffs to see how things work. In Gen I it was revolutionary. Go catch Pokemon! Fill a Pokedex! Get Gym badges! Beat an evil team! Become the champion! Gen II did the exact same thing, with the added bonus of getting 8 more badges and exploring Kanto again so it was just fine. Gen III... same exact thing as Gen I except in Emerald you fought two evil teams instead of one and got access to the Battle Frontier, and in Firered asnd Leafgreen you went to the Sevii Islands and wrecked Team Rocket and found precious stones. Gen IV was also like Gen III except you got to go to the Torn World and got access a Battle Frontier that was connected to a bigger island where you could beat up Team Galactic again. Gen V was like Gen I, except we got PWT and the story was actually very good and important and we got new places to explore, and Gen VI was just a half-baked version of Gen I and III with no Battle Frontier and with a convoluted timeline plot involving Mega Evolution. The only thing special about it was the lore.

Do you see a pattern here? All of the main games followed the exact same structure: fill a Pokedex, get badges, beat an evil team, save the world, become Champion. Maybe the places you can go are different, maybe the evil team is different, maybe the Pokemon you can catch are different, but in the end you're doing the same things over and over again. The only generations that shook up this formula were Gen II for adding a second quest and Gen V for having the main story front and center. Is it any wonder why people are getting bored? Playing through a Pokemon game the first time is an amazing experience, but after so many repeats of the same thing it gets a bit stale. Gen VI didn't help things by having an underdeveloped region, a poor man's version of Team Galactic, a tacked on aesop about resorce scarcity that didn't belong, too much handholding, and shoehorning in a feature without fully explaining what it is or exploring the implications of this feature (Mega Evolution, if anyone's curious.)

Z25 October 9th, 2016 5:17 PM

Alright I've just got to comment on how ridiculous this is.

The series is changing after 20 yrs so it's not the same old thing?

Whoa it's like you don't want the interest to increase. Switching the formula up a bit was a brilliant move. It brought plenty of people in or back. The game's are still the same. Trials are gyms with other elements of the games adding in so they aren't boring and actually fun. And gyms already were your typical rpg boss, they just add a puzzle to it.

Next, does the timeline really matter at this point? No one cares at all, and it's a jumbled mess as is. The old games being obsolete shouldn't surprise you. The games are meant to do better and better then past entries. It's not like your gameboy games are playable physically on the 3ds. It's been 10 yrs since DP, the series wanted to better itself. Timeline means absolutely nothing and shouldn't be mentioned here.

Next:

Alolan forms are OP, better forms?


Really.....

We know nothing of any of their stats yet, their competitive standing, or if they are even good. Also every Alolan form outside of Raichu has a X4 weakness to something so far. They'll be decimated by that type, essentially nerfing them.

Now:

Megas, again the community brought this upon themselves. With all the hate over the overpoweredness of megas, Pokemon took the best action they could. Every single team at the VGC was the same exact team! No one liked that, and wanted diversity. Also megas were the big gen 6 focus, sun and moon's is Z moves. Which you won't see new ones in gen 8. So get used to new features being introduced and show off for one gen. It's what they do to make new battling styles and experiences for players.


Lastly the series is ever changing and always will be. It wants to stay fresh and not wear it's gimmicks out. All of these complaints you have were done to make the gameplay new and exciting for players and to brighten their play experience. They'll continue to find ways to please fans and offer awesome new content. Consistency is never a thing outside of new features, so you should get used to it if your going to be playing future games, as they need to keep switching up the games to make them better overall.

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 9442897)
Gen VI didn't help things by having an underdeveloped region, a poor man's version of Team Galactic, a tacked on aesop about resorce scarcity that didn't belong, too much handholding, and shoehorning in a feature without fully explaining what it is or exploring the implications of this feature (Mega Evolution, if anyone's curious.)

... I don't recall that part from XY.

mew_nani October 9th, 2016 6:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9442973)
... I don't recall that part from XY.

It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 6:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 9442997)
It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

Eh... The theme itself seems to be very subtle.

However, looking at some of Lysandre's dialogue you are right about Flare complaining about the "lack of resources". This probably could've been executed better if they gave Lysandre a better backstory (but then again most if not all of the evil team leaders suffer from that)...

Pinkie-Dawn October 9th, 2016 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 9442997)
It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 7:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9443052)
And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

I wouldn't really say wiping everyone (except Flare) off the face of the Earth is the most orthodox way of "saving the world".

destinedjagold October 9th, 2016 7:32 PM

About the Megavolutions being banned in the upcoming VGC, methinks the reason for that is to give the Alolan 'dex 'mons a chance to shine. Iirc, the only 'mons that can be used in VGC when XY were released were only those caught/bred/received in XY. So now, a new generation is rolling out so they're simply redoing what they did with VGC when XY came out; they're giving Gen7's Alolan 'dex a chance, wherein Z-Moves are the focus rather than Megavolutions.

Also, methinks there won't be any new megavolutions in Gen7 hence why they're banned. Meh~

Pinkie-Dawn October 9th, 2016 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9443065)
I wouldn't really say wiping everyone (except Flare) off the face of the Earth is the most orthodox way of "saving the world".

But it is for our world, since we've pretty much used up almost every resources and are close to turning our planet into Mars 2.0, and the Earth will heal itself if we wiped ourselves off the planet, which Lysandre was doing.

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 8:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9443107)
But it is for our world, since we've pretty much used up almost every resources and are close to turning our planet into Mars 2.0, and the Earth will heal itself if we wiped ourselves off the planet, which Lysandre was doing.

I'm pretty sure a giant laser beam that would probably be shot over 6,000 miles from the surface and then crash back down would do more harm than good to the planet.

Z25 October 9th, 2016 8:15 PM

The whole humans are greedy plot was done better in the anime. Lysandre tells Ash and Alain how years ago Team Flare were good guys. They were a charity organization with all their current admins and scientists. They'd go around to towns deliver packages of good the town didn't have or needed.

This helped out people greatly, but overtime they began getting greedy asking for more and getting angry by not being given all they wanted. This upset Lysandre and he developed the idea that the world was done for if he didn't wipe out the people and cleanse the world of the humans who kept demanding so much from it.

In a way, he has a semi noble goal, but it's done in a very psychotic way which is why he's "evil".


The dealing with of real world issues was a interesting change for the series to take. It doesn't make the franchise start to crash and burn, but gives it a more realistic point of view, which when written the right way helps make the games be really well. Like the Black and White games started this trend with, and current they are viewed as the best games.

It helps show this an be a step in the right direction if done correctly.

Sopheria October 9th, 2016 8:17 PM

I know how you feel, but you really have to consider that every new generation has introduced changes and each time there are always people who felt that said changes signaled "the death of Pokémon" (look at the number of people who still to this day say that the original 151 are the only "real" Pokémon). But those things have all become a part of what we know and love as Pokémon because people were willing to give it a chance and enjoy it for what it is. The same thing will happen here (and then by 8th gen people will be so used to having regional variants that not having them will be considered "not Pokémon enough" :P )

WingsofBliss October 9th, 2016 8:18 PM

The tagine for the entire franchise is "gotta catch 'em all", so it's not like the Gyms and E4 were the only true things that made Pokémon what it is. Like what everyone has said, the trial captains and kahunas are essentially the same thing with a fresh coat of paint. What I think is really cool about it is the little tasks and missions you'll have to complete in the trials.

Other than that, i think everything looks terrific so far, and this is the most hyped I've ever been forr a Pokemon game in a long time. I just don't see how somebody could hate these games when they aren't even out yet.

Z25 October 9th, 2016 8:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsofBliss (Post 9443153)
The tagine for the entire franchise is "gotta catch 'em all", so it's not like the Gyms and E4 were the only true things that made Pokémon what it is. Like what everyone has said, the trial captains and kahunas are essentially the same thing with a fresh coat of paint. What I think is really cool about it is the little tasks and missions you'll have to complete in the trials.

Other than that, i think everything looks terrific so far, and this is the most hyped I've ever been forr a Pokemon game in a long time. I just don't see how somebody could hate these games when they aren't even out yet.

Actually a good point to mention.

The tagline is now Train On! Proof that they want to make the games more fresh and that their goal is to switch up the franchise a bit now.

mew_nani October 9th, 2016 8:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9443052)
And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

Saving the world... by destroying the world. I can't say I'm that surprised given Team Aqua was also planning to expand the habitat of aquatic Pokemon by introducing an eternal flood that would completely shut down the underwater currents currently sustaining most oceanic life on Earth, dooming them all to a slow and drawn out demise, and Team Magma's little idea to cause an eternal drought to expand the landmasses of the world for terrestrial mons would also wreck the climate of the world in a similar fashion as well horribly alter global weather patterns. Don't you just love ecoterrorists?

At least Team Plasma did the whole Pokemon abuse schtick right, and Team Galactic was.... wait what were they again? An energy company? I'm never understand how they maintained that front with their spikey buildings and bowl cuts and petty theft.

Silly mode off, Pokemon only really started hammering real life issues in Gen V. Team Rocket always was the de facto mafia, Team Magma and Team Aqua were just a bunch of cooks doing crazy crap and summoning eldritch creatures they couldn't control, and Team Galactic were known more for having strange fashion sense than for endorsing any real life cause. Team Plasma was where it all started, and to their credit they brought up an issue that is genuinely a big concern: Pokemon Abuse. Team Flare though tried to mix being silly with deliberate world destruction and it simply doesn't work. They're their own antethesis: they're trying to blow the world up because people like them specifically are causing problems, and instead of being treated seriously as the psychopaths they actually were they were treated sympathetically instead. I still maintain AZ should have been the main villain instead. It would have worked so much better.

Also, I never thought I'd see the day where the anime actually fleshes out the main villains of a Pokemon game better than the games do on that magnitude. Must be Gen I all over again.

WingsofBliss October 10th, 2016 4:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z25 (Post 9443169)
Actually a good point to mention.

The tagline is now Train On! Proof that they want to make the games more fresh and that their goal is to switch up the franchise a bit now.

I thought that was the tagline for the 20th Anniversary specifically, not the actual franchise itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 9443170)
Saving the world... by destroying the world. I can't say I'm that surprised given Team Aqua was also planning to expand the habitat of aquatic Pokemon by introducing an eternal flood that would completely shut down the underwater currents currently sustaining most oceanic life on Earth, dooming them all to a slow and drawn out demise, and Team Magma's little idea to cause an eternal drought to expand the landmasses of the world for terrestrial mons would also wreck the climate of the world in a similar fashion as well horribly alter global weather patterns. Don't you just love ecoterrorists?

At least Team Plasma did the whole Pokemon abuse schtick right, and Team Galactic was.... wait what were they again? An energy company? I'm never understand how they maintained that front with their spikey buildings and bowl cuts and petty theft.

Silly mode off, Pokemon only really started hammering real life issues in Gen V. Team Rocket always was the de facto mafia, Team Magma and Team Aqua were just a bunch of cooks doing crazy crap and summoning eldritch creatures they couldn't control, and Team Galactic were known more for having strange fashion sense than for endorsing any real life cause. Team Plasma was where it all started, and to their credit they brought up an issue that is genuinely a big concern: Pokemon Abuse. Team Flare though tried to mix being silly with deliberate world destruction and it simply doesn't work. They're their own antethesis: they're trying to blow the world up because people like them specifically are causing problems, and instead of being treated seriously as the psychopaths they actually were they were treated sympathetically instead. I still maintain AZ should have been the main villain instead. It would have worked so much better.

Also, I never thought I'd see the day where the anime actually fleshes out the main villains of a Pokemon game better than the games do on that magnitude. Must be Gen I all over again.

While the deeper storylines in these games started with Gen 5, I think the characterization of NPC's started with Gen 4. Cyrus was given a motive and a little bit of backstory for his actions; his parents didn't really care about him and were not pleased with him no matter how hard he worked in his studies growing up. There's also the Celebi event we got in HGSS, that showed us a bit of backstory of Silver and Giovanni, and also explained why Silver was the way he is.

Nah October 10th, 2016 5:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z25 (Post 9443149)
The whole humans are greedy plot was done better in the anime. Lysandre tells Ash and Alain how years ago Team Flare were good guys. They were a charity organization with all their current admins and scientists. They'd go around to towns deliver packages of good the town didn't have or needed.

This helped out people greatly, but overtime they began getting greedy asking for more and getting angry by not being given all they wanted. This upset Lysandre and he developed the idea that the world was done for if he didn't wipe out the people and cleanse the world of the humans who kept demanding so much from it.

fuckin' shit the one time the anime does something better than the games.....-_-


Anyway to keep this on topic I will just say that I'm going to remain very neutral towards Sun and Moon until I actually get the chance to play them. I have gotten overhyped and then later disappointed in games far too many times to let myself do that anymore. The thing to keep in mind is that what we get through trailers and such is really just a mere fraction of the games. We don't know everything about anything that's been revealed so far. We don't know what else is in these games or how things can go, or how it all interacts together in the game, or even how it feels to directly play with these things. Things you may have liked/hated during pre-release may later turn into things you hate/like post-release. We just don't know, as much as people would like to claim that they know that these games will be good or bad. It is indeed silly to think the games will be horrible and kill the franchise based on what little we know, but for that very same reason it's equally silly to think that these games will be amazeballs and revitalize the franchise.


I do hope that the games will turn out amazing, but hope don't change reality folks. Nevermind that I'm still afraid that Game Freak may treat Sun/Moon the same way they do with almost every pair of a new generation.

Iceshadow3317 October 10th, 2016 7:31 AM

There are two kinds of people when it comes to the world. People who can adapt to new ways. Or people who can't stand change. It is like this with every single thing in the world.

People wanted change, but when we get it, people cry about it. Complain about it. And can't stand the fact that it is changing. Before they even give the changes a chance.

Pokemon isn't dying at all. It is still the top seller. It is still possibly the biggest franchise in the world when it comes to types of medias. Pokemon is a god to a lot of things. Sun and Moon will probably have some of the most sold copies ever.

You either accept change or don't. Change will always win. So you have to adapt. I for one think these will be some of the best games ever. Because it is fresh. Because it is new things. Because it will probably focus more on story which the games desperately need after Unova Games.

And I am going to guess the people who are really against this are people from the first generation who have not really liked anything since the originals because you can't be happy for how long pokemon has lasted as a whole and are stuck in the past because of useless, overactive nostalgia.

Caaethil October 10th, 2016 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9443052)
And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

Wait, are you endorsing saving the world through mass genocide? Because that's a bit messed up. Please tell me I'm missing some context here. >.<

Z25 October 10th, 2016 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsofBliss (Post 9443468)
I thought that was the tagline for the 20th Anniversary specifically, not the actual franchise itself.



While the deeper storylines in these games started with Gen 5, I think the characterization of NPC's started with Gen 4. Cyrus was given a motive and a little bit of backstory for his actions; his parents didn't really care about him and were not pleased with him no matter how hard he worked in his studies growing up. There's also the Celebi event we got in HGSS, that showed us a bit of backstory of Silver and Giovanni, and also explained why Silver was the way he is.

I think it's suppose to be for the series over all now. I could be wrong, but I think it was created already the anniversary. They may not have been clear on it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nah (Post 9443532)
****in' **** the one time the anime does something better than the games.....-_-


Anyway to keep this on topic I will just say that I'm going to remain very neutral towards Sun and Moon until I actually get the chance to play them. I have gotten overhyped and then later disappointed in games far too many times to let myself do that anymore. The thing to keep in mind is that what we get through trailers and such is really just a mere fraction of the games. We don't know everything about anything that's been revealed so far. We don't know what else is in these games or how things can go, or how it all interacts together in the game, or even how it feels to directly play with these things. Things you may have liked/hated during pre-release may later turn into things you hate/like post-release. We just don't know, as much as people would like to claim that they know that these games will be good or bad. It is indeed silly to think the games will be horrible and kill the franchise based on what little we know, but for that very same reason it's equally silly to think that these games will be amazeballs and revitalize the franchise.


I do hope that the games will turn out amazing, but hope don't change reality folks. Nevermind that I'm still afraid that Game Freak may treat Sun/Moon the same way they do with almost every pair of a new generation.

X and Y's anime portrayed the characters really well. Which was nice with how under developed the games had them.

Pinkie-Dawn October 10th, 2016 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caaethil (Post 9443802)
Wait, are you endorsing saving the world through mass genocide? Because that's a bit messed up. Please tell me I'm missing some context here. >.<

Yes, and it's also why MCU Ultron has a point about humanity and why it should be taken into consideration.

Quote:

And I am going to guess the people who are really against this are people from the first generation who have not really liked anything since the originals because you can't be happy for how long pokemon has lasted as a whole and are stuck in the past because of useless, overactive nostalgia.
Or they've only played the first generation and not the later games because they felt they're all the same game (yes, they'll even think SM is still the same game regardless of changes made to the structure).

clbgolden October 10th, 2016 5:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9444169)
Yes, and it's also why MCU Ultron has a point about humanity and why it should be taken into consideration.

Waitttt, you seriously think killing masses of people is something that should be taken into consideration?

Do you NOT see the problem with that?

MarioManH October 10th, 2016 6:20 PM

Haven't logged in for months, and I came on just to reply to this.

You never gave these games a chance what-so-ever, and just because of that your whole argument is just irrelevant. Yes, these games could end up being a total flop, or these games could usher in a new golden age of Pokemon.

I remember thinking that 5th Generation was going to be a total flop, as I felt it would be some what of a repeat of 4th Generation, but it ended up refreshing the whole Pokemon franchise. What I mean by that B/W brought back many old fans (From pre-Gen4), and introduced a bunch of new fans to the scene, with nostalgic feels that were reminiscent of the first games.

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

Nah October 10th, 2016 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9443628)
Probably worth noting that Game Freak does have more experience under their belt with 3DS games after X/Y and ORAS. If S/M were the very first main game 3DS games, I'd be slightly worried, but seeing as this is the third pair of 3DS games? I'd say they're pretty adept to things by now.

Nah I mean that when you look at the first released pair of each generation since 3 (so R/S, D/P, B/W, and X/Y), you'll notice a pattern with them, and it's not exactly a positive one. What's stopping them from continuing it with Sun/Moon?

MegaKuriboh October 10th, 2016 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9444522)
That's precisely what I'm saying, though! R/S were the first GBA games, and then Game Freak improved with Emerald mid-generation with fixes, etc. D/P were the first DS games, they were really slow, and then Platinum came about and there were improvements. B/W is debatable; some may argue it's fluid because of the story, and just had a ****ty post-game, which was improved upon in B2W2. X/Y were the first 3DS games, so it's expected that it turned out rushed. Don't forget ORAS; which is arguably more fluid in gameplay than X/Y.

So basically, what I was saying is the issue of things being botched up, rushed, and messy is usually only seen by the first games of each console rather than each generation, although the former coincides with the latter.

tl;dr of what I'm trying to say is that this is Game Freak's third pair of 3DS games. If these were the first pair of games to come out on the 3DS ever, then I can see your concern about sloppiness and rushed areas, but they've had X/Y for that, and ORAS is arguably more polished than X/Y, so there's probably a safe bet that S/M would turn out to be more polished than ORAS.

I agree, I feel like R/S, D/P and X/Y are all sort of empty and not super polished, but I thought BW was pretty solid (even though it didn't have a Battle Frontier), but as whole games they're pretty solid meanwhile I never want to touch my Diamond/Pearl games again. In fact, I'm glad they didn't decide to give us Gray, and gave us a whole new adventure in that region instead (Although XY could have done with a Z).

I'm trying to keep my hopes low on a few things, but I feel like Game Freak won't let us down with these games. They had 3 or so years of development time, it's the 20th anniversary games, and also after a disappointing generation, they have no excuse to bring us lackluster and empty games.

Dman10062 October 11th, 2016 8:08 AM

I do not see the recent and new games as the death of the series. The Pokemon Company is certainly changing things up, but that does not mean that Pokemon is dying. I think The Pokemon Company, as many others have pointed out, is simply adding some new things to the old formula. While some new ideas might be poorly implemented in one game, that means that The Pokemon Company can try to fix it in later games.

For example, let's look at the first gen games. Nostalgia aside, they were extremely broken games and are nothing compared to games like OR and AS. Just because something new is being introduced, it doesn't mean that the whole game series is going to die off immediately. Just give Sun and Moon a chance, and if you don't like the game, simply do not play it, and give the Pokemon Company some constructive feedback so they can improve whatever you thought was bad.

BettyNewbie October 11th, 2016 10:45 AM

I really don't like the "if you don't like it, don't play it" mentality I'm seeing in many of these comments. Cerberus brought up many valid points that are worth considering, even if you disagree with him.

It seems that anytime the newest games are criticized for anything, people have this kneejerk reaction and write off any criticism as being "blinded by nostalgia." Being a Pokémon fan shouldn't mean having to blindly love everything about every game, and in fact, more people should be critiquing the games and acknowledging that GF doesn't always make the best or smartest decisions. That's what a healthy fandom does. Way too many of these comments read like they were written by GF/Nintendo representatives rather than ordinary fans.

Those are my final words on this topic, take 'em or leave 'em.

Caaethil October 11th, 2016 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9445218)
I really don't like the "if you don't like it, don't play it" mentality I'm seeing in many of these comments. Cerberus brought up many valid points that are worth considering, even if you disagree with him.

It seems that anytime the newest games are criticized for anything, people have this kneejerk reaction and write off any criticism as being "blinded by nostalgia." Being a Pokémon fan shouldn't mean having to blindly love everything about every game, and in fact, more people should be critiquing the games and acknowledging that GF doesn't always make the best or smartest decisions. That's what a healthy fandom does. Way too many of these comments read like they were written by GF/Nintendo representatives rather than ordinary fans.

Those are my final words on this topic, take 'em or leave 'em.

I'm not surprised you chose to reply to only the lowest common denominator of responses you got.

To clarify, we're telling you you're blinded by nostalgia or some such because the only reason you seem mad is because it's different. You have this vague kind of "it's not Pokemon" argument and that's no good. Not to mention the demonstrably false comment of it alienating the core fanbase.

And by the way, what mentality would you prefer in the future? If you don't like it, go to GameFreak and make them change it? If you don't like it, destroy every copy to make sure GameFreak do it differently next time? If you don't like it, write a strongly worded email to Nintendo? Because "if you don't like it, don't play it" seems like a perfectly sensible response to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9444169)
Yes, and it's also why MCU Ultron has a point about humanity and why it should be taken into consideration.

Well, um... That's interesting. I'd like to see a Round Table thread on this. This isn't the place. :)

MegaKuriboh October 11th, 2016 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9445218)
I really don't like the "if you don't like it, don't play it" mentality I'm seeing in many of these comments. Cerberus brought up many valid points that are worth considering, even if you disagree with him.

It seems that anytime the newest games are criticized for anything, people have this kneejerk reaction and write off any criticism as being "blinded by nostalgia." Being a Pokémon fan shouldn't mean having to blindly love everything about every game, and in fact, more people should be critiquing the games and acknowledging that GF doesn't always make the best or smartest decisions. That's what a healthy fandom does. Way too many of these comments read like they were written by GF/Nintendo representatives rather than ordinary fans.

Those are my final words on this topic, take 'em or leave 'em.

It's fine to criticize a game if you don't like it, but why before the game even comes out? We have no idea if these changes will be good or bad to the franchise, and we probably only know about 25% of the game at best anyways right now, so why write off the games that could potentially be fantastic when you don't know it?

clbgolden October 11th, 2016 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9445218)
I really don't like the "if you don't like it, don't play it" mentality I'm seeing in many of these comments. Cerberus brought up many valid points that are worth considering, even if you disagree with him.

It seems that anytime the newest games are criticized for anything, people have this kneejerk reaction and write off any criticism as being "blinded by nostalgia." Being a Pokémon fan shouldn't mean having to blindly love everything about every game, and in fact, more people should be critiquing the games and acknowledging that GF doesn't always make the best or smartest decisions. That's what a healthy fandom does. Way too many of these comments read like they were written by GF/Nintendo representatives rather than ordinary fans.

Those are my final words on this topic, take 'em or leave 'em.

There's a fine line between critiques and then saying these games are going to ruin the Pokémon franchise.

Iceshadow3317 October 11th, 2016 4:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9445218)
I really don't like the "if you don't like it, don't play it" mentality I'm seeing in many of these comments. Cerberus brought up many valid points that are worth considering, even if you disagree with him.

It seems that anytime the newest games are criticized for anything, people have this kneejerk reaction and write off any criticism as being "blinded by nostalgia." Being a Pokémon fan shouldn't mean having to blindly love everything about every game, and in fact, more people should be critiquing the games and acknowledging that GF doesn't always make the best or smartest decisions. That's what a healthy fandom does. Way too many of these comments read like they were written by GF/Nintendo representatives rather than ordinary fans.

Those are my final words on this topic, take 'em or leave 'em.

What's the difference between what you have said and what we say? So because we are fans of pokemon, we can't defend the games before they come out? Well guess what, we are tired of that type of mentality. And most of the time, it is blinded by nostalgia because they have hated on everything that isn't Gen 1. Or they just CAN'T ACCEPT change. And that is usually what it boils down to. It's new so people automatically hate it because it isn't what it used to be.

Even the ones who defend GF/Nintendo can disagree with them, but continue to defend them.

I disagreed with a lot of things they did in 6th Gen, but I either accepted it or it grew on me. Arceus knows how much I disagreed with them on so much in 6th gen. I hated the change from Gyms to Trials, but I adapted and I think it is the best way to go for the entire franchise. Especially if it is going to focus a bit more on story. I disagree with a lot of things GF/Nintendo does, but I am going to continue to defend them and trust that they know what they are doing.

Mobile Tsk October 11th, 2016 4:19 PM

On the contrary I am actually thrilled about the new games, which is something I haven't been able to say in a long time. Frankly a lot of people, myself included, have grown tired of seeing the same formula over and over again. This was coupled with the truly uninspired designs of Gen 4/5 that only began to show signs of life in Gen 6 that made a lot of people think that the franchise was begin to founder. But what we know about the new games shows some very cutting edge game design and I think it's about time we had a change of pace. And yes, while I agree "If you don't like it, don't play it" is a rather weak cop-out for the defense of gimmicky game developments, I do think most of the people rejecting the change in Sun & Moon are, in fact, blinded by nostalgia. I've had a lot of disdain for some of the games that have come out in the past 10 years and for a while I thought it was because what made them different from the original games. But no, the lack of creativity, staleness of the same storyline repeated in another, more arduous and painfully elongated region, was what I disliked about them. The new games really offer a breath of fresh air for people who thought the franchise was on its way out.

machomuu October 11th, 2016 5:16 PM

Heh, I suppose someone had to.

I find it a bit funny that I'm seeing this despite S&M being the most excited I've dared to be about a Pokemon game since DP, which was also the release that ended with me being pretty jaded towards the series and its later releases (and even some of its earlier ones retroactively). Largely because the formula- well, first, as I've said before, isn't what makes Pokemon "Pokemon", there's a lot more to it than that. But even if it was...it's not gone. It's still here, as clear as day, just given a different coat to make it feel like a fresher experience which, if I'm going to be honest, is probably the best and most brilliant way they could please those that want more of the same and those that have left the series or have grown tired of the same old thing.

But the gym battles are still there, the rival's still there, the team's still there, and so on, they've just been given some functional restructuring for the sake of the title. Is it really so wrong to get creative with a long-running concept? I mean, I could understand being upset if they basically built the game from the ground up and it wasn't to your liking, but this is basically the answer to changing from doing too little without doing too much, and honestly I think that's the firm grasp and flourishing of Pokemon's potential that it's needed for generations. That they could find a happy medium is a good thing and I'm glad it's being so well-received, because it shows GF that they can play with ideas without being yelled at for it, and depending on the praise for the game, it will become the expectation and Pokemon, as a franchise, will inevitably really grow into its own.

That's the way I see it anyway. Pokemon isn't dying. It's not being reborn or anything. It's just moving forward, and thank goodness for that.

Pinkie-Dawn October 11th, 2016 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machomuu (Post 9445610)
Heh, I suppose someone had to.

I find it a bit funny that I'm seeing this despite S&M being the most excited I've dared to be about a Pokemon game since DP, which was also the release that ended with me being pretty jaded towards the series and its later releases (and even some of its earlier ones retroactively). Largely because the formula- well, first, as I've said before, isn't what makes Pokemon "Pokemon", there's a lot more to it than that. But even if it was...it's not gone. It's still here, as clear as day, just given a different coat to make it feel like a fresher experience which, if I'm going to be honest, is probably the best and most brilliant way they could please those that want more of the same and those that have left the series or have grown tired of the same old thing.

But the gym battles are still there, the rival's still there, the team's still there, and so on, they've just been given some functional restructuring for the sake of the title. Is it really so wrong to get creative with a long-running concept? I mean, I could understand being upset if they basically built the game from the ground up and it wasn't to your liking, but this is basically the answer to changing from doing too little without doing too much, and honestly I think that's the firm grasp and flourishing of Pokemon's potential that it's needed for generations. That they could find a happy medium is a good thing and I'm glad it's being so well-received, because it shows GF that they can play with ideas without being yelled at for it, and depending on the praise for the game, it will become the expectation and Pokemon, as a franchise, will inevitably really grow into its own.

That's the way I see it anyway. Pokemon isn't dying. It's not being reborn or anything. It's just moving forward, and thank goodness for that.

This situation has also happened with the Paper Mario fanbase when Color Splash was announced. Whenever the developers tries a different spin to the series' structure, the older fans will be outraged and deem the franchise ruined forever.

MarinoKadame October 12th, 2016 3:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9445799)
This situation has also happened with the Paper Mario fanbase when Color Splash was announced. Whenever the developers tries a different spin to the series' structure, the older fans will be outraged and deem the franchise ruined forever.

Just like with Metroid with Other M and the latest one that came out. I wish Nintendo even said a word about Metroid anniversary but they said nothing and kept going on the Zelda bandwagon like always.

Pinkie-Dawn October 12th, 2016 7:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinoKadame (Post 9446016)
Just like with Metroid with Other M and the latest one that came out. I wish Nintendo even said a word about Metroid anniversary but they said nothing and kept going on the Zelda bandwagon like always.

They didn't make any big deal with Zelda's anniversary either because of Pokemon's 20th anniversary.

MarinoKadame October 12th, 2016 8:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9446212)
They didn't make any big deal with Zelda's anniversary either because of Pokemon's 20th anniversary.

They still dedicated an whole E3 with just Zelda outside of the Treehouse stuff.

Azire October 12th, 2016 10:59 PM

I don't understand the reason for discussion here. This is Gen VII, and it is the end...

Just like Gen VI was the end, I mean, what comes after X and Y? Z, and that can only mean the end. So many people were talking about it.

Oh yeah, Gen V was the end as well. Especially once B2W2 were announced instead of Grey. The Pokémon Company changing stuff up obviously means the end.

Wait let's not forget that Gen IV was also the end!! How do you follow up the GOD of all Pokémon!? I remember plenty of talk about that.

In all fairness, I didn't really play Gen III, and I don't remember forums from back when I was playing Gen I and Gen II. I do remember talk that Pokémon would die after Gen I & II, because Gen II included Gen I areas, and obviously they were out of ideas. I don't regret not playing Gen III, I still haven't been able to finish a Gen III game, even with the remakes. That story sucks so bad......

Long story short, EVERY Gen is the last Gen, Pokémon is always ending. The sky is falling!! Wolf!! WOLF!!

Rengoku October 14th, 2016 9:40 AM

When generation 5 came in, I gave the games a chance but I realized I don't like the generation to the slightest bit. I still went on to buy White 2 after getting Black and White, but I wasn't pleased with it, at all.

Generation 6 really sparked me again, but nothing beats the hype of this new generation! All the changes made, all the formulas changing, new Pokemon, and oh, new forms for the older Pokemon. I am in.

You cannot please everyone. Every generations, PC will see people whining about how GameFreak is ruining Pokemon and how this will so be the last generation and how the person complaining will never buy the games.

Mr. Meme October 14th, 2016 9:43 AM

For a moment, I thought this was gonna involve that utterly bone-headed Gnoggin theory.

This is still freaking stupid. You don't need story to enjoy a game. When I played Kingdom Hearts: DDS I skipped literally every single cutscene that was skippable, and I still had a blast.

Xerecies October 30th, 2016 2:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9440178)
There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.

For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.

Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.

Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.

And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.

My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

I see where you're coming from, but in my honest opinion Pokemon needed change -- especially nearing the 20th anniversary.


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