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-   -   Sun/Moon signal the sad death of Pokémon as we know it (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=380007)

Altairis October 8th, 2016 2:41 PM

Why is the trend of "Pokemon is ruined" a popular thing to think? Not going to lie I barely read these posts anymore because none of them ever make sense. Why is Pokemon getting ruined because of these changes? Are you guys really that opposed to change?

Rivvon October 8th, 2016 2:56 PM

Why do people think Trial Captains are a big departure for the series? They're just Gym Leader but instead of being inside a Gym they're in the Great Outdoors™. And even then, Pokémon is a series that can literally rest on its own laurels. Just because Trial Captains are a thing in SM doesn't mean we'll never see Gym Leaders again--the next games could just as easily go back to having Gym Leaders.

The only thing I can understand concern over is the lack of new Mega Evolutions because if they keep introducing major new mechanics every gen (Megas in gen 6, regional differences in gen 7, Pokémon games on motorcycles in gen 8) it can become very overwhelming very fast (look at what happened to Yu-Gi-Oh! creating a new summoning method every few years). It would be much better to add to Megas rather than making Z-Moves and Z-Forms and Z-Dances and all that jazz, but at the same time SM are just one set of games. If we get another set of games without new Megas, then I'd start to worry. But for the time being there's no real basis to say that we'll never see new Megas in the future.

Honestly there really isn't any reason to say the changes brought about in SM signal anything about the series changing for good. Alola forms are just form changes, Trial Captains are just Gym Leaders; same things as always, but with a new coat of paint. The only thing really "different" are UB's, but even then they may just turn out to be regular ol' legendary Pokémon but with a new classification.

That being said, if you don't like the way the games are shaping out--then that's fine. There's no way you'll like every single game. And you're certainly not obligated to play a game that doesn't seem to interest you. But I don't think the things SM are doing are inherently going to change the series forever, because nothing is really being changed. At least, not to the extent that people are making it out to be.

NohBuddy2016 October 8th, 2016 3:09 PM

Pokemon will never die cause we live in a world where ignorance is bliss, and die hard lovers of this series will keep on buying their games just cause it is Pokemon.

Not to mention, most people these days will buy games just so they stay in the loop or so they can keep gaming with their friends... cause let's be honest, when was the last time a friend of yours said "hey, can you bring over your Gameboy Color so we can trade pokemon to evolve them?"

Hell, I haven't heard that in years. Now that gaming is becoming more multiplayer oriented, people will keep buying games they don't even like... just so they can actually play the newest game with their friends.

Out of all my friends, I am the only one that still owns and plays a Gameboy Color, thus... I don't game with them much cause I can't afford spending cash on that which isn't a necessity for survival.

clbgolden October 8th, 2016 3:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NohBuddy2016 (Post 9441318)
Pokemon will never die cause we live in a world where ignorance is bliss, and die hard lovers of this series will keep on buying their games just cause it is Pokemon.

Not to mention, most people these days will buy games just so they stay in the loop or so they can keep gaming with their friends... cause let's be honest, when was the last time a friend of yours said "hey, can you bring over your Gameboy Color so we can trade pokemon to evolve them?"

Hell, I haven't heard that in years. Now that gaming is becoming more multiplayer oriented, people will keep buying games they don't even like... just so they can actually play the newest game with their friends.

Out of all my friends, I am the only one that still owns and plays a Gameboy Color, thus... I don't game with them much cause I can't afford spending cash on that which isn't a necessity for survival.

Uh, first off, I doubt many people buy Pokémon just because it's Pokémon. By that logic, then spin-off games would sell a lot more than they do "because it's Pokémon".

Second... Who actually only plays a game just to appeal to their friends? Of course their may be couple few, but you make it sound like a majority.

NohBuddy2016 October 8th, 2016 3:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9441327)
Uh, first off, I doubt many people buy Pokémon just because it's Pokémon. By that logic, then spin-off games would sell a lot more than they do "because it's Pokémon".

Second... Who actually only plays a game just to appeal to their friends? Of course their may be couple few, but you make it sound like a majority.

Well, this logic doesn't apply to just Pokemon. Most games that seem to never end are owned by those kind of people. Saying that because certain games were not sold as much is irrelevant, since most people probably are not that stupid to throw money away just cause in the first place. Maybe 1 in 100 are like this, but not the masses.

RetroPokeman October 8th, 2016 4:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achromatic (Post 9440978)
I'm convinced that at this stage people will pick apart anything Pokémon does simply because they're refusing to let go of childhood nostalgia and can't accept the series is growing and expanding beyond the basic concept. Such a shame, because I believe if they actually gave it 2 seconds of a chance for real they'd actually enjoy it. Not that it's even out yet, haha. :(

I've been around since the start and I'm THRILLED with how things are going. We're not losing what we had, we're getting more with it. I don't see why people are complaining about trial captains. They're just gym leaders with a new name and a fresh coat of paint.

clbgolden October 8th, 2016 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NohBuddy2016 (Post 9441354)
Well, this logic doesn't apply to just Pokemon. Most games that seem to never end are owned by those kind of people. Saying that because certain games were not sold as much is irrelevant, since most people probably are not that stupid to throw money away just cause in the first place. Maybe 1 in 100 are like this, but not the masses.

Well, the way you described it it sounded like you meant the masses.

NohBuddy2016 October 8th, 2016 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9441434)
Well, the way you described it it sounded like you meant the masses.

My apologies for that, not exactly great at wording everything.

Caaethil October 9th, 2016 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9440178)
There was once a series with a well-structured formula

So it's true. You really can't please everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9440296)
Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Wrong. It's alienating you and the core fanbase is embracing it. Frankly, I don't think we'll miss the few players who hate change so much. You've had six generations of the same you can play through again if you'd like.

Dunsparce October 9th, 2016 5:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altairis (Post 9441297)
Why is the trend of "Pokemon is ruined" a popular thing to think? Not going to lie I barely read these posts anymore because none of them ever make sense. Why is Pokemon getting ruined because of these changes? Are you guys really that opposed to change?

It's not a trend, it's a part of the fandom. Every time we get a new gen there are always people that say that the series is ruined. Probably the biggest one in memory is the release of Ruby and Sapphire. GB/GBC games were unable to communicate with GBA games in any way, which basically meant that all of your 1st and 2nd gen Pokemon were stuck there. Additionally only 67 of the previous 251 Pokemon were available, and suddenly the Pokedex had a different numbering system, making some people think that 184 Pokemon were retconned out of existence(Luckily cheat devices eventually revealed they were in the coding, but no one could figure out how they would be obtained due to how the series had worked previously since in Pokemon GSC certain iconic kanto Pokemon were only obtainable by trading with 1st gen).

Eventually things settled down and people accepted that the Gameboy Advance games were starting everything anew(Enough so that some thought Diamond and Pearl would be incompatible with the 3rd gen games when they were first announced).

Rai October 9th, 2016 6:32 AM

The Pokemon series has used the same formula for literally 20 years... I think it is healthy for the game to get an overhaul. Making changes isn't going to kill Pokemon... it's actually going to help keep it alive.

janejane6178 October 9th, 2016 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai (Post 9442139)
The Pokemon series has used the same formula for literally 20 years... I think it is healthy for the game to get an overhaul. Making changes isn't going to kill Pokemon... it's actually going to help keep it alive.

I think that changes might be good but ONLY if they r for the best.
I dont have problem with the new formula as long as its challenging and intruging enough.

Thunderflare October 9th, 2016 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyNewbie (Post 9440296)
Couldn't have said it better, myself. {:3}

Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Judging by the overwhelmingly possitive reaction to any and all Sun and Moon news, it seems like they are not alienating their core fanbase, but appealing to them. Pokemon Go has been a monumental success and Game Freak is using that to remind people that Pokemon is still a thing and has been growing up. But you seem to think all Pokemon fans don't want to grow up because they're ToysRus kids or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus87 (Post 9441144)
1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS).

2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to.

3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game.

4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions.

5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing.

6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P

1: So you don't even want to admit that ORAS are canon? Well to bad, princess. They're canon whether you like them or not. And does that mean you hate a fan theory just because most of the evidence comes from those games? That sounds really petty and egotistical.

2: In Pokemon Go, there are no gyms. Despite being completely against that formula, it has more than 500 million downloads, surpassing all other free-to-play games. Its quite clear that the Pokemon themselves are what matters most to people. The purpose of the gyms was to teach people how the game works, a role that can easily be taken by a school or a mentor. I understand being concerned with these changes, but don't pre-judge the game. You haven't even played the demo.

3: Well, that's a perfectly rational reason not to get the game. You'll also be able to see how the game does overall before buying it (or not buy it, if it turns out awful).

4: Which made the alternate forms pointless for anyone except for completionists. Tell me what do I get for having all forms of Unown? Certainly not 28 great Pokemon. Makes more sense to differentiate the forms by more than just looks.

5: The reason they took so long to talk about Mega-evolution is because they had a ton of NEW stuff they wanted to show off. There seem to be no new megas and they want to bring in some new mechanics, so why focus on stuff they aren't even going to improve? They wanted to show how Sun and Moon were different first. Now to explain each new feature to you.

How are Z-moves like Mega-evolution? Both do require an item to be held by the Pokemon and you can only activate one per battle, so they are similar that way. But Z-moves don't change the Pokemon, just give it a fifth move slot with 1 PP. Mega-evolution stays the way it is until the Pokemon drops or the battle ends. Very different mechanics, though both are built on how Pokemon battles work.

The purpose of the Alolan forms is to make different ways to use old Pokemon. They want to expand on the game in various different ways. In fact, that's a lot more like Mega-evolution than Z-moves are. The difference is that Alolan Pokemon can be used in Little Cups.

6: That's actually very telling. You seem to dislike the idea of the games getting more complex and express a liking of the most simplified and easy game in the franchise. Not that enjoying X and Y is bad, just that combined with what you say about Sun and Moon.

Pinkie-Dawn October 9th, 2016 12:49 PM

Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

Ducolamia October 9th, 2016 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9442601)
Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

To be fair, the GCN games have their flaws, but they still have some popularity. Personally, while I like the GCN games, they aren't that huge in my experience with Pokemon. I personally don't praise the games on a pedestal( because some parts of those game haven't aged well), but I think what draws people to them is how it was a little different than something like Pokemon Stadium. It might not be much, but I speculate that people were starting to want something more of the franchise after that game came out.

I personally want a change to the franchise because while I have fun with it, I know Gamefreak can do more to make the games even better. I guess the reception people have now is that they know what they don't want, but don't know what they do want. It's probably more of a problem with any fanbase really. Some people want "this" and some people want "that".

mew_nani October 9th, 2016 5:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9442601)
Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

The GCN games to be fair did add some things to the table like Shadow Pokemon and being more mature than other games as well as having a wild west motif. I personally would love Shadow Pokemon to return but eh.

Though what do spinoffs have to do with Pokemon games basically reusing the same general structure over and over? You don't even need to play any spinoffs to see how things work. In Gen I it was revolutionary. Go catch Pokemon! Fill a Pokedex! Get Gym badges! Beat an evil team! Become the champion! Gen II did the exact same thing, with the added bonus of getting 8 more badges and exploring Kanto again so it was just fine. Gen III... same exact thing as Gen I except in Emerald you fought two evil teams instead of one and got access to the Battle Frontier, and in Firered asnd Leafgreen you went to the Sevii Islands and wrecked Team Rocket and found precious stones. Gen IV was also like Gen III except you got to go to the Torn World and got access a Battle Frontier that was connected to a bigger island where you could beat up Team Galactic again. Gen V was like Gen I, except we got PWT and the story was actually very good and important and we got new places to explore, and Gen VI was just a half-baked version of Gen I and III with no Battle Frontier and with a convoluted timeline plot involving Mega Evolution. The only thing special about it was the lore.

Do you see a pattern here? All of the main games followed the exact same structure: fill a Pokedex, get badges, beat an evil team, save the world, become Champion. Maybe the places you can go are different, maybe the evil team is different, maybe the Pokemon you can catch are different, but in the end you're doing the same things over and over again. The only generations that shook up this formula were Gen II for adding a second quest and Gen V for having the main story front and center. Is it any wonder why people are getting bored? Playing through a Pokemon game the first time is an amazing experience, but after so many repeats of the same thing it gets a bit stale. Gen VI didn't help things by having an underdeveloped region, a poor man's version of Team Galactic, a tacked on aesop about resorce scarcity that didn't belong, too much handholding, and shoehorning in a feature without fully explaining what it is or exploring the implications of this feature (Mega Evolution, if anyone's curious.)

Z25 October 9th, 2016 5:17 PM

Alright I've just got to comment on how ridiculous this is.

The series is changing after 20 yrs so it's not the same old thing?

Whoa it's like you don't want the interest to increase. Switching the formula up a bit was a brilliant move. It brought plenty of people in or back. The game's are still the same. Trials are gyms with other elements of the games adding in so they aren't boring and actually fun. And gyms already were your typical rpg boss, they just add a puzzle to it.

Next, does the timeline really matter at this point? No one cares at all, and it's a jumbled mess as is. The old games being obsolete shouldn't surprise you. The games are meant to do better and better then past entries. It's not like your gameboy games are playable physically on the 3ds. It's been 10 yrs since DP, the series wanted to better itself. Timeline means absolutely nothing and shouldn't be mentioned here.

Next:

Alolan forms are OP, better forms?


Really.....

We know nothing of any of their stats yet, their competitive standing, or if they are even good. Also every Alolan form outside of Raichu has a X4 weakness to something so far. They'll be decimated by that type, essentially nerfing them.

Now:

Megas, again the community brought this upon themselves. With all the hate over the overpoweredness of megas, Pokemon took the best action they could. Every single team at the VGC was the same exact team! No one liked that, and wanted diversity. Also megas were the big gen 6 focus, sun and moon's is Z moves. Which you won't see new ones in gen 8. So get used to new features being introduced and show off for one gen. It's what they do to make new battling styles and experiences for players.


Lastly the series is ever changing and always will be. It wants to stay fresh and not wear it's gimmicks out. All of these complaints you have were done to make the gameplay new and exciting for players and to brighten their play experience. They'll continue to find ways to please fans and offer awesome new content. Consistency is never a thing outside of new features, so you should get used to it if your going to be playing future games, as they need to keep switching up the games to make them better overall.

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 9442897)
Gen VI didn't help things by having an underdeveloped region, a poor man's version of Team Galactic, a tacked on aesop about resorce scarcity that didn't belong, too much handholding, and shoehorning in a feature without fully explaining what it is or exploring the implications of this feature (Mega Evolution, if anyone's curious.)

... I don't recall that part from XY.

mew_nani October 9th, 2016 6:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9442973)
... I don't recall that part from XY.

It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 6:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 9442997)
It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

Eh... The theme itself seems to be very subtle.

However, looking at some of Lysandre's dialogue you are right about Flare complaining about the "lack of resources". This probably could've been executed better if they gave Lysandre a better backstory (but then again most if not all of the evil team leaders suffer from that)...

Pinkie-Dawn October 9th, 2016 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mew_nani (Post 9442997)
It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 7:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9443052)
And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

I wouldn't really say wiping everyone (except Flare) off the face of the Earth is the most orthodox way of "saving the world".

destinedjagold October 9th, 2016 7:32 PM

About the Megavolutions being banned in the upcoming VGC, methinks the reason for that is to give the Alolan 'dex 'mons a chance to shine. Iirc, the only 'mons that can be used in VGC when XY were released were only those caught/bred/received in XY. So now, a new generation is rolling out so they're simply redoing what they did with VGC when XY came out; they're giving Gen7's Alolan 'dex a chance, wherein Z-Moves are the focus rather than Megavolutions.

Also, methinks there won't be any new megavolutions in Gen7 hence why they're banned. Meh~

Pinkie-Dawn October 9th, 2016 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbgolden (Post 9443065)
I wouldn't really say wiping everyone (except Flare) off the face of the Earth is the most orthodox way of "saving the world".

But it is for our world, since we've pretty much used up almost every resources and are close to turning our planet into Mars 2.0, and the Earth will heal itself if we wiped ourselves off the planet, which Lysandre was doing.

clbgolden October 9th, 2016 8:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn (Post 9443107)
But it is for our world, since we've pretty much used up almost every resources and are close to turning our planet into Mars 2.0, and the Earth will heal itself if we wiped ourselves off the planet, which Lysandre was doing.

I'm pretty sure a giant laser beam that would probably be shot over 6,000 miles from the surface and then crash back down would do more harm than good to the planet.


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