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-   -   Should the Swastika still be considered evil? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=386616)

TheTopHatGhost December 31st, 2016 2:53 AM

Should the Swastika still be considered evil?
 
Note (An important one): I am not discussing if Facism/Racism/Nazism is not evil anymore. I am discussing about the religious symbol that has been used for thousands of years.

The Swastika was used as a symbol of peace, unity and is the main symbol of Jainism, Hinduism and is an important part of many other religions. The word Swastika is based off the Sanskrit word Svastika, loosely meaning 'self-existing'. It was part of many old cultures. However, when the Nazi party adopted it, it became a universal (Apart from quite a bit of Asia) symbol of hate. It has been quite a while since the end of the Nazi party, though, and many religions still use the symbol, so should it be accepted into society as a symbol of peace and unity again?

gimmepie December 31st, 2016 3:45 AM

Well for one thing there's a difference between the Nazi symbol and the original Swastika. The religious symbol has flat sections at the top and bottom not the points and the protrusions face the opposite direction.

Seeing as the two are similar, but actually different symbols overall, I don't see why both sides of this debate can't be correct. The religious symbol can still be a symbol of peace and unity but the Nazi Swastika is always going to represent a genocidal ideology of hatred and segregation.

Pmurt Dlanod December 31st, 2016 5:59 AM

Well, for starters, the Swastika was never "evil." That's just ridiculous. It is a symbol of peace, and sometimes, you need peace through strength. Such is fascism.

gimmepie December 31st, 2016 7:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmurt Dlanod (Post 9534422)
Well, for starters, the Swastika was never "evil." That's just ridiculous. It is a symbol of peace, and sometimes, you need peace through strength. Such is fascism.

Please tell me you're not trying to imply that fascism is ever a good idea or that anything Hitler/The Nazi party did was in the name of peace.

Kanzler December 31st, 2016 7:42 AM

Still evil, what with neo-Naziism and far-rightism on the rise.

Arsenic December 31st, 2016 8:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 9534351)
The religious symbol has flat sections at the top and bottom not the points and the protrusions face the opposite direction.

You could have just said it is rotated 45 degrees. They are no more a different symbol that the US Army star would have been upside down.

Or a better comparison would be the cross, a religious symbol used by the KKK.


As for if it is still evil, no. It's as evil as the color red is for being the choice of communism.

Even if all the racists and neo-Nazi's are coming out in the west because their candidates are winning elections in the west, we shouldn't ruin a symbols good meaning because they misuse it.

Esper December 31st, 2016 11:06 AM

Neo nazis are around and still using the symbol, and so are people in parts of the world where it denotes a religious idea or place. If you're in Asian and you see it carved out of stone on a temple wall then you can probably assume it has nothing to do with nazis, but if you see it graffiti'd somewhere (especially in areas where Hinduism, Buddhism, and the like are not and have never been common) then you've got a neo nazi (or some idiot troll) around trying to make people afraid, mad, or uncomfortable. That person isn't making a peace offering. As long as there are people espousing and being sympathetic to or (un)intentionally paralleling nazi ideas the swastika can't ever shake off its racist and deadly associations as a hate symbol.

Pmurt Dlanod December 31st, 2016 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 9534478)
Please tell me you're not trying to imply that fascism is ever a good idea or that anything Hitler/The Nazi party did was in the name of peace.

Not quite. I don't want to go off-topic here, but genocidal violence isn't the strength I meant. After all, not all fascists are violent (or at least not to that extent). One authoritarian regime gone wrong should not ruin a symbol of peace, like countless terrorist attacks, according to the left, should not reflect upon Islam. Sometimes, authoritarianism, if relatively peaceful, can tame the far-left, and that's needed now.

gimmepie December 31st, 2016 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmurt Dlanod (Post 9534657)
Not quite. I don't want to go off-topic here, but genocidal violence isn't the strength I meant. After all, not all fascists are violent (or at least not to that extent). One authoritarian regime gone wrong should not ruin a symbol of peace, like countless terrorist attacks, according to the left, should not reflect upon Islam. Sometimes, authoritarianism, if relatively peaceful, can tame the far-left, and that's needed now.

Well there's still things in there I definitely disagree with, but that's a fair enough statement for the most part. Might make for an interesting thread in and of itself actually.

Star-Lord December 31st, 2016 11:59 AM

Neo-Nazi groups today are still using it in the name of anti-semitism/racism so as far as I'm concerned, yes, it should still be "evil".

As far as the difference between the original sign or w/e... It's too easy to conflate it with the one popularized through nazism so frankly I don't even understand why someone would want to use it.

Trev December 31st, 2016 2:18 PM

Speaking only in terms of the United States here. Look at these two pictures.



What would you call this? You'd probably say "that's the Nazi salute." And you'd be right - for the second one. The first one is the Bellamy salute. Without me telling you that, you may or may not have known that they weren't the same thing. If I hadn't known about the Bellamy salute, I wouldn't have been able to guess, and even if you showed me pictures of random schoolchildren doing either the Bellamy salute or the Nazi salute, I would still guess Nazi salute 90% of the time.

This is part of the reason the swastika is still considered evil. If I showed someone this picture:



and they didn't know that it was from Hinduism, they would call it a Swastika. That's why this whole argument about "well it's part of Hinduism" is really irrelevant, at least in the United States. I don't know about other countries and how they would approach something like this, but I know that's how it'd happen here.

Knowledge is important. Knowing the difference between things like the Hindu swastika and the German swastika is important. But it's also important to recognize that most people don't know that difference. Most people immediately associate these symbols with Nazism. That's why it's still considered evil (and should be) despite the origins.

Now, context matters. If you're seeing these symbols in, say, a country that primarily practices Hinduism, it's important to be culturally aware enough to understand the importance behind those symbols so you don't yell at a practicing Hindu child for having a swastika on their head during their Upanayana. Outside of these contexts, though, it's probably not a good idea to argue that this symbol is associated with good things.

Somewhere_ December 31st, 2016 5:40 PM

The meaning of symbols can change over time, but until something regarding the symbol changes, it still represents evil.

Aliencommander1245 January 1st, 2017 4:44 AM

Why shouldn't it, is a better question I suppose? When it's still a hateful symbol still being utilised by hateful people I don't see how you even could arbitrarily change the distinction of it. You can hardly just make a decree that this symbol doesn't represent that anymore considering symbols gain the power of symbolism through cultural & public views on them

Hands January 2nd, 2017 6:02 AM

The swastika is a symbol of the great evil of fascism, whatever it meant before that is no longer as prevalent as the dark association it now has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmurt Dlanod (Post 9534657)
Not quite. I don't want to go off-topic here, but genocidal violence isn't the strength I meant. After all, not all fascists are violent (or at least not to that extent). One authoritarian regime gone wrong should not ruin a symbol of peace, like countless terrorist attacks, according to the left, should not reflect upon Islam. Sometimes, authoritarianism, if relatively peaceful, can tame the far-left, and that's needed now.

Yeah those awful far lefties wanting equal rights for all citizens and basic education at a state level that's accessible to all children. And as for helping the homeless? WELL! Thankfully we have authoritarian fascists who would do the humane thing and just lob them all in camps.

Somewhere_ January 2nd, 2017 6:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 9536150)
Yeah those awful far lefties wanting equal rights for all citizens and basic education at a state level that's accessible to all children. And as for helping the homeless? WELL! Thankfully we have authoritarian fascists who would do the humane thing and just lob them all in camps.

I think he is referencing the Far-Left as the USSR apologists, Left-Anarchists, communists, and Far-Left parties. Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Democrats are not the Far-Left. These ideologies are relatively moderate compared to the Far-Left.

Lets also not forget the death count of the communists in the 20th century. Historically, fascists have killed far less people than Far-Left regimes. Add the total of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, *Pinochet, and Tojo and compare that with the USSR, China, and Cuba (I'm listing the latter as countries because the fascists only had 1 ruler while the communists lasted longer). Even if you compare ruler to ruler, Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

But this is not an argument in favor of fascism. Fascism is responsible for some of the greatest evils of the world including war and genocide. It is inexcusable what fascists have done and fascism should be rejected and shut away.

In short, the evils of the USSR or the Far-Left do not justify the evils of fascism, or vice-versa. The Swastika is still a symbol of Nazism.

*Pinochet is arguably a fascist because he demonstrated characteristics of fascists, such as silencing and killing opposition, running a single-party state, and being authoritarian and nationalistic in nature. However, he introduced free market reforms and abided by the constitution, leaving his position with a democratic vote.

Cay January 2nd, 2017 8:32 PM

you cant exactly reverse 6 million deaths so yeah

TheTopHatGhost January 3rd, 2017 8:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star-Lord (Post 9534687)
As far as the difference between the original sign or w/e... It's too easy to conflate it with the one popularized through nazism so frankly I don't even understand why someone would want to use it.

Although I understand what you mean, Jainism uses the swastika for its symbols, and has done it for a long time. I'm not sure that a major religion like Jainism would give up its symbol just because of a brutal regime from an entirely different continent. Hinduism, the fourth biggest religion in the world with 1 billion followers is also not going to give up their symbol so easily.

Hands January 4th, 2017 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTopHatGhost (Post 9537134)
Although I understand what you mean, Jainism uses the swastika for its symbols, and has done it for a long time. I'm not sure that a major religion like Jainism would give up its symbol just because of a brutal regime from an entirely different continent. Hinduism, the fourth biggest religion in the world with 1 billion followers is also not going to give up their symbol so easily.

And no one (that I've ever seen) opposes to those groups and their members/followers from using their symbols in that context. But in a Western context, used by white people who are not linked to those religions? Then yeah, it still is, and always will be, a symbol of hate.

Star-Lord January 4th, 2017 4:15 AM

I mean obviously there's no problem with them being used that way. Fortunately I know enough about Jainism and Hinduism respectively to understand how the symbol is used, but it's just more a personal musing than anything lol

Trev January 4th, 2017 6:54 AM

Unfortunately, we can't expect most Westerners to be culturally aware enough to observe the distinction. As someone who has lived here for his entire life, I can tell you through experience that #mostnotall Americans are really clueless when it comes to symbols relating to any religion that isn't Christianity, so even if they saw a traditional Hindu/Jaini swastika in a Hindu/Jaini context, they'd probably still lose their shit over it.

Somewhere_ January 4th, 2017 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trev (Post 9537983)
Unfortunately, we can't expect most Westerners to be culturally aware enough to observe the distinction. As someone who has lived here for his entire life, I can tell you through experience that #mostnotall Americans are really clueless when it comes to symbols relating to any religion that isn't Christianity, so even if they saw a traditional Hindu/Jaini swastika in a Hindu/Jaini context, they'd probably still lose their **** over it.

Do you have evidence that most Americans dont know symbols other than Christianity and that they would have an emotional reaction to those symbols?

In addition, its not Westerners being culturally unaware. Its that the symbols have to be taken within context of the culture and to Westerners, other meanings are irrelevant because the great majority of Westerners do not observe those customs or religions.

Trev January 4th, 2017 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadSheep (Post 9538131)
Do you have evidence that most Americans dont know symbols other than Christianity and that they would have an emotional reaction to those symbols?

In addition, its not Westerners being culturally unaware. Its that the symbols have to be taken within context of the culture and to Westerners, other meanings are irrelevant because the great majority of Westerners do not observe those customs or religions.

I would say that, just from my own personal experiences, people tend not to know too much outside of their own bubble. I will say that culture awareness has definitely been improving, but in this specific discussion, the Hindu/Jaini swastika is a bit more obscure and I doubt many would be as accustomed to it as they would something from the more prominent Christian religions.

Also, that is literally cultural unawareness. I just didn't describe it like that haha

Esper January 4th, 2017 1:42 PM

For the Olympics in Tokyo the maps in subways and around the place are being changed to replace the swastikas that used to be there because of the large numbers of Western tourists expected to attend. Normally maps will use the symbol to designate the location of a shrine or temple, but someone, somewhere either knew enough about this or had it suggested to them so they're making the change.

I know it's not exactly about this debate, but it's related and interesting.

Hands January 5th, 2017 3:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esper (Post 9538199)
For the Olympics in Tokyo the maps in subways and around the place are being changed to replace the swastikas that used to be there because of the large numbers of Western tourists expected to attend. Normally maps will use the symbol to designate the location of a shrine or temple, but someone, somewhere either knew enough about this or had it suggested to them so they're making the change.

I know it's not exactly about this debate, but it's related and interesting.

Japan was an axis power, so it makes sense they'd want to avoid any association with their past in that respect.

Sektor January 28th, 2017 7:33 PM

I'm going to have to say by itself, no. Now, many here have already pointed out that Hinduism also utilizes a similar symbol but there are several different religious sects that also utilize similar, if not the same exact symbol.

The Swastika or Suavastika can trace its roots all the way back to the pyramids. It doesn't take much research to show this. I will, however, acknowledge that in the right circumstance, the Swastika is a symbol of terrible crimes such as the Eagle clutching the Swastika or the Nazi Flag. Anything that is traced and associated with the Third Reich, yes, bad. Anything not associated with the third Reich? Not bad. There are symbols that you probably didn't even know that are technically Swastikas I'll bet. Now, the Nazis did indeed abuse the symbol itself and have damned the thing to oblivion, however, the Swastika alone is not evil. There are parameters that must be met. If someone is attempting to utilize it to convey hate, yes, bad. If they're using it to pray? Not bad (unless they're praying to Hitler or something akin to this).

There needs to be a time where one can step back and disconnect themselves from symbols and objects and look at them as they are: objectively. If the Swastika is on an ancient coin, is it evil? How can it be if the symbol itself predates the acts of hatred by over 2000 years? What if the symbol is depicted on the wall of a pyramid? I think it's much more situational than people like to think. Now, when someone draws a Swastika, chances are that unless they're praying or using it for informational purposes they're probably drawing it to be 'funny' or controversial because the Nazi symbol is the general consensus revolving the Swastika.


TL;DR Nazi Symbolism = Bad. Suavastika/Swastika = Not Bad unless Nazi Symbolism.

Here, I'll give you a gallery to save you time:
Spoiler:













I hope I helped inform someone at least a little bit. Nazi Symbolism is far different than Buddhist, Hindu or other symbolism. I don't like Nazis, by the way.


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