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I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.
IMOHO, some things are universally wrong, and folks who think they can convince me that those things are acceptable, well, it's hard to debate such people. I'll ask this to anyone here: What if it was YOUR child? Just consider that. |
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I don't think anyone here is condoning child abuse, and I think everyone realizes that these facilities are overwhelmed and breaking, it's a crisis and the Government needs to react accordingly to stem the flood, provide better facilities, and expedite the process. |
How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually? Are they too many, or unable to work, or are there other organizational hindrances to that?
(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school) |
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What's your opinion of THAT? |
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There is a money aspect, in that American schools are already hurting, and taking in millions upon millions of more children would force more kids in already packed class rooms, force teachers to deal with a myriad of different languages while teaching, and take away valuable time from the other kids. There is the jobs aspect, in that any economy can only hold a certain number of people at one time, especially in low paying jobs. Any country that takes in millions upon millions of economic migrants will soon find the labor market for those jobs filled. Which brings me to the final aspect, social services. To properly care for the people the Government would have to provide trillions in social services in terms of housing, food, medical care, and education, that will take money away from other services and eventually lead to resentfulness among the populous. The US tries to be welcoming and it tries to take in a large amount of people each year, but allowing a flood through would overwhelm the system, pose security problems, and eventually probably lead to ethno nationalist groups that will seek to drive out the refugees. Quote:
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Edit: Alt said it better. |
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https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Sep/CBP%20TEDS%20Policy%20Oct2015.pdf https://www.ice.gov/detention-management https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-apps-sector-area-fy2018.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-uacs-sector-fy2010-fy2018.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-total-monthly-family-units-sector-fy13-fy18.pdf It's a lot to read (the first one is 31 pages lol), and I've hardly looked at the first two links at all myself, but I figure that this stuff is likely a little better than random-ass news articles....hopefully, anyway. |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdUIXvwuwto&list=PLDpZdP4i5RSDpW87ZzZlquEpTF7Sz1FST&index=6&t=0s |
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A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"? People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life. The numbers get high enough that the civilization can't keep up and it is eventually destroyed. |
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9: The wall could become a tourist attraction, which has no relevance here. 8 The wall could go way over budget, fair point, but we are already going over budget just trying to build and maintain new holding facilities. 7: It would only stop half of the illegals. Fair point, and we could get into the numbers, however in terms of health and safety aspect at least those who cross through airports are properly vetted and screened for diseases. 6: The wall causes environmental change: Not really relevant to the discussion, and one could argue all the garbage dumped by people crossing in these habitats does far more damage. 5: The wall makes the smugglers rich: Not relevant to the discussion, but the smugglers are already getting rich, just getting a person to the US Mexico border costs around $4,000. 4: Illegal Aliens Build the Wall: Again not relevant 3: The wall helps the Mexican economy: Good for them? 2: Mexico doesn't pay for the wall: Again not relevant, but there are ways to make Mexico pay for the wall from placing taxes on remittance to using seized drug money. 1: The wall never gets finished: This is just arguing the wall won't get finished in four years and has no relevance to the discussion. |
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You live in a place with no electricity, and no running water. The water you have is the same water animals use as a toilet. Your children are uneducated, malnourished, and sick. You make around 10 cents an hour for a job you know you can do in America for $7.50 an hour. Is a wall - or even a long stretch of desert - going to stop you? And as for your claim that "they're criminals, they deserve it"? First of all, the crime they commit is trespassing. I was arrested for trespassing 10 years ago. I got a desk appearance ticket (didn't have to pay bail) showed up in court with about 50 other folks who had been given similar citations, signed a no contest form and did 50 hours of community service. It wasn't even added to my record. What is happening to them now seems disproportionate. Plus, they are children, which means "below age of consent" and not liable for such things. Children below age of consent can't be held legally responsible for what their parents do. And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you. |
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Officials have grown concerned after men from 'Central America or Haiti' were seen approaching mothers - especially those deemed vulnerable - at the Iglesia Evangelica Embajadores de Jesus shelter in Tijuana offering them $350 to purchase a child to cross into the U.S." https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7201581/Groups-willing-pay-350-children-cross-U-S-border-family.html Some migrants in Tijuana are trying to purchase children from vulnerable single mothers in local shelters so they can more easily cross into the United States, according to shelter directors, migrants and Tijuana law enforcement authorities. Migrants in Tijuana shelters said they are alarmed after reports of single mothers being approached by groups of men who have offered to buy children to improve their chances of safely crossing into the United States. A decades-old legal document, known as the Flores agreement, says migrant children should only be held briefly in U.S. border custody, which often means they are released, along with the parent or guardian with whom they crossed while they wait for their asylum cases to make their way through clogged immigration courts. Typically, when migrants are apprehended at the border with their children they are held in custody for a few days before they are released. Single adults who cross the border can face months in detention. https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/authorities-investigate-reports-of-migrants-trying-to-buy-children-to-enter-the-u-s/ In villages such as Chanmagua, where years of depressed coffee prices have pushed families to the breaking point, young children and teenagers are seen as boarding passes to the flight for economic survival. Their absence is evident on soccer teams with too few players and coffee farms with thinner staffs at harvest time. Just this year, 100 adults and children have left, including 17 from the town’s only kindergarten class, local officials said. Within this exodus, a small number of cases have particularly troubled the town. Some parents have given up their children to other adults — sometimes for cash — to help the adult enter the United States, according to town officials, charity workers and residents. These transactions sometimes involve a minor traveling with a relative or godparent; in other cases, they say, the adult has no relation to the child. Such arrangements are referred to, euphemistically, as “adoptions.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-central-americans-children-open-a-path-to-the-us--and-bring-a-discount/2018/11/19/baf3b092-e6ce-11e8-bbdb-72fdbf9d4fed_story.html?utm_term=.1187ec463b61 |
Again, why punish the children for this? Don't your claims make them more the victims of a crime than criminals?
You can quote statistics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to defend something that is cruel and inhumane. Also, you claimed we need the wall, I explained why it's not a feasible goal, I think ALL my points are VERY relevant, since they prove it's an unobtainable fantasy. |
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And I'm not aware of saying that claim. Quote:
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https://nypost.com/2019/07/01/trump-signs-bill-granting-4-6b-in-emergency-funds-for-us-border/ The Trump Administration has also been trying to set up a Safe Third Country relationship with countries south of the US border to stem the flow, he got the Mexican army to provide greater enforcement of their own southern border, and has kept the "Remain in Mexico" deal which helps deter migrants who are only trying to get into America for economic reasons. There is also a bill in the House that would make DNA testing required for all migrants, with anyone trying to scam the system subject to ten years in prison. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gop-congressman-introduces-bill-to-test-migrants-dna-at-border-as-officials-warn-of-child-recycling |
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Diversity is what has always made America strong, LDS. What does it say on the Statue of Liberty's plaque. Quote:
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I have to go to work now, so I'll end with this: We are not on the same page, ALT. You keep giving me statistics and laws to justify something I find morally and ethically wrong. Just because an authority figure CAN do something doesn't mean he SHOULD. The terms "unlawful" and "evil" are two very different things. Trump's policies are usually within the laws of the country, but IMOHO, directly oppose the laws of God. |
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I hope you have a good day at work, and I am interested to see what plan you would present to deal with the current crisis. |
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I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to detain immigrants as long as it's temporary, humane and comfortable and provides them with the chance to develop the skills and knowledge they'll need to make a life for themselves over the border - with the intent to provide a path into the country. The trouble I feel here has a lot more to do with the conditions and the intent than with the detainment itself.
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