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How much more can America stomach?
For those that have been keeping up with the concentration camp news, and the recent dismissal of the Eric Garner case + the imprisonment of the man who filmed his murder taking place, with the developing story of the Send Her Back rallying chant not dissimilar to scenes from Nuremberg, how much more can be tolerated? How much more can be stomached?
I’m not bothering with objectivity in these examples, because I honestly do not give a shit about cotton-wrapping the inherent horror in these events for the sake of precious decorum. I just ask that you do not yell at each other, and that anyone with queries about post content come talk to erik destler or myself. You can be passionate, but just be cautious about whether it fits on PC. |
It all depends on how it affects the individual person, the Eric Garner case while a miscarriage of justice won't really be noticed in all the noise outside of those that are actively following it.
The "Concentration Camps", well we can disagree on the use of that word to describe those buildings, but I would say the attack on them and the recent raising of the Mexican flag on their property does more damage than helps. Even the use of the word "Concentration Camps" to describe them probably sends most people into eye rolls. As for the "Send her back" chants, while wrong, I am interested to see how it plays out, the "Squad" has said some pretty outrageous things, that the GOP has now made a campaign video of, and her sponsoring a BDS vote certainly will not help her in the eyes of the American public. Anyway to answer your question, Americans are quite resilient when it comes to the outrageous outrage of politics, and usually pretty quick to forget and move on. What may seem shocking and anger educing to you or I will be forgotten by this time next year. |
These days it is very hard to keep up with what is going on, and I tend to get disgusted by what I read now in the news (anything involving the "Squad" is of particular disgust to me). But the one that got my attention the most is the planned raids on Area 51. Why are people even considering this, even if the idea itself is a joke? Even if most people tell it as a joke, there are others out there that may very well attempt to do it...it is human nature after all to be curious, and perhaps be stubborn. If this raid really happens, there's going to be a line crossed between protecting secrets and protecting lives, and which one could cause more harm to the country if lost? Imagine if other countries happened to get information from whatever testing is being done at Area 51...
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This is all going to continue to go on for a lot longer than anyone would like really
Some of us are tired of this shit. Been tired for years. Been getting more tired. But unfortunately, we don't really have the power to do anything about it--which just makes us even more tired. For every person who wants to see these things stop, there's another one who thinks these sorts of things are ok. Country's too divided for any positive change to come anytime soon, if ever |
They very much so are concentration camps. The ICE is the new Gestapo. It's really sickening, any American citizen, hell, any world citizen with any knowledge of basic history can tell you this is the beginning of something awful. I hope it all goes down in flames honestly. If people are too daft / unobservant / ignorant to observe the pattern of Nazi camps repeating itself, then that's their loss.
I don't know how much more the American people can take. The lower and middle classes are too busy being droned to death with work, barely enough time to go out and vote, let alone research their political candidates. Imagine how little time there is for us struggling to make it in a world that highly favors the one percent for anyone to organize social action. It's truly awful. If we can't get it done, other countries probably will try to speak out against what's becoming a very obvious racist regime. Ellis Island eventually started turning away Jewish folks, look what our borders are doing now, turning away brown refugees. There are many other comparisons to make, but this is just one recent one. So many undeniable and scary parallels. Brushing this issue off and saying that it's no big deal is ignorant IMO. |
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Those that are being turned away, do they not have a safe country that has offered them protection? Do they face murder by their government if they return home? If you want to throw out the Nazi imagery I am interested where you get the comparisons. And to tie further back into the topic, why do you think the vast majority of Americans disagree with that opinion? |
Judging by recent outcry on social media, I don't think that the average American can take this madness any longer. Can't do much until 2020, however beyond voicing our displeasure with events and hoping for something to change, even if it's small.
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I admit nothing Trump does affects me personally, although his constant dominance of the news with his inane tweets gives me a headache.
And as someone who has supported civil rights my entire life, I recognize bigotry and human rights violation when I see it. Trump is the bigot committing the violations, NOT the "Squad". |
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I get these comparisons from the fact that JEWISH PEOPLE, who have survived the Holocaust, have come up and said that we're approaching a dangerous level of racism once again. If we don't listen to the survivors telling us the signs are all here, then who do we listen to? I'd really love to know. "The vast majority of Americans disagree," Okay, sure, show me the polling, the research paper, the evidence. Just don't throw a Stormer article at me, or some crud from a right wing reddit lmao. |
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She should know. At 13, she was in Auschwitz. She came face to face with the notorious Josef Mengele and saw the smoke from the chimneys as the sky darkened with ash of fellow Jews burned in ovens. She escaped with the help of Oskar Schindler, whose story was told in the Steven Spielberg film “Schindler’s List.”" The U.S. Holocaust Museum issued a statement this week saying it “unequivocally rejects efforts to create analogies between the Holocaust and other events, whether historical or contemporary.” https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-concentration-camps-holocaust-immigrants-detention-20190628-story.html Quote:
https://www.businessinsider.com/quarter-of-americans-think-detention-centers-are-concentration-camps-2019-7 |
Arguing over semantics is one reason why the debate is remaining a debate and not a call of order to ending the atrocities - I believe they are concentration camps in name, purpose and intent, but for those who don’t, doesn’t the possibility of your beliefs being likened to ‘putting people in concentration camps’ summon an urge deep in your heart to try put an end to this process? Regardless of semantics, it’s still happening. It’s all still going on, no matter what you call it. So long as people keep the cyclical discussion of ‘BUT ARE THEY REALLY ‘CAMPS?’ going round and round in the media, people will be too busy debating the banality of evil, and no criticism will be applied beyond semantics and subsequently there will be no political capital expended on ending these events.
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https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/may/8/87-immigrant-families-are-no-shows-hearings/ |
Yeah, shockingly, people that are aware of the ghetto-level conditions that await them are going to be inclined towards risking going it on their own than the possibility of being locked away in an area where there is a serious debate about to what degree they aesthetically and legally resemble concentration camps. I don’t blame them at all.
I don’t pretend to know the golden policy that will solve this issue - but I am aware of the Golden Rule, and I’m pretty sure that intentionally making the process of seeking asylum as inhumane as possible to justify the state treatment of brown people does not follow that rule. I would start with facing the reality that decades of destabilisation of the surrounding nations is going to have the consequence of those people flocking towards the only geographically feasible stable power in that region, and pulling money away from a disastrous wall and into humane vetting and residency procedure policies. I would also give up the ghost that ICE are anything more than secret police, and redirect its funding towards humane settling of migrants and helping them contribute to the economy they so desperately want to be a part of. It’ll be slow, but it won’t be torturing the fucking people. Edit: fwiw I am aware I broke my rule of calmness so I will take that into consideration |
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However a significant if not vast majority of people coming are not doing so out of fear, but for economic reasons, thus making their asylum claim frivolous. Edit: If you need evidence of this look no further than this article from yesterday showing many returning home after finding out they would not be allowed into the US while their asylum claim was processed and instead would be waiting in Mexico. https://www.texastribune.org/2019/07/26/migrants-giving-asylum-after-trump-policies-slow-them-down/ |
It seems like this has been growing and growing, slowly enough that parts of the American population now accepts this as normal political measures. Much of the rest of the world has not yet normalized these kind of rhetorics, thankfully, and as such are able to criticize what's going on.
So I fear that the US can take a lot more and even worse developments than this, as they've been lulled into thinking it is humanely acceptable. It's scary. History is repeating itself. |
ALT, why are you defending a policy that involves jailing children? Just answer me that, okay?
IMOHO, this act is an unthinkable atrocity that is NEVER justified or excusable, no matter what the reasoning is. "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matthew 19:14 |
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I'm curious where I should read more about this, the detention camps in particular. What are some good sources for finding as impartial yet reasonable information as possible on this?
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Something like 30% of the people tested had zero relation to the children in their care. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/dna-tests-reveal-30-of-suspected-fraudulent-migrant-families-were-unrelated |
And the other 70% of the suspected cases?
That would mean more than 70,000 detained children belong to innocent families, WHY do you tolerate such a atrocity? WHY do you feel it is EVER justified to detain children? Just ANSWER me, LDS! WHY is money so important to you that you are willing to support a Nazi who approves hurting thousands of children?? And as for your question, ALT, what we had before Trump manufactured his phony crisis was working just fine. You guys just don't understand, when Trump makes claims of invasion by Mexico of rapists and traffickers, WE DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. Just like we don't believe his phony-baloney claims of voter fraud and Birtherism. What he is doing is inhuman. Now answer my question please, WHY do you support this monstrosity who is jailing children? |
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47736603 So how is this phony or not a crisis? Quote:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=iZNBDBRHdwc And his psychotic sycophants went wild. Quote:
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Remain civil at all times. Personal attacks during debates are not acceptable. Discussions should be earnest in nature and not misrepresent views or be a platform for toxicity. In other words, we do not tolerate toxic behavior or debating in "bad faith". This is a warning. Stay civil, don't make things personal, or you will not be allowed to post further in this thread. |
I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.
IMOHO, some things are universally wrong, and folks who think they can convince me that those things are acceptable, well, it's hard to debate such people. I'll ask this to anyone here: What if it was YOUR child? Just consider that. |
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I don't think anyone here is condoning child abuse, and I think everyone realizes that these facilities are overwhelmed and breaking, it's a crisis and the Government needs to react accordingly to stem the flood, provide better facilities, and expedite the process. |
How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually? Are they too many, or unable to work, or are there other organizational hindrances to that?
(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school) |
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What's your opinion of THAT? |
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There is a money aspect, in that American schools are already hurting, and taking in millions upon millions of more children would force more kids in already packed class rooms, force teachers to deal with a myriad of different languages while teaching, and take away valuable time from the other kids. There is the jobs aspect, in that any economy can only hold a certain number of people at one time, especially in low paying jobs. Any country that takes in millions upon millions of economic migrants will soon find the labor market for those jobs filled. Which brings me to the final aspect, social services. To properly care for the people the Government would have to provide trillions in social services in terms of housing, food, medical care, and education, that will take money away from other services and eventually lead to resentfulness among the populous. The US tries to be welcoming and it tries to take in a large amount of people each year, but allowing a flood through would overwhelm the system, pose security problems, and eventually probably lead to ethno nationalist groups that will seek to drive out the refugees. Quote:
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Edit: Alt said it better. |
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https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Sep/CBP%20TEDS%20Policy%20Oct2015.pdf https://www.ice.gov/detention-management https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-apps-sector-area-fy2018.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-uacs-sector-fy2010-fy2018.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-family-units-sector-fy13-fy18.pdf It's a lot to read (the first one is 31 pages lol), and I've hardly looked at the first two links at all myself, but I figure that this stuff is likely a little better than random-ass news articles....hopefully, anyway. |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdUIXvwuwto&list=PLDpZdP4i5RSDpW87ZzZlquEpTF7Sz1FST&index=6&t=0s |
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A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"? People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life. The numbers get high enough that the civilization can't keep up and it is eventually destroyed. |
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9: The wall could become a tourist attraction, which has no relevance here. 8 The wall could go way over budget, fair point, but we are already going over budget just trying to build and maintain new holding facilities. 7: It would only stop half of the illegals. Fair point, and we could get into the numbers, however in terms of health and safety aspect at least those who cross through airports are properly vetted and screened for diseases. 6: The wall causes environmental change: Not really relevant to the discussion, and one could argue all the garbage dumped by people crossing in these habitats does far more damage. 5: The wall makes the smugglers rich: Not relevant to the discussion, but the smugglers are already getting rich, just getting a person to the US Mexico border costs around $4,000. 4: Illegal Aliens Build the Wall: Again not relevant 3: The wall helps the Mexican economy: Good for them? 2: Mexico doesn't pay for the wall: Again not relevant, but there are ways to make Mexico pay for the wall from placing taxes on remittance to using seized drug money. 1: The wall never gets finished: This is just arguing the wall won't get finished in four years and has no relevance to the discussion. |
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You live in a place with no electricity, and no running water. The water you have is the same water animals use as a toilet. Your children are uneducated, malnourished, and sick. You make around 10 cents an hour for a job you know you can do in America for $7.50 an hour. Is a wall - or even a long stretch of desert - going to stop you? And as for your claim that "they're criminals, they deserve it"? First of all, the crime they commit is trespassing. I was arrested for trespassing 10 years ago. I got a desk appearance ticket (didn't have to pay bail) showed up in court with about 50 other folks who had been given similar citations, signed a no contest form and did 50 hours of community service. It wasn't even added to my record. What is happening to them now seems disproportionate. Plus, they are children, which means "below age of consent" and not liable for such things. Children below age of consent can't be held legally responsible for what their parents do. And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you. |
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Officials have grown concerned after men from 'Central America or Haiti' were seen approaching mothers - especially those deemed vulnerable - at the Iglesia Evangelica Embajadores de Jesus shelter in Tijuana offering them $350 to purchase a child to cross into the U.S." https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7201581/Groups-willing-pay-350-children-cross-U-S-border-family.html Some migrants in Tijuana are trying to purchase children from vulnerable single mothers in local shelters so they can more easily cross into the United States, according to shelter directors, migrants and Tijuana law enforcement authorities. Migrants in Tijuana shelters said they are alarmed after reports of single mothers being approached by groups of men who have offered to buy children to improve their chances of safely crossing into the United States. A decades-old legal document, known as the Flores agreement, says migrant children should only be held briefly in U.S. border custody, which often means they are released, along with the parent or guardian with whom they crossed while they wait for their asylum cases to make their way through clogged immigration courts. Typically, when migrants are apprehended at the border with their children they are held in custody for a few days before they are released. Single adults who cross the border can face months in detention. https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/authorities-investigate-reports-of-migrants-trying-to-buy-children-to-enter-the-u-s/ In villages such as Chanmagua, where years of depressed coffee prices have pushed families to the breaking point, young children and teenagers are seen as boarding passes to the flight for economic survival. Their absence is evident on soccer teams with too few players and coffee farms with thinner staffs at harvest time. Just this year, 100 adults and children have left, including 17 from the town’s only kindergarten class, local officials said. Within this exodus, a small number of cases have particularly troubled the town. Some parents have given up their children to other adults — sometimes for cash — to help the adult enter the United States, according to town officials, charity workers and residents. These transactions sometimes involve a minor traveling with a relative or godparent; in other cases, they say, the adult has no relation to the child. Such arrangements are referred to, euphemistically, as “adoptions.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-central-americans-children-open-a-path-to-the-us--and-bring-a-discount/2018/11/19/baf3b092-e6ce-11e8-bbdb-72fdbf9d4fed_story.html?utm_term=.1187ec463b61 |
Again, why punish the children for this? Don't your claims make them more the victims of a crime than criminals?
You can quote statistics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to defend something that is cruel and inhumane. Also, you claimed we need the wall, I explained why it's not a feasible goal, I think ALL my points are VERY relevant, since they prove it's an unobtainable fantasy. |
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And I'm not aware of saying that claim. Quote:
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https://nypost.com/2019/07/01/trump-signs-bill-granting-4-6b-in-emergency-funds-for-us-border/ The Trump Administration has also been trying to set up a Safe Third Country relationship with countries south of the US border to stem the flow, he got the Mexican army to provide greater enforcement of their own southern border, and has kept the "Remain in Mexico" deal which helps deter migrants who are only trying to get into America for economic reasons. There is also a bill in the House that would make DNA testing required for all migrants, with anyone trying to scam the system subject to ten years in prison. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gop-congressman-introduces-bill-to-test-migrants-dna-at-border-as-officials-warn-of-child-recycling |
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Diversity is what has always made America strong, LDS. What does it say on the Statue of Liberty's plaque. Quote:
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I have to go to work now, so I'll end with this: We are not on the same page, ALT. You keep giving me statistics and laws to justify something I find morally and ethically wrong. Just because an authority figure CAN do something doesn't mean he SHOULD. The terms "unlawful" and "evil" are two very different things. Trump's policies are usually within the laws of the country, but IMOHO, directly oppose the laws of God. |
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I hope you have a good day at work, and I am interested to see what plan you would present to deal with the current crisis. |
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I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.
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Edit: Oh shit double post, my bad. |
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They are unarguably concentration camps. The fact American citizens have ended up in them because they look foreign should speak volumes about what their intended purpose is. https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp |
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https://heavy.com/news/2019/07/francisco-erwin-galicia/ Quote:
Well lets look at this, they are not members of a national or minority group, they are not being confined for state security, exploitation, or punishment unless you believe being confined for immigration processing is a state security reason, which I would then ask why are they being let out after their case is processed? Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Again not being placed in on the basis of a particular ethnic or political group, and they are allowed the opportunity to plead their case for asylum in front of a judge. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons. The last one, being a detention center for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons would most likely fit the descriptions of these camps. So your link proves they are not concentration camps! |
Tbh the semantics aren’t important. Whatever we call them, the important thing is that under no circumstances are the conditions at the border acceptable, and it’s not good that the president and his administration think that they are doing a good job.
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Only they are strictly for minority groups lol. How many white Brits who overstayed their visas are in the camps? How many Canadian kids have gone missing or died in the camps? It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it. The Govt has consistently referred to the caravans or migrants themselves as a risk to national security (the wall is entirely based on this) and they are targeting people exclusively based on their ethnic appearance. There's literally no reasonable denying it. It also doesn't matter what his mother's status was or if she made an admin error, he had an American birth certificate, SSN and his lawyer provided every other document they asked for and he was still held for three weeks in squalid conditions, denied access to a phone call, denied access to sanitary facilities (this would actually be a war crime if it happened to a prisoner of war) and was underfed. The fact you defend this is honestly worrying. I'm glad you glossed over the conditions though. Those camps are not fit for humans. At all. Kids sleeping on cold concrete, overcrowded cells, masked guards, physical cages. These camps make the British concentration camps of the Boer war look tolerable. |
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https://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5 Now letting the caravans in with out properly documenting each person, making sure they do not have a criminal history, making sure they are not carrying diseases is a national security risk. However that is not what is happening here is it? They are putting people in these camps, and then slowly releasing them. So again I ask, if they pose such a national security risk by letting them out at all, why are they going through the process of allowing them to apply for asylum? As for targeting people based on ethnic appearance, do you mind providing an example, as I already shot one down. Quote:
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Canadians are the biggest offenders for overstaying visa and a noted number of French and Brits routinely overstay visas as well. Yet ICE isn't stopping busses of white people to make sure none of those pesky red coats are hiding on them. Also, you cannot illegally cross a border and apply for asylum. If you are applying for asylum you are following international law and therefore your crossing of the border was legal. You would only be illegally entering the country if you failed to seek asylum and successfully entered the country off the grid. Quote:
That's a logical fallacy. The camps existing before Trump is completely irrelevant. It was wrong then, absolutely, but he has rapidly increased the scope of it. https://cmsny.org/trumps-executive-orders-immigration-refugees/ https://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/trump-ice/565772/ https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/22/warning-new-show-me-your-papers-era-rights-advocates-vow-fight-unlawful-trump-plan https://globalnews.ca/news/4284138/separation-children-parents-us-border-permanent/ Of course, not that it matters who started it, the US has always been institutionally racist, whether it was Obama's ICE caging US citizens for years or Trump's ICE "losing" over 3,000 children. Quote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-army-soldiers-migrant-detention-camp-donna-texas-a9023591.html so much so that the US army are now manning some of the camps. An army branch of a far right govt manning camps comprised entirely of minority groups. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think this happened before somewhere a few times. Tricky, it's almost like there's a repeat going on of...well.....geez...British/German/Japanese/French/Spanish/American concentration camps of olde! Quote:
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uh yeah, there were over 300,000 (that's more than Mexicans who attempted to enter the country illegally) white foreigners who overstayed their visas since Trump came into office (and we will see it increase again for 2018) and yet not a single one of them has ended up in the camps and ICE are not out there demanding to see the papers and birth certificates of whites on the street, in busses, at work etc on the off chance they're an illegal brit or canadian. Quote:
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https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost they've already got plenty of money going in and still they're making kids eat frozen meals and refusing to let them wash. They've got the man power, it's walking around with guns. Quote:
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Yes it was. They aren't stop searching every car of whites they see, they are doing it to every car of "Hispanic looking people" they see. Quote:
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If these camps are part of US policy before Trump became President, to deal with a massive wave of migrants, then how can these camps be politically motivated by Trump? Quote:
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Mind you Francisco Erwin Galicia was stopped at a border patrol check point in Falfurrias, Texas, not far from the Mexican border, check points that from personal experience I can tell you, they stop every car, no matter the skin color of the driver. Quote:
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You can apply for asylum after crossing the border. So it does matter. That's how the law works. Quote:
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https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/402725-ice-detained-us-citizen-for-almost-two-years Quote:
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https://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnv.htm companies can literally do it online it's that easy. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/cs/us/uk-birth-records?kw=birth+records&pgrid=26359860310&ptaid=kwd-15296011&s_kwcid=find+birth+records&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKDg7Akwbcq5T76y6ihDk9E5UlR9I-rNexceafv4Znvvi-m19RssUdhoCQ9wQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&o_xid=59287&o_lid=59287&o_sch=Paid+Search+Non+Brand Hell, regular people can check a birth certificate out. These are things that are commonly recorded. Quote:
Funny how none of these are ever coming from "John Smith" huh? Quote:
I don't think anecdotal evidence is acceptable by community standards as proof, but I can tell you that I have never once had any border agent demand my passport or any other form of ID unless I was at an airport. When we travel for work, it's only ever the engies who aren't white who get stopped and questioned, even though we're all foreign. Quote:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/07/1041991 |
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https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1911-8-usc-1325-unlawful-entry-failure-depart-fleeing-immigration That's how the law works. Quote:
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Also note, that a single prisoner is housed in a Jail that has already been constructed, the US, was not ready for such an epic flood of migration, and is now forced with the task of converting facilities as quickly as possible that were not designed to hold people, into holding facilities. |
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https://www.rescue-uk.org/article/it-legal-cross-us-border-seek-asylum Quote:
Actually, immigration to the US is at a 40 year low. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44319094 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html Even illegal crossings are at a relative low https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html So the myth of the great border floods is entirely Trump's fault, yes, because he made it up. The only thing we have seen an increase of is children, because full families are now fleeing violence and poverty and not just young men like years gone by. Overall numbers are down. Quote:
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https://www.aclu.org/issues/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/immigration-detention-conditions https://www.justia.com/immigration/deportation-removal/detention-by-ice/ ICE raids aren't happening on the border, they're happening in towns and cities. ICE doesn't just arrest kids for crossing the border and the issue of their behavior far exceeds just the kid camps. Quote:
https://www.theroot.com/u-s-government-admits-another-migrant-child-died-under-1834976658 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/migrant-girl-from-guatemala-who-died-in-us-custody-had-infection-autopsy-finds/ Due to the dreadful conditions, illness is running rampant, children are left malnourished and at risk. Children, not criminals, not adults, children. Quote:
The Govt absolutely doesn't use Ancestory.com, but my point is if Joe Average can find a legit birth certificate in 15 minutes it shouldn't take law enforcement three weeks of ignoring said documents being presented to them almost daily. Did you overlook the easy to use govt provided SSN checker? Quote:
https://www.gq.com/story/border-patrol-detained-9-year-old-american-girl https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/04/born-philadelphia-us-citizen-says-he-was-held-deportation-jamaica-ices-request/?utm_term=.bca1cd1505a9 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/opinion/ice-raids.html You might start to see a pattern with all of these detained people, wrongly or (by law anyway) rightfully. They all share a very common trait. None of them are white. Quote:
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https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/jul/08/facts-behind-detention-immigrants/ https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/06/07/predicting-even-more-horrifying-conditions-historical-journalist-describes-parallels I mean, I don't know what else you call the items photographed here. Quote:
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The decline follows a record number of apprehensions between ports of entry in May - the highest in over a decade. It's impossible to say for certain, but US Border Patrol says it has made 688,375 southwest border apprehensions since October 2018. The previous US fiscal year there were 303,916, according to US Customs and Border Protection (CBP). The number fell dramatically in President Trump's first year but rose again last year. The number of migrants apprehended at the border surged in May to the highest level since 2006, with 132,887 detained - including 11,507 unaccompanied children. It was the first time that detentions had exceeded 100,000 since April 2007. Here are some more current articles. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/february-marked-12-year-high-for-illegal-immigration-76-000-encountered-at-southern-border https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/us/border-crossing-increase.html https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/record-number-undocumented-immigrants-flooded-southern-border-may-n1014186 Quote:
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1st: From a quick search, there is still no information as to why the child died, from the original reporting of the Buzzfeed article he was brought in on April 20th to the Brownsville shelter, the next morning he began showing symptoms, and was treated at a hospital, he got worse the next day and eventually died. So far there is no information on what caused his death, and how long he was in ICE custody before arriving at the shelter. Considering the rampant diseases people are showing up with when claiming asylum it is rather possible he was sick before he even came into contact with ICE. 2nd: The girl had congenital heart defects, and died after complications from surgery, I don't see how you can blame ICE for that. 3rd: The father signed a form saying the girl was in good health, although its possible that he had no idea what the form said. That being said she contracted the illness before meeting with border patrol and was rushed to the hospital when her fever was discovered. None of these seem to be the fault of ICE or Border Patrol. Quote:
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https://twitter.com/DHSgov/status/1103318241538179072 Quote:
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https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/12/557302259/sheriff-joe-arpaios-infamous-tent-city-jail-closes One is rather costly to keep up and maintain, he other isn't. Quote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/us/family-separation-migrant-children-detention.html http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/072919_phx_migrants/former-phoenix-elementary-school-transformed-into-migrant-shelter/ |
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"So that family's can stay together in a facility indefinitely" Yeah let's just lock up migrant refugee families forever because they're migrant refugees. |
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If the refugees/migrants don't want to be held at those facilities (I refuse to call them concentration camps because that's not what they are no matter how the Left tries to spin it), then perhaps they shouldn't approach the US border to begin with. I mean at this point they can't be oblivious to how they'll be treated if they try to cross into the US illegally, so I don't understand why they're putting themselves at risk. I also think it's silly for refugees/migrants to think that the US should be responsible for taking them in, as if the US is the source of all of their problems to begin with.
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In other countries, refugees are not held in border patrol facilities. |
fwiw Australia does so as well, but they’re not exactly the country to praise on migration issues
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1HK18Z |
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I also dislike the fact that Mexico just lets migrant caravans waltz right through their country without doing anything about it. They obviously have no intention of providing for the refugees themselves for an extended period of time; they'd just rather let them approach the U.S. border and hand over the problem to the United States. |
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Not going to accuse you of anything but this sounds awfully familiar to another historical "problem" group who were eventually, you know, victims of genocide. Because they were labeled a problem, instead of being treated as if they were, I dunno, people in need. The reason they come to USA instead of another country is simply that the conditions here are better, provided you can eventually work towards citizenship and find a place to live. The other latin american countries they have the "option" of going to clearly aren't that great, otherwise they'd be fleeing there. Perhaps some of them do, but the United States is clearly a popular option because it's the best option, for most. Which is unfortunate, because instead of creating an actual program that helps people attain citizenship and become active members of society, we throw them in the border facility and treat them like criminals. Quote:
Also, I'm basing this off of the conditions of US camps. Can't name too many countries that are on this level of fash just yet, but there are a few that stick out. Australia's colonizers handled its native population and its migrants horribly all throughout history, same with United States, same with etc etc. It almost seems as if countries infiltrated by colonizers who have run out the natives are generally not good at handling migrants. |
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https://www.france24.com/en/20190729-boy-8-dies-after-being-pushed-front-german-train You can find a multitude of stories like this all across Europe and America when it comes to illegal immigration. Quote:
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Not that I'm against temporary detention, as I explained earlier. I just think this particular argument is extremely disingenuous. If you're anti-immigration, that's on you, but don't use falsities or disingenuous arguments to justify your view. |
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Even if you don't like the use of the word concentration camp, you have to admit that the conditions these people are in are appalling. Testimonies from people who were forced into these places say enough, do they not? And I don't think they should be forced in indefinitely, because then it is more of a prison don't you think?
And especially with ICE actually going around to peoples houses to take them away? It's like a dystopian story but it's happening. If someone does not have their proper papers why not just help them get them and let them stay home instead of dragging them away? Especially if they have a job and family. And the crossings are happening more because of how the economy is, it really isn't anyones fault. Venezuela is in a crisis, for one, and Honduras is the most dangerous country in the Americas IIRC. |
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Also in the news, a father of five was killed a few days ago by an illegal immigrant who was escaping deportation. http://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-immigration-advocate-killed-in-crash-with-salvadoran-illegal-immigrant-who-once-sought-sanctuary-in-church-report.amp |
You missed my point. They should help them become legal like the prison system should be there to help rehabilitate inmates.
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Helping people with the immigration process isn't punishing them?? I didn't say only specific people? I have no idea how you're reading what I'm saying.
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I'd let others come over too, if you wish to move to and be a good citizen of another country, how come you can't? What's so wrong with people moving between countries? You know most of Europe has lax borders right? "Illegal" shouldn't be a thing, no person is "illegal" if you can fly to a country you want to live in all the power to you as well.
But you seem set in your ways so I won't waste my time further with this, I didn't mention people being able to jump ahead you just assumed it so you could fault my argument and not pay attention to the fact that it is wrong to treat people how these people are being treated. |
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The core issue is why do people wish to immigrate? Well, it's because:
1. Their own country is war torn, why is this so? Many middle eastern countries are only in shambles because of foreign forces going there and tearing shit up just for oil. 2. The country is poor. In my opinion no country should be poor, and they don't HAVE to be, like 100 people use up 50% of the earths resources, isn't that insane? Million and billionaires don't need all that money while countless people suffer. 3. The country is dangerous, this is linked back to poverty, if the worlds resources weren't hoarded by the mega rich and everyone had a fair share and poverty was a thing of the past you'd find people wouldn't be robbing, killing, etc because they'd be perfectly happy. And the whole "they earned" shit is a thing of the distant past, most mega wealthy people inherited it or had rich parents, and like I said they don't need all that money, they don't need yachts, they don't need gold toilets. The rich live on the backs of the countless they exploit and this immoral and wrong. |
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It's not really deflecting imo. If you make it so people don't have much reason to immigrate to other countries, a cap is not something worth thinking about, as you'll never have to worry about taking in more people than you can handle.
What is deflection however is the constant mentioning of trivial things like immigration caps and "it's not fair to people who have to cross an ocean!" and inflexible adherence to the law over important things like the poor treatment of other human beings simply coming here to escape the awful conditions of their homelands, with said awful conditions caused in significant part by the wealthy elite of the West. |
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Now to answer what you proposed let’s say we did “spread the wealth” around, there are numerous countries that are ruled by drug lords and criminal organizations, do you plan to use the military to overthrow those drug lords? In Africa we see numerous countries ruled by dictators and warlords that take western aid and money and use it to prop themselves up with a lavish lifestyle do you plan to use the military to overthrow them? There are countries that are very resource poor, do you plan to constantly provide those countries aid to support a first world lifestyle? You blame the west on wars in the Middle East, however some of the greatest tension in the Middle East is Shia vs Sunni, ala Saudi Arabia vs Iran, do you plan to use the military to constantly keep those two apart? The same could be said for Pakistan and India, another flash point that has nothing to do with the west. |
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So yes, literally everything about the India-Pakistan problem was created by the West, by the United Kingdom to be precise. Everything you see right now is the effects of the decision of a British dude, just amplified by 70 years of anger because of what he did. |
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https://www.hoover.org/research/islam-and-early-history-pakistan http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/jinnah_mohammad_ali.shtml You also neglect the 1937 elections that saw the Muslims League do poorly and resulted to being largely shut out of the government, fueling discontent and driving the need for a separate country. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammed-Ali-Jinnah |
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49425624
How's that 'they're not concentration camps' argument going, for those that still rally against the idea? You still feel comfortable, secure? Enjoying the taste of boot? |
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https://www.vox.com/2019/8/22/20827949/trump-chosen-one-greenland-bizarreness-explained?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=1566605472&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/stocks-set-to-head-slightly-higher-as-wall-street-awaits-powells-jackson-hole-speech-2019-08-23 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1164914610836783104 Seriously, this man is mentally unstable. I don't know what kind of illness he suffers from (or maybe he's just blind), but this week he was totally deranged and every three hours he's been doing something that would have sent Republicans into asking for a coup to remove Obama had he done one single of these things. "I hereby order companies to leave China and move production to the US", says the candidate of the party that loves free enterprise and warns against socialists telling companies what to do or nationalising them. And these things are not even productive for him. He's pushing the US into an economic crash, which is very much what he doesn't need by next year. |
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/us/dna-testing-immigrants.html
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If you don't care about that, then you must consider that such a policy may violate the Fourth Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I don't know how you feel about authoritarian countries, but it would be very ironic to denounce authoritarian governments worldwide and praise American freedom while supporting such a policy. |
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All of this talk is pointless without discussion of the capabilities and limits of DNA testing and checking, however. It's not a perfect technology, and if you use it on everybody you will inevitably get false positives. And for what purposes would you propose for DNA testing to be used? How long should the information be kept for? My understanding is that it's not very American to take people's information first and ask questions later. Privacy was once upon a time respected in society. |
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As for kinship, I believe under the Flores Agreement, its based on immediate family, although I am not sure. As for adopted children, again that gets back to buying children illegally, and would probably require the parent to provide proper paperwork from their home country showing the adoption was legal. Quote:
Also and this is the most important point of all, these people are asking to enter the US, many times from some of the most dangerous countries in the world with very little information about their past history. How should they expect any amount of privacy when the Government is going to do everything possible to establish the identities of these people? Quote:
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