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professor plum November 25th, 2019 2:13 PM

Abortion
 
We haven't had an abortion debate in a good minute! Please be respectful, and no mukposting pls.

To start, here are a few basic questions -
What are your overall views on abortion?
Should a country's government be allowed to make it legal or illegal?
Do you think the Plan B / Morning After pill is a form of abortion as well?

If you're pro-choice, what limitations (if any) do you think should be put on abortion? Do you believe they should only be allowed in extreme circumstances, such as rape / incest? How late in the pregnancy should an abortion be allowed?
If you're against abortion, why? Is it for religious reasons? Are you against abortion even in extreme circumstances (named above), or if the pregnancy risks the mother's life? Do you support the idea of free birth control to help prevent pregnancies?

Miss Wendighost November 25th, 2019 2:38 PM

Surprising, this thread hasn't fallen into absolute chaos yet.

In all seriousness though, I'm kind of on the position of pro-life for myself (except in extreme situations) and pro-choice for others. To put it simply, I wouldn't really get an abortion myself unless there are some extreme situations, but for others, I would say that access should be restricted after 20 weeks (when the fetus is viable) (not sure if that is the correct timeframe for viability). On the topic of birth control, I would say that it wouldn't really count as an abortion since most of the time, it's a precaution to prevent a pregnancy where an abortion is ending a pregnancy in progress.

Shiva2932 November 25th, 2019 2:46 PM

I am absolutely pro-choice, the government shouldn't have any sort of sovereignty over a person's body or their access to care. Birth control should absolutely be free, it doesn't only prevent pregnancy and can help regulate and balance hormones for a lot of people. I don't see plan B or the morning after pill as abortion because there is no baby, it's literally just an egg at that point.

Nah November 25th, 2019 3:21 PM

I’m pro-choice, and the only restriction I care for is not allowing abortion in the 3rd trimester, but with an exception for medical emergencies and such.

The thing with banning abortion is that banning it won’t stop it from happening. Murder and theft have been illegal for thousands of years, yet they still occur every single year. Prohibition in the US didn’t go too well. People will simply engage in unsafe methods to abort instead since the safe methods are gone.

There are however things you can do to reduce the number of abortions that could ever need to be done. Support better sex education, provide universal, easy, and cheap access to contraceptives, improve the adoption and foster care system, give better maternity leave, etc. Yet a lot of lawmakers who are anti-abortion are not that interested in pursuing any of these.

It’s better to have the option and not need it than to need it and not have it.

EnglishALT November 25th, 2019 3:43 PM

I waffle a bit between pro life and pro choice, I would say if push comes to shove I would say it should be capped at 3 months ( 12 weeks ) as getting into 5 months ( 20 weeks ) seems way to far along and gruesome.

I believe barring rape, that the father should have some consent in the situation regarding termination.

As for contraceptives I do not consider the day after pill to be abortion.

Ninetales November 25th, 2019 5:34 PM

I am pro-choice. I believe that women have the right to make decisions regarding their own bodies. However, I personally view abortion as immoral and would only get one myself unless it was absolutely necessary (if my life was at risk, for instance). Although, just because I am uncomfortable with abortion doesn't mean that I need to impose those views on other people.

Furthermore, abortions will happen regardless if they are legal or not. Banning them entirely puts women at risk as they may seek other potentially dangerous options to terminate their pregnancy.

Sothis November 25th, 2019 8:52 PM

As with any medical procedure, it should be thoroughly discussed in a professional manner between doctor and patient, so that the patient may make the best choice. Basically I am pro choice and I don't think its anyone's business if a woman has an abortion.

moon November 25th, 2019 9:24 PM

There are literally thousands of people dying every day as it is, and in tragic immoral ways at that. I would rather ensure that every new human that is born is wanted and has as good a situation as possible, than force unhappy women to put more humans into the world. A man doesn't have a right to a baby that wasn't planned or wanted from the start, is my overall opinion. Especially not if fair prevention methods were used and an accidental pregnancy still happened. Certainly not old men in the government for religious reasons.

Hands November 26th, 2019 12:34 AM

I really take issue with the phrase "pro life" because a lot of these people also vote for politicians who completely screw over kids and young parents. A leading factor in modern abortion is financial stability. That contributed to me and a former partner having one. If you vote for people who continuously attack the welfare state, who continuously push to keep decent sex ed out of schools, who refuse to make birth control widely available and free then you ain't pro life, you're anti choice. There's no sanctity of life in the equation if your care for the kid ends the second they're born.

an illegible mess. November 26th, 2019 2:47 AM

i am fiercely pro choice. i think abortion should be allowed as an option until the third trimester (exceptions can be made if the birth of the child would cause life threatening harm to the baby or pregnant individual). i dont think the non-pregnant parent should have a say in what the pregnant person wants. and, of course, in the case of rape, abortion should always be an option. the rapists thought on the matter shouldnt even be asked.

all forms of birth control (including condoms) should be free.

there are too many unwanted children on this planet. too many that are born to impoverished parents that can barely afford to feed them and too many that are given away to already packed orphanages; some of them to never be adopted. it's sad. keep abortion legal and birth control free/affordable. i don't even know why this is a debate still.

Tsutarja November 26th, 2019 6:09 AM

For me, it's difficult to say if I am pro-life or pro-choice. Morally, I believe that abortions are wrong, but I'm not in a position to be the judge on why a woman would ever get one. However, I do believe that there are better alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, if someone is not able to parent a newborn. I can agree that abortion would be necessary if a woman was raped as well.

moon November 26th, 2019 8:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsutarja (Post 10093441)
For me, it's difficult to say if I am pro-life or pro-choice. Morally, I believe that abortions are wrong, but I'm not in a position to be the judge on why a woman would ever get one. However, I do believe that there are better alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, if someone is not able to parent a newborn. I can agree that abortion would be necessary if a woman was raped as well.

So you believe that even if two individuals used protection but got pregnant anyways, the pregnant person should morally have to carry the child to birth and part with it after, which could potentially be an even more traumatizing experience than having an early abortion?

Hyzenthlay November 26th, 2019 9:29 AM

On a personal and spiritual level, I disagree with abortion and am deeply saddened by it. I think everyone deserves a chance at life. However, I am pro-choice. I have no wish to impose my views on other women and think abortion should be their decision. Making this process illegal won't decrease unwanted pregnancies, so women will then have to resort to unsafe methods, bringing about even more trauma. Others have no right to make these decisions for us, especially considering the circumstances unique to every woman when she becomes pregnant. Who are we to judge her for her reasons?

Contraception needs to be affordable and accessible to everyone, and more effort should be put into supporting the people who must endure these traumatic, life-changing decisions.

Wavee November 26th, 2019 10:52 AM

Quote:

However, I do believe that there are better alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, if someone is not able to parent a newborn.
Quote:

I think everyone deserves a chance at life.
people shouldnt go around having babies that they cant raise for whatever reason it may be. shitty parents/being orphaned are both traumatic for children to experience, which really is not better than just not bringing even more children into the world. if a child is abused because theyre unwanted and “ruined their parents life”, is that really the better option than not having a chance at life for a fetus that is about as alive as a sperm cell?

Flowerchild November 26th, 2019 12:59 PM

Gentle reminder that it’s not just women who may experience unwanted pregnancies, trans men and other AFAB people also have a role in this discussion and are almost always excluded from it, either because of malice or just plain careless wording.

Like Hands, I think pro life is an extremely hypocritical phrase because of all the harm people who support that ideology are doing to actual living children. Such people are anti choice, not pro anything at all. So if you hadn’t guessed from reading this far, I’m pro choice.

gimmepie November 26th, 2019 1:04 PM

I have long been in the position where neither pro-life or pro-choice are very fond of how I feel about the subject. I think that there are absolutely circumstances - where lives are at risk among a few others - where at the very least it becomes reasonable to consider abortion a reasonable option. However, I think a lot of - arguably most - people on the pro-choice side of the debate are, for want of a better term, too abortion happy.

People who are not prepared to risk pregnancy shouldn't be engaging in activities likely to lead to pregnancy. If you voluntarily have sex, even with contraception, you're acknowledging that there is a risk of getting pregnant. Other living beings shouldn't have to die because you can't handle the results of your actions and there are other options available outside of abortion - although I agree that often these institutions need to be improved on and frankly I think a lot of the money spent campaigning for pro-life or pro-choice laws would be better spent improving those institutions.

It's a murky and complicated area, and I think it's probably hard to find the 100% correct way of doing things. Personally, I don't think abortion should be outright illegal, but I do think that it should be a lot more heavily regulated than the majority of the pro-choice side of things want. I also agree that a lot of the energy spent constantly debating this would be better spent on improving foster/orphanage/whatever your country does systems and reducing the likelihood of unwanted pregnancies by giving better access to contraceptives and providing better sex education.

Also, while I agree that the ultimate decision comes down to the person carrying the baby, I agree that the father should have a fair say in the choice. It takes two people to have a child, but it only takes one to raise it.

EnglishALT November 26th, 2019 3:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wavee (Post 10093586)
people shouldnt go around having babies that they cant raise for whatever reason it may be. shitty parents/being orphaned are both traumatic for children to experience, which really is not better than just not bringing even more children into the world. if a child is abused because theyre unwanted and “ruined their parents life”, is that really the better option than not having a chance at life for a fetus that is about as alive as a sperm cell?

While I don’t have any statistics it strikes me that any child in such a situation would prefer to be alive than to have been violently dismembered and sucked out of the womb.

Maybe there is a study based on children’s feelings toward not having been born/current situation in an orphanage or something.

Flowerchild November 26th, 2019 3:12 PM

Embryos are not children.

EnglishALT November 26th, 2019 3:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainbow (Post 10093683)
Embryos are not children.

Okay, that is debatable, but does not invalidate the question of a child that has been born into a mukty situation would prefer to be alive than to be aborted. Especially if such a manner would involve dismemberment through vacuum hose. Or to be born half way and then have their skull punctured and compressed so that they can be removed the rest of the way.

Her November 26th, 2019 4:44 PM

abortion is a matter of trading one prospective life (or lives, possibly) for the expected prosperity, or at least current status, of the parent/s and their belief to have a child on their own terms. it is not easy. it can scar you. regrets are part of the process for most, regardless of the decision. i’m not one of the pro-choice crowd that try to downplay the idea that the embryo is a life, as the ‘clump of cells’ argument decries why it is such an emotive decision to begin with. it is a clump of cells, but it has the likelihood of being the centre of your life. however, i consider the well-being and autonomy of those outside the womb to take higher priority than a life that has not exited the womb. the gift of life is a wonderful thing - and while many wonderful people have come out of unwanted situations, and just as many planned pregnancies can create misery and suffering, i do not consider the possibility of prosperity for the embryo to outweigh the autonomy of those responsible for its creation.

CiCi November 26th, 2019 7:21 PM

I've got an interesting physiology that makes this debate a bit tougher. I can't have any form of female birth control outside of the expensive and intrusive tubal ligation (which doctors typically won't perform on a childless woman my age anyway). All female birth control otherwise involves hormones which can help regulate a lot of women. For me, however, the hormones make me go, for lack of a better word, insane. Crying, lots of screaming, mental breakdowns, reckless behavior, and everything in between; I've been on several different kinds of birth control and I couldn't handle any of them. Pills, shots, insertions... They all made me go crazy and lose my mind. It felt like I was bipolar or psychotic. And it was horrifying because for a while I thought I was just going insane and didn't relate it to my birth control.

I tried them for months to "get my body used to it" and all it really did was screw me over harder. After a year of birth control, I found that I just couldn't do it. And I'm too afraid of those psychotic breaks to even fathom trying birth control again any time soon. So my only option is condoms. Which are reliable about 70% of the time, depending on the condom. I'm lucky that my fiancée and I have found ways that work for us but I have to wonder how many other women suffer through this as well. Because I love sex and I'm sure other women do, too, but then we have risk pregnancies because of our problems with all this hormonal birth control.

That being said, I would get an abortion if I found out I was pregnant. I simply cannot, with all my anxiety and depression issues, carry a child that would mess with my hormones. So in that way, I am pro-choice. But I'm also not pro-abortion, either. If you're going to get an abortion, you should do it as early as possible. After 20 weeks, the fetus is, debatably in some circles, viable and you often have to start taking limbs off of forming embryos in order to perform an abortion. Whether or not this equates to sentience is yet to be fully tested.

I think the morning after pill should be cheaper (if not free). I've seen them at the store -- where I live, one single pill was 60 USD. That's ridiculous. (And no I don't count it as an abortion). Contraception should never be so damn expensive. There's too much poverty and bullshit in the world for someone to feel forced to carry a kid because they have no other option. Better sexual education is a must. Not just "this is a penis, this is a vagina, they make babies", either. We need to teach kids what having a child entails, not just how to go about doing it. It clearly prevents nothing the way we're teaching it now. Teen pregnancy is just as prevalent (if not more so) than ever.

I wish pro-lifers would be a little more actually pro-life, rather than just anti-abortion. Someone up above (can't remember who since there were so many comments I read through) mentioned how kids and the welfare state get screwed pretty hard by the same people who oppose abortion; and it's true, and a messed up situation. Kids shouldn't have to suffer at the hands of people who only do things because of religious obligation rather than their own true morality.

There's also a debate on whether or not fathers should have a say in abortions. This is very grey for me because women are the ones that have to go through the pregnancy and the birth, whereas dads get to sit by and wait. I think it's pretty messed up to force a woman who has no desire to be pregnant to go through with it anyway because he disagrees with the abortion, but it's also messed up to abort a baby against a father's wishes. It comes down to sex ed, and learning not to impregnate someone who has no desire to start a family with you. Basically, don't have sex with just anyone because you're horny and don't cum inside of your female partner without their full consent and understanding that they probably will get pregnant.

It's a pretty nasty situation all around and I wish people would learn to be more responsible, especially when it comes to picking partners. If you impregnate your girlfriend of 4 months and she gets an abortion and you're mad about that, you should've made better choices. Same with getting pregnant by your on-again off-again boyfriend and carrying it to term despite that he doesn't want to become a father; you can't force him to be one; clearly the people involved should've made better choices.

Anyway, that's my response that's far too long so no one will read it, thank you for coming to my TED-Rant.

moon November 26th, 2019 9:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainbow (Post 10093632)
Gentle reminder that it’s not just women who may experience unwanted pregnancies, trans men and other AFAB people also have a role in this discussion and are almost always excluded from it, either because of malice or just plain careless wording.

Like Hands, I think pro life is an extremely hypocritical phrase because of all the harm people who support that ideology are doing to actual living children. Such people are anti choice, not pro anything at all. So if you hadn’t guessed from reading this far, I’m pro choice.

I'm sure nobody here means to purposefully exclude such people. For the vast majority of people in the world, it's common that persons who were assigned female at birth and still consider themselves women are the pregnant part, and easier to say for them than saying "person with a vagina" or "person who is able to get pregnant". I hope nobody will take offense to the language chosen in this thread.

/tangent

Sothis November 26th, 2019 10:44 PM

It should be common knowledge that children are neglected and even abused in group homes or foster care, and that having to move between families all the time has strong social impacts on the child, only for them to be expected to be able to fully support themselves at 18. For this reason I think that contraceptives should be made more available and covered by the government because honestly I think not being born at all is better than being born into a life of abuse and misery. Believe me, I know.

Hands November 27th, 2019 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmepie (Post 10093635)
too abortion happy.

I'll tell you this plainly. I have never met a single person who had an abortion who was 'happy' about it or took the decision lightly. Your comment that people who aren't prepared to raise an unwanted child shouldn't practice safe sex is akin to saying people who get hit by cars should have thought about that before crossing the road. It's a non point.


Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10093680)
While I don’t have any statistics it strikes me that any child in such a situation would prefer to be alive than to have been violently dismembered and sucked out of the womb.

Maybe there is a study based on children’s feelings toward not having been born/current situation in an orphanage or something.


This is by far the most ridiculous thing you've ever contributed here.


https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/

https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/

the vast, vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester.

https://www.babycentre.co.uk/ims/2015/01/pregnancy-week-5-amniotic-sac_square-zoom-2.jpg.pagespeed.ce.nDcFCUNraG.jpg

Let's ask this small pile of cells if it wants to be removed with two pills or not shall we? Your horror story that you're painting is not representative of most abortions and is literally an outrageous statement that contributes nothing to the topic other than to coddle your own emotions. This is a serious debate about a serious topic. Treat it like it or take a hike.


https://www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-treatments/the-abortion-pill/


If most abortions happen before the 12th week, and the pill system is, without question, the preferred method within that timeframe then most people aren't violently cutting up a near fully developed screaming baby and vacuuming it out are they?


Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishALT (Post 10093686)
Okay, that is debatable, but does not invalidate the question of a child that has been born into a mukty situation would prefer to be alive than to be aborted. Especially if such a manner would involve dismemberment through vacuum hose. Or to be born half way and then have their skull punctured and compressed so that they can be removed the rest of the way.


https://cdn5.vectorstock.com/i/1000x1000/28/39/stages-human-embryonic-development-vector-16332839.jpg

At what point is it the exact same thing as a living, breathing baby?

gimmepie November 27th, 2019 6:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands (Post 10093840)
I'll tell you this plainly. I have never met a single person who had an abortion who was 'happy' about it or took the decision lightly. Your comment that people who aren't prepared to raise an unwanted child shouldn't practice safe sex is akin to saying people who get hit by cars should have thought about that before crossing the road. It's a non point.

Firstly, there is a reason I said "for want of a better term". Obviously nobody is jumping around, celebrating an abortion. You know exactly what I meant. Don't misrepresent my views.

Secondly, it's impossible to go anywhere without crossing a street. It's perfectly possible to get through life without screwing someone if you can't handle the results. I'm an extremely liberal person overall, but it always irks me that part of the expected liberal mindset is to ignore personal responsibility.

I am fully aware that getting an abortion is not an easy choice to make for most, I'm not going to hold a grudge against desperate people who have made that decision, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or support it.

Edit: Also, I want it noted that while I don't personally agree with Her's view on the matter, I think that's a pretty reasonable perspective to take.


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