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If you voted for Clinton, you have no right to complain about Trump.
By participating in the delusional ritual referred to as "democracy" and the "political process", you are legitimizing Trump's and the Republicans' authority to implement all the crappy and immoral policies they want to implement. I call these rituals delusional because they pretend to give human beings with "authority" the right to carry out immoral actions as long as it's "the law".
Here's a reminder: everything Hitler and the Nazis did was "lawful" in Germany. It didn't turn those evil acts into good acts, and they had no right to murder all the people they did or start WW2. You voted knowing full well the results of the election could go either way, even if you believed that Clinton had a much better chance at winning the presidency than Trump. You voted knowing full well that whoever won would have the "authority" that comes with being "president", which was the most idiotic and unnecessary gamble I can think of. You played the game of "democracy" and lost. Take responsibility instead of acting as if you have nothing to do with all the nonsense Trump is doing right now. I also have a suggestion for the coming elections: Don't vote and force your ideals and opinions on others. Let people live life the way they want as long as they don't interfere with yours. It's called Voluntaryism, learn it. All comments, rebuttals, questions etc. are welcomed! |
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyways, here is my reply: I think Hitler is a poor example to use as an argument against the social contract because, while he did take power legally, he maintained it illegally through manipulation. And he burned down the Reichstag building too, so there was no voting him out after that. By voting you legitimize the political process and consent to whomever wins the election, but this does not revoke your right to complain if your candidate loses. I believe that Clinton supporters have a right to complain about Trump's presidency because they actually went out to vote as opposed to not participating in the election process. If one instead donated money to her campaign or volunteered, then he or she can complain (although if you are putting all that work in i would hope you voted lol). "Don't vote and force your ideals and opinions on others." I would disagree as a former Voluntaryist. I can explain why if you would like. |
I don't get this, what exactly are you arguing for? All you did was compare a genocide approving dictator to Trump. Your title doesn't even make sense. (You didn't even fit Clinton into this...)
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Either way, I am interested as to why you still believe in the political process, so I would like it if you elaborate. |
The idea that losing invalidates Clinton-voters right to complain, just because they participated in the vote to begin with, is just downright wrong. Like, I fully get why you might feel that way since you're an anarchist, but since when does losing mean you can't continue to point out the victor's flaws? If you win the election but precede to be a terrible president, people still have every right to call you out on it. It's the same way that if your football team wins, your coach can still give you hell for a bad play you made.
Also, as a pro-democracy point, Trump only won because of the extremely undemocratic electoral college system. That's digressing a bit though. |
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I believe in the political process because government and private property both spawn for similar reasons. Government provides a need (at least when it began). Private property fulfills needs. Both entities are intersubjectively verifiable and rely on force to defend regardless if one consents or not. I understand that private property and government are antithetical (to an extent- government can defend property rights by taking small freedoms away for larger freedoms); however, they are undeniably similar. Let me give you an example: If I was born in my parent's apartment, do I not consent to the landlord's rules as I grow up in said apartment? According to you, yes. Same with government. By being born within government's territory you consent to its laws. If you disagree, you move, like an apartment. And before you say "but it costs a lot to move to a different country." Well, it costs a lot to move as well. Time off work must be taken, you have to actually move your stuff, etc. To argue the "cost" point would also be self-contradictory because as a Voluntaryist, you believe in negative liberty over positive liberty. By arguing the "cost" point you are clearly in the territory of positive liberty. In short, by being born in a democratic country, you consent to the political process and election results. In general of course- we could work out details with dictators and such (I think we would both agree that dictators are non-consensual). I will ignore the rest because it seems like Gimmepie and others are already debating the other points. |
So you think Democracy is not real or?
It seems like you're an anarchist? |
Arm chair anarchists are the worst. "Dont vote!!!" yeah, that'll stop the system! Let's all us on the multiple levels of the Left not vote, I'm sure that'll stop Fascists and Oligarchs dead in the tracks! If we all don't vote then that means that the right wing wont vote either!!! Oh, they will? And there'll be no pressure to limit their reach? Oh no
But hey, at least in your eyes we'd be allowed to complain on a Pokemon forum then won't we? That'll show 'em!! Disclaimer: Couldn't vote (not US citizen) and even if I could I'd of never voted Clinton, but what you're saying is asinine. |
What would not voting accomplish except to give the people who do vote more say in who is elected?
Like, I get that (especially in America) the voting system has inherent flaws, and the democracies in general are not 100% perfect, but that doesn't mean that it's better to abstain altogether. I mean, if I were a candidate myself and had the kind of influence and reach that a major candidate has then my refusal to participate might have a lot more meaning, might instigate something to change the system, but when half or more of eligible people don't bother to vote in the first place my single drop in the bucket isn't going to be noticed. It'll only give people who do vote more influence. |
If you don't vote, some think you have no right to complain. The truth is everyone has a right to complain no matter who you voted for. So people who voted for Hillary can complain about Trump.
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Insane Troll Logic at its finest.
Keep in mind that people who voted for Clinton wanted to prevent exactly what's listed. We can complain all we want. Not because of who we voted for, but because it's granted in the Constitution. therefore, as someone who couldn't make it to the polls by any means, I can talk sh*t over the results any way I want. And I'll do that in a way that makes sense, thank you very much. Taro, out. |
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I'm not gonna get into the content of this thread, cause I see red flags all over that just make me shake my head.
Only going to post to remind everyone to be civil! No calling anyone names, accusing anyone of anything, etc. Be mature. Thanks! |
Do people who didn't vote for Clinton have the right to complain about Trump? If they don't, then nobody has the right to complain about Trump, which is absurd. If they do, then people who did nothing would have the right to complain while the people who did something wouldn't, which is also absurd. Usually, the right to complain about something is earned with a degree of investment in that something.
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In short, if you vote, you're a hypocrite if you complain about the results because you knew that the results you don't like were a possibility when you participated in the process. If you don't like the process, the solution isn't to participate in it, the solution is to reject it. Quote:
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I see, but what you are saying makes no sense to me. I think that you voted does give you the right to complain, because you tried to not make Trump the president.
I'm Canadian, so what I know about American politics is not much xD But that's just my view, I voted for Trudeau in my election and he won so... |
Ah yes, Voluntaryism. A charming and ineffective philosophy that gives people an excuse to be needlessly selfish, apathetic, and do nothing while claiming moral superiority. The main problem I have with voluntaryism is that it doesn't encourage people to get together to solve problems; instead it encourages nothing more than a culture of "not my problem" and "why should I?"
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I think anyone has a right to complain about anyone, regardless of who they voted for. If they voted for Clinton, they should still have a right to complain about Trump. Even if they did vote for Trump, they should still have a right to complain about him as well.
We have freedom of speech. It's a basic right and an amendment. You can't stop people from complaining, no matter how much you want to. People have the right to complain about whoever they want to. |
When you vote you legitimize the authority of the office of President, not the person who takes up that office. When the person who takes up the office starts abusing the authority of that office, you have the right to complain because that person is abusing the authority of the position you legitimated by voting. By your logic, if you hire a person to do a job and if they turn out to be barely qualified and can't do the job competently, then you have no right to complain because by participating in the process of hiring you legitimize their authority to have that job.
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By the way, it is completely within their rights to keep everything they earn, because it is theirs. If you believe you have the right to take someone's earned wealth because you feel it will go to a better cause, it's still unjustified theft. The money isn't yours, and you have no claim to it, even if you call it "taxation". It's still theft. If you want to donate to some charity, great. Use your own money you earned. Quote:
In other words, people can more freely and efficiently organize to solve problems without "government" because "government" won't get in the way with all it's pointless bureaucracy. Quote:
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The process of choosing someone to hold public office is different, because the political process gives that person the right to carry out his or her duties as he or she sees fit, as long as they are within the authority granted to that person, even if you personally don't like what that politician is doing. For example, if you don't like some laws your "elected representatives" pass, you can't just say "you're fired". According to the political process, they have the right to pass that law as long as it doesn't break some other law, and the best option you have is possibly replacing them come next election, which isn't a guarantee either. In short, your analogy of not being able to fire someone because you participated in the process aligns more with the political process, not privately hiring someone. |
The problem, Philosophizer, is that you're assuming that the majority of humans aren't seeking some semblance of order and social structure. Most people are seeking order (and need it), for reasons I go into in my next paragraph here:
People tend to be really shitty to other people if there are no rules of engagement for day to day interactions, and social structures were constructed to essentially counter this. Can't have people murdering anyone they want with no repercussions, after all, because what if it's YOU who's getting murdered? Also, you've worked hard to have the things you have, so you want some rules to protect what is yours. If you try to protect your stuff or yourself on your own, no one who wants your property or wants you dead is going to feel intimidated by you. Unfortunately, despite what I'd like to hope would be the case, in order to follow even the most basic rules of human decency (like don't kill, steal, or rape), most people would need there to be an authority out there with enough power to enforce those rules, because the typical person's impulse control isn't as great as we'd like to think. |
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Well, in short, I'm not an anarchist. |
The best way to fight the vote for Trump was to cast your vote strategically against him. Clinton voters have every right to complain about Trump because they contributed to the electoral process. Your worldview is misguided.
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