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Maedar July 28th, 2019 4:29 AM

I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.

IMOHO, some things are universally wrong, and folks who think they can convince me that those things are acceptable, well, it's hard to debate such people.

I'll ask this to anyone here: What if it was YOUR child? Just consider that.

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 4:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049041)
I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.

IMOHO, some things are universally wrong, and folks who think they can convince me that those things are acceptable, well, it's hard to debate such people.

I'll ask this to anyone here: What if it was YOUR child? Just consider that.

I think we can all agree that there is things that need to be done, that there need to be more facilities to properly hold the kids traveling alone, that laws should be changed so that families can stay together, and that more judges appropriated so that migrant claims can move smoother. These facilities need to be clean, well kept, with staff properly trained to deal with the children and families.

I don't think anyone here is condoning child abuse, and I think everyone realizes that these facilities are overwhelmed and breaking, it's a crisis and the Government needs to react accordingly to stem the flood, provide better facilities, and expedite the process.

moon July 28th, 2019 4:38 AM

How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually? Are they too many, or unable to work, or are there other organizational hindrances to that?

(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school)

Maedar July 28th, 2019 4:39 AM

Quote:

I think we can all agree that there is things that need to be done, that there need to be more facilities to properly hold the kids traveling alone, that laws should be changed so that families can stay together, and that more judges appropriated so that migrant claims can move smoother.
Interesting you should say that. Trump's two shutdowns - which, as you recall, he started over his Wall - resulted in immigration court backlogs becoming even worse. Also, he has, several times, suggested doing away with due process for migrants altogether.

What's your opinion of THAT?

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 4:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adventure (Post 10049052)
How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually?

(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school)

That is a good question, there are a number of reasons, for one there is a safety concern as you have to worry about terrorists and gang members crossing who's only purpose is to commit crime.

There is a money aspect, in that American schools are already hurting, and taking in millions upon millions of more children would force more kids in already packed class rooms, force teachers to deal with a myriad of different languages while teaching, and take away valuable time from the other kids.

There is the jobs aspect, in that any economy can only hold a certain number of people at one time, especially in low paying jobs. Any country that takes in millions upon millions of economic migrants will soon find the labor market for those jobs filled.

Which brings me to the final aspect, social services. To properly care for the people the Government would have to provide trillions in social services in terms of housing, food, medical care, and education, that will take money away from other services and eventually lead to resentfulness among the populous.

The US tries to be welcoming and it tries to take in a large amount of people each year, but allowing a flood through would overwhelm the system, pose security problems, and eventually probably lead to ethno nationalist groups that will seek to drive out the refugees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar
Interesting you should say that. Trump's two shutdowns - which, as you recall, he started over his Wall - resulted in immigration court backlogs becoming even worse. Also, he has, several times, suggested doing away with due process for migrants altogether.

What's your opinion of THAT?

I do think we need a wall, in that it will funnel the people to ports of entry in which they can properly apply for asylum. To tie it back into the topic, one reason we are facing a crisis is because so many people are not applying at ports of entry but instead trying to sneak across, doing so forces the Government to place these people in facilities instead of having them wait in Mexico.

LDSman July 28th, 2019 4:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adventure (Post 10049052)
How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually? Are they too many, or unable to work, or are there other organizational hindrances to that?

(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school)

All of that is a reason that most countries simply don't allow unlimited immigration/open borders. A lot are unskilled laborers, some are not law-abiding. Drop 10 new people who need help and the system can usually be adjusted to cover them. Drop 10,000 and the system becomes overwhelmed.

Edit: Alt said it better.

Nah July 28th, 2019 4:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049041)
I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.

If it's getting that hard to maintain a reasonable level of cool, that's probably a sign that it's time to step out of the conversation for a bit. This is something for everyone to keep in mind btw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adventure (Post 10049016)
I'm curious where I should read more about this, the detention camps in particular. What are some good sources for finding as impartial yet reasonable information as possible on this?

Not entirely sure what is the sort of stuff that you're looking for, but these things may or may not be of use to you or others reading this thread:

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Sep/CBP%20TEDS%20Policy%20Oct2015.pdf

https://www.ice.gov/detention-management

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-apps-sector-area-fy2018.pdf
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-uacs-sector-fy2010-fy2018.pdf
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-family-units-sector-fy13-fy18.pdf

It's a lot to read (the first one is 31 pages lol), and I've hardly looked at the first two links at all myself, but I figure that this stuff is likely a little better than random-ass news articles....hopefully, anyway.

Maedar July 28th, 2019 4:51 AM

Quote:

I do think we need a wall, in that it will funnel the people to ports of entry in which they can properly apply for asylum. To tie it back into the topic, one reason we are facing a crisis is because so many people are not applying at ports of entry but instead trying to sneak across, doing so forces the Government to place these people in facilities instead of having them wait in Mexico.
Watch this video. It explains fully why the wall is an unfeasible - and possibly impossible - goal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdUIXvwuwto&list=PLDpZdP4i5RSDpW87ZzZlquEpTF7Sz1FST&index=6&t=0s

LDSman July 28th, 2019 4:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10049055)

I do think we need a wall, in that it will funnel the people to ports of entry in which they can properly apply for asylum. To tie it back into the topic, one reason we are facing a crisis is because so many people are not applying at ports of entry but instead trying to sneak across, doing so forces the Government to place these people in facilities instead of having them wait in Mexico.

And even Mexico is having problems with the illegal immigrants.

A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"? People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life. The numbers get high enough that the civilization can't keep up and it is eventually destroyed.

moon July 28th, 2019 4:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDSman (Post 10049062)
And even Mexico is having problems with the illegal immigrants.

A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"? People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life. The numbers get high enough that the civilization can't keep up and it is eventually destroyed.

Okay, that's enough. We're not going to derail this thread by making it sound as if Mexicans fleeing into the US are barbarians. Keep your arguments respectful, or don't debate at all.

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 5:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049061)
Watch this video. It explains fully why the wall is an unfeasible - and possibly impossible - goal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdUIXvwuwto&list=PLDpZdP4i5RSDpW87ZzZlquEpTF7Sz1FST&index=6&t=0s

For those wondering here is what the video says. However I really would like to go back to discussing the topic at hand, being the facilities.

9: The wall could become a tourist attraction, which has no relevance here.

8 The wall could go way over budget, fair point, but we are already going over budget just trying to build and maintain new holding facilities.

7: It would only stop half of the illegals. Fair point, and we could get into the numbers, however in terms of health and safety aspect at least those who cross through airports are properly vetted and screened for diseases.

6: The wall causes environmental change: Not really relevant to the discussion, and one could argue all the garbage dumped by people crossing in these habitats does far more damage.

5: The wall makes the smugglers rich: Not relevant to the discussion, but the smugglers are already getting rich, just getting a person to the US Mexico border costs around $4,000.

4: Illegal Aliens Build the Wall: Again not relevant

3: The wall helps the Mexican economy: Good for them?

2: Mexico doesn't pay for the wall: Again not relevant, but there are ways to make Mexico pay for the wall from placing taxes on remittance to using seized drug money.

1: The wall never gets finished: This is just arguing the wall won't get finished in four years and has no relevance to the discussion.

LDSman July 28th, 2019 5:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adventure (Post 10049064)
Okay, that's enough. We're not going to derail this thread by making it sound as if Mexicans fleeing into the US are barbarians. Keep your arguments respectful, or don't debate at all.

Apologies. I wasn't trying to imply that Mexicans are barbarians. Hence the quotation marks. Outsiders would have worked better I guess. I was trying to point out that its possible to overwhelm a society with sheer numbers. The population growth outstrips the jobs, the housing, the food, etc.

Maedar July 28th, 2019 5:09 AM

Quote:

A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"?
Define "barbarians"?

Quote:

People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life.
That's a pretty callous statement, LDS. Ask yourself this:

You live in a place with no electricity, and no running water. The water you have is the same water animals use as a toilet. Your children are uneducated, malnourished, and sick. You make around 10 cents an hour for a job you know you can do in America for $7.50 an hour.

Is a wall - or even a long stretch of desert - going to stop you?

And as for your claim that "they're criminals, they deserve it"? First of all, the crime they commit is trespassing. I was arrested for trespassing 10 years ago. I got a desk appearance ticket (didn't have to pay bail) showed up in court with about 50 other folks who had been given similar citations, signed a no contest form and did 50 hours of community service. It wasn't even added to my record. What is happening to them now seems disproportionate.

Plus, they are children, which means "below age of consent" and not liable for such things. Children below age of consent can't be held legally responsible for what their parents do.

And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you.

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 5:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049075)
And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you.

"Mexican authorities are warning refugee mothers about men seeking to buy migrant children to improve their chances of asylum at the United States border.

Officials have grown concerned after men from 'Central America or Haiti' were seen approaching mothers - especially those deemed vulnerable - at the Iglesia Evangelica Embajadores de Jesus shelter in Tijuana offering them $350 to purchase a child to cross into the U.S."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7201581/Groups-willing-pay-350-children-cross-U-S-border-family.html



Some migrants in Tijuana are trying to purchase children from vulnerable single mothers in local shelters so they can more easily cross into the United States, according to shelter directors, migrants and Tijuana law enforcement authorities.

Migrants in Tijuana shelters said they are alarmed after reports of single mothers being approached by groups of men who have offered to buy children to improve their chances of safely crossing into the United States.

A decades-old legal document, known as the Flores agreement, says migrant children should only be held briefly in U.S. border custody, which often means they are released, along with the parent or guardian with whom they crossed while they wait for their asylum cases to make their way through clogged immigration courts.

Typically, when migrants are apprehended at the border with their children they are held in custody for a few days before they are released. Single adults who cross the border can face months in detention.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/authorities-investigate-reports-of-migrants-trying-to-buy-children-to-enter-the-u-s/



In villages such as Chanmagua, where years of depressed coffee prices have pushed families to the breaking point, young children and teenagers are seen as boarding passes to the flight for economic survival. Their absence is evident on soccer teams with too few players and coffee farms with thinner staffs at harvest time. Just this year, 100 adults and children have left, including 17 from the town’s only kindergarten class, local officials said.

Within this exodus, a small number of cases have particularly troubled the town. Some parents have given up their children to other adults — sometimes for cash — to help the adult enter the United States, according to town officials, charity workers and residents. These transactions sometimes involve a minor traveling with a relative or godparent; in other cases, they say, the adult has no relation to the child.

Such arrangements are referred to, euphemistically, as “adoptions.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-central-americans-children-open-a-path-to-the-us--and-bring-a-discount/2018/11/19/baf3b092-e6ce-11e8-bbdb-72fdbf9d4fed_story.html?utm_term=.1187ec463b61

Maedar July 28th, 2019 5:25 AM

Again, why punish the children for this? Don't your claims make them more the victims of a crime than criminals?

You can quote statistics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to defend something that is cruel and inhumane.

Also, you claimed we need the wall, I explained why it's not a feasible goal, I think ALL my points are VERY relevant, since they prove it's an unobtainable fantasy.

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 5:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049081)
Again, why punish the children for this? Don't your claims make them more the victims of a crime than criminals?

I am not for punishing the child, I believe they should be held in a proper and clean facility while they go through the immigration process, be subject to a DNA test to see if they are related to the person they are crossing with, and preferably stay with their parents inside the facility if at all possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049081)
You can quote statistics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to defend something that is cruel and inhumane.

Can you please tell me what other solutions exist to deal with this crisis?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049081)
Also, you claimed we need the wall, I explained why it's not a feasible goal, I think ALL my points are VERY relevant, since they prove it's an unobtainable fantasy.

I... don't see anywhere in the video provided where a wall would be infeasible. Also just to note, considering the heat, vast stretches, of desert, and inherent danger of wild animals in the area, isn't it hurting the children by not having a wall up that would funnel them to a proper port of entry?

LDSman July 28th, 2019 5:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049075)
Define "barbarians"?

In this case, outsiders, low skilled laborers, people who may not wish to be Americans, just to benefit from the society. May not wish to adopt American culture and instead bring in their own culture. IE, their own justice system, their own leaders. Enclaves that ignore American laws in favor of their own.

Quote:

That's a pretty callous statement, LDS.
Not sure how its callous to mention facts. The illegals immigrants aren't coming to be tourists.

Quote:

Ask yourself this:

You live in a place with no electricity, and no running water. The water you have is the same water animals use as a toilet. Your children are uneducated, malnourished, and sick. You make around 10 cents an hour for a job you know you can do in America for $7.50 an hour.

Is a wall - or even a long stretch of desert - going to stop you?
Probably not. So what? I still assume the risk of being jailed and deported for breaking the laws of the destination country.

Quote:

And as for your claim that "they're criminals, they deserve it"? First of all, the crime they commit is trespassing. I was arrested for trespassing 10 years ago. I got a desk appearance ticket (didn't have to pay bail) showed up in court with about 50 other folks who had been given similar citations, signed a no contest form and did 50 hours of community service. It wasn't even added to my record. What is happening to them now seems disproportionate.
There is a huge difference between trespassing and entering another country illegally with the intent of living and working there. Trespassing and felony B&E or squatting.

And I'm not aware of saying that claim.

Quote:

Plus, they are children, which means "below age of consent" and not liable for such things. Children below age of consent can't be held legally responsible for what their parents do.

And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you.
The children aren't being held legally responsible. Doesn't mean that they just get turned out onto the streets or given to strangers claiming to be relatives. See Alt's response to not believing me.

Maedar July 28th, 2019 5:31 AM

Quote:

I am not for punishing the child, I believe they should be held in a proper and clean facility while they go through the immigration process, be subject to a DNA test to see if they are related to the person they are crossing with, and preferably stay with their parents inside the facility if at all possible.
So why isn't anyone in the Trump administration willing to pass reform? Why does McConnell continue to block bills to correct this system?

Quote:

The children aren't being held legally responsible.
They are being jailed and held in filthy conditions.

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 5:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049086)
So why isn't anyone in the Trump administration willing to pass reform? Why does McConnell continue to block bills to correct this system?

Trump recently signed a 5 billion dollar border bill.

https://nypost.com/2019/07/01/trump-signs-bill-granting-4-6b-in-emergency-funds-for-us-border/

The Trump Administration has also been trying to set up a Safe Third Country relationship with countries south of the US border to stem the flow, he got the Mexican army to provide greater enforcement of their own southern border, and has kept the "Remain in Mexico" deal which helps deter migrants who are only trying to get into America for economic reasons.

There is also a bill in the House that would make DNA testing required for all migrants, with anyone trying to scam the system subject to ten years in prison.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gop-congressman-introduces-bill-to-test-migrants-dna-at-border-as-officials-warn-of-child-recycling

Maedar July 28th, 2019 5:42 AM

Quote:

In this case, outsiders, low skilled laborers, people who may not wish to be Americans, just to benefit from the society. May not wish to adopt American culture and instead bring in their own culture. IE, their own justice system, their own leaders. Enclaves that ignore American laws in favor of their own.
I do not see why "outsider" means "barbarian". "Guest" might be another term.

Diversity is what has always made America strong, LDS. What does it say on the Statue of Liberty's plaque.

Quote:

sure how its callous to mention facts. The illegals immigrants aren't coming to be tourists.
You claimed they were coming for a "slice of pie". IMOHO, that's like saying "let them eat cake". These people are starving, poverty stricken, and ill.

Quote:

The children aren't being held legally responsible. Doesn't mean that they just get turned out onto the streets or given to strangers claiming to be relatives. See Alt's response to not believing me.
So caging them and treating them like animals is preferable? Why do you condone that?


Quote:

Trump recently signed a 5 billion dollar border bill.
And how did we accomplish THAT?? Compromise. Something Trump has, 95% of the time, refused to do. He has mostly ruled by Executive Order, something he condemned Obama for doing.

I have to go to work now, so I'll end with this: We are not on the same page, ALT. You keep giving me statistics and laws to justify something I find morally and ethically wrong.

Just because an authority figure CAN do something doesn't mean he SHOULD. The terms "unlawful" and "evil" are two very different things. Trump's policies are usually within the laws of the country, but IMOHO, directly oppose the laws of God.

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 5:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049090)
I have to go to work now, so I'll end with this: We are not on the same page, ALT. You keep giving me statistics and laws to justify something I find morally and ethically wrong.

Just because an authority figure CAN do something doesn't mean he SHOULD. The terms "unlawful" and "evil" are two very different things. Trump's policies are usually within the laws of the country, but IMOHO, directly oppose the laws of God.

Okay, for a third time, I ask how would you deal with the crisis then? You have upwards of a million people from all over the world crossing the southern border, you have families that may or may not be related crossing, and the vast majority of them that are being released are disappearing and not showing up for their court date. Can you please explain what would be a better plan for this situation?

I hope you have a good day at work, and I am interested to see what plan you would present to deal with the current crisis.

LDSman July 28th, 2019 6:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedar (Post 10049090)
I do not see why "outsider" means "barbarian". "Guest" might be another term.

A guest is someone you invite in. Not someone who sneaks in during the night or in through a window.



Quote:

Diversity is what has always made America strong, LDS. What does it say on the Statue of Liberty's plaque.
To a point. We are all Americans. If someone is not willing to be an American, they are not a strength. If the laws in their area are not the laws of Americans, how is that a strength?



Quote:

You claimed they were coming for a "slice of pie". IMOHO, that's like saying "let them eat cake". These people are starving, poverty stricken, and ill.
Historically, that is not the same saying in any way. "Let them eat cake" was supposedly from a queen who had no clue that cake flour was more expensive that bread flour and that poor peasants couldn't afford cake flour when the bread flour ran out. She was oblivious to facts. Wanting a "slice of the pie" is wanting to benefit from the hard work.

Quote:

So caging them and treating them like animals is preferable? Why do you condone that?
They aren't being caged and treated like animals.

gimmepie July 28th, 2019 6:06 AM

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.

LDSman July 28th, 2019 6:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 10049105)
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.

Problem is how long would it take to provide those skills and knowledge? Which skills? What knowledge? Are we talking basic English and an overview of the average American lifestyle or a high school/college diploma so the immigrant can have a good job as opposed to a very low level job? How much would that run and how many people would be needed to run it?

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 6:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 10049105)
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.

May I ask, is there any set number you believe a country should allow each year? 10,000? 100,000? A million? The reason I ask is that you say that detention should be temporary with a path into the country, but does that not create a flood of immigrants into the system, thus causing the problems we spoke about earlier with overflowing schools, a lack of jobs, and a overburdened welfare system?


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