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gimmepie January 25th, 2017 3:10 PM

Nationalism
 
Nationalism is in essence feelings of patriotism and national pride although it is also often characterised as a sense of superiority over other nations. Do you think it makes sense to feel pride or superiority based on where you live or where you were born? Is nationalism beneficial, harmful or otherwise?

Discuss and feel free to go into more detail than just with those couple of questions.

Mewtwolover January 26th, 2017 12:03 AM

Nationalism is good thing, it's the immune system of a nation. It's shame that people in western world is forgetting that because it has been made "politically incorrect", they even teach kids in schools that nationalism is bad thing.

Her January 26th, 2017 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mewtwolover (Post 9557058)
Nationalism is good thing, it's the immune system of a nation. It's shame that people in western world is forgetting that because it has been made "politically incorrect", they even teach kids in schools that nationalism is bad thing.

Okay but like... why is nationalism a good thing? What makes it central to a prospering nation? You haven't actually explained anything other than the idea that it is apparently a politically incorrect buzzword.

Hands January 26th, 2017 2:35 AM

Nationalism is for the weak of mind who have no substance to themselves so instead they pretend the place they were born in someone makes them special.

Loving your country is patriotism, believing your place of origin to be a factor of value in yourself is nationalism.

Nah January 26th, 2017 5:26 AM

It's not a feeling I see why why people should feel. Why feel proud that the lottery of life happened to place you in this one specific geographic location (out of many), and when whatever might be great about it has fuck all to do with you?

Somewhere_ January 26th, 2017 5:53 AM

What kind of nationalism are we talking about here?

Nationalism in a fascistic sense, where the benefit of the State supersedes the individual? (pro-government)

Nationalism in the sense that we should do what is best for most people on a national scale? For example, Henry Clay's American System.

Nationalism regarding race? Such as white nationalism (KKK) or black nationalism (Black Panthers).

Nationalism regarding culture?

I think these various types of nationalists can either be good or bad. Like fascistic and racial nationalism is nasty and horrid, but cultural nationalism can be good. American System sort of nationalism can either be good or bad depending on the policy, but at the very least, the intent is good, unlike racial or fascistic nationalism.

Sothis January 26th, 2017 7:03 AM

Do I think I'm better than others because I'm Canadian? No

Esper January 26th, 2017 1:20 PM

Patriotism, that is, standing up for good values embodied in your country or homeland, and generally feeling good about your country is anything from benign to good. Nationalism is the ugly backside of patriotism where, at best, it's benign, but very easily can turn to scapegoating or get violent. Not to bring up the Nazis, but, well, the Nazis.

It's understandable that people are wired to protect "their own" and to have an "us vs. them" mindset, but since we're rational human beings capable of higher thinking and we can learn from past mistakes and successes, we should be able to see that there is a great benefit to being open and accepting of people outside of "our own" and that marginalizing is dangerous.

Like, imagine if every country was all super nationalist. There'd be wars, most likely, but even without wars there would be other problems that could lead to wars. Competition over resources (like, for instance, fish) could wipe out that resource. Calls to limit the amount each county fishes would be ignored because you'd have a prisoner's dilemma situation. It would be in each country's interests to take as much as they can. Another thing that could happen is a pandemic. If one country collapsed or otherwise couldn't provide for its people, then no other country would and you would have a large, desperate population of people carrying disease which would eventually spread to other countries.

Cooperation is just the better option.

Lipstick Vogue January 26th, 2017 10:46 PM

Hard to not feel pride when you're born in the nation that built the world.

Hands January 26th, 2017 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lipstick Vogue (Post 9557699)
Hard to not feel pride when you're born in the nation that built the world.

"Built the world" Oh God.

We raped and pillaged a bunch of poor people, enslaved them, wiped out indigenous cultures and peoples wherever we went, we deliberately spread deadly diseases to the Native Americans through plague blankets which we pretended were acts of kindness, we caused numerous wars, had the worst living conditions in Europe for our people, ran our own children into slavery, oppressed our neighbour and put them into a serious famine and absolutely demolished Africa before pulling out and creating a massive power vacuum in several countries.

If you're proud of that then you're frankly terrible.

Kostas January 27th, 2017 12:05 AM

I don't want to talk about the whole nationalism discussion, but I would lile to tell a few things about the pride someone feels.

I'm sorry but I think it makes 100% sense to be proud of your country. I'm very proud of my country. I think we contributed a lot, especially in Medicine, medical science, maths, even vocabulary because you're using many Greek words. Also, don't forget that here is the start of democracy at the ancient times. I think everyone would be proud of all these. And actually, there are other reasons that I'm proud.

I just don't understand why is it so bad if someone feels proud of his/her country.

Hands January 27th, 2017 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostas (Post 9557731)
I don't want to talk about the whole nationalism discussion, but I would lile to tell a few things about the pride someone feels.

I'm sorry but I think it makes 100% sense to be proud of your country. I'm very proud of my country. I think we contributed a lot, especially in Medicine, medical science, maths, even vocabulary because you're using many Greek words. Also, don't forget that here is the start of democracy at the ancient times. I think everyone would be proud of all these. And actually, there are other reasons that I'm proud.

I just don't understand why is it so bad if someone feels proud of his/her country.

But are you proud of yourself for being born in that country? Or are you simply proud of the positive changes it has made? Virtually all of those listed came from ancient Greece, as opposed to the past 300 years which is what most right wing British/American nationalists hold onto

Kostas January 27th, 2017 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 9557739)
But are you proud of yourself for being born in that country? Or are you simply proud of the positive changes it has made? Virtually all of those listed came from ancient Greece, as opposed to the past 300 years which is what most right wing British/American nationalists hold onto

I'm just proud of my country and what it did, and not only in ancient times. I think every person is proud here and that actually doesn't make you a nationalist

Hands January 27th, 2017 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostas (Post 9557741)
I'm just proud of my country and what it did, and not only in ancient times. I think every person is proud here and that actually doesn't make you a nationalist

Then it isn't really nationalism, that's patriotism. I love England, I wouldn't trade her for the world, but I understand we have done awful, awful things under her flag, even to your country in 1944 where we ran the machine guns of Spitfires into crowds of people who had helped us fight the Nazis because we were afraid of your progress.

Ivysaur January 27th, 2017 2:48 AM

I think the difference here is between being proud of the accomplishments of the people that came before you and thinking that those past accomplishments other people did get channelled into every newborn and somehow make you personally better by default than someone else from a different country.

gimmepie January 27th, 2017 3:03 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of positive things your country or people from your country have achieved. Although patriotism makes as little sense as nationalism since you have no control over where you're born. At least patriotism isn't harmful though.

Nationalism on the other hand is kind of repulsive. Not only does it have the same nonsensical nature as patriotism but it's harmful because it creates an "us" and "them" mentality that promotes conflict both within your borders and between nations.

Nah January 27th, 2017 5:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostas (Post 9557731)
I'm sorry but I think it makes 100% sense to be proud of your country. I'm very proud of my country. I think we contributed a lot, especially in Medicine, medical science, maths, even vocabulary because you're using many Greek words. Also, don't forget that here is the start of democracy at the ancient times. I think everyone would be proud of all these. And actually, there are other reasons that I'm proud.

I just don't understand why is it so bad if someone feels proud of his/her country.

I mean, I can get looking at things a country has done and going "yeah, this place did a lot of good things". I can look at the USA and go "there's good things that this country has done" (whatever those "good things" might be), but why are those things something I should personally feel good about? I just happen to live here.

More saying that it just really doesn't make sense to me, not so much that it's "bad".

Though there are a good chunk of people who are nationalistic whose pride kinda makes them.....basically xenophobic really.

pastelspectre January 27th, 2017 11:25 AM

i don't understand why anyone would be proud of america and be proud of living here considering all the terrible things we've done

whatever floats their boat though i guess

Somewhere_ January 27th, 2017 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esper (Post 9557424)
Patriotism, that is, standing up for good values embodied in your country or homeland, and generally feeling good about your country is anything from benign to good. Nationalism is the ugly backside of patriotism where, at best, it's benign, but very easily can turn to scapegoating or get violent. Not to bring up the Nazis, but, well, the Nazis.

It's understandable that people are wired to protect "their own" and to have an "us vs. them" mindset, but since we're rational human beings capable of higher thinking and we can learn from past mistakes and successes, we should be able to see that there is a great benefit to being open and accepting of people outside of "our own" and that marginalizing is dangerous.

Like, imagine if every country was all super nationalist. There'd be wars, most likely, but even without wars there would be other problems that could lead to wars. Competition over resources (like, for instance, fish) could wipe out that resource. Calls to limit the amount each county fishes would be ignored because you'd have a prisoner's dilemma situation. It would be in each country's interests to take as much as they can. Another thing that could happen is a pandemic. If one country collapsed or otherwise couldn't provide for its people, then no other country would and you would have a large, desperate population of people carrying disease which would eventually spread to other countries.

Cooperation is just the better option.

to sort of add to what you said, economic nationalism is pretty bad too. Totally closing off borders to foreigners and refusing to trade certainly can't help.

Mareep123 January 27th, 2017 2:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 9556801)
Nationalism is in essence feelings of patriotism and national pride although it is also often characterised as a sense of superiority over other nations. Do you think it makes sense to feel pride or superiority based on where you live or where you were born? Is nationalism beneficial, harmful or otherwise?

Discuss and feel free to go into more detail than just with those couple of questions.

I think it's good to feel pride about where you come from. As a proud Yorkshire woman I feel it...but to think your superior because of where you come from is not cool and really that is the line! It's a lottery as to where we are born in this world....

gimmepie January 27th, 2017 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mareep123 (Post 9558228)
I think it's good to feel pride about where you come from. As a proud Yorkshire woman I feel it...but to think your superior because of where you come from is not cool and really that is the line! It's a lottery as to where we are born in this world....

But, why is it good? You just happened to win Yorkshire in the lottery of life. Why does it make sense to feel pride in that?

Mareep123 January 28th, 2017 5:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 9558484)
But, why is it good? You just happened to win Yorkshire in the lottery of life. Why does it make sense to feel pride in that?

I think it's important to feel pride in where you come from. Surely pride creates a sense of responsibility for your local area/community, which can only be a good thing? As to the lottery comment that was more in relation to superiority rather than pride....nobody is better than someone else on the basis of their origins as it was a lottery that put them there in the first place!

Trev January 29th, 2017 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mareep123 (Post 9558664)
I think it's important to feel pride in where you come from. Surely pride creates a sense of responsibility for your local area/community, which can only be a good thing? As to the lottery comment that was more in relation to superiority rather than pride....nobody is better than someone else on the basis of their origins as it was a lottery that put them there in the first place!

This really comes down to how we define words. What you're talking about (pride that leads to responsibility) is patriotism, essentially. It's recognizing that your country is great and privileged, and that you can use that status to uplift others. Nationalism is a way of thinking that places your country in a position of pure morality that absolves it of any wrongdoing, even when it does stuff like committing human rights violations or stunting the growth of other nations in the interest of uplifting itself.

Crizzle January 29th, 2017 10:49 AM

Pride in your country is fine but it shouldn't be necessary. Also, you shouldn't feel superior to others just because you happened to be born in a particular country.

Aeroblast January 29th, 2017 11:31 AM

Nationalism, in a sense, is wanting to put the interests of one's own country over those of others. Such sentiments are, I would argue, borne from wanting a sense of belonging (part of Maslow's hierarchy of needs), which is, more often than not, provided amongst people who live in the same country as you do by sharing common culture, birthplace, country, and language.

As for feeling superior over other nations... yes, unfortunately extreme nationalism can lead to jingoism/chauvinism, which isn't something I advocate as such sentiments have led to devastating wars. But extremism isn't healthy in any ideology anyways.

Lastly, I think it's important to separate nationalism and racism, which I think are two different ideas that are conflated too often, although there are some instances of overlap.


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