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Why did they change everything up so much?
It's not even going to feel like a Pokemon game by removing the regular formula of gyms and such. Also why go overkill with alola forms and special moves? We already have mega evolution, each generation seems to be getting worse and worse, granted gen 6 was pretty good, but I'm not so sure I'll enjoy this gen. Also this is minor but I really dislike the whole battle layout.
http://www.nintendowire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Pokemon-SunMoon-BattleRoyal.jpg It'll still probably end up being decent, but removing the simple concept of all other Pokemon games is going to be a problem for the casual players like myself, gen 6 took me ages to find out how all the new stuff worked (O powers, mega evolutions, Battle points, ect ect..) Also Ash-greninja? They trying to make a 2016 power rangers inspired game by having human/pokemon fusions? One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion. P.s. I have the demo and I heard there's items that you can send to the full game, do I just have to play through to get them all or is there side quests you have to do? If someone could let me know how to get the demo items that would be great, already have the ash greninja. |
Changing up the formula can be a good thing, it prevents the franchise from feeling repetitive. I don't think removing Gyms is that much of a big deal if it has been replaced by something else. At least we have the Island Trial Challenge in place to compensate for the removal of them which, if anything, will provide even more content as each trial takes seemingly longer than a traditional Gym Puzzle and battle. The good thing about trials is that both old and new fans will get a completely new experience with them. As for the games as a whole, I don't think the formula has been changed drastically when compared to past titles. We're still traveling through a new region, capturing new Pokémon, collecting items and training up a team. We still have rivals, a professor, an evil team and so forth.
It's fine that you have your own opinion, I'd just wait until actually trying out these new features before putting them down. You might be surprised and find that all these new features change the gameplay for the better. All the demo questions can be answered in this thread. (: |
I'm a bit in the same box. I've been playing Pokemon since Red & Blue and after taking a short break through the Black/White Generation I jumped back into it. I also found it a bit hard to wrap my head around all the new features and such. Mega-Evolution in particular was something I really didn't like at first. Since then it's actually grown on me quite a lot and I'm very disappointed they don't seem to be offering new mega evolutions for Alola.
I agree with being uncomfortable with the sheer amount of change. This Gen isn't just new features, it's shaking up the base formula. But like Mega evolutions, I may learn to love it. From what I can tell it looks like the island trials are basically Gym Battles, with a few mini-quests prior. The 'Kahuna' seems to basically be a gym leader. It seems to remind me of the orange islands series, with the Orange crew. If they keep this style specific to the Alolan region then I'll be good with it. I'm just hoping they go back to gyms with the following generation. Can't say I like Z-Moves, but I get that it's intended to make some lesser used pokemon more viable. It just disappoints me that they seem to have chosen Z-moves over continuing Mega-Evolution. |
People have always been scared of change really.
Yet at the same time, it's a necessary part of life. It's still going to be, at its core, a Pokemon game. The basics are still there: kid gets starter Pokemon from professor, journeys around the whole region, catching them all, stomping the local mafia, and somehow beating a slew of much more experienced trainers. I don't care for the Battle Royale tho |
Nah nails it here, people just can't stand drastic changes sometimes and I actually felt the same way as most people when I first heard about Gyms being non-existent in Alola (granted I was reading leaks and rumours) and when we got it confirmed with the reveal of Trial Captains, I had to definitely praise Game Freak for doing something different with the formula for once. Like Angelica said a few posts earlier, some of us were sick of Gyms and wanted a switch-up, and I've now read the focus on nature in the Alola region was part of the reason why we've been getting all these changes to the gameplay formula.
I feel Trial Captains will only be for Alola and we'll get Gyms back in the 8th Gen region, but you do have to praise Game Freak for experimenting with new concepts for this game. Like Nah said, despite all the changes to the formula for this game, we still gave other things that aren't changing. |
It's going to feel like a Pokémon game. You know why? Because Pokémon is all about evolving with new adventures, making new friends on the way, and new TRIALS to overcome.
What else would a Pokémon game would be? |
Trial Captains "replacing" Gym Leaders may just be a thing in Alola and nothing more, so even if you may be apprehensive about how much you enjoy SM, I wouldn't worry too much about what it means for subsequent games--Gym Leaders could very well come back.
As for adding Alola forms and Z-Moves, I don't mind them both being implemented in SM, but I do hope that they ease up on the new raw mechanics for gen 8, and instead add to the ones they have (more regional variations, Z-Moves, and Megas, as opposed to ignoring them and making something all-new). Not because I have a problem with them adding new things, but the truth of the matter is, if they keep adding new mechanics in such rapid succession, the risk of power creep is increased (best practical example of this: Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG). But maybe for gen 8 they won't add tons of new mechanics and just improve and add to what they already have--but that in all honesty has nothing to do with SM, that would be up to gen 8. So yeah I get why you'd be apprehensive about SM but just think of it as all these things are confined to SM alone. Even something like the battle layout that you say you dislike--this HUD design is likely going to be exclusive to SM, too. If you play SM and like it, then yay, you liked it. If you play SM and don't like it, just remember the things you don't like about it will probably just apply to SM, and could possibly be changed in subsequent games. |
I don't see anything wrong with changing up the game formula. If anything, the island trials are the closest thing we have to gyms. Taking on gyms every generation could get a bit taxing, so I'm glad they're changing things up a bit.
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I actually like the changes, it keeps the games from feeling repetitive.
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Are the Island challenges going to be considerably longer than gyms? When a new Pokemon game comes out I usually get both versions of the game and speedrun the first one I play, then take my time and do all the side quests on the next one, so would be a bit of a pain if the games as a whole we're something like twice as long. Although I know most people would love having a longer game, but as I said I'm just a casual player Quote:
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Honestly, I was so excited when I heard that it was all changing. I've been doing the same thing over and over since 1998, I've been ready for something different for about a decade and they are finally going to deliver that. I'm not sure how I feel about Z-moves just yet though, but considering it's a one time use attack, it can't shake up the game that much...hopefully.
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The way I see it Trails are just gyms with a new coat of paint. You still have puzzles that may or may not include battles. The first trial has you fighting yungoos/A-ratatta. At the end of a trial you fight a totem pokemon which is the same as a gym leader. That's how I see it anyway maybe I'm just biased.
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Also what about mega-evolutions and O powers? We've spent the last three years having those features and now we've adapted to them they're going to throw them down the shit pan? |
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I'm pretty sure anyone trying to hatch shiny Pokemon with the Masuda method would be using the hatching O power, unless of course they find it fun to spend twice as long riding around on the bike. I forget what other O powers there were but some were useful. |
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But O-Powers have actually been in the games since gen 5--they were included in the Entralink, but not a lot of people made use of it, so they were a lot more low-key back then. Because of that, I have hope that, even though they haven't been mentioned as returning just yet, there's a chance that they're still in SM. |
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Masuda method paired with hatching O power and flame body is a very fast and effective way of hatching high IV shiny Pokemon. |
I think it's a great thing. To break the mold of the same formula to keep the game from getting stale and repetitive. They included things to help compensate for the removal of certain things.
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A Change in the formula has been requested for quite some time, so GameFreak delivered and gave us a game that changes up the standard formula to give us a fun new experience in a completely new way. This change may not be something you personally wanted, but you can never keep everyone happy, plenty of us quite welcome these changes however.
Also criticizing the changes you don't know about for no reason seems a bit pointless, at the very least you should play the demo to get a taste of the new formula with the mini-trial and totem battle. Quote:
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Originally Posted by Illusionss View Post One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion When I have to spend ages looking up and learning how all the new features work, then that just ruins the game for me. Like I said the simple yet refreshing formula of all other Pokemon games, for me that's what makes the game so unique, each game would be so different to the others while still keeping the same concept of battling around 8 gyms then facing the Pokemon league. In my opinion they should have gave everyone what they wanted by keeping the same formula for handheld games for the players who enjoy the nostalgia feel (which will now be gone for the most part), and make a separate Pokemon game for the console where they can change everything up for people requesting a new system to it, especially with the Nintendo Switch right around the corner. |
Hmm... What's pokemon? Ah yes, the series where you catch creatures in balls, and battle them. If you ask me, those are the core mechanics, and they haven't changed.
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I'm personally really glad they changed things up, although I didn't dislike the Pokemon formula, it's nice to get a change. It'll be interesting to see how the league plays out though.
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Also this game is made to be as casual as ever for casual players and is simplified as much as possible, this time around even type effectiveness is shown in the battle, so I don't get where the problem is. |
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And you don't need to look up Alola forms or Z-moves either, seeing a White Vulpix is not gonna be different from seeing a red one, they will just be different types, and is not like it matters anyways since in SM the type effectiveness appears on screen so you don't even need to remember it's type. This certainly a kids game, it's easy to understand with a simple and intuitive system just as it has always been, if anything this game is even more kid-friendly than previous ones, since stat changes and type match ups are directly shown to you instead of having to remember/looked them up. Plus pretty much everything in the menus now has a ? mark to give extra info/explain how it works, it just couldn't be easier. It's their 20th anniversary so it makes sense they are going all out adding as many cool stuff as possible for this games to be as amazing and unique as possible, and I'm pretty sure they are doing a good job for most people, but as I said they can't please everyone, if you don't like the changes so be it, all the other games with the same formula still exist. |
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I complained about the overkill of new features leading to complication. So you're expecting kids to understand how IV's, EV's, natures work? Certain things are easy to understand, other things aren't, when they're making us get used to a certain system with one generation and then removing all of that and giving us completely different stuff, then it gets complicated. It's their 20th anniversary, so they scrap the whole concept that got them so much success in the first place? If anything they should be adding even more features that give nostalgia feels, hell even X and Y had the Kanto starters that you got from the professor. You can't seriously be telling me getting rid of the older stuff and replacing it with a cluster fuck of power rangers-like shenanigans is an intelligent way of celebrating their 20th anniversary? I don't see the logic behind that, of course one or two new features would have been great, but to completely scrap and replace the usual formula is foolish in my opinion. |
They haven't scraped the base concept at all tho, and there's a number of throwbacks and references to Gen 1 already
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And how did they scrap the whole concept that made the game popular? did you play pokemon for the gyms? cause that's pretty much the only thing that's gone (and HMs, but everyone hates HMs anyways). And is not like they are not adding stuff for the nostalgia, main character is from Kanto, Pokemon Snap mode, Rotom, Red, Blue, Oak, Cynthia, Wally, NPCs from Unova, islands based on the 4 original games, and there's probably a lot more nostalgia pandering in the main game. I don't know about you, but find all of that too be a lot more exciting than the same style pokemon league we have in every single game, plus is not like the league is entirely gone anyway, it's still a part of the game as it is being built during the events of the game. |
GX made a theory that since the league is in there might be gyms as well. All around Alola there are these big empty spaces that could be where gyms are being built. Of course this is just theory so it could be wrong.
Edit: Here's the video Spoiler:
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Yes I did play for the gyms and league actually, I found it fun building up my team and having a different Pokemon to counter each gym/elite 4 member. The whole purpose of the other games was to collect all the gym badges and fight the elite 4, whilst also fighting the villains along the way, so if you don't see how removing gyms and the league is drastically changing the formula then I don't know, mate. If I wanted to play Pokemon snap, I'd dig out my n64 and play Pokemon snap, mini games like this have very little to do with the gameplay of the story its self. Apart from Blue, Red and Oak, I have no idea who the other characters were that you mentioned, so I'm pretty sure most casual players won't know either. Besides just having a character from the older games is an insignificant addition when the formula is changed. Also Unova is one of the more recent generations, I was referring to gen 1 and 2 when I was mentioning the nostalgia feel, but for some 15 year olds that might be great. |
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These images are from The Shonen manga Pocket Monster Reburst... Drawn by Jin Kusude and published by Shogakugan. *Edit* Spoiler:
Ash-Greninja (As explained in the anime) a form in which Greninja can take when he's fully synchronized with Ash (Thoughts feelings, movement etc.) which happens because of the "Bond Phenomenon" Bond Phenomenon - may be achieved when the trust between the Trainer and the Pokémon reaches maximum. While a Pokémon and Trainer are using this form, the Trainer shares the Pokémon's pain in the same place the Pokémon was dealt damage. The Trainer can also share the Pokémon's point of view. If the form is not mastered, the Trainer and Pokémon can pass out from exhaustion. Bond phenomenon is tied to the hidden potential of a Pokemon (Not all Pokemon can have this potential tho... if they do, Ash's Pikachu would've achieved the bond form first). To date only Greninja has been shown to have this power as in the anime the Guardian of the ninja village is a Bond-Greninja, which means that Ash/Satoshi and his Greninja/Gekouga wasn't the first duo to awaken the power. |
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There's nothing in the spoiler tags btw, just blank img boxes. The trainer sharing the Pokemon's pain sounds like a very silly idea in my opinion. |
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They changed it because the whole formula was getting stale. XY was the most barebones copy and paste adventure we've had so far. Durr pick a starter go to town beat the gym fight your rival OH NO there's an evil team that wants to kill us all and steal Pokemon we have to stop them! World domination! oh wait they were pushovers. also something about mega evolution and a war that was never really talked about much. oh hey elite 4 beat them and the champion congrats you're a Pokemon Master.
I agree when I first heard about the removals of Gyms I was a little upset and worried over it, but then I looked back and realized every single Gym Leader and Elite 4 member were pushovers in XY. They didn't give me the nostaligic feeling of collecting all the badges and being a Pokemon Champion it was more like oh I was blessed with Mega Evolution and even if I don't use it I swept the game easily. Trials sound way more refreshing and fun, even if you sadly don't fight the trial captains, but hey hunting around for stuff and discovering the land sounds more fun than press garbage cans many times until you get lucky enough to have the right to fight some dude and his Raichu. Kahunas take the role of Gym Leaders, and at least one of them has a freakin Guardian Pokemon with him, which I think is pretty rad. And it seems like Gyms might be returning after all, it's very likely they could be a post-game thing, as the Pokemon League actually is being built in the game, so at the very least you'll probably fight an Elite 4 and Champion. I'm most excited for Sun and Moon because they look so fresh. You got trials, Team Skull who actually don't wanna blow up the world (they remind me of Team Rocket in a way, just goofier), whatever the Aether Foundation is, some mysteries with the box legendaries, Alolan forms (even if they are limited, the good ones are really damn good), Z-Moves seem fun, Poke Ride (NO MORE HMS THAT'S A BLESSING), Poke finder, Hyper Training, Trainer customization updated, Ultra Beasts and more. Pokemon may very well go back to the traditional form next generation, but I'm sure Sun and Moon will always be remembered for this very reason, the games are unique. I'm pumped man, give the games a chance, and they're already giving SO much love to the original games by making Alolan forms exclusive to Kanto Pokemon, most Pokemon in the Pokedex being from Kanto, including Red, Blue, Alolan Oak, and more. |
So you would rather have same old boring thing?
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Gen 1 references I remember off the top of my head: -player character is stated to have moved to Alola from Kanto -Alolan forms are exclusive to gen 1 pokemon -Professor Oak has a cousin who basically looks like a Hawaiian version of him -Red and Blue are featured in the post game battle facility as opponents and partners And whatever else I'm forgetting |
Man, people are getting all salty about the changes Sun and Moon will bring about!
I'm thinking, given how poorly received X/Y were since their release, and many of the same formulas being repeated in each new main series region (and remakes), Game Freak must have figured out that the Pokémon main games were getting to be tired an dated, and that they needed to be taken in a different direction. Every long-standing media franchise, no matter how static they may be over the years, will eventually need to be taken in a new direction at some point or else suffer the consequences. As more information comes in and what all has been revealed so far, it appears things are finally coming together and the new things like riding Pokémon and Island Trial Challenges are replacements for key features (Bicycle and Gyms, respectively) that have been in place from day one, with these new elements deemed as giving Sun/Moon a "fresh" feel while taking the roles that have been previously a part of every main series game to date. (I remember there was a post somewhere here which relayed info that you would need a certain number of badges awarded by completing Trials in order for the demo's Ash-Greninja to obey you after being transferred into the full versions of Sun and Moon.) |
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I won't enjoy sun and moon.
I didn't play gen 5 until years after it's release as I wasn't into Pokemon at the time, and I've never been so glad that I've missed out on a video game before. The reason for this is because imo gen 5 stripped most of the nostalgia away from the game by making almost every previous gen Pokemon not available until so far towards the end/after the main game. And sun and moon seems to have done something similar in that sense to what gen 5 did, except to an even further extent, I'm started to consider canceling my pre-orders. |
I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude to these games. Fundamentally, the basic gameplay formula hasn't changed in the slightest since the first generation, they've just been taking things out and adding other things in with each generation. With Sun & Moon, they've done the same thing, just in a slightly different way. It might work. It might not. Really, these games aren't hugely different from previous titles; they're still turn-based RPGs. All the changes they've made are just aesthetic ones you'll either like or hate, much the same way each game has a different region, evil team, regional dex, etc. Swapping Gyms for Island Challenges and all the rest is little more than semantics.
I'll play them and judge them on an individual basis, rather than comparing them to past titles and expecting to find certain things in there. That the gameplay is fundamentally the same is enough to convince me to try them before I condemn them as aesthetically inferior to past titles. |
That's what you hear every generations, not just Pokemon. I've seen practically the same kind of people complaining about every single new generation of games. It's getting old.
Things change. Things have to be updated and added to keep people interested than the same ol' thing. Spoiler:
I'm just one of the people whom accept whatever comes my way. And if I didn't like it (Like the current Yu-Gi-Oh!), I just ditch them. Simple. Although I don't see myself ditching Pokemon anytime soon, since I've been playing since the first generation and it holds a special meaning to me. I have to admit I really detested BWB2W2, but no way would you see me complaining. I just simply run through it so I could transfer my Pokemon from previous generations onwards. XY was good, to be honest, and the addition of ORAS helped. I am honestly superbly excited about Sun and Moon. Especially after the leaks in YouTube. |
If we're going to complain about changing up the formula, let's go all the way. How dare they banish HMs. They were there from the very beginning. It just isn't Pokemon without at least three HM slaves in your party.
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If you're concerned that there will be no older Pokemon available to you during the main story like in Black/White, that's not the case in Sun/Moon. The list of Pokemon available during the main story has been leaked, and it contains both old and new Pokemon.
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oh, ok, my bad
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As Pryce said, just because a region doesn't have Gyms doesn't mean it can't still have an Elite Four and Champion. The league is pretty much something that won't die down, and from what I heard from Ohmori and Masuda's Q&A sessions about the games, the reason Island Trials are substituting Gyms is because they wanted to focus on Alola being a nature-heavy region and the trials allowed the trainer to connect with nature.
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It's actually a good thing. It will prevent the game from being boring. The trails is going to be fun and it will replace the gyms since we can experience the world with puzzles. The good thing is that the HMs are removed due to the new feature from the Demo, some of the good HMs are now TMs. However, some of the Pokemons really needs some upgrades too.
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Gen 1 is only pokemon to revcieve new Alolan form Red and Blue is back. Professor Oaks Cousin is here. Not to mention according to leaked pokedex Alola will have various pokemon across generation INCLUDING MANY GEN 1 POKEMON! WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT? THERE ARE GEN 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 POKEMONS AND GEN 1 CHARACTERS RETURNING! Seriously there is no pleasing people... if GF keeps old patterns people will complain every pokemon game is just a clone with improved graphic... and when GF tries something different like in Sun and Moon there are people like you who whine that their childhood is ruined! |
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Seriously you still have Trail captains AND kahunas who still specialises in a type like gym leaders! NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE! Seriously you really do not like change do you? did you whine in X and y when they introduced new type? I bet you were like "WHY INTRODUCE NEW TYPE WHEN THEY HAVEN'T FOR 5 GENERATIONS! X AND Y SUCKS!" |
What I am wondering is.. what did black and white change that was so different from it's previous generations besides there being no old pokémon?
Also something you said, yes, it is still the same thing. You travel trough the region, preparing yourself to face trials with totem pokémon and kahunas (Who specialize in a certain type) and fight an evil team alongside the way. Then when you are done, you go trough victory road and fight the elite four and the champion. There are also postgame adventures for you to discover and online battling to have fun with. This really could be any pokémon game with some slight differences. Also, you should know that Gamefreak put a lot of work in these games. You should at least see for yourself if you like it before judging it so unfairly as you do now. |
seriously GYMS never has been a thing that makes pokemon a Pokemon...
Pokemon is all about capturing your pokemon, leveling it up, and befreinding it. I don't mind if they removed the league, evil teams, or champion... as long as they have core aspect of capturing your pokemon and befriending it... it is STILL a pokemon! |
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I feel that it would have been so much better if they made this game for the Nintendo Switch in more ways than one. For starters it would have been better from a business standpoint as for many people this would be a deal breaker having a Pokemon game like this on a home console and would've increased sales (especially having this on the day of release of the Nintendo Switch), also it would have given them something to experiment with and would have been much less of a risk to what they're doing now, if these games and their new ideas do happen to flop then it could really hurt them and they would likely need a solid Pokemon game with the standard formula to get back on track. Putting this on the Switch would also give everyone what they want; a Pokemon game what we're used to on the 3ds for us casual fans, and a Pokemon game with a lot of big changes for you hardcore fans or fans who want something different. But hey, what do I know? Quote:
If you're more into petting your Pokemon and feeding them treats on the touchscreen, as well as battling online with your Z type special moves and your Ash-Greninja or all the different regular forms or legendary forms, then that's great, each to their own. But I'm just not into that. |
I mean, if you think defeating a gym leader with only 3 Pokémon, which you can OHKO easily with one member of your team is fun, then so be it.
Honestly, I was pretty tired of gyms. They started getting really easy, and the leaders didn't participate in the plot as they should. I think adding Trials is a refreshing way to get rid of gyms. And it's not like they don't make sense, since Alola is pretty tropical and whatnot. The idea of trials seem to match Alola's environment and culture, so I'm not even mad. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover. |
I was skeptical about the whole trial system replacing the Gyms at a first glance, but now I'm looking forward to at least seeing how it compares. I think trials will be a lot more innovative than gym puzzles and hopefully, it will mean Trial Captains are more heavily involved with the storyline. One of the issues with gym leaders was the lack of character development with them not really having any engagement with the plot other than being there to battle against. With the combination of Captains, trials, Totem Pokémon, and Kahunas.. I think they will be full of content.
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Gumshoos is Sun exclusive while Moon has Alolan Raticate, which the latter will definitely be easier to beat down with a Fighting-type (4x weakness yoohoo!) plus Popplio line gets Disarming Voice early which also hits Raticate's Dark-type super-effectively. Basically, Sun players will have a harder time against that first Totem since Gumshoos doesn't have as many weaknesses as Moon's Alolan Raticate. Now I could only imagine how much scary these Totems will be for Nuzlockers of this game... |
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seriously you can please people |
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thing that they're changing the "same boring old formula". Bottom line is some people wanted something different, some people wanted the same thing. They could've made everyone a winner by making this spin-off-like game on the Switch and a regular Pokemon game what we're used to on the 3DS or something along those lines as I've said over and over, but instead us old school fans got bent over the desk and got it stuck up us, because we're getting a game that we didn't want and ultimately no sign of a Pokemon game with the standard formula coming anytime soon. |
It doesn't seem like much more can come of this discussion other than what is already being argued. Since the discussion topic has trailed off, I'm gonna go ahead and close this thread before things get out of hand.
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