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Feminism is (or should be) campaigning for gender equality and working to bring down the patriarchy. And bringing down the patriarchy should mean making the world an equal place for all genders, not placing women on top. I am a feminist, but I definitely don't hate men, as the stereotype seems to be. And, yes, there are probably a lot of women like that, but that's not was feminism is. Anyone who thinks that really needs to go and read Holly Bourne. And if you don't, read her books anyway. They show feminism pretty accurately.
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If me and someone else are lifting a box and I wanted to drop it, I'll check with them to see if it's okay. They say give me consent to drop the box and I drop it. Turns out they hadn't moved their foot and perhaps I didn't double check because I figured when theybsaidbyes, they would've made sure to move it. Also, all I've been saying is that the fault lies in both parties. I don't think I ever said the woman should be punished. |
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No you're right, you didn't say the woman should be punished, you said education should fall on both parties. That is what I am addressing in the next paragraph. The bit you quoted is not my entire point, it is the basis of my entire point, as you can see in the subsequent seemingly unread parts I've quoted below Quote:
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I think we came to an agreement when you stated that the blame should go to both parties and that both sides should be more educated. I'll end this here, seeing as we've begun to say the same thing back and forth. Quote:
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But not gonna lie, we are both kinda ruining a thread here, I am indeed going to drop it now. I'm sure you'll survive : ) ) ) |
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I've just been observing since I made my points and left out of disinterest, but I might as well as point out that both of you have been saying stuff and that both of you are interpreting each other differently. In any case, I have to say that about 2 comments in, perhaps the idea of "clarification by questions" would have clicked or something. Okay so turning off my annoyance. You both mean well and I think I get the brunt of your arguments. However, amid that I can say that both of you misunderstood to the point that is seems like you both were taking each other out of context. Do whatever you will after this, but I thought it fine to point out that explaining your points can only go so far and sometimes you need to other person to ask questions/tell what they hear. and no, it isn't only on the speaker but the listener too. Both of yo- no everyone in this entire thread should practice reading a comment more than thrice to ensure they get the message. If there are parts that are unclear/don't make sense, then clarification may be needed and that's done by asking. And let me point out that I'm against peeps having condescending attitudes towards their fellow speakers. (If you bring up my thing from earlier, I apologized that wasn't the intention and that if I did I apologize for) I think you both bring up good arguments, but that's only after I read this thread like "Five times" to try and make sure I understood what you both were saying. Overall, it's fine, but please can we all stop treating miscommunication as the other person "Not getting it cause they can't think" or "are illogical and/or simple minded" instead of I dunno, actually trying to make sure we're on the same page. Pardon the rant, I wish you both and everyone in this thread well. |
Alright, so I fall into the situation where people would call me an extreme feminist, SJW, 'third-wave' (using it as a derogatory term instead of its actual definition), whatever.
It's honestly really disappointing looking at this thread and the misconceptions of modern feminism, and also a bit funny considering people seem to like the 'older' feminists, which is really weird considering second-wave is where a lot of the actual man-hating feminists and TERFs fall into. No shit we support the equality of both sexes. Along with the recognition of minority women, trans women and non-binary people. There's a reason third-wave is known as intersectional feminism. Personally, I have no problem with men, as I am a guy myself, and pretty much every feminist I've talked to on Leftbook and the meta+left circle of reddit is the same. The reason discussion tends to focus on women is because there is still a shitton of imbalance between men and women. The Hollywood rape accusations that have come out in full force in the past 6 months or so is a good indication of that. Men in positions of power are protected by other influential men. It's as simple as that. Women are threatened that they'll be kept out of the industry if they don't have sex with them, have their life ruined, whatever. This isn't new, and happens everywhere on smaller scales. That's just one example. My point is, legal rights don't mean shit when it comes to the culture of a society, and pretty much all of the world is still heavily dominated by wealthy men. That's why I'm a feminist. Not because I want to see all men castrated, toothbrushes seized, white genocide, whatever like a lot of reactionaries like to delude themselves into believing. |
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Like, I hate to have to drive this, but where's the measures of this. How many women do go into the field and is it an increase? It's not so simple as 1 reason why this would be a thing, so I honestly find it kinda generalistic to say that for "Women" to be out of the "Industry". Quote:
I mean, yeah I could believe a lot of bad men are at the top, but the idea of there being more men up there isn't inherently bad likewise if more women were up there. Frankly, that's also saying that it requires cultural change when if you're talking about suites being in control would mainly focus on that higher class (if not a select few of them). My point is that what they say does have merit to a degree, however I think both sides are overblowing the issue and honestly it hurts both of the sides credibility. I don't believe the feminazis are a true face of feminism (hell, I just get a laugh out of them), but at the same time, I can't really say I'd be a feminist. I agree in equality of the sexes, I just disagree with a bit of their agenda and ways of solving the issues that we still need to determine are at what level if even the right issues. |
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Feminism at its core is about equality. Speaking generally, if you're not a feminist, you're not against women, but you are definitely for upkeeping the current standard. Or else, you have your definitions all wrong. Logically you should have the same feelings about LGBT movements or BLM movements, since they put their focus on a particular group. Why doesn't feminism fit in here? It's the same principle. Seems to me like you just want to avoid being grouped in with the negative idea people have of feminists. |
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Regarding LGBT and BLM, understand not everyone agrees with movements in general. I disagree with a bit of what both do, does that mean I'm against their freedoms, no. I think there's a fine line between association and advocacy. I'm fine with them all bringing their own problems to the table, however I have an issue with the current movements status for my own disagreements with them. |
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I probably shouldn't have started with "my issue with this" when i had multiple issues with it is having issues with a movement's actions and excusing yourself from being part of said movement even if you share those views, and as such are inherently a part of the movement is that attributing the actions of a few in what amounts to an organisation with no power structure or prevailing singular policy/set of actions and damning everyone who prescribes to that ideology because of it (even if it's in that lame implicit way that's like "i don't agree with what feminists do but i agree with feminism") is absolutely useless in every respect. "I don't agree with some guy who said he was part of blm doing a bad thing so i don't agree with blm as a whole, but i agree with their core ideology of 'Hey Maybe We Shouldn't Murder People'" doesn't say anything at all beyond that you attribute the actions of someone/multiple someones who have an ideology with the actions of everyone who shares that ideology. The vagueness of your disagreements (despite it actually being useful to air those in this discussion) aside, Feminism does own the concept of equality of the sexes because that's literally the ideology at play, and while BLM might actually not own the concept of "hey police brutality is bad and a problem" disagreeing with what some people who agree with BLM do in service of that concept isn't "having issues with" BLM, it's just perceiving BLM to be a hivemind that acts in unison rather than an umbrella label for people who agree with the core ideology |
I like the idea of woman (and all people, really) having equal rights and am a strong fan of 'girl power'.
I really dislike feminists who take their point too far, though. Like, the ones that act like girly girls don't belong in this world. I'm a girly girl, myself, so it anger's me when people are against who I am. I'm not weak! I even stood up for other people like me on another forum with a friend today, and it was a forum i've always been afraid of getting in trouble on. This show's I can be a very brave, and strong person. Feminists who would think otherwise of me are in the wrong. I don't know if I count as 'feminist' or not. I don't really quite understand what the term means. I have nothing against males, though. I have male friends who I see as some of the easiest people ever to talk to. I don't get all scared talking about my childhood, for one, with males unlike with females. Because I don't care as much if they didn't grow up 'girly' as much. And, in my book, females should feel EMPOWERED by liking 'feminine' and 'girly' things. If those things are refered to as those terms, there's a good reason, not a bad one. |
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I want to make one thing clear. I'm not against the groups, nor do I have the single headed mindset that they have hiveminds. It all comes down to my concern for the "owning the ideology" in your argument. My views on the stuff and all are irrelevant to this discussion. I don't have to list them all, since regardless I'm a human being that makes decisions on his opinion and ideals. Feminism is a movement of peeps that are more outspoken on the issues regarding "equality of the sexes" and until you can prove that it is the ideology rather than just a group of activists basing their actions on that ideal, I can't really give you ground there. Course, even if that was the case there's the issue on the level of "what is equality in our day and age?" which would be an interesting discussion on the matter. Quote:
I think it's a good question to ask "what is a feminist?" since that's an important question to answer "me and Aliencommander have different perspectives after all". I'd like to say that feminism isn't supposed to be against males. If it's about equality of the sexes from raising women up, it shouldn't be used as a means to "tear men down" in the process, "some things I notice in some of their activist" Well, women can like whatever they like and all. I do see there is a psychological difference between male and female that needs to be kept in the equation. Men and Women behave and do things differently. Sure they're exceptions, but those aren't the rule. I do think there's Masculine and Feminine behavior that exists and both sexes can have a collection of those traits. Men tend to have more masculine than feminine traits and vise versa. There are exceptions, but they don't constitute the rule. I do agree that femininity is an important thing in our society and isn't a tool to keep women down. And Masculinity has its own fair share of weak traits. Males and Females can like what they like and act how they act and it doesn't mean they aren't male or female or more male if they're more manly. It just means they're a specific type of male and likewise for females. There's nothing wrong that. |
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There is a Chinese poem that shows how the logic goes, with someone advocating that white horses are, in fact, not horses, even though brown and yellow horses are. You should definitely give that a read. Also, the dictionary is written by human beings and is not an irrefutable source of truth on anything. Quote:
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Also implied; https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/75/Definist-Fallacy and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence Feminism by definition alone =/= equality or egalitarian, simply on the principle that they're only pushing for one genders rights and ignoring others which is rather self serving. https://lastedenblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/11/why-the-dictionary-definition-of-feminism-fails/, https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_dictionarium#Feminism explain it better. Quote:
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https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/106/Hypothesis-Contrary-to-Fact There is btw called MRA etc and they dont have anywhere near the exposure of feminist groups get and have been demonized (by feminists, shock) when they campaigned for things like male suicide rates, unfair family courts and the like. Even then there is still the same issues within it as with any other ideology as i mentioned above. Quote:
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Most of these groups have similar issues actually and have very toxic sub groups/people within them that self identify as such, (more so in BLM) (see: demonizing white cis people or killing cops and can be very dogmatic etc). I think user gimmepie sums it up perfectly with this response and words it better than myself; Quote:
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You shouldn't phrase it like that, 'bringing down the patriarch'. That is the aspect of rampant feminism I dislike, that "We need to topple down the men"; that goes against what you are actually saying about how you feel. But that terminology is more than just that to some extremists who really feel anti-men; ironically being sexist in their fight against sexism. Someone else posted more rights for others doesn't mean LESS for others. I agree with what you wrote, but I hate that phrasing more than anything. |
As a female, I wouldn't call myself a Feminist, however, I fully support women's rights and I truly believe in the strength that women possess. I disagree with Western Feminism. Feminists nowadays complain about the most irrelevant issues, and attack and degrade men which is extremely hypocritical. Feminism is supposed to be female empowerment, not male belittlement. Moreover, feminism has become incredibly political and it seems to cater to a certain type of woman. If you don't fit that mold then you will often be ostracized by callous, hardcore feminists. REAL Feminists should concern themselves with issues such as women's education, sexual harassment, and the rights of women in countries where women are treated as second class citizens and face discrimination. However, things such as "mansplaining" aren't real problems, and feminists who whine about these make-believe issues are giving feminism a bad rap. It saddens me that so many women lose sight of what's really important. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. Period.
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https://youtu.be/k-AHLibO2rQ
Speaking of the patriarchy, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. |
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I think with the advent of media as we have it it's really easy to just find the worst exams of any particular group and have it broadcast to the world. I think this is what's happened with feminism. It's gotten a bad rap, which I don't think it (entirely) deserves. Christina Hoff Sommers for example is exceptional at the self assessment of her own movement.
However there are some things I think are not just needed but necessary in order not just to help feminism but all identity based groups.
Sorry if I was vague there but in my opinion this discussion is ultimately about a wider issue that hasn't just been hurting feminism, but many others too. |
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Both genders deserve equal treatment, but I only accept it if it doesn't come at the cost of one gender. That is why I now have grudges against greedy companies that think toxic feminism is a quick cash-grab... Mattel, Disney and Marvel Comics have all fallen to it, and becoming more anti-consumer just because they want to join in the male-belittling club. It's also why I despise the Me Too movement, because it only exists just to bring male-belittling in the spotlight. |
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