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gimmepie July 28th, 2019 6:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDSman (Post 10049107)
Problem is how long would it take to provide those skills and knowledge? Which skills? What knowledge? Are we talking basic English and an overview of the average American lifestyle or a high school/college diploma so the immigrant can have a good job as opposed to a very low level job? How much would that run and how many people would be needed to run it?

I'd settle for basic English and any important legal information that was needed with improving facilities as the main goal. I think the idea of at the very least providing children appropriate schooling during detainment in the mean time is a good idea though and something to work towards.

gimmepie July 28th, 2019 7:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10049108)
May I ask, is there any set number you believe a country should allow each year? 10,000? 100,000? A million? The reason I ask is that you say that detention should be temporary with a path into the country, but does that not create a flood of immigrants into the system, thus causing the problems we spoke about earlier with overflowing schools, a lack of jobs, and a overburdened welfare system?

I couldn't say for sure on that, but I think having such a policy certainly becomes a lot more plausible in a system where the detention is comfortable and even potentially helpful thanks to the education available.

Edit: Oh shit double post, my bad.

Hands July 28th, 2019 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10045231)
It all depends on how it affects the individual person, the Eric Garner case while a miscarriage of justice won't really be noticed in all the noise outside of those that are actively following it.

The "Concentration Camps", well we can disagree on the use of that word to describe those buildings, but I would say the attack on them and the recent raising of the Mexican flag on their property does more damage than helps. Even the use of the word "Concentration Camps" to describe them probably sends most people into eye rolls.

As for the "Send her back" chants, while wrong, I am interested to see how it plays out, the "Squad" has said some pretty outrageous things, that the GOP has now made a campaign video of, and her sponsoring a BDS vote certainly will not help her in the eyes of the American public.

Anyway to answer your question, Americans are quite resilient when it comes to the outrageous outrage of politics, and usually pretty quick to forget and move on. What may seem shocking and anger educing to you or I will be forgotten by this time next year.



They are unarguably concentration camps. The fact American citizens have ended up in them because they look foreign should speak volumes about what their intended purpose is.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

EnglishALT July 28th, 2019 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049381)
They are unarguably concentration camps. The fact American citizens have ended up in them because they look foreign should speak volumes about what their intended purpose is.

If you are speaking about Francisco Erwin Galicia, the reason he ended up in custody was because he was traveling in the car with other illegal immigrants, and his own illegal immigrant mother screwed up on his VISA saying he was born in Mexico, leading to ICE to think his documents were fake. It is sad he was detained but it is not like he was picked up because he looked foreign.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/07/francisco-erwin-galicia/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049381)

Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order.

Well lets look at this, they are not members of a national or minority group, they are not being confined for state security, exploitation, or punishment unless you believe being confined for immigration processing is a state security reason, which I would then ask why are they being let out after their case is processed?

Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial.

Again not being placed in on the basis of a particular ethnic or political group, and they are allowed the opportunity to plead their case for asylum in front of a judge.

Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons.

The last one, being a detention center for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons would most likely fit the descriptions of these camps.

So your link proves they are not concentration camps!

Nah July 29th, 2019 5:15 AM

Tbh the semantics aren’t important. Whatever we call them, the important thing is that under no circumstances are the conditions at the border acceptable, and it’s not good that the president and his administration think that they are doing a good job.

Hands July 29th, 2019 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10049385)
If you are speaking about Francisco Erwin Galicia, the reason he ended up in custody was because he was traveling in the car with other illegal immigrants, and his own illegal immigrant mother screwed up on his VISA saying he was born in Mexico, leading to ICE to think his documents were fake. It is sad he was detained but it is not like he was picked up because he looked foreign.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/07/francisco-erwin-galicia/



Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order.

Well lets look at this, they are not members of a national or minority group, they are not being confined for state security, exploitation, or punishment unless you believe being confined for immigration processing is a state security reason, which I would then ask why are they being let out after their case is processed?

Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial.

Again not being placed in on the basis of a particular ethnic or political group, and they are allowed the opportunity to plead their case for asylum in front of a judge.

Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons.

The last one, being a detention center for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons would most likely fit the descriptions of these camps.

So your link proves they are not concentration camps!


Only they are strictly for minority groups lol. How many white Brits who overstayed their visas are in the camps? How many Canadian kids have gone missing or died in the camps?





It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it. The Govt has consistently referred to the caravans or migrants themselves as a risk to national security (the wall is entirely based on this) and they are targeting people exclusively based on their ethnic appearance. There's literally no reasonable denying it.




It also doesn't matter what his mother's status was or if she made an admin error, he had an American birth certificate, SSN and his lawyer provided every other document they asked for and he was still held for three weeks in squalid conditions, denied access to a phone call, denied access to sanitary facilities (this would actually be a war crime if it happened to a prisoner of war) and was underfed. The fact you defend this is honestly worrying.



I'm glad you glossed over the conditions though. Those camps are not fit for humans. At all. Kids sleeping on cold concrete, overcrowded cells, masked guards, physical cages. These camps make the British concentration camps of the Boer war look tolerable.

EnglishALT July 29th, 2019 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049773)
Only they are strictly for minority groups lol. How many white Brits who overstayed their visas are in the camps? How many Canadian kids have gone missing or died in the camps?

How many Brits or Canadian kids are crossing the border illegally and applying for asylum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049773)
It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it. The Govt has consistently referred to the caravans or migrants themselves as a risk to national security (the wall is entirely based on this) and they are targeting people exclusively based on their ethnic appearance. There's literally no reasonable denying it.

So it's entirely politically motivated, then these camps did not exist before Trump?

https://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5

Now letting the caravans in with out properly documenting each person, making sure they do not have a criminal history, making sure they are not carrying diseases is a national security risk. However that is not what is happening here is it? They are putting people in these camps, and then slowly releasing them. So again I ask, if they pose such a national security risk by letting them out at all, why are they going through the process of allowing them to apply for asylum?

As for targeting people based on ethnic appearance, do you mind providing an example, as I already shot one down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049773)
It also doesn't matter what his mother's status was or if she made an admin error, he had an American birth certificate, SSN and his lawyer provided every other document they asked for and he was still held for three weeks in squalid conditions, denied access to a phone call, denied access to sanitary facilities (this would actually be a war crime if it happened to a prisoner of war) and was underfed. The fact you defend this is honestly worrying.

I have not defended the state of the facilities, I have said more money needs to be placed in there, more man power, etc etc. However the fact documents like birth certificates and social security numbers are easily faked in the US, and that his name was bringing up problems in the system, can be understood as to why he was taken into custody. It was not a case of "Oh he looks hispanic, get him" as you made it out to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049773)
I'm glad you glossed over the conditions though. Those camps are not fit for humans. At all. Kids sleeping on cold concrete, overcrowded cells, masked guards, physical cages. These camps make the British concentration camps of the Boer war look tolerable.

They are overcrowded no doubt, there needs to be better living conditions and more money placed into it. That is one thing we both agree on.

Hands July 30th, 2019 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10049775)
How many Brits or Canadian kids are crossing the border illegally and applying for asylum?

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/08/07/dhs-foreigners-overstayed-visas-2017/924316002/


Canadians are the biggest offenders for overstaying visa and a noted number of French and Brits routinely overstay visas as well. Yet ICE isn't stopping busses of white people to make sure none of those pesky red coats are hiding on them.



Also, you cannot illegally cross a border and apply for asylum. If you are applying for asylum you are following international law and therefore your crossing of the border was legal. You would only be illegally entering the country if you failed to seek asylum and successfully entered the country off the grid.



Quote:

So it's entirely politically motivated, then these camps did not exist before Trump?

That's a logical fallacy. The camps existing before Trump is completely irrelevant. It was wrong then, absolutely, but he has rapidly increased the scope of it.

https://cmsny.org/trumps-executive-orders-immigration-refugees/

https://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/trump-ice/565772/

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/22/warning-new-show-me-your-papers-era-rights-advocates-vow-fight-unlawful-trump-plan

https://globalnews.ca/news/4284138/separation-children-parents-us-border-permanent/



Of course, not that it matters who started it, the US has always been institutionally racist, whether it was Obama's ICE caging US citizens for years or Trump's ICE "losing" over 3,000 children.

Quote:

Now letting the caravans in with out properly documenting each person, making sure they do not have a criminal history, making sure they are not carrying diseases is a national security risk.
So, we're in agreement it's presented as a national security risk, gotcha.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-army-soldiers-migrant-detention-camp-donna-texas-a9023591.html so much so that the US army are now manning some of the camps. An army branch of a far right govt manning camps comprised entirely of minority groups. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think this happened before somewhere a few times. Tricky, it's almost like there's a repeat going on of...well.....geez...British/German/Japanese/French/Spanish/American concentration camps of olde!




Quote:

However that is not what is happening here is it? They are putting people in these camps, and then slowly releasing them.
Some people are literally there for years. There are people in ICE detention who've been there longer than most British POWs were in Japanese camps during the second World War.



Quote:

So again I ask, if they pose such a national security risk by letting them out at all, why are they going through the process of allowing them to apply for asylum?
pesky little thing called International Law.


Quote:

As for targeting people based on ethnic appearance, do you mind providing an example, as I already shot one down.

uh yeah, there were over 300,000 (that's more than Mexicans who attempted to enter the country illegally) white foreigners who overstayed their visas since Trump came into office (and we will see it increase again for 2018) and yet not a single one of them has ended up in the camps and ICE are not out there demanding to see the papers and birth certificates of whites on the street, in busses, at work etc on the off chance they're an illegal brit or canadian.



Quote:

I have not defended the state of the facilities
No, just their right to detain children in squalid conditions almost indefinitely with no due process.


Quote:

I have said more money needs to be placed in there, more man power, etc etc

https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost


they've already got plenty of money going in and still they're making kids eat frozen meals and refusing to let them wash. They've got the man power, it's walking around with guns.


Quote:

However the fact documents like birth certificates and social security numbers are easily faked in the US, and that his name was bringing up problems in the system, can be understood as to why he was taken into custody.
They can check both of those for legitimacy with ease and simply refused to whilst also denying him his legal rights. So uh, it's not understandable in the slightest and would never have happened to a white person.

Quote:

It was not a case of "Oh he looks hispanic, get him" as you made it out to be.

Yes it was. They aren't stop searching every car of whites they see, they are doing it to every car of "Hispanic looking people" they see.



Quote:

They are overcrowded no doubt, there needs to be better living conditions and more money placed into it. That is one thing we both agree on.
Again, they are already paying the equivalent of roughly $23,000 pcm per kid. How much more money do you need to supply $60 beds and basic sanitary facilities? Also I don't agree with you at all, I think every ICE official should be tried at the Hague and the camps shut down and left empty as a reminder to the world just how despicable the apparent land of the free really is.

EnglishALT July 30th, 2019 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/08/07/dhs-foreigners-overstayed-visas-2017/924316002/


Canadians are the biggest offenders for overstaying visa and a noted number of French and Brits routinely overstay visas as well. Yet ICE isn't stopping busses of white people to make sure none of those pesky red coats are hiding on them.

Except these border camps are not for those overstaying their VISAs, they are for those who have been picked up crossing the border illegally, a rather massive difference. Are you suggesting that if a Hispanic person were to overstay his or her VISA they would be put into a border camp, while a French or British citizen would not? If so where is your proof that is happening?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
Also, you cannot illegally cross a border and apply for asylum. If you are applying for asylum you are following international law and therefore your crossing of the border was legal. You would only be illegally entering the country if you failed to seek asylum and successfully entered the country off the grid.

You can seek asylum by applying for it at a port of entry, in which case the person will stay in Mexico until their case is processed. Entering the US by illegally crossing the border however is still a crime, it does not matter if they are trying to seek asylum or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
That's a logical fallacy. The camps existing before Trump is completely irrelevant. It was wrong then, absolutely, but he has rapidly increased the scope of it.

https://cmsny.org/trumps-executive-orders-immigration-refugees/

https://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/trump-ice/565772/

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/22/warning-new-show-me-your-papers-era-rights-advocates-vow-fight-unlawful-trump-plan

https://globalnews.ca/news/4284138/separation-children-parents-us-border-permanent/

Of course, not that it matters who started it, the US has always been institutionally racist, whether it was Obama's ICE caging US citizens for years or Trump's ICE "losing" over 3,000 children.

They are completely relevant as your argument is, and I quote: It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it.

If these camps are part of US policy before Trump became President, to deal with a massive wave of migrants, then how can these camps be politically motivated by Trump?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
So, we're in agreement it's presented as a national security risk, gotcha.

Only if they are not processed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
Some people are literally there for years. There are people in ICE detention who've been there longer than most British POWs were in Japanese camps during the second World War.

Proof please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
pesky little thing called International Law.

So wait are they concentration camps or are they processing camps for asylum cases?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
uh yeah, there were over 30,000 (that's 10,000 more than Mexicans who attempted to enter the country illegally) white foreigners who overstayed their visas in both 2016 and again in 2017 (and we will see it again for 2018) and yet not a single one of them has ended up in the camps and ICE are not out there demanding to see the papers and birth certificates of whites on the street, in busses, at work etc on the off chance they're an illegal brit or canadian.

Again I ask, have you any proof that VISA overstays are being sent to camps meant to process people who illegally cross the border, and not the normal prison system?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost

they've already got plenty of money going in and still they're making kids eat frozen meals and refusing to let them wash. They've got the man power, it's walking around with guns.

If they have the money then why did Congress just a few weeks ago have to approve billions more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
They can check both of those for legitimacy with ease and simply refused to whilst also denying him his legal rights. So uh, it's not understandable in the slightest and would never have happened to a white person.

You seem to have this insider knowledge of how quickly a government agent can go through the system to check the credentials of the hundreds of people apprehended each day. You mind providing proof as to where you got this information?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
Yes it was. They aren't stop searching every car of whites they see, they are doing it to every car of "Hispanic looking people" they see.

So, you have proof they are stopping people purely based on race? That seems like a racial profiling lawsuit in the making and not based on any proof what so ever.

Mind you Francisco Erwin Galicia was stopped at a border patrol check point in Falfurrias, Texas, not far from the Mexican border, check points that from personal experience I can tell you, they stop every car, no matter the skin color of the driver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049784)
Again, they are already paying the equivalent of roughly $23,000 pcm per kid. How much more money do you need to supply $60 beds and basic sanitary facilities?

Apparently alot when you consider the cost it takes to build and maintain each of these facilities which are not equipped to handle this many people.

Hands July 30th, 2019 2:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10049791)
Except these border camps are not for those overstaying their VISAs, they are for those who have been picked up crossing the border illegally, a rather massive difference. Are you suggesting that if a Hispanic person were to overstay his or her VISA they would be put into a border camp, while a French or British citizen would not? If so where is your proof that is happening?

Yes, they absolutely would be detained awaiting deportation. ICE operates more than just a few border camps. Most people in detention under ICE are not at bordercamps.


Quote:

You can seek asylum by applying for it at a port of entry, in which case the person will stay in Mexico until their case is processed. Entering the US by illegally crossing the border however is still a crime, it does not matter if they are trying to seek asylum or not.
https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum

You can apply for asylum after crossing the border. So it does matter. That's how the law works.


Quote:

They are completely relevant as your argument is, and I quote: It's entirely politically motivated. Trump has ran his entire campaign on the "Mexican Terror" and these camps are a part of it.

If these camps are part of US policy before Trump became President, to deal with a massive wave of migrants, then how can these camps be politically motivated by Trump?
Because, as explained to you previously, Trump has increased the scope of both ICE and has ran an entire campaign on demonizing minorities, particularly Mexicans, and creating a culture of fear. For Obama, ICE was an ugly secret. For Trump its a political tool of propaganda.


Quote:

Proof please.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/01/540903038/u-s-citizen-held-by-immigration-for-3-years-denied-compensation-by-appeals-court

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/402725-ice-detained-us-citizen-for-almost-two-years







Quote:

So wait are they concentration camps or are they processing camps for asylum cases?
Concentration camps.



Quote:

Again I ask, have you any proof that VISA overstays are being sent to camps meant to process people who illegally cross the border, and not the normal prison system?
You seem to misunderstand, the conditions in any of ICE's detention centers are poor, not simply the border ones.


Quote:

If they have the money then why did Congress just a few weeks ago have to approve billions more?
Because children are actively dying and the US must be seen to be doing something to address this.



Quote:

You seem to have this insider knowledge of how quickly a government agent can go through the system to check the credentials of the hundreds of people apprehended each day. You mind providing proof as to where you got this information?

https://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnv.htm



companies can literally do it online it's that easy.


https://www.ancestry.co.uk/cs/us/uk-birth-records?kw=birth+records&pgrid=26359860310&ptaid=kwd-15296011&s_kwcid=find+birth+records&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKDg7Akwbcq5T76y6ihDk9E5UlR9I-rNexceafv4Znvvi-m19RssUdhoCQ9wQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&o_xid=59287&o_lid=59287&o_sch=Paid+Search+Non+Brand



Hell, regular people can check a birth certificate out. These are things that are commonly recorded.


Quote:

So, you have proof they are stopping people purely based on race? That seems like a racial profiling lawsuit in the making and not based on any proof what so ever.
https://splinternews.com/u-s-man-is-suing-after-ice-holds-him-in-jail-for-3-wee-1793927348


Funny how none of these are ever coming from "John Smith" huh?



Quote:

Mind you Francisco Erwin Galicia was stopped at a border patrol check point in Falfurrias, Texas, not far from the Mexican border, check points that from personal experience I can tell you, they stop every car, no matter the skin color of the driver.
How many white Americans have been detained for three weeks without access to a phone call and had their lawyers ignored when they present legal documentation that clears their client?


I don't think anecdotal evidence is acceptable by community standards as proof, but I can tell you that I have never once had any border agent demand my passport or any other form of ID unless I was at an airport. When we travel for work, it's only ever the engies who aren't white who get stopped and questioned, even though we're all foreign.


Quote:

Apparently alot when you consider the cost it takes to build and maintain each of these facilities which are not equipped to handle this many people.
You'd be surprised how little tents and chickenwire costs. But for context, the average cost to house a single prisoner in the US per year ranges between $23,000 - $60,000 and they have better amnesties than these kids have who cost the taxpayer the equivalent of $276,000 per year per kid. So whatever way you spin it, there is no justification for what is happening and the UN human rights chief agrees. The UN is a legitimate source in your eyes on other topics, particularly the treatment of prisoners in another country, so I hope you treat it with the same weight when applied to the detention of children in the United States



https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/07/1041991

EnglishALT July 30th, 2019 3:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
Yes, they absolutely would be detained awaiting deportation. ICE operates more than just a few border camps. Most people in detention under ICE are not at bordercamps.

Of course, so how can you make the comparison that VISA overstays would be detained at border camps meant to process those who have just entered illegally? Especially when VISA overstays have already been background checked and screened, while those crossing the border have not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum

You can apply for asylum after crossing the border. So it does matter. That's how the law works.

I never said you couldn't, however applying for asylum does not negate the crime of crossing the border illegally. Again if they wish they can apply at a port of entry and wait in Mexico as thousands of others are doing.

https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1911-8-usc-1325-unlawful-entry-failure-depart-fleeing-immigration

That's how the law works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
Because, as explained to you previously, Trump has increased the scope of both ICE and has ran an entire campaign on demonizing minorities, particularly Mexicans, and creating a culture of fear. For Obama, ICE was an ugly secret. For Trump its a political tool of propaganda.

So Trump is causing the record numbers of migrants to flood the border not seen in over a decade? Is he using magical voodoo powers for this? Mind control perhaps? Or how about we both acknowledge that it is US policy during both the previous and current administration to use camps when there is a flood of migrants illegally crossing, and this has nothing to do with demonizing minorities.

Both of which are miscarriages of justice, and thankfully they are getting money from their ordeal. However it seems neither men were detained in these so camps, so I don't see how it is relevant to the current discussion, unless you are saying that people will be kept in these conditions for years, of which I don't think either of these articles rise to the burden of proof of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
You seem to misunderstand, the conditions in any of ICE's detention centers are poor, not simply the border ones.

Proof please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
Because children are actively dying and the US must be seen to be doing something to address this.

Which ones? Provide some context.

Yes, I am sure the Government uses something like Ancestory.com when trying to go through the bureaucratic paperwork of making sure their IDs are proper. I take it you do not have any proper time frame on how long it takes for a Government official to check this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
https://splinternews.com/u-s-man-is-suing-after-ice-holds-him-in-jail-for-3-wee-1793927348

Funny how none of these are ever coming from "John Smith" huh?

I'll forgo arguing the bias of the link. However again I note you have not provided any proof of actual racial profiling, merely three stories out of the millions of people ICE deals with each year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
How many white Americans have been detained for three weeks without access to a phone call and had their lawyers ignored when they present legal documentation that clears their client?


I don't think anecdotal evidence is acceptable by community standards as proof, but I can tell you that I have never once had any border agent demand my passport or any other form of ID unless I was at an airport. When we travel for work, it's only ever the engies who aren't white who get stopped and questioned, even though we're all foreign.

How many times have you crossed the US/Mexico border?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049821)
You'd be surprised how little tents and chickenwire costs. But for context, the average cost to house a single prisoner in the US per year ranges between $23,000 - $60,000 and they have better amnesties than these kids have who cost the taxpayer the equivalent of $276,000 per year per kid. So whatever way you spin it, there is no justification for what is happening and the UN human rights chief agrees. The UN is a legitimate source in your eyes on other topics, particularly the treatment of prisoners in another country, so I hope you treat it with the same weight when applied to the detention of children in the United States

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/07/1041991

Chicken wire and tents? Do you realize how hot it gets on the southern border of the United States?

Also note, that a single prisoner is housed in a Jail that has already been constructed, the US, was not ready for such an epic flood of migration, and is now forced with the task of converting facilities as quickly as possible that were not designed to hold people, into holding facilities.

Hands July 30th, 2019 4:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10049827)
Of course, so how can you make the comparison that VISA overstays would be detained at border camps meant to process those who have just entered illegally? Especially when VISA overstays have already been background checked and screened, while those crossing the border have not.

Only, if you're from any number of countries then you do not have to face any checks. I can be in the US for 90 days without a proper visa, for instance, because I'm British.


Quote:

I never said you couldn't, however applying for asylum does not negate the crime of crossing the border illegally. Again if they wish they can apply at a port of entry and wait in Mexico as thousands of others are doing.

https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1911-8-usc-1325-unlawful-entry-failure-depart-fleeing-immigration

That's how the law works.

https://www.rescue-uk.org/article/it-legal-cross-us-border-seek-asylum



Quote:

So Trump is causing the record numbers of migrants to flood the border not seen in over a decade? Is he using magical voodoo powers for this? Mind control perhaps? Or how about we both acknowledge that it is US policy during both the previous and current administration to use camps when there is a flood of migrants illegally crossing, and this has nothing to do with demonizing minorities.

Actually, immigration to the US is at a 40 year low.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44319094

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html

Even illegal crossings are at a relative low

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html


So the myth of the great border floods is entirely Trump's fault, yes, because he made it up.


The only thing we have seen an increase of is children, because full families are now fleeing violence and poverty and not just young men like years gone by. Overall numbers are down.




Quote:

Both of which are miscarriages of justice, and thankfully they are getting money from their ordeal. However it seems neither men were detained in these so camps, so I don't see how it is relevant to the current discussion, unless you are saying that people will be kept in these conditions for years, of which I don't think either of these articles rise to the burden of proof of that.
Because we are talking, again like I have now highlighted several times, about a wider immigration issue than just the bordercamps, you've literally replied just below and just above to comments I made about ICE detention facilities as a whole. It's also relevant because it highlights that ICE are literally targeting minorities and illegally detaining US citizens.



Quote:

Proof please.
Just for clarification, you replied to my comment about other ICE facilities here, when just above you said we were not talking about those. For clarity's sake I'd like to use this moment to say we are in fact talking about those and I'll assume going forward you are aware of that.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/immigration-detention-conditions

https://www.justia.com/immigration/deportation-removal/detention-by-ice/

ICE raids aren't happening on the border, they're happening in towns and cities. ICE doesn't just arrest kids for crossing the border and the issue of their behavior far exceeds just the kid camps.


Quote:

Which ones? Provide some context.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/16-year-old-unaccompanied-migrant-boy-dies-while-u-s-n1000821

https://www.theroot.com/u-s-government-admits-another-migrant-child-died-under-1834976658

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/migrant-girl-from-guatemala-who-died-in-us-custody-had-infection-autopsy-finds/

Due to the dreadful conditions, illness is running rampant, children are left malnourished and at risk. Children, not criminals, not adults, children.



Quote:

Yes, I am sure the Government uses something like Ancestory.com when trying to go through the bureaucratic paperwork of making sure their IDs are proper. I take it you do not have any proper time frame on how long it takes for a Government official to check this?

The Govt absolutely doesn't use Ancestory.com, but my point is if Joe Average can find a legit birth certificate in 15 minutes it shouldn't take law enforcement three weeks of ignoring said documents being presented to them almost daily. Did you overlook the easy to use govt provided SSN checker?


Quote:

I'll forgo arguing the bias of the link. However again I note you have not provided any proof of actual racial profiling, merely three stories out of the millions of people ICE deals with each year.
source please on ICE dealing with "millions" per year, but here's some more

https://www.gq.com/story/border-patrol-detained-9-year-old-american-girl

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/04/born-philadelphia-us-citizen-says-he-was-held-deportation-jamaica-ices-request/?utm_term=.bca1cd1505a9

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/opinion/ice-raids.html


You might start to see a pattern with all of these detained people, wrongly or (by law anyway) rightfully. They all share a very common trait. None of them are white.


Quote:

How many times have you crossed the US/Mexico border?
Could be once, could be one hundred times. It isn't relevant to anything we're discussing outside of you trying to defend the illegal detention and denial of rights to a US citizen based on his ethnicity. And that's what it is, because the initial arrest could have been a cock up, sure, but the three weeks of denying him his phone call, basic sanitary rights, ignoring evidence and ghosting his lawyer was nothing short of completely illegal. You know, unlike the young man himself.

Quote:

Chicken wire and tents? Do you realize how hot it gets on the southern border of the United States?
https://nypost.com/2018/06/18/how-children-live-inside-cramped-immigration-detention-centers/

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/jul/08/facts-behind-detention-immigrants/

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/06/07/predicting-even-more-horrifying-conditions-historical-journalist-describes-parallels


I mean, I don't know what else you call the items photographed here.

Quote:

Also note, that a single prisoner is housed in a Jail that has already been constructed, the US, was not ready for such an epic flood of migration, and is now forced with the task of converting facilities as quickly as possible that were not designed to hold people, into holding facilities.
Most of these kids are in facilities that were already constructed, for very short term housing of individuals, not families and not hundreds of children. But we can get an aircraft hanger up in under two weeks for a lot less than the budget ICE now have. It's not an excuse.

EnglishALT July 30th, 2019 6:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)
Only, if you're from any number of countries then you do not have to face any checks. I can be in the US for 90 days without a proper visa, for instance, because I'm British.

Yes the US also have a VISA waver program with most first world countries, however that does not mean their passport ( Of which they would have to had get a background check in their home country ) and information is not taken down and identified inside the ESTA system when they arrive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)

No where in the article does it say that crossing the border illegally negate the crime of entering illegally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)
Actually, immigration to the US is at a 40 year low.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44319094

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html

Even illegal crossings are at a relative low

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html


So the myth of the great border floods is entirely Trump's fault, yes, because he made it up.


The only thing we have seen an increase of is children, because full families are now fleeing violence and poverty and not just young men like years gone by. Overall numbers are down.

It helps to use articles less than a year old, the one current article you have from the BBC says this and I note:

The decline follows a record number of apprehensions between ports of entry in May - the highest in over a decade.

It's impossible to say for certain, but US Border Patrol says it has made 688,375 southwest border apprehensions since October 2018. The previous US fiscal year there were 303,916, according to US Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

The number fell dramatically in President Trump's first year but rose again last year.

The number of migrants apprehended at the border surged in May to the highest level since 2006, with 132,887 detained - including 11,507 unaccompanied children. It was the first time that detentions had exceeded 100,000 since April 2007.


Here are some more current articles.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/february-marked-12-year-high-for-illegal-immigration-76-000-encountered-at-southern-border

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/us/border-crossing-increase.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/record-number-undocumented-immigrants-flooded-southern-border-may-n1014186


Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)
Just for clarification, you replied to my comment about other ICE facilities here, when just above you said we were not talking about those. For clarity's sake I'd like to use this moment to say we are in fact talking about those and I'll assume going forward you are aware of that.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/immigration-detention-conditions

https://www.justia.com/immigration/deportation-removal/detention-by-ice/

ICE raids aren't happening on the border, they're happening in towns and cities. ICE doesn't just arrest kids for crossing the border and the issue of their behavior far exceeds just the kid camps.

I am well aware that ICE raids are happening all across the US. However, and I may be missing it, I do not see in either of those articles information showing the detention centers away from the border are anywhere comparable.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)

Well lets break this down.

1st: From a quick search, there is still no information as to why the child died, from the original reporting of the Buzzfeed article he was brought in on April 20th to the Brownsville shelter, the next morning he began showing symptoms, and was treated at a hospital, he got worse the next day and eventually died. So far there is no information on what caused his death, and how long he was in ICE custody before arriving at the shelter. Considering the rampant diseases people are showing up with when claiming asylum it is rather possible he was sick before he even came into contact with ICE.

2nd: The girl had congenital heart defects, and died after complications from surgery, I don't see how you can blame ICE for that.

3rd: The father signed a form saying the girl was in good health, although its possible that he had no idea what the form said. That being said she contracted the illness before meeting with border patrol and was rushed to the hospital when her fever was discovered.

None of these seem to be the fault of ICE or Border Patrol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)
The Govt absolutely doesn't use Ancestory.com, but my point is if Joe Average can find a legit birth certificate in 15 minutes it shouldn't take law enforcement three weeks of ignoring said documents being presented to them almost daily. Did you overlook the easy to use govt provided SSN checker?

The Government is faced with thousands of people arriving each day, and has to do an exhaustive search to make sure that everything is not fake, it shouldn't take three weeks we agree, but I am not surprised there is a backlog either.

Earlier this year the Border Patrol was on pace to capture over 1 million people, illegally crossing. Combine that with those that are staying in Mexico while requesting asylum, along with those captured in ICE raids inside of the US, and the number easily surpasses 1 million.

https://twitter.com/DHSgov/status/1103318241538179072

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)
You might start to see a pattern with all of these detained people, wrongly or (by law anyway) rightfully. They all share a very common trait. None of them are white.

Your third article plainly states: Ms. Nuetzi is a cheerful white woman who spent her childhood in Ocala, Fla., and has been an elementary school secretary in Gainesville for 20 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)
Could be once, could be one hundred times. It isn't relevant to anything we're discussing outside of you trying to defend the illegal detention and denial of rights to a US citizen based on his ethnicity. And that's what it is, because the initial arrest could have been a cock up, sure, but the three weeks of denying him his phone call, basic sanitary rights, ignoring evidence and ghosting his lawyer was nothing short of completely illegal. You know, unlike the young man himself.

I agree, but I think we can also agree that with crossings at a ten year high, and the border patrol completely overwhelmed, that a person can be lost a bit in the bureaucracy.

Just to remain clear here, we are talking about massive tent complexes, that stretch the length of football fields if not more, and require equally massive AC, lighting, etc to maintain? Or are you speaking of small little tents similar to the cheap tent city set up in Arizona.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/12/557302259/sheriff-joe-arpaios-infamous-tent-city-jail-closes

One is rather costly to keep up and maintain, he other isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10049842)
Most of these kids are in facilities that were already constructed, for very short term housing of individuals, not families and not hundreds of children. But we can get an aircraft hanger up in under two weeks for a lot less than the budget ICE now have. It's not an excuse.

ICE is apparently trying to get everything and anything up and running to properly care for the kids, including converting old Wal Marts to schools.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/us/family-separation-migrant-children-detention.html

http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/072919_phx_migrants/former-phoenix-elementary-school-transformed-into-migrant-shelter/

Roxas August 1st, 2019 8:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10049036)
Okay how does that change the facts on the ground that we are experiencing a massive swell of people crossing not seen in a decade, or that the border patrol is saying that they are at a breaking point?

I agree, it is evil, and we need to either change the laws so that family's can stay together in a facility indefinitely, or provide better facilities to handle the current flood crossing.

Guess what - people are coming over in "massive swells" because they are refugees.

"So that family's can stay together in a facility indefinitely" Yeah let's just lock up migrant refugee families forever because they're migrant refugees.

EnglishALT August 1st, 2019 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxas (Post 10051081)
Guess what - people are coming over in "massive swells" because they are refugees.

Problem is it depends on what kind of refugees they are, if they are economic refugees, as in they are coming for work, then they do not get asylum status.

Quote:

"So that family's can stay together in a facility indefinitely" Yeah let's just lock up migrant refugee families forever because they're migrant refugees.
What alternative is there? Close to 90 percent are not showing up for their court date.

Taste of Tea August 4th, 2019 11:09 AM

If the refugees/migrants don't want to be held at those facilities (I refuse to call them concentration camps because that's not what they are no matter how the Left tries to spin it), then perhaps they shouldn't approach the US border to begin with. I mean at this point they can't be oblivious to how they'll be treated if they try to cross into the US illegally, so I don't understand why they're putting themselves at risk. I also think it's silly for refugees/migrants to think that the US should be responsible for taking them in, as if the US is the source of all of their problems to begin with.

Roxas August 4th, 2019 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taste of Tea (Post 10052239)
If the refugees/migrants don't want to be held at those facilities (I refuse to call them concentration camps because that's not what they are no matter how the Left tries to spin it), then perhaps they shouldn't approach the US border to begin with. I mean at this point they can't be oblivious to how they'll be treated if they try to cross into the US illegally, so I don't understand why they're putting themselves at risk. I also think it's silly for refugees/migrants to think that the US should be responsible for taking them in, as if the US is the source of all of their problems to begin with.

Okay, then what alternative do refugees have, really?

In other countries, refugees are not held in border patrol facilities.

Her August 4th, 2019 1:55 PM

fwiw Australia does so as well, but they’re not exactly the country to praise on migration issues

EnglishALT August 4th, 2019 3:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxas (Post 10052252)
Okay, then what alternative do refugees have, really?

In other countries, refugees are not held in border patrol facilities.

Almost every country holds refugees in border facilities for security reasons. Japan for example has had a problem with a refugee committing suicide because of the conditions he faced in his facility.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1HK18Z

Taste of Tea August 6th, 2019 9:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxas (Post 10052252)
Okay, then what alternative do refugees have, really?

In the case of refugees from Latin America, I don't understand why they don't just migrate to other Latin American countries that neighbor their country of origin? I mean you'd think that they'd feel more comfortable in countries where Spanish is the most prominent language and the culture is more similar to what they're accustomed to, yet they'd rather travel hundreds of miles north through harsh terrain just to get to the United States where they'll face a harder time getting in... ? I just don't get it.

I also dislike the fact that Mexico just lets migrant caravans waltz right through their country without doing anything about it. They obviously have no intention of providing for the refugees themselves for an extended period of time; they'd just rather let them approach the U.S. border and hand over the problem to the United States.

Roxas August 6th, 2019 1:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10052346)
Almost every country holds refugees in border facilities for security reasons. Japan for example has had a problem with a refugee committing suicide because of the conditions he faced in his facility.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1HK18Z

That doesn't mean having border facilities is a good thing. The fact that anyone is committing suicide out of fear of border facility conditions is dreadful to be honest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taste of Tea (Post 10053382)
In the case of refugees from Latin America, I don't understand why they don't just migrate to other Latin American countries that neighbor their country of origin? I mean you'd think that they'd feel more comfortable in countries where Spanish is the most prominent language and the culture is more similar to what they're accustomed to, yet they'd rather travel hundreds of miles north through harsh terrain just to get to the United States where they'll face a harder time getting in... ? I just don't get it.

I also dislike the fact that Mexico just lets migrant caravans waltz right through their country without doing anything about it. They obviously have no intention of providing for the refugees themselves for an extended period of time; they'd just rather let them approach the U.S. border and hand over the problem to the United States.

Hand the problem over? Who exactly is the problem? Migrants?

Not going to accuse you of anything but this sounds awfully familiar to another historical "problem" group who were eventually, you know, victims of genocide. Because they were labeled a problem, instead of being treated as if they were, I dunno, people in need.

The reason they come to USA instead of another country is simply that the conditions here are better, provided you can eventually work towards citizenship and find a place to live. The other latin american countries they have the "option" of going to clearly aren't that great, otherwise they'd be fleeing there. Perhaps some of them do, but the United States is clearly a popular option because it's the best option, for most. Which is unfortunate, because instead of creating an actual program that helps people attain citizenship and become active members of society, we throw them in the border facility and treat them like criminals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Her (Post 10052319)
fwiw Australia does so as well, but they’re not exactly the country to praise on migration issues

I suppose I should've clarified, most countries with higher standards of living and happiness than the united states don't hold migrants in border camps. Which, admittedly, narrows the list down to a few countries up in the nordic area. It's not a world-encompassing practice, though. Not all third world countries do that either.

Also, I'm basing this off of the conditions of US camps. Can't name too many countries that are on this level of fash just yet, but there are a few that stick out. Australia's colonizers handled its native population and its migrants horribly all throughout history, same with United States, same with etc etc.

It almost seems as if countries infiltrated by colonizers who have run out the natives are generally not good at handling migrants.

EnglishALT August 6th, 2019 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxas (Post 10053515)
That doesn't mean having border facilities is a good thing. The fact that anyone is committing suicide out of fear of border facility conditions is dreadful to be honest.

I will ask you the exact question as I asked Maedar, what is the alternative? A country's duty is to it's own citizenry, not to migrants, how would you handle the security concerns and tracking of migrants if you do not have border facilities?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxas (Post 10053515)
Hand the problem over? Who exactly is the problem? Migrants?

Not going to accuse you of anything but this sounds awfully familiar to another historical "problem" group who were eventually, you know, victims of genocide. Because they were labeled a problem, instead of being treated as if they were, I dunno, people in need.

Just to note, in Germany this week a migrant from Africa ended up pushing an 8 year old boy and his mother in front of a train, the mother survived the boy did not.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190729-boy-8-dies-after-being-pushed-front-german-train

You can find a multitude of stories like this all across Europe and America when it comes to illegal immigration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxas (Post 10053515)
The reason they come to USA instead of another country is simply that the conditions here are better, provided you can eventually work towards citizenship and find a place to live. The other latin american countries they have the "option" of going to clearly aren't that great, otherwise they'd be fleeing there. Perhaps some of them do, but the United States is clearly a popular option because it's the best option, for most. Which is unfortunate, because instead of creating an actual program that helps people attain citizenship and become active members of society, we throw them in the border facility and treat them like criminals.

Sorry but you do not get to pick and choose, if you are fleeing violence you go to the next safest place, you do not get to go to the "best option". The minute you reach a country that does not have the problems you are fleeing, you need to stay or your cries of asylum ring hollow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxas (Post 10053515)
I suppose I should've clarified, most countries with higher standards of living and happiness than the united states don't hold migrants in border camps. Which, admittedly, narrows the list down to a few countries up in the nordic area. It's not a world-encompassing practice, though. Not all third world countries do that either.

Also, I'm basing this off of the conditions of US camps. Can't name too many countries that are on this level of fash just yet, but there are a few that stick out. Australia's colonizers handled its native population and its migrants horribly all throughout history, same with United States, same with etc etc.

It almost seems as if countries infiltrated by colonizers who have run out the natives are generally not good at handling migrants.

Japan and many other first world Asian countries would beg to differ, hell America has laxer standards for migration than Japan does! So is Japan a fascist country?

gimmepie August 7th, 2019 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10053607)
Just to note, in Germany this week a migrant from Africa ended up pushing an 8 year old boy and his mother in front of a train, the mother survived the boy did not.

You can find even more stories about non-immigrants doing that or worse. Don't cherry pick when the vast majority don't commit a single crime beyond the original immigration, especially not violent crime. I've shown you the statistics before, immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are less likely to commit crimes because of the fear of deportation.

Not that I'm against temporary detention, as I explained earlier. I just think this particular argument is extremely disingenuous. If you're anti-immigration, that's on you, but don't use falsities or disingenuous arguments to justify your view.

EnglishALT August 7th, 2019 1:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 10053703)
You can find even more stories about non-immigrants doing that or worse. Don't cherry pick when the vast majority don't commit a single crime beyond the original immigration, especially not violent crime. I've shown you the statistics before, immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are less likely to commit crimes because of the fear of deportation.

Not that I'm against temporary detention, as I explained earlier. I just think this particular argument is extremely disingenuous. If you're anti-immigration, that's on you, butter don't use falsities or disingenuous arguments to justify your view.

If you want we can go into those statistics however it does not address my overall point. Specifically that a government’s duty is to the protection of its citizens above all else. The government must be sure that the people they are letting in won’t harm their citizens or they must refuse to let them in. A citizen committing a crime is on the citizen, an immigrant committing a crime is not only on the immigrant but also brings up the question as to why the government did not see the warning signs when they were let in.

Sothis August 9th, 2019 6:54 PM

Even if you don't like the use of the word concentration camp, you have to admit that the conditions these people are in are appalling. Testimonies from people who were forced into these places say enough, do they not? And I don't think they should be forced in indefinitely, because then it is more of a prison don't you think?
And especially with ICE actually going around to peoples houses to take them away? It's like a dystopian story but it's happening. If someone does not have their proper papers why not just help them get them and let them stay home instead of dragging them away? Especially if they have a job and family.

And the crossings are happening more because of how the economy is, it really isn't anyones fault. Venezuela is in a crisis, for one, and Honduras is the most dangerous country in the Americas IIRC.


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