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-   -   Why did they change everything up so much? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=382295)

MKC November 7th, 2016 12:14 PM

A Change in the formula has been requested for quite some time, so GameFreak delivered and gave us a game that changes up the standard formula to give us a fun new experience in a completely new way. This change may not be something you personally wanted, but you can never keep everyone happy, plenty of us quite welcome these changes however.

Also criticizing the changes you don't know about for no reason seems a bit pointless, at the very least you should play the demo to get a taste of the new formula with the mini-trial and totem battle.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9478630)
One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from just getting the game and playing like every other pokemon game. Did Gyms ever stop you from playing? no? Then island trials won't either, neither will Z moves or Alolan forms, unless seeing a White Vulpix instead of a red one makes you have to quit the game for some reason.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479102)
A Change in the formula has been requested for quite some time, so GameFreak delivered and gave us a game that changes up the standard formula to give us a fun new experience in a completely new way. This change may not be something you personally wanted, but you can never keep everyone happy, plenty of us quite welcome these changes however.

Also criticizing the changes you don't know about for no reason seems a bit pointless, at the very least you should play the demo to get a taste of the new formula with the mini-trial and totem battle.


There is absolutely nothing stopping you from just getting the game and playing like every other pokemon game. Did Gyms ever stop you from playing? no? Then island trials won't either, neither will Z moves or Alolan forms, unless seeing a White Vulpix instead of a red one makes you have to quit the game for some reason.

Let me post that quote so that you can read it again:
Originally Posted by Illusionss View Post
One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion

When I have to spend ages looking up and learning how all the new features work, then that just ruins the game for me. Like I said the simple yet refreshing formula of all other Pokemon games, for me that's what makes the game so unique, each game would be so different to the others while still keeping the same concept of battling around 8 gyms then facing the Pokemon league. In my opinion they should have gave everyone what they wanted by keeping the same formula for handheld games for the players who enjoy the nostalgia feel (which will now be gone for the most part), and make a separate Pokemon game for the console where they can change everything up for people requesting a new system to it, especially with the Nintendo Switch right around the corner.

Desert Stream~ November 7th, 2016 12:48 PM

Hmm... What's pokemon? Ah yes, the series where you catch creatures in balls, and battle them. If you ask me, those are the core mechanics, and they haven't changed.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CUTIEFLY!!! (Post 9479132)
Hmm... What's pokemon? Ah yes, the series where you catch creatures in balls, and battle them. If you ask me, those are the core mechanics, and they haven't changed.

Because fighting gyms and battling the league clearly isn't Pokemon, must be Digimon I was thinking of. My bad, son.

Lunar November 7th, 2016 1:01 PM

I'm personally really glad they changed things up, although I didn't dislike the Pokemon formula, it's nice to get a change. It'll be interesting to see how the league plays out though.

MKC November 7th, 2016 1:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479110)
Let me post that quote so that you can read it again:
Originally Posted by Illusionss View Post
One of the things that made Pokemon fun for me was being able to just put in the game and play, now that'll be difficult without researching how everything works, just my opinion

When I have to spend ages looking up and learning how all the new features work, then that just ruins the game for me. Like I said the simple yet refreshing formula of all other Pokemon games, for me that's what makes the game so unique, each game would be so different to the others while still keeping the same concept of battling around 8 gyms then facing the Pokemon league. In my opinion they should have gave everyone what they wanted by keeping the same formula for handheld games for the players who enjoy the nostalgia feel (which will now be gone for the most part), and make a separate Pokemon game for the console where they can change everything up for people requesting a new system to it, especially with the Nintendo Switch right around the corner.

That still makes no sense, did you have to look up how to challenge gyms when you were a kid? no, right? Then why would you need to do with trials? They are part of the game, they are explained in game just like gyms were, and even if you don't read the in-game text they are intuitive and easy to guess. Remember this is a game for kids, if kids can understand so could you and everyone else.

Also this game is made to be as casual as ever for casual players and is simplified as much as possible, this time around even type effectiveness is shown in the battle, so I don't get where the problem is.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 1:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479149)
That still makes no sense, did you have to look up how to challenge gyms when you were a kid? no, right? Then why would you need to do with trials? They are part of the game, they are explained in game just like gyms were, and even if you don't read the in-game text they are intuitive and easy to guess. Remember this is a game for kids, if kids can understand so could you and everyone else.

Also this game is made to be as casual as ever for casual players and is simplified as much as possible, this time around even type effectiveness is shown in the battle, so I don't get where the problem is.

You're taking everything out of context. No I didn't have to look up how to battle gyms when I was a kid because it was a simple formula, which is what I liked about it. I never said I'd have to look up the challenges, it's the other stuff I'll likely have to look up with all the new forms and Z moves and all that jazz. It's really debatable whether or not this is a kids game, kids these days play Minecraft. Is yu-gi-oh a kids game as well when most of the in depth complications are confusing to most adults who play it? Bottom line is I had to look up most of the new features of X and Y because it doesn't go into depth about them in the game its self and there is way more new things in Sun and Moon than last gen. I just feel they've gone overkill with the cluster fuck of new features, less is more.

MKC November 7th, 2016 1:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479159)
You're taking everything out of context. No I didn't have to look up how to battle gyms when I was a kid because it was a simple formula, which is what I liked about it. I never said I'd have to look up the challenges, it's the other stuff I'll likely have to look up with all the new forms and Z moves and all that jazz. It's really debatable whether or not this is a kids game, kids these days play Minecraft. Is yu-gi-oh a kids game as well when most of the in depth complications are confusing to most adults who play it? Bottom line is I had to look up most of the new features of X and Y because it doesn't go into depth about them in the game its self and there is way more new things in Sun and Moon than last gen. I just feel they've gone overkill with the cluster **** of new features, less is more.

I don't see how it is out of context as it is one of the things you complained about, gyms were a simple formula, and so are trials, trials are just a new simple formula, but the fact that they are new is what makes them a lot more exciting, just like we did 20 years ago we get to experience a new unique system instead of having the same thing we've had since the start, it's great to have some change every one in a while.
And you don't need to look up Alola forms or Z-moves either, seeing a White Vulpix is not gonna be different from seeing a red one, they will just be different types, and is not like it matters anyways since in SM the type effectiveness appears on screen so you don't even need to remember it's type.

This certainly a kids game, it's easy to understand with a simple and intuitive system just as it has always been, if anything this game is even more kid-friendly than previous ones, since stat changes and type match ups are directly shown to you instead of having to remember/looked them up. Plus pretty much everything in the menus now has a ? mark to give extra info/explain how it works, it just couldn't be easier.

It's their 20th anniversary so it makes sense they are going all out adding as many cool stuff as possible for this games to be as amazing and unique as possible, and I'm pretty sure they are doing a good job for most people, but as I said they can't please everyone, if you don't like the changes so be it, all the other games with the same formula still exist.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479192)
I don't see how it is out of context as it is one of the things you complained about, gyms were a simple formula, and so are trials, trials are just a new simple formula, but the fact that they are new is what makes them a lot more exciting, just like we did 20 years ago we get to experience a new unique system instead of having the same thing we've had since the start, it's great to have some change every one in a while.
And you don't need to look up Alola forms or Z-moves either, seeing a White Vulpix is not gonna be different from seeing a red one, they will just be different types, and is not like it matters anyways since in SM the type effectiveness appears on screen so you don't even need to remember it's type.

This certainly a kids game, it's easy to understand with a simple and intuitive system just as it has always been, if anything this game is even more kid-friendly than previous ones, since stat changes and type match ups are directly shown to you instead of having to remember/looked them up. Plus pretty much everything in the menus now has a ? mark to give extra info/explain how it works, it just couldn't be easier.

It's their 20th anniversary so it makes sense they are going all out adding as many cool stuff as possible for this games to be as amazing and unique as possible, and I'm pretty sure they are doing a good job for most people, but as I said they can't please everyone, if you don't like the changes so be it, all the other games with the same formula still exist.

I never complained about gyms or new challenges being complicated, I stated my opinion of that removing gyms is also removing a huge part of the nostalgia feel since it is changing the game so much.
I complained about the overkill of new features leading to complication.

So you're expecting kids to understand how IV's, EV's, natures work? Certain things are easy to understand, other things aren't, when they're making us get used to a certain system with one generation and then removing all of that and giving us completely different stuff, then it gets complicated.

It's their 20th anniversary, so they scrap the whole concept that got them so much success in the first place? If anything they should be adding even more features that give nostalgia feels, hell even X and Y had the Kanto starters that you got from the professor. You can't seriously be telling me getting rid of the older stuff and replacing it with a cluster fuck of power rangers-like shenanigans is an intelligent way of celebrating their 20th anniversary? I don't see the logic behind that, of course one or two new features would have been great, but to completely scrap and replace the usual formula is foolish in my opinion.

Nah November 7th, 2016 2:50 PM

They haven't scraped the base concept at all tho, and there's a number of throwbacks and references to Gen 1 already

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 2:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nah (Post 9479256)
They haven't scraped the base concept at all tho, and there's a number of throwbacks and references to Gen 1 already

Getting rid of gyms and the league is taking a large portion of the concept away, references such as?

MKC November 7th, 2016 3:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479211)
I never complained about gyms or new challenges being complicated, I stated my opinion of that removing gyms is also removing a huge part of the nostalgia feel since it is changing the game so much.
I complained about the overkill of new features leading to complication.

So you're expecting kids to understand how IV's, EV's, natures work? Certain things are easy to understand, other things aren't, when they're making us get used to a certain system with one generation and then removing all of that and giving us completely different stuff, then it gets complicated.

It's their 20th anniversary, so they scrap the whole concept that got them so much success in the first place? If anything they should be adding even more features that give nostalgia feels, hell even X and Y had the Kanto starters that you got from the professor. You can't seriously be telling me getting rid of the older stuff and replacing it with a cluster **** of power rangers-like shenanigans is an intelligent way of celebrating their 20th anniversary? I don't see the logic behind that, of course one or two new features would have been great, but to completely scrap and replace the usual formula is foolish in my opinion.

No, kids don't understand EVs, IVs, Natures etc. But they don't need to, the games are easy and none of those things will ever get in their way to enjoy the game. They are just there for competitive reasons, which are generally more targeted for the older players, but is not like it matters, they have nothing to do with SM anyways, they've pretty much always been there.

And how did they scrap the whole concept that made the game popular? did you play pokemon for the gyms? cause that's pretty much the only thing that's gone (and HMs, but everyone hates HMs anyways).
And is not like they are not adding stuff for the nostalgia, main character is from Kanto, Pokemon Snap mode, Rotom, Red, Blue, Oak, Cynthia, Wally, NPCs from Unova, islands based on the 4 original games, and there's probably a lot more nostalgia pandering in the main game. I don't know about you, but find all of that too be a lot more exciting than the same style pokemon league we have in every single game, plus is not like the league is entirely gone anyway, it's still a part of the game as it is being built during the events of the game.

Mikewind November 7th, 2016 3:12 PM

GX made a theory that since the league is in there might be gyms as well. All around Alola there are these big empty spaces that could be where gyms are being built. Of course this is just theory so it could be wrong.
Edit: Here's the video

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 3:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKC (Post 9479276)
No, kids don't understand EVs, IVs, Natures etc. But they don't need to, the games are easy and none of those things will ever get in their way to enjoy the game. They are just there for competitive reasons, which are generally more targeted for the older players, but is not like it matters, they have nothing to do with SM anyways, they've pretty much always been there.

And how did they scrap the whole concept that made the game popular? did you play pokemon for the gyms? cause that's pretty much the only thing that's gone (and HMs, but everyone hates HMs anyways).
And is not like they are not adding stuff for the nostalgia, main character is from Kanto, Pokemon Snap mode, Rotom, Red, Blue, Oak, Cynthia, Wally, NPCs from Unova, islands based on the 4 original games, and there's probably a lot more nostalgia pandering in the main game. I don't know about you, but find all of that too be a lot more exciting than the same style pokemon league we have in every single game, plus is not like the league is entirely gone anyway, it's still a part of the game as it is being built during the events of the game.

Either way they are part of the game and it is not strictly a kids game, it is aimed at all ages. I'd be willing to bet there's way more adults who play Pokemon than kids, a large portion of Pokemon players are people who grew up in the 90's.

Yes I did play for the gyms and league actually, I found it fun building up my team and having a different Pokemon to counter each gym/elite 4 member. The whole purpose of the other games was to collect all the gym badges and fight the elite 4, whilst also fighting the villains along the way, so if you don't see how removing gyms and the league is drastically changing the formula then I don't know, mate.

If I wanted to play Pokemon snap, I'd dig out my n64 and play Pokemon snap, mini games like this have very little to do with the gameplay of the story its self. Apart from Blue, Red and Oak, I have no idea who the other characters were that you mentioned, so I'm pretty sure most casual players won't know either. Besides just having a character from the older games is an insignificant addition when the formula is changed. Also Unova is one of the more recent generations, I was referring to gen 1 and 2 when I was mentioning the nostalgia feel, but for some 15 year olds that might be great.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 3:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikewind (Post 9479288)
GX made a theory that since the league is in there might be gyms as well. All around Alola there are these big empty spaces that could be where gyms are being built. Of course this is just theory so it could be wrong.
Edit: Here's the video

Doubtful, but I hope so. Pokemon without gym badges to collect would feel bizarre and not in a good way.

CidHazard November 7th, 2016 3:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9478630)
Also Ash-greninja? They trying to make a 2016 power rangers inspired game by having human/pokemon fusions?

Be careful what you wish for...

These images are from The Shonen manga Pocket Monster Reburst... Drawn by Jin Kusude and published by Shogakugan.

*Edit*


Ash-Greninja (As explained in the anime) a form in which Greninja can take when he's fully synchronized with Ash (Thoughts feelings, movement etc.) which happens because of the "Bond Phenomenon"

Bond Phenomenon - may be achieved when the trust between the Trainer and the Pokémon reaches maximum. While a Pokémon and Trainer are using this form, the Trainer shares the Pokémon's pain in the same place the Pokémon was dealt damage. The Trainer can also share the Pokémon's point of view. If the form is not mastered, the Trainer and Pokémon can pass out from exhaustion.

Bond phenomenon is tied to the hidden potential of a Pokemon (Not all Pokemon can have this potential tho... if they do, Ash's Pikachu would've achieved the bond form first). To date only Greninja has been shown to have this power as in the anime the Guardian of the ninja village is a Bond-Greninja, which means that Ash/Satoshi and his Greninja/Gekouga wasn't the first duo to awaken the power.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 3:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CidHazard (Post 9479325)
Be careful what you wish for...

These images are from The Shonen manga Pocket Monster Reburst... Drawn by Jin Kusude and published by Shogakugan.



Ash-Greninja (As explained in the anime) a form in which Greninja can take when he's fully synchronized with Ash (Thoughts feelings, movement etc.) which happens because of the "Bond Phenomenon"

Bond Phenomenon - may be achieved when the trust between the Trainer and the Pokémon reaches maximum. While a Pokémon and Trainer are using this form, the Trainer shares the Pokémon's pain in the same place the Pokémon was dealt damage. The Trainer can also share the Pokémon's point of view. If the form is not mastered, the Trainer and Pokémon can pass out from exhaustion.

Bond phenomenon is tied to the hidden potential of a Pokemon (Not all Pokemon can have this potential tho... if they do, Ash's Pikachu would've achieved the bond form first). To date only Greninja has been shown to have this power as in the anime the Guardian of the ninja village is a Bond-Greninja, which means that Ash/Satoshi and his Greninja/Gekouga wasn't the first duo to awaken the power.

What did I wish for?

There's nothing in the spoiler tags btw, just blank img boxes.

The trainer sharing the Pokemon's pain sounds like a very silly idea in my opinion.

CidHazard November 7th, 2016 4:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479331)
What did I wish for?

It's a joke :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479331)
There's nothing in the spoiler tags btw, just blank img boxes.

I edited them, just refresh to get a glimpse of Pure shounen Awesomeness if you it's still blank image boxes then just look up Pokemon Reburst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479331)
The trainer sharing the Pokemon's pain sounds like a very silly idea in my opinion.

Well they had to give a drawback to the form somehow.

Illusionss November 7th, 2016 4:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CidHazard (Post 9479344)
It's a joke :D



I edited them, just refresh to get a glimpse of Pure shounen Awesomeness if you it's still blank image boxes then just look up Pokemon Reburst.



Well they had to give a drawback to the form somehow.

Ah, just seen. I'm really not a fan of the whole anime jazz, but whatever you're into

MegaKuriboh November 7th, 2016 5:40 PM

They changed it because the whole formula was getting stale. XY was the most barebones copy and paste adventure we've had so far. Durr pick a starter go to town beat the gym fight your rival OH NO there's an evil team that wants to kill us all and steal Pokemon we have to stop them! World domination! oh wait they were pushovers. also something about mega evolution and a war that was never really talked about much. oh hey elite 4 beat them and the champion congrats you're a Pokemon Master.

I agree when I first heard about the removals of Gyms I was a little upset and worried over it, but then I looked back and realized every single Gym Leader and Elite 4 member were pushovers in XY. They didn't give me the nostaligic feeling of collecting all the badges and being a Pokemon Champion it was more like oh I was blessed with Mega Evolution and even if I don't use it I swept the game easily. Trials sound way more refreshing and fun, even if you sadly don't fight the trial captains, but hey hunting around for stuff and discovering the land sounds more fun than press garbage cans many times until you get lucky enough to have the right to fight some dude and his Raichu. Kahunas take the role of Gym Leaders, and at least one of them has a freakin Guardian Pokemon with him, which I think is pretty rad. And it seems like Gyms might be returning after all, it's very likely they could be a post-game thing, as the Pokemon League actually is being built in the game, so at the very least you'll probably fight an Elite 4 and Champion.

I'm most excited for Sun and Moon because they look so fresh. You got trials, Team Skull who actually don't wanna blow up the world (they remind me of Team Rocket in a way, just goofier), whatever the Aether Foundation is, some mysteries with the box legendaries, Alolan forms (even if they are limited, the good ones are really damn good), Z-Moves seem fun, Poke Ride (NO MORE HMS THAT'S A BLESSING), Poke finder, Hyper Training, Trainer customization updated, Ultra Beasts and more. Pokemon may very well go back to the traditional form next generation, but I'm sure Sun and Moon will always be remembered for this very reason, the games are unique. I'm pumped man, give the games a chance, and they're already giving SO much love to the original games by making Alolan forms exclusive to Kanto Pokemon, most Pokemon in the Pokedex being from Kanto, including Red, Blue, Alolan Oak, and more.

pryce10 November 7th, 2016 6:53 PM

So you would rather have same old boring thing?

Nah November 7th, 2016 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusionss (Post 9479262)
Getting rid of gyms and the league is taking a large portion of the concept away, references such as?

The Island Trials appear to be gyms by a different name really

Gen 1 references I remember off the top of my head:
-player character is stated to have moved to Alola from Kanto
-Alolan forms are exclusive to gen 1 pokemon
-Professor Oak has a cousin who basically looks like a Hawaiian version of him
-Red and Blue are featured in the post game battle facility as opponents and partners

And whatever else I'm forgetting

Guest123_x1 November 7th, 2016 8:00 PM

Man, people are getting all salty about the changes Sun and Moon will bring about!

I'm thinking, given how poorly received X/Y were since their release, and many of the same formulas being repeated in each new main series region (and remakes), Game Freak must have figured out that the Pokémon main games were getting to be tired an dated, and that they needed to be taken in a different direction. Every long-standing media franchise, no matter how static they may be over the years, will eventually need to be taken in a new direction at some point or else suffer the consequences.
As more information comes in and what all has been revealed so far, it appears things are finally coming together and the new things like riding Pokémon and Island Trial Challenges are replacements for key features (Bicycle and Gyms, respectively) that have been in place from day one, with these new elements deemed as giving Sun/Moon a "fresh" feel while taking the roles that have been previously a part of every main series game to date. (I remember there was a post somewhere here which relayed info that you would need a certain number of badges awarded by completing Trials in order for the demo's Ash-Greninja to obey you after being transferred into the full versions of Sun and Moon.)

Illusionss November 12th, 2016 5:40 AM

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I won't enjoy sun and moon.

I didn't play gen 5 until years after it's release as I wasn't into Pokemon at the time, and I've never been so glad that I've missed out on a video game before. The reason for this is because imo gen 5 stripped most of the nostalgia away from the game by making almost every previous gen Pokemon not available until so far towards the end/after the main game. And sun and moon seems to have done something similar in that sense to what gen 5 did, except to an even further extent, I'm started to consider canceling my pre-orders.

Lusamine November 12th, 2016 6:29 AM

I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude to these games. Fundamentally, the basic gameplay formula hasn't changed in the slightest since the first generation, they've just been taking things out and adding other things in with each generation. With Sun & Moon, they've done the same thing, just in a slightly different way. It might work. It might not. Really, these games aren't hugely different from previous titles; they're still turn-based RPGs. All the changes they've made are just aesthetic ones you'll either like or hate, much the same way each game has a different region, evil team, regional dex, etc. Swapping Gyms for Island Challenges and all the rest is little more than semantics.

I'll play them and judge them on an individual basis, rather than comparing them to past titles and expecting to find certain things in there. That the gameplay is fundamentally the same is enough to convince me to try them before I condemn them as aesthetically inferior to past titles.


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