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Sun/Moon signal the sad death of Pokémon as we know it
There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.
For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements. Fast forward to ORAS. In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless. Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another. And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why. My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected. |
So, changing up the formula just a little bit and adding creative new additions to the games mean Pokémon is dying?
... Seriously? Also, the Mega Evolution timeline doesn't make the old games "useless". Presumably, all the stuff that happened then still happened in the Mega timeline. |
....Huh? ~_~
There's been a split in the Pokemon timeline much further back than Gen VI: all the way back in Gen III the Pokemon timeline was split into two branches when Firered and Leafgreen came out and retconed Gen I. There's three different timelines; one that includes the games from Gen I and II, one that includes Gen III, IV, and V, and one that includes Gen VI and VII. This isn't even going into split versions having separate timelines of their own. More importantly though why are you outright dissing the game when it's not even out yet? Yeah Gen VI wasn't thought out at all. Yeah Gen VI messed things up chronologically and introduced elements that didn't make much sense and weren't explained. But how do you know Sun and Moon are just as bad if not worse just because they include features you don't like? Alola Forms aren't a replacement for older Pokemon; it's basically region variants that have already shown up in other places that people have wanted for a while. The Ultra Beasts aren't bad either as in PMD there's at least two major enemies that aren't Pokemon and can't be befriended. But most importantly we don't really know how all these features will function in a game that hasn't been released yet and that we know little about. You're standing on the church tower with a big megaphone yelling "POKEMON IS RUINED FOREVER! THEY JUMPED THE SHARPEDO FOR SURE THIS TIME!!!" when you didn't even give the games a proper chance yet. Wait until they're released, play through them, and after we know what lore changes they bring to the table THEN we can decide if they're as bad as Gen VI or not. To be honest I'm not sure why you're upset over Mega Evolution being partially phased out; wasn't it gamebreaking anyways? |
I'm sorry dude, I can understand that you are personally against the changes, because change is scary, but it doesn't mean that pokemon is dying.
First of all, your statement about the timelines is completely misinformed. Quote:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Generation_III Quote:
Alola forms are the next big change! Yes, we already know for a fact that GF has no understanding of Meta game, nor do they care in the slightest about it, but that lack of not caring does not mean that the addition of Alola forms is not natural to the lore of overall pokemon growth. Pokemon have shown to change based on the are of the region that they are in. My favorite example of this is Arbok. Arbok has a different neck pattern in every single new region. Spoiler:
Arbok is proof that Game Freak has always (since at least generation 2 anyways) wanted to do regional changed pokemon who have adapted to various different climates and Eco systems. I will admit, that I am a little sad that these Alola forms will be replacing their original formed pokemon most likely at a competitive value, but as I explained, Game Freak has proven to not care about balance in Meta. Though I can not assert enough, that all of this at a lore perspective and following the pokemon formula, it really does make sense as an addition to the pokemon franchise. As for the concept that Mega's will be completely forgotten. This is just not true. If they were intending to throw away the mechanic, than we would not have seen its return in the most recent revealed preview. It's very apparent that we'll not be seeing much Mega Evolution progress in these new games, but it is obvious that they will be present in the games and will be accessible in post game. I also must repeat what I said previously. GAME FREAK DOES NOT CARE ABOUT COMPETITIVE, they have absolutely no influence in what happens at VGC's. They just don't care. They have no say as to whether Mega Evolution should be phased out or not. Therefore since there is no connection that means that the lack of using Megas in competitive has no influence on anything that might be occurring in the current game nor the later games. Overall the pokemon games are still pokemon games, and part of being a pokemon game is being in a constant form of change. Overall it's about the pokemon, and with each generation we have seen nothing but growth and expansion within the pokemon themselves. If you decided that you have grown out of pokemon games or are just plain stuck in a pit of Nostalgia, that's on you, not Game Freak. |
I'm not getting involved in this but Cerberus I hope you were prepared for an overwhelmingly negative response to this thread of yours
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Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it. And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea. |
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"On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore."
^ Just wanted to point out that Raichu was used by the VGC 2016 Champion and that it is very popular in the current meta, so moot point. Also the banning of megas in the next format is irrelevant to whether or not developers are interested in the mechanic, and has entirely to do with how balancing works. Currently, megas dominate the current meta to the point where it's impossible to have any form of serious team diversity. The changes in the format every year are intended to help stabilize and update it. Nothing to do with "dead mechanics" or whatever. They know damn well what they are doing, and they're doing it well as I and tons upon tons of people who are excited for SM think. Mechanics come and go in Pokemon all the time. Each gen loses something that was introduced, Pokemon has always been like this with every single generation except for perhaps Gen I - III which consisted of solid upgrading. As shown in the latest news trailer however, these things do tend to resurface, since we're basically getting Join Avenue 2.0 in SM. |
Angelica's point is one I agree with. I actually don't mind the drastic changes Sun & Moon are making, but like said, not everyone likes a certain Pokemon game.
We're only a month out from release and we have learned of a lot of new features, but also we've been having a lot of other stuff kept secret. Like Angelica said, we don't know much else at this stage apart from the new Pokemon, the Alola Forms and some of the new features. Heck, we don't even know any cities, towns or routes in Alola yet either! |
Pokemon, in essence is an RPG where you raise and catch different monster to fight for you. The structure of the story and the world/Level design is just a bonus really... You're not going into a pokemon game for a mind blowing story, you're playing it to catch and battle with your favorite mons. The game is also built to be fairly easy to understand, but has a certain level of depth so both casual and hardcore players can enjoy the game...
The story/level structure of Sun and Moon is different yes, but is that such really such a bad thing. Diverging from the series 20 year old formula is the best thing GF can do to old fans who've grown tired of... battle a couple of gyms -> meet evil organization -> battle a couple more gyms -> catch the legendary pokemon on the cover of the game -> beat the evil organization -> battle some more gym -> fight the elite four -> battle and beat the champion -> Play endless late game content. You say their not paying homage to the old games... and yet the Alolan forms and Mega's (Diancie is the only gen 6 pokemon to get a mega) are here to celebrate old-gen Pokemon... Also, GF had never cared for creating a meta game for pokemon (Look at the way they give Pokemon abilities, their more focused on giving them abilities that match their character/personality/biology/mythology). VGC is owned by the Pokemon Company yes, but they have no input to the creation of the Pokemon games. The best they can do to influence the meta is banning Pokemon. Lack of consistency? gen 1-5 had the same exact structure just new mons. Add to the fact that we haven't even played the full game or even the demo... It kind of looks like your hating Sun and Moon for being 'new' or different. It's to early to judge... I can definitely see where your coming from. Change is scary and there is a lot of changes in the upcoming Sun and Moon. But as always we should try to keep an open mind - so we don't ruin the experience for ourselves. |
I like how you're going with this, but let me give a nice reminder on how XY is basically pandering to the nostalgia of many fans.
Kanto Starters? Check, and give them Megas as a bonus. Santalune Forest? It's just a 3D Viridian Forest. Snorlax blocking the path and you need a Pokeflute? Yeah got that covered. And how it was received by the longing fans? Quite negatively. Sure the features were great and all but overall, the story's too bland, it felt too easy and you really feel the whole "yeah we just want to get a 3DS Pokemon game out" kind of vibe. The fans want something that feels fresher than what we've been playing for the past 20 years. In essence, there's still Gyms in the form of Trials, there's an evil organization, and you travel the world catching and raising Pokemon to fight. Isn't that what Pokemon's main identity is based on? It's not different from the core formula. just be glad they didn't completely remove the Megas, unlike some things like the Wonder Launcher (anyone remembered that?) and the BATTLE FREAKING FRONTIER. Sure they won't be the main focus of the game since that was last gen's new special feature, so this gen they'll be focusing on the Z-Moves and the Alolan forms, because they're the ones that are new. Megas might get touched upon, but it'll be quite minor. Also tell me, homage? Do we seriously have to include homage to old games in the new games? Pretty sure we got nearly all the differing wireless features introduced so far packed into one area, and we even got a Pokemon-Snap-esque feature thanks to all the fans clamoring for a Snap remake/sequel. Oh, and how all the Alolan mons are Gen 1 mons? And how Mimikyu is just something dressed up as a Pikachu? idk, be the judge. |
I'm gonna be the devil's advocate for just a bit here, and agree that banning Megas in VGC is a stupid move tbh. I mean, they did make it a big deal back in Gen 6, but now, it's pretty much obsolete and stuff, like they're trying to forget they exist, and they just added them in S&M so fans wouldnt complain as much.
This does bring me to the next point, the future of Pokemon. When Gen 8 rolls around, what happens to the Alola Forms? They're called Alola forms for a reason. Would that indicate those forms be obsolete in the future? Most of what Cerebrus said, I generally disagree, but he did bring up an interesting point regarding Megas tho. |
People complaining about VGC banning mega's is stupid. We will probably not be able to use lots of the legendaries of previous gens, because they will be uncatchable in Sun and Moon. Remember when XY came out. All pre gen 6 pokémon were banned from VGC. A lot of the popular pokémon in gen 5 couldn't be used because you couldn't catch them in XY or because the lack of move tutors some were garbage. In VGC 2018 we will probably see mega's again and we will be able to use transferred Pokémon.
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So you're hating on these games because they changed the formula? Just because GF created new features, and changed old ones, you say the Pokémon Games are ruined? Sincerily, I was so sick and tired of the whole "Battle Gyms - defeat evil team - capture legend - battle gyms - battle Elite Four - Battle Champion - End" formula. I really love they made Alola unique.. Since the region it's based on Hawaii, I think the concept of Trials really suit the region. Plus, it's just a minor change.... You still progress through the game while doing Trials (=Gyms), you still battle the evil Team (= Team Skull and/or Aether Foundation), you still explore the region and learn about its Lore (= connection to the Legendaries), and most importantly, you still catch Pokémon and use them on your team, growing stronger while you progress through the game (=Pokémon Games).
I don't know why you're judging the book by its cover here.... Sun and Moon haven't come out yet, so we can't say if they're good or not, and changing the formula isn't what makes the game bad... |
Honestly? I don't know how you can judge a game that hasn't even been released yet. It's fine that you have your own opinion and that you're not happy with changes at this stage, but at least give these games a chance before casting judgement.
My personal opinion is that these games are looking great! I love how they've changed the formula, by not doing so can make the franchise start to feel a little stale after seven generations. It's not like these games are a far cry from XY/ORAS or earlier generations, the core mechanics still pretty much remain intact. We will still be travelling around a new region, capturing Pokemon, fighting a villainous team and so on. Although there are some bigger changes coming into play, I wouldn't say they signal the end of the franchise by any means necessary. I completely welcome these changes and I don't think I've been this hyped for Pokemon games in years tbh. |
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Again VGC has no bearing on the Pokemon GF creates or have any influence in any new pokemon. They just set up and manage the huge Pokemon Tournaments and just make a standard set of tournament rules. VGC tournament rules changes every year to spice things up (Changing it from singles to doubles or mega rayquaza and the two primals being allowed for vgc 2016) - They may ban the use of megas on 2017 but put them back in 2018. It's not obsolete or forgotten their just shifting their focus (I'm honestly sick of seeing mega kangaskan and the primals in tournaments so this is a rather refreshing change for me). |
I can see the logic of some of the stuff you're saying here but I really don't think we can give the games hate before they've even come out. And imo the good far outweighs the bad as far as Sun and Moon are concerned.
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We've already been confirmed pokemon games for the NX, so no, pokemon isn't dying out anytime soon.
As for megas, I'm guessing it's because they are overpowered (like kangaskhan) or you just won't be able to get the stones yet. And alolan forms? Based on what we've seen, it looks like they evolve with stones, so in gen 8, we just need to find an ice stone to get alolan Ninetales, then breed to get alolan vulpix. And just because we're not in alola doesn't mean there can't be new forms. If we do get that Sinnoh remake, there could very well be Sinnoh forms. |
Pokémon is a JRPGs, and with JRPGs, gamers mostly care for deeper storylines, which is why games like Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Xenogear, Mother 3, and Persona 3 were highly acclaimed by critics and fans alike. But according to a fellow friend of mine from Disquis, the story is the least interesting part of Pokémon, because the main focus is just trying to catch all Pokémon, which gets more and more difficult with new Pokémon introduced.
I'll just link my article on Disquis discussing the debate between fans who want more single player experience vs. fans who want a better competitive experience, so I won't have to copy/paste what I said from that thread. I would say this though, about how reading these replies made me sad about people complain about the Pokémon formula being stale and repetitive yet complain about the rest of Nintendo's games for deriving from their formulas. *coughZeldacough* |
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... Then again, I never really found the Pokémon formula "stale" either. |
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First off, "There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it." Um..no. First off, the formula should've been changed by gen 4. The formula is not well-structured. In theory it is a good idea, but the only reason it worked was because it was new and something not done yet. Outside of theory, the execution has been a bit lackluster to say the least. You are supposed to tell me that a little kid is supposed to be responsible for taking care of a whole town? I understand that not all gym leaders are little kids and I also know that an 11 year-old kid going on a journey is stupid enough( I can get by it for the sake of the game), but at least with the trial Captains, they have to be approved by some SYSTEM to be a Captain. In generation 4, Riley, a partner trainer, states that the League invited him to be a part of the E4, but he declined! What is preventing any idiot from joining the league for the sake of some evil plan or beating the Champion for some evil plan. Oh wait, it didn't stop N and Team Plasma. Not to mention that after you become the champion, that you don't even do anything champion related. You just kinda wander around doing nothing but battling harder trainers. You don't even get to battle possible Champion candidates even though YOU have the title. The original Red and Green is even worse with this as after beating the game, there is nothing to do, but complete the Pokedex, which is a pain if you don't have friends. This is "well-structured"? This is "consistent"? Even in Pokemon land this makes little sense. As for lore, have you even looked at the Pokedex? Sheninja is supposed to suck out the soul of people who look at it from behind, but in battle, you see it from behind ALL THE TIME. In Pokemon Fire Red, a research team supposedly found remnants of Mew in South America....you know... a country that should not exist in the Pokemon World because it was never once established (in the games) that the continents we know exist in Pokemon? There are hundreds of plotholes in Pokemon like this, but I can't go over them in such little time, so here's a link to one of the many videos that point this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PH-hhKNkNs "where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it." Okay, I admit that Pokemon has become more complicated than it's roots, but that doesn't make it a bad thing. Pokemon needs to grow for the sake of getting a bigger audience. It wouldn't be here today if Pokemon didn't try to expand. I understand that it could be a bit jarring, but you should at least give it a chance. "For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements." No...Pokemon, the creatures you battle with, is what made Pokemon, "Pokemon" the battles, are what make Pokemon "Pokemon". I guess your definition of what makes Pokemon is different than mine, but in some sort of stretch, In media, the anime is what forms people's perception of Pokemon. You don't necessarily need the gym battles and E4 to make a pokemon game. That's why Pokemon Colosseum and XD exist as a well as the Mystery Dungeon series and Conquest. I will agree that you do know what to expect in Pokemon and that additions to the lore are good, but that's the problem, the meat of the issue: Pokemon has had the same formula for 20 years. I know if it's not broken, don't fix it, but the gym leader/E4/Champion system is broken. You can easily beat one gym leader( with very few exceptions) with one Pokemon. Even as a kid, I knew that you could do that. As a result, the challenge becomes non-existent. I know that Pokemon is geared towards kids, but kids are not stupid and can easily figure out the stuff I did. Also: "Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements." This line confuses me. Are you trying to say that lore was/is only speculation and that it should stay that way? What?( no, seriously, please correct me on this). What makes gen 7 negate from other generations? Please tell me. I haven't once seen gen 7 say that Mewtwo doesn't exist or some sort of shit like that. In ORAS, they did change a bunch of stuff including parts of the lore, but that was only for THEIR LEGENDARIES, NO ONE ESLE. How does Groudon and Kyorge affect anything from before but the original games or Ruby or Sapphire? Why should Gamefreak not try to expand on the lore? How is that a bad thing? "Fast forward to ORAS. In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless." First of all, the multiple timeline story has been blown way out of proportion. It is NOT CANON Zinnia implied it could be canon. It's just that every person and their mother saw what she said and took it as fact when in reality it's just speculation. Say what you want, but that the truth. For the sake of the argument, if it is canon, who cares if it broke the timeline in 2? It's half-ass, but at least there was some semblance of trying to explain why Mega evolution exists and why we haven't seen it yet. Plus, the theory never stated that the past gens stories did not happen. All the theory is, is that there are two timelines. That's it. The rest is just speculation. Also, how are the old games worthless? ORAS was simply a remake of the original games. If they really wanted to make it worthless they would never reference the old games ever in any way, shape, or form, which they have done. As for Megas...I'll get to that in a moment. "Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another." This probably ticks me off the most in my opinion. What is wrong with trying something different that is good for the sake of the franchise. Please tell me. Because all I see is someone complaining that the franchise is changing and not giving any solutions on how it could change for the better. "Trials" may be common in other rpgs, but keep in mind we barely have any side quests in Pokemon that don't include trading or a legendary Pokemon involved. Plus, we don't even know how they will work( not in the order-sense is what I mean). As for Alolan forms, they do not go against Pokemon lore, it supports it. Pokemon are the "animals" of the world in the games. It has been proven in-game that Pokemon of all shapes and sizes can adapt to the environment and change form/colour/type. Why should Eevee be the only Pokemon to change? In reality, Eevee is not special by any means. In fact, because of evolution, Eevee is pretty normal in the world, but I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that animals adapting is normal. Also, how do these forms make the original Pokemon obsolete? I'm still going to love my regular Vulpix like many other people. Changing the stats/ appearance of these Pokemon won't change that fact, in fact, it makes people love them more because they have a new variety that they wouldn't have had as their own type. Plus, Gamefreak is trying to give a new spin to old Pokemon that need it. The only time I heard of people talking about Marowak was the whole Cubone's mother thing. Now, people might actually get invested and use a Marowak. It might not be the original, but that it their choice. "Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another." First off, you are once again believing speculation to be fact. We don't know if ultra beast are uncatchable. I even checked the offical Pokemon site and Serebii.com. It doesn't say that they are not cathable. All the sites say are that they could pose a threat to humans/pokemon implying they are not Pokemon. Also, what? Ultra Beast are not Pokemon from what we know so far and you are confusing me with, "Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with" Please explain. "And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why." Seriously calling new games a trainwreck before they come out? Nice. Also, Megas should be banned for tournaments. Say what you will, but in my opinion, Megas are too Op and people probably don't want to see the same set of Mega Kangaskan every time they battle someone in tournaments. It's not that they aren't interested in making new ones. For a game company, you are right, it makes no sense to make almost 50 new designs and buffs for Pokemon and not use them, but have you ever thought that they just don't want the focus on Megas this gen? It may seem odd, but with the whole new influx of Pokemon and Alolan forms maybe Pokemon doesn't want Megas to take up all the spotlight. You can still obtain them with the new Pokemon Wifi thing( can't remember at the moment) in Sun and Moon with BP and before you complain, we don't know how hard it will be to obtain BP in SuMo and with Pokemon Bank it's super easy to grind for BP. "This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. " It's not that inconsistent really. I admit, I was skeptical on whether Megas would return, but I knew that couldn't be the case as they are so popular. If there is one thing I think we can both agree on it's that, Pokemon Company likes getting money. The reason we got Ash-Greninja is because it is so damn popular. Megas are way too popular/profitable to just be gone next gen. They may not make new ones for this gen as they want to focus on other stuff than Megas, but that is Pokemon Company's choice. (I already mentioned my thoughts on the timeline above so no comment here). "It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why." First of all, Pokemon is taking a new direction because there is a new director named Shigeru Ohmori. He has very different plans for Sun and Moon and for more thoughts here's a link: http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/ohmori/ I can't speak for Pokemon Company but I'm sure that they know what they are doing(unlike X and Y which just felt rushed, but that's a conversation for another day) This isn't like Gen 6 when it was the first time Pokemon was using 3d models and graphics, this game clearly has more experienced people working with the franchise finding out what works and what doesn't. "This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why." There are certain features that don't stay with each gen like the Pokenav/Poketch but those are relatively small and don't affect the gameplay. I get the concern with Z moves, but let's put this into perspective. Alola is a remote tropical island. If Z-crystals are certain special crystals that can only be found in Alola, I feel that would make the most sense. Once again, this is specultion and for all that happens they could be gone in gen 8, but I doubt it. Z-moves affect the gameplay severely. Now, you have to worry about your opponent using a Z-move. They wouldn't drop it unless it wasn't popular or didn't help anything. "My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected. Sorry to break this to you, but as I stated before, Pokemon has always been inconsistent. The reason why it gets away with it is because there is much more to Pokemon than it being inconsistent. Because people can enjoy the game for what it is, it doesn't matter if Pokemon is somewhat inconsistent. All people care about is that the game can be good DESPITE it's inconsistencies. Are there things that most likely will stay like Mega Evolutions? Yeah, but I can't predict the future, just like no one else can. As much as people try, Pokemon is pretty hard to track down on trends. I can't even think about what they might do next. However, it's best not to judge the worse of the franchise just because it seems different. Please tell me, what do you want in a Pokemon game? From what you've written you clearly have a distaste for Pokemon SuMo right now. So....what do you want then? What do want changed? Please tell me so I can understand because right now, I don't know what fans like you want. "We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games." True and False. Yes, I buy Pokemon games because I want to play Pokemon, but on the other hand no... I buy Pokemon games because of the Pokemon/features. I don't just buy it because it has the formula, if I did, then I wouldn't try the spinoffs like many other people. People, including me, buy Pokemon games for fun. If Pokemon Sun and Moon didn't look to be fun, I would not have any interest in it. I do have interest because Pokemon is trying something outside it's comfort zone and I'm curious to see how it is. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, Pokemon learns not to do it again. However, I need to stress that we don't know how these games are going to be like yet, so it's best not to be extremely negative about it. ( Not to say you aren't allowed to have an opinion, you have every right to one, this is just how I feel--in other words my opinion). "It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected." Wait...so you are aware that Pokemon is getting stale? I'm confused now. You stated earlier: "For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". So, I assumed that you probably thought that the new changes to Pokemon could be bad, but now they aren't? What? I probably stated this too much already but once again, please explain. How is Pokemon transforming into something it's not? As long as it is under the Pokemon label it is Pokemon. You can believe otherwise and have every right to, but that's how it is. Also, Pokemon Company can do whatever they want for their 20th Anniversary games. There's no set-in stone about what they have to do. If they want to change the formula and add references in honor of the 20th Anniversary, they have every right to do it. The game is still going to sell as long as there isn't any huge bug or something like that. Lastly,Pokemon is not neglecting the older games, that is a lie. Pokemon has always had some sort of reference to older games. Gen 2 is practically an entire homage to gen 1, with almost everything Kanto put into it. Gen 3 has Pikachu and the first bug Pokemon found in the same forest. Gen 3 also has post-game Safari zone with Gen 2 Pokemon in it. Gen 4 has an Eevee given out to you and the early bug pokemon being from Gen 3( Wurmple). In Platinum, they added more Gen 2 Pokemon such as Houndour. In the recent games, Gen 6, the game with arguably the most references to gen 1, you got: -The first forest made up of the same layout as Viridian Forest, including the first bug Pokemon in the game, a rare encounter of Pikachu, and being a lush forest. - You get the choose the KANTO STARTERS SPECIFICALLY. - The KANTO STARTERS also get Mega Evolutions and Charizard gets 2. - You get to capture the KANTO LEGENDARIES post-game - There is a cave in which you get to capture Mewtwo, a Pokemon that you could also capture in the original Red and Green...in Cerulean Cave. - Mewtwo gets 2 Mega Evolutions and finally, a majority of non-Kalos Pokemon in Gen 6 are from Kanto. In Gen 7 we also got Kanto Pokemon getting Alola forms( we don't know if it's exclusive yet, but who knows at this point) and Pokemon Snap 2.0 I'm pretty sure Pokemon wouldn't have put any of these references in if they didn't care about the older games. They don't have to put in something akin to, " Red exists in Kanto and he's really strong" just to prove that they care about the other games. I think the fact they went out of there way to make it clear that they love Kanto/any previous gen is more than enough proof that they haven't forgotten anything on purpose. |
I love threads like these ones, its just the clear hop onto the bandwagon of hate and salt because someone can't just realize things change can become different overtime.
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You can't review a game without first having played it. Look at what happened to No Man's Sky. Hype bandwagons are never a true prediction of a games' quality.
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I was successful with my post. The goal was just that, to stir up debate!
Although these are truly my opinions. Quoting everything is too hard, let's split the points: 1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS). 2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to. 3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game. 4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions. 5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing. 6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P |
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2. Who's to say some of the Trials can't take place in cities? And technically speaking, N wasn't really the "Champion" in BW, as he only became so just as you entered in. 3. No real argument here, but I hope you can earn enough money to get the games to see if they turn out better than you think. 4. Also no argument here. 5. For starters, they aren't abondoning Mega Evolutions any time soon, so Z-Crystals aren't a replacement. And your examples aren't exactly the best, as Ice/Fairy Ninetails and Normal/Dark Raticate aren't as good defensively. And besides, if the old 'Mons aren't good, then why wouldn't you want to be spruced up? 6. ... Explain. |
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