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Her November 25th, 2016 9:38 PM

Fidel Castro dead at 90
 
link

Quote:

"The commander in chief of the Cuban revolution died at 22:29 hours this evening (03:29 GMT Saturday)," President Raul Castro said. Fidel Castro ruled Cuba as a one-party state for almost 50 years before Raul took over in 2008. His supporters said he had given Cuba back to the people. But he was also accused of suppressing opposition.

Ashen and grave, President Castro told the nation in an unexpected late night broadcast on state television that Fidel Castro had died and would be cremated later on Saturday.There would now be several days of national mourning on the island. Raul Castro ended the announcement by shouting the revolutionary slogan: "Towards victory, always!"

Barring the occasional newspaper column, Fidel Castro had essentially been retired from political life for some time, the BBC's Will Grant in Havana reports.
In April, Fidel Castro gave a rare speech on the final day of the country's Communist Party congress. He acknowledged his advanced age but said Cuban communist concepts were still valid and the Cuban people "will be victorious". "I'll soon be 90," the former president said, adding that this was "something I'd never imagined". "Soon I'll be like all the others, "to all our turn must come," Fidel Castro said.

Castro - who had survived many assassination plots - was the longest serving non-royal leader of the 20th Century. Castro temporarily handed over power to his brother in 2006 as he was recovering from an acute intestinal ailment. Raul Castro officially became president two years later.

Hikamaru November 25th, 2016 9:45 PM

And we get another one added to 2016's already infamous death tally. Let's admit that this year will be remembered for nothing other than deaths, deaths and uh more deaths.

Rest in peace Fidel Castro.

gimmepie November 25th, 2016 9:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikamaru (Post 9498513)
And we get another one added to 2016's already infamous death tally. Let's admit that this year will be remembered for nothing other than deaths, deaths and uh more deaths.

Rest in peace Fidel Castro.

I mean, Fidel Castro is a slightly more interesting case because a lot of people are not going to be morning his death and for good reason really I guess. He was largely responsible for the Cuban missile crisis and was essentially a communist dictator - and we all know how much people love those. He was also a strange figure though because he legitimately did things to lower class division and expand education and healthcare too - and he didn't really need to because he grew up quite wealthy. He was simultaneously one of the most loved and most hated leaders on Earth depending simply on whether you were a supporter or not.

Somewhere_ November 25th, 2016 10:12 PM

i usually dont cheer for people's deaths, but hell yes. He was a terrible human being and put Cuba's economy down the shithole.

sorry for the cussing, I'm kinda in a bad mood rn i try not to cuss, but ya

gimmepie November 25th, 2016 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9498537)
i usually dont cheer for people's deaths, but hell yes. He was a terrible human being and put Cuba's economy down the shithole.

sorry for the cussing, I'm kinda in a bad mood rn i try not to cuss, but ya

True enough I suppose, but you can't deny that he also greatly improved quality of life for the working class and promoted education. I think his was arguably one of the few cases where communism wasn't just used to satisfy his own greed.

I don't think Castro is someone you can look at in terms of just the black and white because everything he did was either completely terrible or the exact opposite with not much middle ground.

Ivysaur November 26th, 2016 3:29 AM

Dictatorships are bad. And yet you cannot say that he ran a purely extractive system in which poor people were forced to work for the profit of an elite, as in the USSR or in most African dictatorships. He was a product of his time, spending his youth fighting a right-wing US-sponsored dictatorship that kept people poor and oppressed. Despite still being poor and oppressed, his people are now better than they were before he rose to power. And they are better educated too, which hopefully means there will be a transition to a modern democracy once Raúl steps down. I just hope Trump doesn't try to go back to the "iron fist" treatment of the country, because the embargo is arguably the reason why the system has endured for so long: nothing better than a good enemy to rally around your people.

French president Hollande praised Fidel's lifetime stance against US involvement in their affairs. He rose because of it and he clung to power because of it. I hope Trump doesn't fuck this chance. Cuba deserves to finally end the Cold War.

Hands November 26th, 2016 7:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9498537)
i usually dont cheer for people's deaths, but hell yes. He was a terrible human being and put Cuba's economy down the ****hole.

sorry for the cussing, I'm kinda in a bad mood rn i try not to cuss, but ya

Yeah i can't imagine the US trade embargo had anything to do with it.

Ivysaur November 26th, 2016 9:06 AM

Trump's statement praising the Cuban exiles who endorsed him and calling him "a brutal dictator whose only legacy are firing squads, theft, uninimaginable suffering, poverty and the denial of fundamental rights" shows that my hopes are going down the drain. The embargo will endure, the thaw in relations will become frozen again and Cuba will remain a Communist dictatorship for another 4 years. With some bad luck, Trump will cause the transition in power after Raúl steps down in 2018 to be used as a way to entrench the system even further as a way to fight the "terrible orange-coloured imperialist" up there. This is terrible.

Funny how Trump he called the (mostly capitalist) Egyptian dictator Al-Sisi "a fantastic guy" for using the same firing squads to deny human rights to and brutally execute 800 people on a single day- but they were "islamic terrorists" so it's all good.

Somewhere_ November 26th, 2016 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 9498577)
True enough I suppose, but you can't deny that he also greatly improved quality of life for the working class and promoted education. I think his was arguably one of the few cases where communism wasn't just used to satisfy his own greed.

I don't think Castro is someone you can look at in terms of just the black and white because everything he did was either completely terrible or the exact opposite with not much middle ground.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113590852154334404
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789

I dont really want to get into an economic argument, but here are Fidel Castro's death count.

About 100,000 died because of Fidel Castro. If you want to count potential deaths, we can speculate how people people would have died in the Cuban Missile Crisis if it went wrong. Not to mention, he backed the USSR, which was responsible for 52-62 million deaths.

(just for my own reading, can you link me to sources that say the quality of life improved under Castro's regime?)

gimmepie November 26th, 2016 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9498976)
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113590852154334404
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789

I dont really want to get into an economic argument, but here are Fidel Castro's death count.

About 100,000 died because of Fidel Castro. If you want to count potential deaths, we can speculate how people people would have died in the Cuban Missile Crisis if it went wrong. Not to mention, he backed the USSR, which was responsible for 52-62 million deaths.

(just for my own reading, can you link me to sources that say the quality of life improved under Castro's regime?)

Like I said earlier, you can't really lump Castro into purely good or purely bad because whilst many things did go extremely poorly several aspects of Cuban society under his rule did improve. Here's are two excerpts from this article that looks at some of the pros and cons of his rule (it does seem to have a slight pro US bias at points for some reason as well so keep that in mind).

Quote:

The émigré community in the US would answer in a single word, none. They point to the economic problems of the island, its denial of political diversity, and its dreadful human rights record. But the Castro model of socialism can point to achievements as well. Despite its scant resources, Cuba has fashioned education and health care systems that would be the envy of far richer countries. Illiteracy has been eradicated, while life expectancy at birth in Cuba is about the same as in the US, despite healthcare spending per capita one 20th the size of that of its giant neighbour. The key has been a localised system of medicine, that puts a heavy emphasis on preventive treatment. More broadly, Castro has given Cuba a real sense of national identity. In this he has been unwittingly helped by the US, whose 45 years of persecution of Cuba have served to strengthen, not weaken, the regime.
Quote:

Has the Castro era produced any achievements?

Yes...

* Despite decades of economic embargo, life expectancy is virtually identical to that in the United States

* Cuba has more doctors per head of population than many far richer countries can boast

* It is ranked 52 out of 177 countries on the UN's human development index, which measures health, education and living standards

No...

* The economy is stagnant and income per head is lower than in much of Latin America

* External economic aid and support has dried up since the collapse of the Soviet Union

* Human rights violations are appalling and political opposition is ruthlessly silenced

So whilst there's definitely a lot of negatives, you can't really ignore that he did some good things too. He's won internationally recognized accolades for the positive work he's done for education and healthcare also if you're willing to accept wikipedia as a source (too lazy to check more into it atm).

I'd also point out that at least one point on that "no" list is largely the fault of the United States and that you shouldn't fault Cuba for Russia's actions - not to mention that the US likely had a similar body count in the first place if you want a comparison since it was engaged in plenty of proxy wars of its own.

Somewhere_ November 26th, 2016 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 9498984)
Like I said earlier, you can't really lump Castro into purely good or purely bad because whilst many things did go extremely poorly several aspects of Cuban society under his rule did improve. Here's are two excerpts from this article that looks at some of the pros and cons of his rule (it does seem to have a slight pro US bias at points for some reason as well so keep that in mind).






So whilst there's definitely a lot of negatives, you can't really ignore that he did some good things too. He's won internationally recognized accolades for the positive work he's done for education and healthcare also if you're willing to accept wikipedia as a source (too lazy to check more into it atm).

I'd also point out that at least one point on that "no" list is largely the fault of the United States and that you shouldn't fault Cuba for Russia's actions - not to mention that the US likely had a similar body count in the first place if you want a comparison since it was engaged in plenty of proxy wars of its own.

I didnt know about the education and healthcare. Interesting. Im going to look into that more.

I also want to compare how Fidel improved Cuba compared to the former regime considering both governments had total control over the economy.

You know I'm not a fan of the US government. xD

Ivysaur November 26th, 2016 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9498997)
I didnt know about the education and healthcare. Interesting. Im going to look into that more.

I also want to compare how Fidel improved Cuba compared to the former regime considering both governments had total control over the economy.

You know I'm not a fan of the US government. xD

According to an analysis from Kennedy (!), under Batista's dictatorship, "a Cuban family"'s weekly income was $6 ($50 adjusted for inflation). Current weekly GDP per capita is $116. So, while it is lower than in other places of Latin America, it is sill far larger than it was under Batista. All of that despite the embargo choking their economy and shielding them from most technological progress.

Incidentally, Kennedy also points out how the "anti-imperialist" part of the revolution started because, despite their suffering and poverty, the rich US neighbours only sent them help in form of... weapons so Batista could keep up the repression! Obviously it's no wonder that Cubans loathe the US in general, and that even a new, democratic Government would have frosty relations with their neighbour at best.

Caaethil November 27th, 2016 12:28 PM

Absolutely terrible man. No sympathy whatsoever. Communist dictator with a list of disgraceful acts as long as my arm.

Hitler did good things too which improved life in Germany for a lot of people, but that doesn't excuse killing the Jews. Obviously an extreme example but I see this the same way.

Somewhere_ November 27th, 2016 2:28 PM

Thoughts on Justin Trudeau's comments on Fidel Castro?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/world/americas/justin-trudeau-fidel-castro.html?_r=0

Thoughts on Donald Trump's comments on Fidel Castro?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/26/here-is-donald-trumps-reaction-to-fidel-castros-death/

Both statements really conflict with each other and demonstrate two totally different viewpoints. Trudeau has been criticized, but is this the way Trump should really be acting (celebrating the death of a former wold leader)?

Ivysaur November 27th, 2016 2:31 PM

Gerald Ford's statement on Mao Zedong: https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0122/1253020.pdf

Now guess which one of the two you linked to this one resembles more closely.

Hint: is the one who actually has a clue about how these things work out of the two.

Kanzler November 27th, 2016 4:46 PM

I can't believe he managed to make Cuba go communist. Right in America's backyard, too.

Sir Codin November 27th, 2016 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanzler (Post 9500247)
I can't believe he managed to make Cuba go communist. Right in America's backyard, too.

Which resulted in an embargo that the country was too fucking stubborn to lift for a half century.

Pinkie-Dawn November 27th, 2016 7:33 PM

I'm not sure how to feel about this. On one hand, Castro provided better education and healthcare than the U.S., showing that it is possible to have a Communist country without corruption, but on the other hand, he's still done some terrible things in Cuba, but the importance education and healthcare are prioritized over everything else, because that's two of the main issues going on in the United States and is in need attention.

Margaery Tyrell November 27th, 2016 8:14 PM

I don't think anybody is in denial of Castro's repressive and violent actions during his regime but as some people have noted, under his regime, Cuba gained an excellent health care and educational system (100% literacy rate geez).

I think its also important to keep in mind that despite the poverty Cuba experienced, Cuba faced what was essentially economic warfare (and countless militant attacks besides) from the US that stifled their economy

I also had no idea until recently that sex-transitioning was free in Cuba and discrimination based on sexual orientation (at least in employment) is nationally prohibited*

So...lots of pros and cons lmao

*i'm not sure if either of these things can be attributed to Castro's efforts however, as he was known for his own homophobia

Sothis November 27th, 2016 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9500122)
Thoughts on Justin Trudeau's comments on Fidel Castro?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/world/americas/justin-trudeau-fidel-castro.html?_r=0

Thoughts on Donald Trump's comments on Fidel Castro?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/26/here-is-donald-trumps-reaction-to-fidel-castros-death/

Both statements really conflict with each other and demonstrate two totally different viewpoints. Trudeau has been criticized, but is this the way Trump should really be acting (celebrating the death of a former wold leader)?

I dunno what Trudeau was thinking, most people view Castro in a negative light so this may hurt his popularity.

gimmepie November 28th, 2016 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren (Post 9500514)
I dunno what Trudeau was thinking, most people view Castro in a negative light so this may hurt his popularity.

I think both of those responses were one-sided, although Trump's and Pence's were definitely worse (although that's not surprising considering America still lives in the Red Scare whilst most of the world has moved on). On the one had, Trudeau is all but completely ignoring the horrors of Castro's regime whilst on the other Trump and Pence are ignoring all the positive things he did - you know like creating healthcare ad education systems superior to the US with access to far less money. Hell, in part of the Trump article it actually looked like Castro was being criticized for the positive things he did. Basically both of them are idiots.

It bothers me that people are so incapable of seeing anything outside of a black and white perspective. I don't see why we can't condemn him for violence and celebrate the positive changes he made at the same time.

Hands November 28th, 2016 2:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9498976)
About 100,000 died because of Fidel Castro. )

That's a right wing estimate. Others have it as low as 10,000 (as this is the actual confirmed number, and not the 'estimate' that the West decided)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html

Conversely we know of at least 500,000 who died because of Bush/Blair. If we want to simplify things we can say that Castro was known to be responsible for 10,000 deaths in Cuba, whereas US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are both sitting on 250,000 dead Iraqis each.

This whole anti Castro sentiment only really exists because we were told to hate him because he's a "dirty stinkin' Red". Was he infallible? Of course not, he done some pretty trashy things, but every US president during his tenure, with the exception of Kennedy and Carter, have overseen far worse than Castro did. That of course includes the ridiculous trade embargo which was designed to starve the Cuban people into submission (perhaps Obama's greatest legacy will be his attempt to undo some of the damage from this). This idea, this lie that Castro was somehow this evil monster despite his accomplishments in improving/implementing healthcare, education and (although a minor increase) the economy all whilst fighting off US efforts of subterfuge, sabotage and outright state funded and organised murder of a head of state of another country and whilst juggling the most economically crippling embargo in modern times that was designed solely to starve the Cuban people into submission is frankly wearing very thin now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honours_bestowed_upon_Fidel_Castro

It's worth noting that only America and her puppet satellite friends seems to have this ridiculously skewed and bias view on Castro, the developing world loved him and saw him as a beacon of hope who not only managed to smash a US imposed Military dictator who gave free run of the country to gangsters and forced what was essentially slave labour on the people, but also turned a failing Banana republic into a country that, whilst still poor, was wildly better off than it had been and was able to stand on it's own two feet despite having the biggest economic power in the world trying to rip it apart for six decades straight,

Shamol November 28th, 2016 3:11 PM

If you want me to be really succinct- Castro was a huge mixed bag, and we should remember him as such. On one hand, horrible repressive communist dictator, cracked down on dissenting voices, and until recently there was no such thing as a private industry in Cuba. On the other, 99% literacy rate, universal healthcare, and Cuba is now a doctor-churning machine.

Kyle Kulinski had a rather nuanced segment on this issue, I think it's worth a listen:



Also, "he was a fascist and hence deserves condemnation" is somewhat ironic coming from the US- the government had no problem propping up dictators and questionable governments when it benefited them. Two examples particularly relevant are the South African apartheid (a conflict where Castro sided with Mandela) and Cuba's Fulgencio Batista, who Castro came to replace.

Somewhere_ November 28th, 2016 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 9500638)
That's a right wing estimate. Others have it as low as 10,000 (as this is the actual confirmed number, and not the 'estimate' that the West decided)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html

Conversely we know of at least 500,000 who died because of Bush/Blair. If we want to simplify things we can say that Castro was known to be responsible for 10,000 deaths in Cuba, whereas US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are both sitting on 250,000 dead Iraqis each.

This whole anti Castro sentiment only really exists because we were told to hate him because he's a "dirty stinkin' Red". Was he infallible? Of course not, he done some pretty trashy things, but every US president during his tenure, with the exception of Kennedy and Carter, have overseen far worse than Castro did. That of course includes the ridiculous trade embargo which was designed to starve the Cuban people into submission (perhaps Obama's greatest legacy will be his attempt to undo some of the damage from this). This idea, this lie that Castro was somehow this evil monster despite his accomplishments in improving/implementing healthcare, education and (although a minor increase) the economy all whilst fighting off US efforts of subterfuge, sabotage and outright state funded and organised murder of a head of state of another country and whilst juggling the most economically crippling embargo in modern times that was designed solely to starve the Cuban people into submission is frankly wearing very thin now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honours_bestowed_upon_Fidel_Castro

It's worth noting that only America and her puppet satellite friends seems to have this ridiculously skewed and bias view on Castro, the developing world loved him and saw him as a beacon of hope who not only managed to smash a US imposed Military dictator who gave free run of the country to gangsters and forced what was essentially slave labour on the people, but also turned a failing Banana republic into a country that, whilst still poor, was wildly better off than it had been and was able to stand on it's own two feet despite having the biggest economic power in the world trying to rip it apart for six decades straight,

You can't really dampen my argument for using "right-wing estimates" and then use a Huffington Post article. (although coincidently I am totally 100% against the Iraq War)

And other president's acts dont somehow make Castro's okay. And I never actually defended those presidents? I dont really see your point here considering I severely dislike the Bush's.

Of course the developing world saw him as a beacon of hope: he was anti-imperialist during the Cold War.

And Castro hardly stood alone- he received massive aid from the USSR.

Hands November 29th, 2016 3:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9501289)
You can't really dampen my argument for using "right-wing estimates" and then use a Huffington Post article. (although coincidently I am totally 100% against the Iraq War)

And other president's acts dont somehow make Castro's okay. And I never actually defended those presidents? I dont really see your point here considering I severely dislike the Bush's.

Of course the developing world saw him as a beacon of hope: he was anti-imperialist during the Cold War.

And Castro hardly stood alone- he received massive aid from the USSR.

Well when one is an estimate that's 10x higher than the actual known figure and the other is a straight known figure I think, in this case, i can use the HuffPost.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=iraq+war+death+toll&oq=iraq+war+death+toll&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0l5.5087j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Feel free to take your pick though if you don't want to count the HP.

In regards to the USSR thing, so what? So what if he traded some sugar for fuel? How would you of kept your rapidly collapsing country afloat when the then world super power was blocking you trade with just about every big trader there is? Castro attempted to approach the Americans in early 1960 but was refused a meeting with Eisenhower. Such was Castro's interest in reaching an amicable peace with the Americans that Khrushchev's people genuinely believed him to be in cahoots with the CIA (http://www.americanheritage.com/content/how-my-father-and-president-kenedy-saved-world is an interesting article, that also touches on this). Castro didn't turn to the USSR until after your lot refused him a fair hearing and increased the horrid embargo on the Cubans. So please don't whinge about him being in the arms of the USSR when you're the ones who pushed him there.

Further to this, him making trade deals with the only power he could absolutely does not mean Cuba did not stand on it's own two feet. I mean, Casto's Cuba has outlived the USSR by nearly a quarter century now.

Edit: Just realised I didn't address the comment about his negative actions not being any less bad just because Western leaders have done far worse in a far shorter timespan. That is true, Castro behaved awfully at times. But when people are highlighting him as some insane and noteworthy monster that was nothing short of pure evil, whilst not making the same public calls about their own countries and leaders it's kind of hypocritical. I mean, yes, for a while he was terrible to LBGT people, but then he completely decriminalised it in 1979, which is actually around 25 years (give or take) before the entirety of the USA decriminalised homosexuality. Yes he threw people into horrible labour camps, similar to how the US has had prisoners working lines for decades now. Yes he had political dissidents shot, a little like the 680+ times the USA tried to have Castro killed.

Whatever way you want to spin it, Castro was no worse, and was in many cases a far better, human being and leader than his Western counterparts. No amount of post cold war McCarthyism can change that.


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