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-   -   Why did they change everything up so much? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=382295)

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 4:03 AM

Why did they change everything up so much?
 
It's not even going to feel like a Pokemon game by removing the regular formula of gyms and such. Also why go overkill with alola forms and special moves? We already have mega evolution, each generation seems to be getting worse and worse, granted gen 6 was pretty good, but I'm not so sure I'll enjoy this gen. Also this is minor but I really dislike the whole battle layout.

http://www.nintendowire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Pokemon-SunMoon-BattleRoyal.jpg

It'll still probably end up being decent, but removing the simple concept of all other Pokemon games is going to be a problem for the casual players like myself, gen 6 took me ages to find out how all the new stuff worked (O powers, mega evolutions, Battle points, ect ect..) Also Ash-greninja? They trying to make a 2016 power rangers inspired game by having human/pokemon fusions?

One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion.

P.s. I have the demo and I heard there's items that you can send to the full game, do I just have to play through to get them all or is there side quests you have to do? If someone could let me know how to get the demo items that would be great, already have the ash greninja.

blue November 7th, 2016 4:32 AM

Changing up the formula can be a good thing, it prevents the franchise from feeling repetitive. I don't think removing Gyms is that much of a big deal if it has been replaced by something else. At least we have the Island Trial Challenge in place to compensate for the removal of them which, if anything, will provide even more content as each trial takes seemingly longer than a traditional Gym Puzzle and battle. The good thing about trials is that both old and new fans will get a completely new experience with them. As for the games as a whole, I don't think the formula has been changed drastically when compared to past titles. We're still traveling through a new region, capturing new Pokémon, collecting items and training up a team. We still have rivals, a professor, an evil team and so forth.

It's fine that you have your own opinion, I'd just wait until actually trying out these new features before putting them down. You might be surprised and find that all these new features change the gameplay for the better.

All the demo questions can be answered in this thread. (:

VitalEcho November 7th, 2016 4:52 AM

I'm a bit in the same box. I've been playing Pokemon since Red & Blue and after taking a short break through the Black/White Generation I jumped back into it. I also found it a bit hard to wrap my head around all the new features and such. Mega-Evolution in particular was something I really didn't like at first. Since then it's actually grown on me quite a lot and I'm very disappointed they don't seem to be offering new mega evolutions for Alola.

I agree with being uncomfortable with the sheer amount of change. This Gen isn't just new features, it's shaking up the base formula. But like Mega evolutions, I may learn to love it. From what I can tell it looks like the island trials are basically Gym Battles, with a few mini-quests prior. The 'Kahuna' seems to basically be a gym leader. It seems to remind me of the orange islands series, with the Orange crew. If they keep this style specific to the Alolan region then I'll be good with it. I'm just hoping they go back to gyms with the following generation.

Can't say I like Z-Moves, but I get that it's intended to make some lesser used pokemon more viable. It just disappoints me that they seem to have chosen Z-moves over continuing Mega-Evolution.

Nah November 7th, 2016 6:29 AM

People have always been scared of change really.

Yet at the same time, it's a necessary part of life.

It's still going to be, at its core, a Pokemon game. The basics are still there: kid gets starter Pokemon from professor, journeys around the whole region, catching them all, stomping the local mafia, and somehow beating a slew of much more experienced trainers.

I don't care for the Battle Royale tho

Hikamaru November 7th, 2016 7:16 AM

Nah nails it here, people just can't stand drastic changes sometimes and I actually felt the same way as most people when I first heard about Gyms being non-existent in Alola (granted I was reading leaks and rumours) and when we got it confirmed with the reveal of Trial Captains, I had to definitely praise Game Freak for doing something different with the formula for once. Like Angelica said a few posts earlier, some of us were sick of Gyms and wanted a switch-up, and I've now read the focus on nature in the Alola region was part of the reason why we've been getting all these changes to the gameplay formula.

I feel Trial Captains will only be for Alola and we'll get Gyms back in the 8th Gen region, but you do have to praise Game Freak for experimenting with new concepts for this game. Like Nah said, despite all the changes to the formula for this game, we still gave other things that aren't changing.

TrendyHipsta November 7th, 2016 7:32 AM

It's going to feel like a Pokémon game. You know why? Because Pokémon is all about evolving with new adventures, making new friends on the way, and new TRIALS to overcome.

What else would a Pokémon game would be?

Rivvon November 7th, 2016 8:23 AM

Trial Captains "replacing" Gym Leaders may just be a thing in Alola and nothing more, so even if you may be apprehensive about how much you enjoy SM, I wouldn't worry too much about what it means for subsequent games--Gym Leaders could very well come back.

As for adding Alola forms and Z-Moves, I don't mind them both being implemented in SM, but I do hope that they ease up on the new raw mechanics for gen 8, and instead add to the ones they have (more regional variations, Z-Moves, and Megas, as opposed to ignoring them and making something all-new). Not because I have a problem with them adding new things, but the truth of the matter is, if they keep adding new mechanics in such rapid succession, the risk of power creep is increased (best practical example of this: Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG). But maybe for gen 8 they won't add tons of new mechanics and just improve and add to what they already have--but that in all honesty has nothing to do with SM, that would be up to gen 8.

So yeah I get why you'd be apprehensive about SM but just think of it as all these things are confined to SM alone. Even something like the battle layout that you say you dislike--this HUD design is likely going to be exclusive to SM, too. If you play SM and like it, then yay, you liked it. If you play SM and don't like it, just remember the things you don't like about it will probably just apply to SM, and could possibly be changed in subsequent games.

PlatinumDude November 7th, 2016 9:06 AM

I don't see anything wrong with changing up the game formula. If anything, the island trials are the closest thing we have to gyms. Taking on gyms every generation could get a bit taxing, so I'm glad they're changing things up a bit.

JoyStar November 7th, 2016 9:07 AM

I actually like the changes, it keeps the games from feeling repetitive.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 9:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nah (Post 9478755)
People have always been scared of change really.

Yet at the same time, it's a necessary part of life.

It's still going to be, at its core, a Pokemon game. The basics are still there: kid gets starter Pokemon from professor, journeys around the whole region, catching them all, stomping the local mafia, and somehow beating a slew of much more experienced trainers.

I don't care for the Battle Royale tho

If I wanted to "stomp the local mafia" I'd buy Mafia 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivvon (Post 9478861)
Trial Captains "replacing" Gym Leaders may just be a thing in Alola and nothing more, so even if you may be apprehensive about how much you enjoy SM, I wouldn't worry too much about what it means for subsequent games--Gym Leaders could very well come back.

As for adding Alola forms and Z-Moves, I don't mind them both being implemented in SM, but I do hope that they ease up on the new raw mechanics for gen 8, and instead add to the ones they have (more regional variations, Z-Moves, and Megas, as opposed to ignoring them and making something all-new). Not because I have a problem with them adding new things, but the truth of the matter is, if they keep adding new mechanics in such rapid succession, the risk of power creep is increased (best practical example of this: Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG). But maybe for gen 8 they won't add tons of new mechanics and just improve and add to what they already have--but that in all honesty has nothing to do with SM, that would be up to gen 8.

So yeah I get why you'd be apprehensive about SM but just think of it as all these things are confined to SM alone. Even something like the battle layout that you say you dislike--this HUD design is likely going to be exclusive to SM, too. If you play SM and like it, then yay, you liked it. If you play SM and don't like it, just remember the things you don't like about it will probably just apply to SM, and could possibly be changed in subsequent games.

Nobody is being apprehensive. I clearly said that it would still end up being a decent game, but I liked playing though casually and for me the same formula each game is what made Pokemon so fun and unique to other games series for me, just my opinion. Besides even if they are changing things back, we'll likely have to wait another two years for the next Pokemon games after sun and moon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrendyHipsta (Post 9478800)
It's going to feel like a Pokémon game. You know why? Because Pokémon is all about evolving with new adventures, making new friends on the way, and new TRIALS to overcome.

What else would a Pokémon game would be?

Maybe the same thing that it has been for the past 20 years?

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9478668)
I can kind of get why people are apprehensive about the change, but on the other hand, I think the mere thought of "oh my god this doesn't feel like a pokemon game" is, no offense, ridiculous. I personally don't mind the removal of Gyms; I have said over and over again that Gyms are boring and out of six generations, only one (Gen V) generation was such that the Gym Leaders actually helped you in the plot without just being badgefodder.

Maybe the Trial Captains won't help you the plot either. Regardless, they'd still be a far more welcome change than keeping Gyms around.

Honestly though, being blunt for a second? I wish people wouldn't be so apprehensive. I don't get why people think this is something new; Game Freak has been changing Pokemon every generation. Gen II to Gen III? Gen III to Gen IV? So on and so forth; there was always something removed and something added and people didn't care. Now all of a sudden since Gyms are removed and Game Freak did... what Game Freak has done for the past six generations, people are now taking an issue with it? That's silly to me.

Approach the game with an open mind and then make the determination of whether or not the game is for you. But it's not really wise to jump to conclusions this early without giving the game a shot.

I'm fine with minor changes like they've done in the past (although wasn't too fond of mega evolution's but I can deal with that). It's the fact that they've made such a huge change by removing gyms, imagine if they removed Pokeball's and had a new way to catch Pokemon, or completely removed Pokemon centre's to make it Pokemon go-like

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 9:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 9478654)
Changing up the formula can be a good thing, it prevents the franchise from feeling repetitive. I don't think removing Gyms is that much of a big deal if it has been replaced by something else. At least we have the Island Trial Challenge in place to compensate for the removal of them which, if anything, will provide even more content as each trial takes seemingly longer than a traditional Gym Puzzle and battle. The good thing about trials is that both old and new fans will get a completely new experience with them. As for the games as a whole, I don't think the formula has been changed drastically when compared to past titles. We're still traveling through a new region, capturing new Pokémon, collecting items and training up a team. We still have rivals, a professor, an evil team and so forth.

It's fine that you have your own opinion, I'd just wait until actually trying out these new features before putting them down. You might be surprised and find that all these new features change the gameplay for the better.

All the demo questions can be answered in this thread. (:

Absolutely, I will try it out before putting it down. As I said it'll still end up being a decent game at the very least, I can just see it being a step down from the other Pokemon games, at least for me. But that doesn't mean it'll be a bad game or anything.

Are the Island challenges going to be considerably longer than gyms? When a new Pokemon game comes out I usually get both versions of the game and speedrun the first one I play, then take my time and do all the side quests on the next one, so would be a bit of a pain if the games as a whole we're something like twice as long. Although I know most people would love having a longer game, but as I said I'm just a casual player

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9478937)
it is the same thing it has been for the past 20 years. you catch pokemon, you challenge bosses, you beat them, you stomp the local bad guy team, you become champion. It's how you go about doing those things that can change.

Except there's no more gyms and with that I'm assuming no more badges to collect (unless the new challenges have badges). It would be like removing Pokeballs and giving us a new way to catch Pokemon.

Vidxad November 7th, 2016 10:06 AM

Honestly, I was so excited when I heard that it was all changing. I've been doing the same thing over and over since 1998, I've been ready for something different for about a decade and they are finally going to deliver that. I'm not sure how I feel about Z-moves just yet though, but considering it's a one time use attack, it can't shake up the game that much...hopefully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9478947)
Except there's no more gyms and with that I'm assuming no more badges to collect (unless the new challenges have badges). It would be like removing Pokeballs and giving us a new way to catch Pokemon.

That's not a fair comparison. You gave a complete overhaul to a core mechanic of the game. What they're doing is simply changing the challenges that you face on your journey to become the best trainer. Instead of traveling from gym to gym, your traveling from island challenge to island challenge. It's basically the same thing, just presented in a different way. I would hold off judgement until after you've played it.

Mikewind November 7th, 2016 10:14 AM

The way I see it Trails are just gyms with a new coat of paint. You still have puzzles that may or may not include battles. The first trial has you fighting yungoos/A-ratatta. At the end of a trial you fight a totem pokemon which is the same as a gym leader. That's how I see it anyway maybe I'm just biased.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9478954)
But idgi, you're saying this like Gyms are ousted permanently instead of just for this one game? The reason why Gyms aren't included in Alola is obvious: because it wouldn't fit in Alola; including Gyms would run contradictory to the point of Alola which has a culture that wouldn't really allow for Gyms to blend in easily.

If that was the case shouldn't they change Pokeballs to nets so it would be more fitting to Alola? Lol. Gyms could fit into anything, they could've just had them Hawaiian looking. Besides, it'll be around 2018 before a new Pokemon game is released, by which time I may not want to play Pokemon games, or any games at all for that matter since I'm now into my 20's and now only enjoy a few games, so it's likely that I'll be pretty much done with games completely by the time the next Pokemon game rolls round. But that's my problem I guess, either way the fact that they're bringing gyms back for the next games and only changing things up this significantly may be only for this generation is irrelevant if we're in the Sun and Moon discussions tbh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vidxad (Post 9478961)
That's not a fair comparison. You gave a complete overhaul to a core mechanic of the game. What they're doing is simply changing the challenges that you face on your journey to become the best trainer. Instead of traveling from gym to gym, your traveling from island challenge to island challenge. It's basically the same thing, just presented in a different way. I would hold off judgement until after you've played it.

I don't see how that's not a fair comparison, both gyms and Pokeball's have been in the game from the very start, it would just be like them replacing Pokeball's with let's say Pokenet's (Lol). But actually catching Pokemon with different tools is arguably less game changing than removing gyms since it wouldn't change anything story-line wise and would be just an aesthetic change for the most part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikewind (Post 9478964)
The way I see it Trails are just gyms with a new coat of paint. You still have puzzles that may or may not include battles. The first trial has you fighting yungoos/A-ratatta. At the end of a trial you fight a totem pokemon which is the same as a gym leader. That's how I see it anyway maybe I'm just biased.

What's totem Pokemon, is that yet another different form?

VitalEcho November 7th, 2016 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikewind (Post 9478964)
The way I see it Trails are just gyms with a new coat of paint. You still have puzzles that may or may not include battles. The first trial has you fighting yungoos/A-ratatta. At the end of a trial you fight a totem pokemon which is the same as a gym leader. That's how I see it anyway maybe I'm just biased.

My understanding was that you also fight the 'Kahuna' of the island after the Totem pokemon. Isn't a 'Kahuna' basically just another name for Gym Leader? Sooo.... just a bunch of side quests leading to a Gym leader. So no real change.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9478987)
Missing the point. Pokeballs are more or less universal; Gyms are not. The Alola region gives the impression that Gyms are fairly common among regions that are more urban; Unova is a good example of this as you see Gyms that are more individualized and larger and more unique than say, Gyms in other regions like Sinnoh and Hoenn and Johto who have all had more or less the same designs. The point being is that Gyms would stick out and look out of place in a region like Alola. If you disagree, so be it, but that's the reasoning.

Nope, they could have just made the gyms Hawaiian looking as I've said, like one of the towns in ORAS, I forget it's name.


Actually, no. It's relevant because if you're not happy with the changes in this generation, then wait for next generation. If you don't believe you'll have enough interest in Pokemon games to have the patience to wait until then, then I'm not sure what to tell you, that does seem more like a personal problem than anything else.

I've said this before in multiple threads, and I'll say this again: the core mechanics of how Pokemon functions will always be the same (catching Pokemon, communicating with people online, challenging stronger trainers, becoming Champion, etc), it's how we do those things that change from generation to generation. We challenge trainers of different types who give us different HMs to cross different obstacles each and every generation. This is not new. This is just another change as to how we become the Champion; it just fits better within the island culture of Alola.

Completely irrelevant, we're discussing Sun and Moon, not the next Pokemon games. Just because a change is only here for this generation doesn't mean I should not have an opinion on it and does not make it immune to criticism. Also I thought they were getting rid of the HM's?

Mikewind November 7th, 2016 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9478969)
If that was the case shouldn't they change Pokeballs to nets so it would be more fitting to Alola? Lol. Gyms could fit into anything, they could've just had them Hawaiian looking. Besides, it'll be around 2018 before a new Pokemon game is released, by which time I may not want to play Pokemon games, or any games at all for that matter since I'm now into my 20's and now only enjoy a few games, so it's likely that I'll be pretty much done with games completely by the time the next Pokemon game rolls round. But that's my problem I guess, either way the fact that they're bringing gyms back for the next games and only changing things up this significantly may be only for this generation is irrelevant if we're in the Sun and Moon discussions tbh.



I don't see how that's not a fair comparison, both gyms and Pokeball's have been in the game from the very start, it would just be like them replacing Pokeball's with let's say Pokenet's (Lol). But actually catching Pokemon with different tools is arguably less game changing than removing gyms since it wouldn't change anything story-line wise and would be just an aesthetic change for the most part.



What's totem Pokemon, is that yet another different form?

A totem pokemon is twice the size of its original counterpart and has boosted stats and will also call upon allies for aid when its hp reaches a certain point.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikewind (Post 9479000)
A totem pokemon is twice the size of its original counterpart and has boosted stats and will also call upon allies for aid when its hp reaches a certain point.

Great, that'll be fun. Lol

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9479008)
We're not discussing the next Pokemon games, idk what you're talking about ?_? I'm saying it's completely relevant how, if you don't like the way things are done this generation, you have the option of waiting until next generation. That is your option. Whether you like or dislike that option is irrelevant, but it's an option nonetheless if you wish to go down that route and see whether the changes that you seem to be wary off will apply to subsequent generations.

You can criticize the games by what you've seen so far, sure. You can have an opinion, sure. No one's saying that you can't. Just try the games out first to develop a more informed opinion to see whether or not they actually meet your expectations.

We kind of are since you're saying the gyms will likely make a return in the next Pokemon games. If they are bringing back gyms for future releases, then great. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I'm almost certain that all these changes will ruin this game to a certain extent for me. Nintendo have a new console out, so in my opinion they should have made a regular formula Pokemon game for the handheld (like they've always done) and made Sun and Moon for the Nintendo Switch, like they did with Pokemon Colosseum and Gale of darkness for gamecube.

Also what about mega-evolutions and O powers? We've spent the last three years having those features and now we've adapted to them they're going to throw them down the shit pan?

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9479030)
I'm saying if you don't like the changes, that is your option. That is completely relevant to this entire conversation that we're having right now. If you feel all the changes are going to ruin the games for you regardless, then I'm sorry you feel that way? Idk what else to really say to you here or what response you're really looking for, tbh.

I'm not looking for any response, I was just giving my opinion. No one held a gun to your head and made you comment on this thread (at least I hope not).

MEvos are still going to be in the game (albeit no new megas, so take that as you will), and I honestly haven't heard anyone using O-Powers since like...a year and a half ago.

I'm not looking for any response, just giving my opinion. No one was holding a gun to your head forcing you to comment on this thread (at least I hope not).

I'm pretty sure anyone trying to hatch shiny Pokemon with the Masuda method would be using the hatching O power, unless of course they find it fun to spend twice as long riding around on the bike. I forget what other O powers there were but some were useful.

Rivvon November 7th, 2016 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479041)
I'm pretty sure anyone trying to hatch shiny Pokemon with the Masuda method would be using the hatching O power, unless of course they find it fun to spend twice as long riding around on the bike. I forget what other O powers there were but some were useful.

As you said, the Hatching O-Power was one of the most helpful things and I used it very, very frequently. Others, like the Bargain O-Power, I used a lot, too. Since I did so much breeding I was always running low on funds so the Bargain O-Power helped when I needed to buy stuff to catch or chain for wild Pokémon.

But O-Powers have actually been in the games since gen 5--they were included in the Entralink, but not a lot of people made use of it, so they were a lot more low-key back then. Because of that, I have hope that, even though they haven't been mentioned as returning just yet, there's a chance that they're still in SM.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9479046)
Nah, but I can disagree with your opinion though. :o Isn't that the beauty of discussion?

Of course, I get many people will disagree with my opinion, but you're saying you don't know what response I'm looking for, no specific response in particular.

I guess that explains it. I don't really use the Masuda method and I don't concern myself much with it; I just hatch eggs the old fashioned way with Flame Body.

Of course, I get that many people will disagree with my opinion. But you're saying that you're unsure of what response I'm looking for, no specific response in particular.

Masuda method paired with hatching O power and flame body is a very fast and effective way of hatching high IV shiny Pokemon.

tokyodrift November 7th, 2016 11:58 AM

I think it's a great thing. To break the mold of the same formula to keep the game from getting stale and repetitive. They included things to help compensate for the removal of certain things.

Vidxad November 7th, 2016 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9478969)
If that was the case shouldn't they change Pokeballs to nets so it would be more fitting to Alola? Lol. Gyms could fit into anything, they could've just had them Hawaiian looking. Besides, it'll be around 2018 before a new Pokemon game is released, by which time I may not want to play Pokemon games, or any games at all for that matter since I'm now into my 20's and now only enjoy a few games, so it's likely that I'll be pretty much done with games completely by the time the next Pokemon game rolls round. But that's my problem I guess, either way the fact that they're bringing gyms back for the next games and only changing things up this significantly may be only for this generation is irrelevant if we're in the Sun and Moon discussions tbh.



I don't see how that's not a fair comparison, both gyms and Pokeball's have been in the game from the very start, it would just be like them replacing Pokeball's with let's say Pokenet's (Lol). But actually catching Pokemon with different tools is arguably less game changing than removing gyms since it wouldn't change anything story-line wise and would be just an aesthetic change for the most part.



What's totem Pokemon, is that yet another different form?

It's just not the same thing. The pokeball is an iconic symbol for the pokemon franchise, not just in the games but in everything from the logo down to merchandise. They can't just up and change how the entire pokemon universe works, it wouldn't make sense. This does make sense. It's a different region with different rules. Collecting gym badges is just a set of challenges that puts you on a path to battling the strongest trainer in the region. Alola doesn't have gyms, they have trial captains who are basically gym leaders. I'm sure they hand out some kind of reward similar to a badge for overcoming the challenge as well. Once you've done all that, there's no doubt in my mind that you'll have a battle with whoever the strongest trainer is in the region while stopping the evil team and capturing a legendary pokemon along the way. It might sound radically different, but when you break it down the new system isn't a whole lot different than the gym systems in the old games. It's just got a fresh take on it.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vidxad (Post 9479083)
It's just not the same thing. The pokeball is an iconic symbol for the pokemon franchise, not just in the games but in everything from the logo down to merchandise. They can't just up and change how the entire pokemon universe works, it wouldn't make sense. This does make sense. It's a different region with different rules. Collecting gym badges is just a set of challenges that puts you on a path to battling the strongest trainer in the region. Alola doesn't have gyms, they have trial captains who are basically gym leaders. I'm sure they hand out some kind of reward similar to a badge for overcoming the challenge as well. Once you've done all that, there's no doubt in my mind that you'll have a battle with whoever the strongest trainer is in the region while stopping the evil team and capturing a legendary pokemon along the way. It might sound radically different, but when you break it down the new system isn't a whole lot different than the gym systems in the old games. It's just got a fresh take on it.

You have a point about the image of the Pokeball, but if it's just a change for this one game then it wouldn't be any different to removing gyms, at this point it feels like a spin-off. If gyms apparently don't fit in with the Hawaiian theme, then surely Pokemon centres and Poke marts shouldn't fit in either?

MKC November 7th, 2016 12:14 PM

A Change in the formula has been requested for quite some time, so GameFreak delivered and gave us a game that changes up the standard formula to give us a fun new experience in a completely new way. This change may not be something you personally wanted, but you can never keep everyone happy, plenty of us quite welcome these changes however.

Also criticizing the changes you don't know about for no reason seems a bit pointless, at the very least you should play the demo to get a taste of the new formula with the mini-trial and totem battle.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9478630)
One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from just getting the game and playing like every other pokemon game. Did Gyms ever stop you from playing? no? Then island trials won't either, neither will Z moves or Alolan forms, unless seeing a White Vulpix instead of a red one makes you have to quit the game for some reason.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479102)
A Change in the formula has been requested for quite some time, so GameFreak delivered and gave us a game that changes up the standard formula to give us a fun new experience in a completely new way. This change may not be something you personally wanted, but you can never keep everyone happy, plenty of us quite welcome these changes however.

Also criticizing the changes you don't know about for no reason seems a bit pointless, at the very least you should play the demo to get a taste of the new formula with the mini-trial and totem battle.


There is absolutely nothing stopping you from just getting the game and playing like every other pokemon game. Did Gyms ever stop you from playing? no? Then island trials won't either, neither will Z moves or Alolan forms, unless seeing a White Vulpix instead of a red one makes you have to quit the game for some reason.

Let me post that quote so that you can read it again:
Originally Posted by Illusionss View Post
One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion

When I have to spend ages looking up and learning how all the new features work, then that just ruins the game for me. Like I said the simple yet refreshing formula of all other Pokemon games, for me that's what makes the game so unique, each game would be so different to the others while still keeping the same concept of battling around 8 gyms then facing the Pokemon league. In my opinion they should have gave everyone what they wanted by keeping the same formula for handheld games for the players who enjoy the nostalgia feel (which will now be gone for the most part), and make a separate Pokemon game for the console where they can change everything up for people requesting a new system to it, especially with the Nintendo Switch right around the corner.

Desert Stream~ November 7th, 2016 12:48 PM

Hmm... What's pokemon? Ah yes, the series where you catch creatures in balls, and battle them. If you ask me, those are the core mechanics, and they haven't changed.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CUTIEFLY!!! (Post 9479132)
Hmm... What's pokemon? Ah yes, the series where you catch creatures in balls, and battle them. If you ask me, those are the core mechanics, and they haven't changed.

Because fighting gyms and battling the league clearly isn't Pokemon, must be Digimon I was thinking of. My bad, son.

Lunar November 7th, 2016 1:01 PM

I'm personally really glad they changed things up, although I didn't dislike the Pokemon formula, it's nice to get a change. It'll be interesting to see how the league plays out though.

MKC November 7th, 2016 1:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479110)
Let me post that quote so that you can read it again:
Originally Posted by Illusionss View Post
One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion

When I have to spend ages looking up and learning how all the new features work, then that just ruins the game for me. Like I said the simple yet refreshing formula of all other Pokemon games, for me that's what makes the game so unique, each game would be so different to the others while still keeping the same concept of battling around 8 gyms then facing the Pokemon league. In my opinion they should have gave everyone what they wanted by keeping the same formula for handheld games for the players who enjoy the nostalgia feel (which will now be gone for the most part), and make a separate Pokemon game for the console where they can change everything up for people requesting a new system to it, especially with the Nintendo Switch right around the corner.

That still makes no sense, did you have to look up how to challenge gyms when you were a kid? no, right? Then why would you need to do with trials? They are part of the game, they are explained in game just like gyms were, and even if you don't read the in-game text they are intuitive and easy to guess. Remember this is a game for kids, if kids can understand so could you and everyone else.

Also this game is made to be as casual as ever for casual players and is simplified as much as possible, this time around even type effectiveness is shown in the battle, so I don't get where the problem is.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 1:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479149)
That still makes no sense, did you have to look up how to challenge gyms when you were a kid? no, right? Then why would you need to do with trials? They are part of the game, they are explained in game just like gyms were, and even if you don't read the in-game text they are intuitive and easy to guess. Remember this is a game for kids, if kids can understand so could you and everyone else.

Also this game is made to be as casual as ever for casual players and is simplified as much as possible, this time around even type effectiveness is shown in the battle, so I don't get where the problem is.

You're taking everything out of context. No I didn't have to look up how to battle gyms when I was a kid because it was a simple formula, which is what I liked about it. I never said I'd have to look up the challenges, it's the other stuff I'll likely have to look up with all the new forms and Z moves and all that jazz. It's really debatable whether or not this is a kids game, kids these days play Minecraft. Is yu-gi-oh a kids game as well when most of the in depth complications are confusing to most adults who play it? Bottom line is I had to look up most of the new features of X and Y because it doesn't go into depth about them in the game its self and there is way more new things in Sun and Moon than last gen. I just feel they've gone overkill with the cluster fuck of new features, less is more.

MKC November 7th, 2016 1:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479159)
You're taking everything out of context. No I didn't have to look up how to battle gyms when I was a kid because it was a simple formula, which is what I liked about it. I never said I'd have to look up the challenges, it's the other stuff I'll likely have to look up with all the new forms and Z moves and all that jazz. It's really debatable whether or not this is a kids game, kids these days play Minecraft. Is yu-gi-oh a kids game as well when most of the in depth complications are confusing to most adults who play it? Bottom line is I had to look up most of the new features of X and Y because it doesn't go into depth about them in the game its self and there is way more new things in Sun and Moon than last gen. I just feel they've gone overkill with the cluster **** of new features, less is more.

I don't see how it is out of context as it is one of the things you complained about, gyms were a simple formula, and so are trials, trials are just a new simple formula, but the fact that they are new is what makes them a lot more exciting, just like we did 20 years ago we get to experience a new unique system instead of having the same thing we've had since the start, it's great to have some change every one in a while.
And you don't need to look up Alola forms or Z-moves either, seeing a White Vulpix is not gonna be different from seeing a red one, they will just be different types, and is not like it matters anyways since in SM the type effectiveness appears on screen so you don't even need to remember it's type.

This certainly a kids game, it's easy to understand with a simple and intuitive system just as it has always been, if anything this game is even more kid-friendly than previous ones, since stat changes and type match ups are directly shown to you instead of having to remember/looked them up. Plus pretty much everything in the menus now has a ? mark to give extra info/explain how it works, it just couldn't be easier.

It's their 20th anniversary so it makes sense they are going all out adding as many cool stuff as possible for this games to be as amazing and unique as possible, and I'm pretty sure they are doing a good job for most people, but as I said they can't please everyone, if you don't like the changes so be it, all the other games with the same formula still exist.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479192)
I don't see how it is out of context as it is one of the things you complained about, gyms were a simple formula, and so are trials, trials are just a new simple formula, but the fact that they are new is what makes them a lot more exciting, just like we did 20 years ago we get to experience a new unique system instead of having the same thing we've had since the start, it's great to have some change every one in a while.
And you don't need to look up Alola forms or Z-moves either, seeing a White Vulpix is not gonna be different from seeing a red one, they will just be different types, and is not like it matters anyways since in SM the type effectiveness appears on screen so you don't even need to remember it's type.

This certainly a kids game, it's easy to understand with a simple and intuitive system just as it has always been, if anything this game is even more kid-friendly than previous ones, since stat changes and type match ups are directly shown to you instead of having to remember/looked them up. Plus pretty much everything in the menus now has a ? mark to give extra info/explain how it works, it just couldn't be easier.

It's their 20th anniversary so it makes sense they are going all out adding as many cool stuff as possible for this games to be as amazing and unique as possible, and I'm pretty sure they are doing a good job for most people, but as I said they can't please everyone, if you don't like the changes so be it, all the other games with the same formula still exist.

I never complained about gyms or new challenges being complicated, I stated my opinion of that removing gyms is also removing a huge part of the nostalgia feel since it is changing the game so much.
I complained about the overkill of new features leading to complication.

So you're expecting kids to understand how IV's, EV's, natures work? Certain things are easy to understand, other things aren't, when they're making us get used to a certain system with one generation and then removing all of that and giving us completely different stuff, then it gets complicated.

It's their 20th anniversary, so they scrap the whole concept that got them so much success in the first place? If anything they should be adding even more features that give nostalgia feels, hell even X and Y had the Kanto starters that you got from the professor. You can't seriously be telling me getting rid of the older stuff and replacing it with a cluster fuck of power rangers-like shenanigans is an intelligent way of celebrating their 20th anniversary? I don't see the logic behind that, of course one or two new features would have been great, but to completely scrap and replace the usual formula is foolish in my opinion.

Nah November 7th, 2016 2:50 PM

They haven't scraped the base concept at all tho, and there's a number of throwbacks and references to Gen 1 already

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 2:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nah (Post 9479256)
They haven't scraped the base concept at all tho, and there's a number of throwbacks and references to Gen 1 already

Getting rid of gyms and the league is taking a large portion of the concept away, references such as?

MKC November 7th, 2016 3:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479211)
I never complained about gyms or new challenges being complicated, I stated my opinion of that removing gyms is also removing a huge part of the nostalgia feel since it is changing the game so much.
I complained about the overkill of new features leading to complication.

So you're expecting kids to understand how IV's, EV's, natures work? Certain things are easy to understand, other things aren't, when they're making us get used to a certain system with one generation and then removing all of that and giving us completely different stuff, then it gets complicated.

It's their 20th anniversary, so they scrap the whole concept that got them so much success in the first place? If anything they should be adding even more features that give nostalgia feels, hell even X and Y had the Kanto starters that you got from the professor. You can't seriously be telling me getting rid of the older stuff and replacing it with a cluster **** of power rangers-like shenanigans is an intelligent way of celebrating their 20th anniversary? I don't see the logic behind that, of course one or two new features would have been great, but to completely scrap and replace the usual formula is foolish in my opinion.

No, kids don't understand EVs, IVs, Natures etc. But they don't need to, the games are easy and none of those things will ever get in their way to enjoy the game. They are just there for competitive reasons, which are generally more targeted for the older players, but is not like it matters, they have nothing to do with SM anyways, they've pretty much always been there.

And how did they scrap the whole concept that made the game popular? did you play pokemon for the gyms? cause that's pretty much the only thing that's gone (and HMs, but everyone hates HMs anyways).
And is not like they are not adding stuff for the nostalgia, main character is from Kanto, Pokemon Snap mode, Rotom, Red, Blue, Oak, Cynthia, Wally, NPCs from Unova, islands based on the 4 original games, and there's probably a lot more nostalgia pandering in the main game. I don't know about you, but find all of that too be a lot more exciting than the same style pokemon league we have in every single game, plus is not like the league is entirely gone anyway, it's still a part of the game as it is being built during the events of the game.

Mikewind November 7th, 2016 3:12 PM

GX made a theory that since the league is in there might be gyms as well. All around Alola there are these big empty spaces that could be where gyms are being built. Of course this is just theory so it could be wrong.
Edit: Here's the video

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 3:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479276)
No, kids don't understand EVs, IVs, Natures etc. But they don't need to, the games are easy and none of those things will ever get in their way to enjoy the game. They are just there for competitive reasons, which are generally more targeted for the older players, but is not like it matters, they have nothing to do with SM anyways, they've pretty much always been there.

And how did they scrap the whole concept that made the game popular? did you play pokemon for the gyms? cause that's pretty much the only thing that's gone (and HMs, but everyone hates HMs anyways).
And is not like they are not adding stuff for the nostalgia, main character is from Kanto, Pokemon Snap mode, Rotom, Red, Blue, Oak, Cynthia, Wally, NPCs from Unova, islands based on the 4 original games, and there's probably a lot more nostalgia pandering in the main game. I don't know about you, but find all of that too be a lot more exciting than the same style pokemon league we have in every single game, plus is not like the league is entirely gone anyway, it's still a part of the game as it is being built during the events of the game.

Either way they are part of the game and it is not strictly a kids game, it is aimed at all ages. I'd be willing to bet there's way more adults who play Pokemon than kids, a large portion of Pokemon players are people who grew up in the 90's.

Yes I did play for the gyms and league actually, I found it fun building up my team and having a different Pokemon to counter each gym/elite 4 member. The whole purpose of the other games was to collect all the gym badges and fight the elite 4, whilst also fighting the villains along the way, so if you don't see how removing gyms and the league is drastically changing the formula then I don't know, mate.

If I wanted to play Pokemon snap, I'd dig out my n64 and play Pokemon snap, mini games like this have very little to do with the gameplay of the story its self. Apart from Blue, Red and Oak, I have no idea who the other characters were that you mentioned, so I'm pretty sure most casual players won't know either. Besides just having a character from the older games is an insignificant addition when the formula is changed. Also Unova is one of the more recent generations, I was referring to gen 1 and 2 when I was mentioning the nostalgia feel, but for some 15 year olds that might be great.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 3:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikewind (Post 9479288)
GX made a theory that since the league is in there might be gyms as well. All around Alola there are these big empty spaces that could be where gyms are being built. Of course this is just theory so it could be wrong.
Edit: Here's the video

Doubtful, but I hope so. Pokemon without gym badges to collect would feel bizarre and not in a good way.

CidHazard November 7th, 2016 3:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9478630)
Also Ash-greninja? They trying to make a 2016 power rangers inspired game by having human/pokemon fusions?

Be careful what you wish for...

These images are from The Shonen manga Pocket Monster Reburst... Drawn by Jin Kusude and published by Shogakugan.

*Edit*


Ash-Greninja (As explained in the anime) a form in which Greninja can take when he's fully synchronized with Ash (Thoughts feelings, movement etc.) which happens because of the "Bond Phenomenon"

Bond Phenomenon - may be achieved when the trust between the Trainer and the Pokémon reaches maximum. While a Pokémon and Trainer are using this form, the Trainer shares the Pokémon's pain in the same place the Pokémon was dealt damage. The Trainer can also share the Pokémon's point of view. If the form is not mastered, the Trainer and Pokémon can pass out from exhaustion.

Bond phenomenon is tied to the hidden potential of a Pokemon (Not all Pokemon can have this potential tho... if they do, Ash's Pikachu would've achieved the bond form first). To date only Greninja has been shown to have this power as in the anime the Guardian of the ninja village is a Bond-Greninja, which means that Ash/Satoshi and his Greninja/Gekouga wasn't the first duo to awaken the power.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 3:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CidHazard (Post 9479325)
Be careful what you wish for...

These images are from The Shonen manga Pocket Monster Reburst... Drawn by Jin Kusude and published by Shogakugan.



Ash-Greninja (As explained in the anime) a form in which Greninja can take when he's fully synchronized with Ash (Thoughts feelings, movement etc.) which happens because of the "Bond Phenomenon"

Bond Phenomenon - may be achieved when the trust between the Trainer and the Pokémon reaches maximum. While a Pokémon and Trainer are using this form, the Trainer shares the Pokémon's pain in the same place the Pokémon was dealt damage. The Trainer can also share the Pokémon's point of view. If the form is not mastered, the Trainer and Pokémon can pass out from exhaustion.

Bond phenomenon is tied to the hidden potential of a Pokemon (Not all Pokemon can have this potential tho... if they do, Ash's Pikachu would've achieved the bond form first). To date only Greninja has been shown to have this power as in the anime the Guardian of the ninja village is a Bond-Greninja, which means that Ash/Satoshi and his Greninja/Gekouga wasn't the first duo to awaken the power.

What did I wish for?

There's nothing in the spoiler tags btw, just blank img boxes.

The trainer sharing the Pokemon's pain sounds like a very silly idea in my opinion.

CidHazard November 7th, 2016 4:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479331)
What did I wish for?

It's a joke :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479331)
There's nothing in the spoiler tags btw, just blank img boxes.

I edited them, just refresh to get a glimpse of Pure shounen Awesomeness if you it's still blank image boxes then just look up Pokemon Reburst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479331)
The trainer sharing the Pokemon's pain sounds like a very silly idea in my opinion.

Well they had to give a drawback to the form somehow.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 4:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CidHazard (Post 9479344)
It's a joke :D



I edited them, just refresh to get a glimpse of Pure shounen Awesomeness if you it's still blank image boxes then just look up Pokemon Reburst.



Well they had to give a drawback to the form somehow.

Ah, just seen. I'm really not a fan of the whole anime jazz, but whatever you're into

MegaKuriboh November 7th, 2016 5:40 PM

They changed it because the whole formula was getting stale. XY was the most barebones copy and paste adventure we've had so far. Durr pick a starter go to town beat the gym fight your rival OH NO there's an evil team that wants to kill us all and steal Pokemon we have to stop them! World domination! oh wait they were pushovers. also something about mega evolution and a war that was never really talked about much. oh hey elite 4 beat them and the champion congrats you're a Pokemon Master.

I agree when I first heard about the removals of Gyms I was a little upset and worried over it, but then I looked back and realized every single Gym Leader and Elite 4 member were pushovers in XY. They didn't give me the nostaligic feeling of collecting all the badges and being a Pokemon Champion it was more like oh I was blessed with Mega Evolution and even if I don't use it I swept the game easily. Trials sound way more refreshing and fun, even if you sadly don't fight the trial captains, but hey hunting around for stuff and discovering the land sounds more fun than press garbage cans many times until you get lucky enough to have the right to fight some dude and his Raichu. Kahunas take the role of Gym Leaders, and at least one of them has a freakin Guardian Pokemon with him, which I think is pretty rad. And it seems like Gyms might be returning after all, it's very likely they could be a post-game thing, as the Pokemon League actually is being built in the game, so at the very least you'll probably fight an Elite 4 and Champion.

I'm most excited for Sun and Moon because they look so fresh. You got trials, Team Skull who actually don't wanna blow up the world (they remind me of Team Rocket in a way, just goofier), whatever the Aether Foundation is, some mysteries with the box legendaries, Alolan forms (even if they are limited, the good ones are really damn good), Z-Moves seem fun, Poke Ride (NO MORE HMS THAT'S A BLESSING), Poke finder, Hyper Training, Trainer customization updated, Ultra Beasts and more. Pokemon may very well go back to the traditional form next generation, but I'm sure Sun and Moon will always be remembered for this very reason, the games are unique. I'm pumped man, give the games a chance, and they're already giving SO much love to the original games by making Alolan forms exclusive to Kanto Pokemon, most Pokemon in the Pokedex being from Kanto, including Red, Blue, Alolan Oak, and more.

pryce10 November 7th, 2016 6:53 PM

So you would rather have same old boring thing?

Nah November 7th, 2016 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479262)
Getting rid of gyms and the league is taking a large portion of the concept away, references such as?

The Island Trials appear to be gyms by a different name really

Gen 1 references I remember off the top of my head:
-player character is stated to have moved to Alola from Kanto
-Alolan forms are exclusive to gen 1 pokemon
-Professor Oak has a cousin who basically looks like a Hawaiian version of him
-Red and Blue are featured in the post game battle facility as opponents and partners

And whatever else I'm forgetting

Guest123_x1 November 7th, 2016 8:00 PM

Man, people are getting all salty about the changes Sun and Moon will bring about!

I'm thinking, given how poorly received X/Y were since their release, and many of the same formulas being repeated in each new main series region (and remakes), Game Freak must have figured out that the Pokémon main games were getting to be tired an dated, and that they needed to be taken in a different direction. Every long-standing media franchise, no matter how static they may be over the years, will eventually need to be taken in a new direction at some point or else suffer the consequences.
As more information comes in and what all has been revealed so far, it appears things are finally coming together and the new things like riding Pokémon and Island Trial Challenges are replacements for key features (Bicycle and Gyms, respectively) that have been in place from day one, with these new elements deemed as giving Sun/Moon a "fresh" feel while taking the roles that have been previously a part of every main series game to date. (I remember there was a post somewhere here which relayed info that you would need a certain number of badges awarded by completing Trials in order for the demo's Ash-Greninja to obey you after being transferred into the full versions of Sun and Moon.)

Illusionss November 12th, 2016 5:40 AM

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I won't enjoy sun and moon.

I didn't play gen 5 until years after it's release as I wasn't into Pokemon at the time, and I've never been so glad that I've missed out on a video game before. The reason for this is because imo gen 5 stripped most of the nostalgia away from the game by making almost every previous gen Pokemon not available until so far towards the end/after the main game. And sun and moon seems to have done something similar in that sense to what gen 5 did, except to an even further extent, I'm started to consider canceling my pre-orders.

Lusamine November 12th, 2016 6:29 AM

I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude to these games. Fundamentally, the basic gameplay formula hasn't changed in the slightest since the first generation, they've just been taking things out and adding other things in with each generation. With Sun & Moon, they've done the same thing, just in a slightly different way. It might work. It might not. Really, these games aren't hugely different from previous titles; they're still turn-based RPGs. All the changes they've made are just aesthetic ones you'll either like or hate, much the same way each game has a different region, evil team, regional dex, etc. Swapping Gyms for Island Challenges and all the rest is little more than semantics.

I'll play them and judge them on an individual basis, rather than comparing them to past titles and expecting to find certain things in there. That the gameplay is fundamentally the same is enough to convince me to try them before I condemn them as aesthetically inferior to past titles.

Rengoku November 12th, 2016 6:34 AM

That's what you hear every generations, not just Pokemon. I've seen practically the same kind of people complaining about every single new generation of games. It's getting old.

Things change. Things have to be updated and added to keep people interested than the same ol' thing.

Spoiler:
And who said the league was removed?


I'm just one of the people whom accept whatever comes my way. And if I didn't like it (Like the current Yu-Gi-Oh!), I just ditch them. Simple. Although I don't see myself ditching Pokemon anytime soon, since I've been playing since the first generation and it holds a special meaning to me.

I have to admit I really detested BWB2W2, but no way would you see me complaining. I just simply run through it so I could transfer my Pokemon from previous generations onwards. XY was good, to be honest, and the addition of ORAS helped. I am honestly superbly excited about Sun and Moon. Especially after the leaks in YouTube.

Zoinkity November 12th, 2016 7:54 AM

If we're going to complain about changing up the formula, let's go all the way. How dare they banish HMs. They were there from the very beginning. It just isn't Pokemon without at least three HM slaves in your party.

Illusionss November 12th, 2016 8:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoinkity (Post 9484490)
If we're going to complain about changing up the formula, let's go all the way. How dare they banish HMs. They were there from the very beginning. It just isn't Pokemon without at least three HM slaves in your party.

Comparing HM moves being removed to gyms being removed is like comparing polishing a turd to polishing a glass table

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pheremosa (Post 9484429)
I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude to these games. Fundamentally, the basic gameplay formula hasn't changed in the slightest since the first generation, they've just been taking things out and adding other things in with each generation. With Sun & Moon, they've done the same thing, just in a slightly different way. It might work. It might not. Really, these games aren't hugely different from previous titles; they're still turn-based RPGs. All the changes they've made are just aesthetic ones you'll either like or hate, much the same way each game has a different region, evil team, regional dex, etc. Swapping Gyms for Island Challenges and all the rest is little more than semantics.

I'll play them and judge them on an individual basis, rather than comparing them to past titles and expecting to find certain things in there. That the gameplay is fundamentally the same is enough to convince me to try them before I condemn them as aesthetically inferior to past titles.

Yeah, I agree tbh. Changing pretty much the whole goal of the game by defeating gyms and collecting badges to something different isn't changing the formula at all.

Nah November 12th, 2016 11:30 AM

If you're concerned that there will be no older Pokemon available to you during the main story like in Black/White, that's not the case in Sun/Moon. The list of Pokemon available during the main story has been leaked, and it contains both old and new Pokemon.

Illusionss November 12th, 2016 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nah (Post 9484638)
If you're concerned that there will be no older Pokemon available to you during the main story like in Black/White, that's not the case in Sun/Moon. The list of Pokemon available during the main story has been leaked, and it contains both old and new Pokemon.

I didn't mean it would be like gen 5 in the sense that there's no older Pokemon, I meant that its still going to be stripping some (if not most) of the nostalgia out of it, in this case by removing gyms and going complete overkill with all the new stuff.

Nah November 12th, 2016 12:11 PM

oh, ok, my bad

pryce10 November 12th, 2016 7:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479262)
Getting rid of gyms and the league is taking a large portion of the concept away, references such as?

they STILL have Alolan league and even HAVE elite four and champion... just no gyms... BIG DEAL!

Hikamaru November 13th, 2016 1:02 AM

As Pryce said, just because a region doesn't have Gyms doesn't mean it can't still have an Elite Four and Champion. The league is pretty much something that won't die down, and from what I heard from Ohmori and Masuda's Q&A sessions about the games, the reason Island Trials are substituting Gyms is because they wanted to focus on Alola being a nature-heavy region and the trials allowed the trainer to connect with nature.

The Evil Mewtwo November 13th, 2016 1:35 AM

It's actually a good thing. It will prevent the game from being boring. The trails is going to be fun and it will replace the gyms since we can experience the world with puzzles. The good thing is that the HMs are removed due to the new feature from the Demo, some of the good HMs are now TMs. However, some of the Pokemons really needs some upgrades too.

pryce10 November 13th, 2016 1:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9484400)
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I won't enjoy sun and moon.

I didn't play gen 5 until years after it's release as I wasn't into Pokemon at the time, and I've never been so glad that I've missed out on a video game before. The reason for this is because imo gen 5 stripped most of the nostalgia away from the game by making almost every previous gen Pokemon not available until so far towards the end/after the main game. And sun and moon seems to have done something similar in that sense to what gen 5 did, except to an even further extent, I'm started to consider canceling my pre-orders.

WOW... you sure whine a lot don't you?
Gen 1 is only pokemon to revcieve new Alolan form
Red and Blue is back.
Professor Oaks Cousin is here.
Not to mention according to leaked pokedex Alola will have various pokemon across generation INCLUDING MANY GEN 1 POKEMON!
WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT? THERE ARE GEN 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 POKEMONS AND GEN 1 CHARACTERS RETURNING!
Seriously there is no pleasing people... if GF keeps old patterns people will complain every pokemon game is just a clone with improved graphic... and when GF tries something different like in Sun and Moon there are people like you who whine that their childhood is ruined!

Illusionss November 13th, 2016 3:42 AM

Quote:

they STILL have Alolan league and even HAVE elite four and champion... just no gyms... BIG DEAL!
That is completely irrelevant. They do not have gyms anymore, therefor the whole goal to the game defeating gyms and collecting gym badges is completely changed. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pryce10 (Post 9484952)
they STILL have Alolan league and even HAVE elite four and champion... just no gyms... BIG DEAL!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pryce10 (Post 9485236)
WOW... you sure whine a lot don't you?
Gen 1 is only pokemon to revcieve new Alolan form
Red and Blue is back.
Professor Oaks Cousin is here.
Not to mention according to leaked pokedex Alola will have various pokemon across generation INCLUDING MANY GEN 1 POKEMON!
WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT? THERE ARE GEN 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 POKEMONS AND GEN 1 CHARACTERS RETURNING!
Seriously there is no pleasing people... if GF keeps old patterns people will complain every pokemon game is just a clone with improved graphic... and when GF tries something different like in Sun and Moon there are people like you who whine that their childhood is ruined!

Where did I say sun and moon is getting rid of all the older gen Pokemon? I was comparing it to gen 5 because of it's huge changes, this time in the case of removing gyms and changing the concept of the game, talk about lack of intelligence, lol. Besides, it's also about the fact that they've gone sheer overkill with all the new Pokemon forms, there's like four different kinds of them that I'm aware of (possibly even more). I don't care for having professor Oak's cousin here at all, changes like that are barely anything more than a slight reference and will make no difference to the gameplay side of things. People have never complained before about using the same formula so why would they start now? If they insisted on making a spin-off-like game like this, then why didn't they save it for their Switch console coming out next year, that way they could have given us a regular Pokemon game on the 3DS and the spin-off-like sun and moon on the Swtch, everybody wins.

pryce10 November 13th, 2016 4:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9485287)
That is completely irrelevant. They do not have gyms anymore, therefor the whole goal to the game defeating gyms and collecting gym badges is completely changed. :)





Where did I say sun and moon is getting rid of all the older gen Pokemon? I was comparing it to gen 5 because of it's huge changes, this time in the case of removing gyms and changing the concept of the game, talk about lack of intelligence, lol. Besides, it's also about the fact that they've gone sheer overkill with all the new Pokemon forms, there's like four different kinds of them that I'm aware of (possibly even more). I don't care for having professor Oak's cousin here at all, changes like that are barely anything more than a slight reference and will make no difference to the gameplay side of things. People have never complained before about using the same formula so why would they start now? If they insisted on making a spin-off-like game like this, then why didn't they save it for their Switch console coming out next year, that way they could have given us a regular Pokemon game on the 3DS and the spin-off-like sun and moon on the Swtch, everybody wins.

WTF? Sun and Moon is STiLL a main game... they just swapped gym leaders to Trail captain... it is still eventually same thing! Seriously the core aspect has NOT changed. you still capture pokemon, battle evil team, challenge trail captains... and level up your pokemon! WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUN AND MOON AND OTHER MAIN GAMES EXCEPT ABSENCE OF GYMS!
Seriously you still have Trail captains AND kahunas who still specialises in a type like gym leaders!
NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE!
Seriously you really do not like change do you?
did you whine in X and y when they introduced new type? I bet you were like "WHY INTRODUCE NEW TYPE WHEN THEY HAVEN'T FOR 5 GENERATIONS! X AND Y SUCKS!"

L'Belle November 13th, 2016 4:58 AM

What I am wondering is.. what did black and white change that was so different from it's previous generations besides there being no old pokémon?

Also something you said, yes, it is still the same thing. You travel trough the region, preparing yourself to face trials with totem pokémon and kahunas (Who specialize in a certain type) and fight an evil team alongside the way. Then when you are done, you go trough victory road and fight the elite four and the champion. There are also postgame adventures for you to discover and online battling to have fun with.

This really could be any pokémon game with some slight differences. Also, you should know that Gamefreak put a lot of work in these games. You should at least see for yourself if you like it before judging it so unfairly as you do now.

pryce10 November 13th, 2016 5:23 AM

seriously GYMS never has been a thing that makes pokemon a Pokemon...
Pokemon is all about capturing your pokemon, leveling it up, and befreinding it. I don't mind if they removed the league, evil teams, or champion... as long as they have core aspect of capturing your pokemon and befriending it... it is STILL a pokemon!

Illusionss November 13th, 2016 7:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pryce10 (Post 9485327)
WTF? Sun and Moon is STiLL a main game... they just swapped gym leaders to Trail captain... it is still eventually same thing! Seriously the core aspect has NOT changed. you still capture pokemon, battle evil team, challenge trail captains... and level up your pokemon! WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUN AND MOON AND OTHER MAIN GAMES EXCEPT ABSENCE OF GYMS!
Seriously you still have Trail captains AND kahunas who still specialises in a type like gym leaders!
NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE!
Seriously you really do not like change do you?
did you whine in X and y when they introduced new type? I bet you were like "WHY INTRODUCE NEW TYPE WHEN THEY HAVEN'T FOR 5 GENERATIONS! X AND Y SUCKS!"

Sun and Moon is very similar to Pokemon Colosseum and Pokemon gale of darkness, no gyms or gym badges hence the spin-off-like feel to it and a different end game goal, which sun and moon also has. Obviously there's still going to be an evil team, what else are they going to do, make a game where you battle Red and Blue for fun over and over? Also where did I complain about a new type? Adding is fine with me as long as they're not taking away key aspects of the game whilst doing so, or going complete overkill with a cluster fuck of the many different Pokemon forms.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelaar (Post 9485341)
What I am wondering is.. what did black and white change that was so different from it's previous generations besides there being no old pokémon?

Also something you said, yes, it is still the same thing. You travel trough the region, preparing yourself to face trials with totem pokémon and kahunas (Who specialize in a certain type) and fight an evil team alongside the way. Then when you are done, you go trough victory road and fight the elite four and the champion. There are also postgame adventures for you to discover and online battling to have fun with.

This really could be any pokémon game with some slight differences. Also, you should know that Gamefreak put a lot of work in these games. You should at least see for yourself if you like it before judging it so unfairly as you do now.

If you re-read the post I made comparing it to gen 5, you'll see I made the point that the difference was that hardly any earlier gen Pokemon we're available until near the end of the game/after the endgame. I played the demo and did not enjoy it, however I am going to play the full game before making a final conclusion, but even at this point in time I am just as entitled to my opinion as someone who is looking forward to the game and loving what they've seen thus far.

I feel that it would have been so much better if they made this game for the Nintendo Switch in more ways than one. For starters it would have been better from a business standpoint as for many people this would be a deal breaker having a Pokemon game like this on a home console and would've increased sales (especially having this on the day of release of the Nintendo Switch), also it would have given them something to experiment with and would have been much less of a risk to what they're doing now, if these games and their new ideas do happen to flop then it could really hurt them and they would likely need a solid Pokemon game with the standard formula to get back on track. Putting this on the Switch would also give everyone what they want; a Pokemon game what we're used to on the 3ds for us casual fans, and a Pokemon game with a lot of big changes for you hardcore fans or fans who want something different. But hey, what do I know?


Quote:

Originally Posted by pryce10 (Post 9485361)
seriously GYMS never has been a thing that makes pokemon a Pokemon...
Pokemon is all about capturing your pokemon, leveling it up, and befreinding it. I don't mind if they removed the league, evil teams, or champion... as long as they have core aspect of capturing your pokemon and befriending it... it is STILL a pokemon!

For me gyms was such a huge part of the game that I enjoyed, and I know I'm not the only one as many of my friends are the same. I can't really comment on "befriending it" as I've never tried to befriend a virtual Pocket monster, but whatever you're into I guess. I may have even enjoyed battling gyms even more than collecting Pokemon and powering it up, there was just something about collecting gym badges and reaching the milestone of a new gym, and also facing a whole bunch of CPU's with the same type of Pokemon whilst leading up the gym leader.

If you're more into petting your Pokemon and feeding them treats on the touchscreen, as well as battling online with your Z type special moves and your Ash-Greninja or all the different regular forms or legendary forms, then that's great, each to their own. But I'm just not into that.

kingdenas November 13th, 2016 8:53 AM

I mean, if you think defeating a gym leader with only 3 Pokémon, which you can OHKO easily with one member of your team is fun, then so be it.

Honestly, I was pretty tired of gyms. They started getting really easy, and the leaders didn't participate in the plot as they should. I think adding Trials is a refreshing way to get rid of gyms. And it's not like they don't make sense, since Alola is pretty tropical and whatnot. The idea of trials seem to match Alola's environment and culture, so I'm not even mad. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover.

blue November 13th, 2016 9:01 AM

I was skeptical about the whole trial system replacing the Gyms at a first glance, but now I'm looking forward to at least seeing how it compares. I think trials will be a lot more innovative than gym puzzles and hopefully, it will mean Trial Captains are more heavily involved with the storyline. One of the issues with gym leaders was the lack of character development with them not really having any engagement with the plot other than being there to battle against. With the combination of Captains, trials, Totem Pokémon, and Kahunas.. I think they will be full of content.

Hikamaru November 13th, 2016 9:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 9485629)
I was skeptical about the whole trial system replacing the Gyms at a first glance, but now I'm looking forward to at least seeing how it compares. I think trials will be a lot more innovative than gym puzzles and hopefully, it will mean Trial Captains are more heavily involved with the storyline. One of the issues with gym leaders was the lack of character development with them not really having any engagement with the plot other than being there to battle against. With the combination of Captains, trials, Totem Pokémon, and Kahunas.. I think they will be full of content.

If I also remember, Totem Pokemon are going to be kinda tough early on since I did see a video on CoroCoro's YouTube channel where the player's team (Litten, Yungoos and Crabrawler) got destroyed easily by the Totem Gumshoos.

Gumshoos is Sun exclusive while Moon has Alolan Raticate, which the latter will definitely be easier to beat down with a Fighting-type (4x weakness yoohoo!) plus Popplio line gets Disarming Voice early which also hits Raticate's Dark-type super-effectively. Basically, Sun players will have a harder time against that first Totem since Gumshoos doesn't have as many weaknesses as Moon's Alolan Raticate.

Now I could only imagine how much scary these Totems will be for Nuzlockers of this game...

pryce10 November 13th, 2016 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9485518)
Sun and Moon is very similar to Pokemon Colosseum and Pokemon gale of darkness, no gyms or gym badges hence the spin-off-like feel to it and a different end game goal, which sun and moon also has. Obviously there's still going to be an evil team, what else are they going to do, make a game where you battle Red and Blue for fun over and over? Also where did I complain about a new type? Adding is fine with me as long as they're not taking away key aspects of the game whilst doing so, or going complete overkill with a cluster **** of the many different Pokemon forms.




If you re-read the post I made comparing it to gen 5, you'll see I made the point that the difference was that hardly any earlier gen Pokemon we're available until near the end of the game/after the endgame. I played the demo and did not enjoy it, however I am going to play the full game before making a final conclusion, but even at this point in time I am just as entitled to my opinion as someone who is looking forward to the game and loving what they've seen thus far.

I feel that it would have been so much better if they made this game for the Nintendo Switch in more ways than one. For starters it would have been better from a business standpoint as for many people this would be a deal breaker having a Pokemon game like this on a home console and would've increased sales (especially having this on the day of release of the Nintendo Switch), also it would have given them something to experiment with and would have been much less of a risk to what they're doing now, if these games and their new ideas do happen to flop then it could really hurt them and they would likely need a solid Pokemon game with the standard formula to get back on track. Putting this on the Switch would also give everyone what they want; a Pokemon game what we're used to on the 3ds for us casual fans, and a Pokemon game with a lot of big changes for you hardcore fans or fans who want something different. But hey, what do I know?




For me gyms was such a huge part of the game that I enjoyed, and I know I'm not the only one as many of my friends are the same. I can't really comment on "befriending it" as I've never tried to befriend a virtual Pocket monster, but whatever you're into I guess. I may have even enjoyed battling gyms even more than collecting Pokemon and powering it up, there was just something about collecting gym badges and reaching the milestone of a new gym, and also facing a whole bunch of CPU's with the same type of Pokemon whilst leading up the gym leader.

If you're more into petting your Pokemon and feeding them treats on the touchscreen, as well as battling online with your Z type special moves and your Ash-Greninja or all the different regular forms or legendary forms, then that's great, each to their own. But I'm just not into that.

you clearly don't like change... plus YOU ALWAYS IGNORE TRAIL CAPTAINS AND KAHUNAS!

Illusionss November 13th, 2016 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdenas (Post 9485619)
I mean, if you think defeating a gym leader with only 3 Pokémon, which you can OHKO easily with one member of your team is fun, then so be it.

Honestly, I was pretty tired of gyms. They started getting really easy, and the leaders didn't participate in the plot as they should. I think adding Trials is a refreshing way to get rid of gyms. And it's not like they don't make sense, since Alola is pretty tropical and whatnot. The idea of trials seem to match Alola's environment and culture, so I'm not even mad. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover.

I agree Pokemon games as of late have been too easy (X and Y especially), but they can make the game more difficult by increasing the difficulty somewhat e.g. like the elite 4 in gen 1, except to an even further extent if needed, they didn't have to completely remove gyms.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pryce10 (Post 9485903)
you clearly don't like change... plus YOU ALWAYS IGNORE TRAIL CAPTAINS AND KAHUNAS!

I encourage change for the better, but I also don't believe in trying to fix something that isn't broken. Seems like Nintendo have took a trick from Apple's book in this case.

pryce10 November 13th, 2016 2:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9486021)
I agree Pokemon games as of late have been too easy (X and Y especially), but they can make the game more difficult by increasing the difficulty somewhat e.g. like the elite 4 in gen 1, except to an even further extent if needed, they didn't have to completely remove gyms.




I encourage change for the better, but I also don't believe in trying to fix something that isn't broken. Seems like Nintendo have took a trick from Apple's book in this case.

how is trail captain not a change for better? For EONS people have complained that Pokemon is just same thing with same boring old formula! get pokemon beat gym, fight evil teams, beat elite four, beat champion, the end! they did same old formula for 20 years and now GF is FINALLY trying to do something different and you cry foul? IT IS BROKEN! PEOPLE HAVE COMPLAINED THAT THERE IS NOTHING NEW ABOUT EACH POKEMON GAMES AND BELIEVE THAT ONCE YOU PLAYED ANY ONE POKEMON GAME THERE IS NO NEED TO PLAY ANOTHER SINCE THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME!
seriously you can please people

Illusionss November 13th, 2016 3:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colours (Post 9486095)
My last post itt, take it as you will:

There will be change in Pokemon. That's a fact. Unless you've been living under a rock or have genuinely never played Pokemon before, this is something to be expected. Game Freak removes and adds features every single generation. The Poketch? Removed. Xtransciever? Removed. Vs. Seeker? Removed. Battle Frontier? Removed. Pokemon following you in HGSS? Removed. Difficulty altering modes after B2W2? Removed. I can honestly go on and on about this but I will be honest and say that a lot of the reason you're facing some pushback in this thread is because this is nothing new on Game Freak's part, and a lot of people know this. They will always make some additions every generation that's polarized amongst fans. In Gen VI, it was Mega Evolution. This generation, it's Alola forms. No matter what Game Freak does, they're never going to please everybody. They can most certainly try, and that's their general aim, but it will never happen because there will be someone mad enough that the experience isn't tailored enough specifically for them.

Secondly, you can develop whatever opinion you want. If, ultimately, you feel that the games aren't a fit for you based on what you've seen so far, so be it. I disagree with the premature judgment, but hey, that's your thoughts on it and if the last four pages of this thread have been of any indication, you're probably not going to change your mind on that, and chances are you're not going to change the mind of anybody you're replying to. I don't think that's your aim, as you've stated earlier you're just here to post your opinion, and that's fine. I do think however, that this has become rather one-sided and very repetitive; you keep saying that you feel that the recent generation is losing its nostalgia because of the removal of Gyms among other new additions, while others are stating to you that this isn't the case; that Pokemon has and always will be what it is at its core: catching, battling, trading, and communicating. Nothing more, nothing less. How Game Freak does that is ultimately up to them. You may not be satisfied with how they go about with these core functions, but as long as they keep them intact, it will always be Pokemon as a lot of people know it to be.

That being said, if you feel you are going to be unhappy with your experiences with the games, then do cancel your pre-orders and skip out on this generation. A lot of people in this thread disagree with you that the removal of Gyms is removing a component that would be sending the games in a death spiral, but hey, opinions are opinions and as I said, not everyone is going to be pleased with a specific generation of games. That's just how it is.

On another note: difficulty in Pokemon games are hardly going to be a thing. As much as some veteran players (even myself) would want it to be so, the fact of the matter is that even if you see that more adults play Pokemon, the general demographic and aim for Pokemon is for children. These games are developed so that it would be easy and simple for children as well as those who've never played Pokemon before to get into; making the games difficult would most likely turn them off and away from it.

tl;dr: We're all here to enjoy the Pokemon games for various reasons. Some of those reasons are more for battling, some of them care more for plot, some of them care for post-game, some more for trading and breeding. What makes Pokemon such a fulfilling experience in many people's eyes is that these core aspects of the games don't seem to be compromised. In fact, they're made easier, if anything else. It's possibly likely that Super Training will make a return, Hyper Training is making getting into battling a breeze, breeding is ridiculously easy with Gen VI and will likely be easy in Gen VII.

The point of all of this is that Gyms, while a staple in the series, are only a tiny part of what makes Pokemon what it is. And I know you're going to respond to this with "well why not replace Pokemon with nets lol", in which case I'll respond that Pokeballs are universal. They can fit anywhere, in any region, in any environment without looking out of place. Everyone knows what a Pokeball is, they're a standard method of capturing Pokemon and Pokeballs are a trainers' trustworthy tool to capture Pokemon to fill up the Pokedex. Gyms however, as much of a staple as they are, they can very well be removed because, as this generation proved, Gyms are not the only way one can be recognized as Champion of a specific region. If this point seems silly to you, then I'm not sure what else to say, but it is what it is.

Z-moves and the such are not difficult concepts to learn, in fact, I believe they're explained even in the demo. At any rate, it sucks that you aren't happy with them, and I hope that, if you do plan on getting the games in the end, that you'll be satisfied with your experience and that SM will be a decent game to play through, after all.

I must have missed the "Do not give your opinion" post in the terms of service, my bad!

Illusionss November 13th, 2016 3:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pryce10 (Post 9486038)
how is trail captain not a change for better? For EONS people have complained that Pokemon is just same thing with same boring old formula! get pokemon beat gym, fight evil teams, beat elite four, beat champion, the end! they did same old formula for 20 years and now GF is FINALLY trying to do something different and you cry foul? IT IS BROKEN! PEOPLE HAVE COMPLAINED THAT THERE IS NOTHING NEW ABOUT EACH POKEMON GAMES AND BELIEVE THAT ONCE YOU PLAYED ANY ONE POKEMON GAME THERE IS NO NEED TO PLAY ANOTHER SINCE THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME!
seriously you can please people

Kind of contradicting yourself, earlier you said that not much is changing and now you're saying it's a good
thing that they're changing the "same boring old formula".

Bottom line is some people wanted something different, some people wanted the same thing. They could've made everyone a winner by making this spin-off-like game on the Switch and a regular Pokemon game what we're used to on the 3DS or something along those lines as I've said over and over, but instead us old school fans got bent over the desk and got it stuck up us, because we're getting a game that we didn't want and ultimately no sign of a Pokemon game with the standard formula coming anytime soon.

blue November 13th, 2016 3:38 PM

It doesn't seem like much more can come of this discussion other than what is already being argued. Since the discussion topic has trailed off, I'm gonna go ahead and close this thread before things get out of hand.


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