Fanfiction Lounge

Redstar · Aug 27, 2009

Valentine said:
To quote the site:

Literary devices refers to specific aspects of literature, in the sense of its universal function as an art form which expresses ideas through language, which we can recognize, identify, interpret and/or analyze. ... Both literary elements and literary techniques can rightly be called literary devices.

It is not necessarily how you use a literary element but rather also the element itself.

Well obviously. If a literary device was defined strictly by use of technique, than there'd be no context... Both elements and techniques can "rightly be called literary devices" simply because they're both aspects of literary devices.

Valentine said:
As in, a literary technique is a part of a story that can be analyzed, period.

What? There's parts of a story that can't be analyzed?

Valentine said:
This could refer to the elements such as plot, character, et cetera (the definition of element), or it can refer to the style that the author is using (the definition of technique). Or, in clearer terms, the term "device" covers everything, not just one or the other or how one is used, which goes back to the argument I was making against your statement that techniques and devices are considered to be the same thing by everyone.

So, as per the bolded text, a literary device is exactly what I said it was?

Also, what's with you labeling this an argument? All I did was try to define something and ease some confusion, and you come back and argue it? Okay, fine, you can put in your thoughts because I welcome discussion, but if this is an argument to you please stop.

Valentine said:
In other words, you're looking at the definition of device here and assuming it's not actually referring to the definition for elements when it actually is.

Finally, no. I'm not assuming anything. I never said that literary device excluded elements or technique; I said that it was the application of both.

JX Valentine · Aug 27, 2009

Redstar said:
Both elements and techniques can "rightly be called literary devices" simply because they're both aspects of literary devices.

Thus, as I was saying with my earlier post, literary elements and techniques are devices. My first response to this conversation was saying that you were implying elements were separate from devices.

What? There's parts of a story that can't be analyzed?

Also my point. Devices are every part of the story because anything can be analyzed, including elements themselves.

So, as per the bolded text, a literary device is exactly what I said it was?

Uh, actually, you keep implying (or outright stating) that elements are separate from literary devices. I keep saying they aren't. Hence the argument.

Also, what's with you labeling this an argument?

Among the many definitions of the word "argument":

1. an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
2. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
3. a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.
4. an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.
(Source: This.)

I'm disagreeing with part of what you're saying. Therefore, it's an argument. There is no negative meaning to the term, and it's technically correct, considering that's what we've been doing for the past several posts.

Finally, no. I'm not assuming anything. I never said that literary device excluded elements or technique;

To quote your earlier post:

Now, the difference between literary elements and literary devices are how those elements are used.

Which states that you believe devices are separate from elements -- hence the term "the difference between."

Redstar · Aug 27, 2009

Valentine said:
Also my point. Devices are every part of the story because anything can be analyzed, including elements themselves.

If every part of a story can be analyzed, then I don't see how devices are defined by being able to be analyzed.

Valentine said:
Uh, actually, you keep implying (or outright stating) that elements are separate from literary devices. I keep saying they aren't. Hence the argument.

The definition of an argument:

an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation

I'm disagreeing with part of what you're saying. Therefore, it's an argument. There is no negative meaning to the term, and it's technically correct, considering that's what we've been doing for the past several posts.

I'm fine with discussion, but all I did was try to explain something from my perspective... Then you come back and start debating it like it's some point of contention. You're fine to disagree with me, but I was dumbstruck to see this huge rebuttal. It's coming off very antagonistic.

Valentine said:
To quote your earlier post:

Now, the difference between literary elements and literary devices are how those elements are used.

Which states that you believe devices are separate from elements -- hence the term "the difference between."

Devices are different from elements. If they weren't, then there wouldn't be two separate terms. Literary devices, as can be defined all over, are the expression of literary elements. Literary elements are just that: elements. Pure, un-applied elements.

JX Valentine · Aug 27, 2009

Redstar said:
If every part of a story can be analyzed, then I don't see how devices are defined by being able to be analyzed.

It's also part of one source's definition.

I'm fine with discussion, but all I did was try to explain something from my perspective... Then you come back and start debating it like it's some point of contention.

Because, frankly, I'm repeating myself and clarifying the same points over and over again, and it seems like the conversation is trying to drift away from the initial point or you're trying to change what you originally said.

Also, to put it bluntly, I found that your current statements may or may not be well-founded, and I like prodding statements like that until they either make sense to me or are changed according to logic and/or provided evidence.

If it's the irritated tone you're questioning, however, it could either be that I'm too tired for my own good or the fact that I keep quirking a mental eyebrow over the things you say. Or, you know, it could just be the fact that I'm like this to everyone in the FFL.

Devices are different from elements.

The point was that devices is an umbrella term that also covers elements. Yes, elements are not necessarily the same, but they're not completely divorced from the concept of a device. Moreover, a device doesn't just cover how an element is handled. It also covers the element itself.

Redstar · Aug 27, 2009

Valentine said:
It's also part of one source's definition.

Literary devices refer to specific aspects of literature, in the sense of its universal function as an art form which expresses ideas through language, which we can recognize, identify, interpret and analyze. Literary devices collectively comprise the art form's components; the means by which authors create meaning through language, and by which readers gain understanding of and appreciation for their works. They also provide a conceptual framework for comparing individual literary works to others, both within and across genres. Both literary elements and literary techniques can rightly be called literary devices.

I've bolded the sections of your source's definition which express what I've been talking about. Literary devices take "specific aspects of literature" (namely elements), and "express ideas through language"/"create meaning through language". Basically, literary devices are the application of and expression of literary elements. Exactly what I said.

Valentine said:
Because, frankly, I'm repeating myself and clarifying the same points over and over again, and it seems like the conversation is trying to drift away from the initial point or you're trying to change what you originally said.

Also, to put it bluntly, I found that your current statements may or may not be well-founded, and I like prodding statements like that until they either make sense to me or are changed according to logic and/or provided evidence.

And, frankly, I've repeated my points over and over again and done one thing: told you exactly what I mean. Which, strangely enough, is exactly what you're saying as well.

Valentine said:
The point was that devices is an umbrella term that also covers elements. Yes, elements are not necessarily the same, but they're not completely divorced from the concept of a device. Moreover, a device doesn't just cover how an element is handled. It also covers the element itself.

Again, I never said that devices were divorced from elements. If you'll look at my own post, I said "I never said that literary device excluded elements or technique; I said that it was the application of both". Now doesn't that sound like me agreeing it's an "umbrella term"?

I think what the problem here is differing perspective. It's clear to me that we're arguing the same stance, but from different viewpoints.

You are a by-the-book college-educated (and graduated/almost graduated) writer, while I am an experimental writer that has yet to fully realize my writing career. You take terms and their exact definitions, while I take only their meanings. Our perspectives intersect, yes, but they are not entirely parallel.

Grovyle42(Griff8416) · Aug 27, 2009

What literary device (good examples) do you like to use most, which one the least, and which one would you like to write more of?

Foil, Foreshadowing, Motif, Omanopotaeia, etc. are ones that I like to use.

JX Valentine · Aug 27, 2009

Redstar said:
Literary devices refer to specific aspects of literature, in the sense of its universal function as an art form which expresses ideas through language,

I'm not sure why you bolded the part about language, considering it's just stating the obvious: literary = written language. It's not saying, "Writers are being artistic in their word choices." It's saying, "Yeah, uh, they're writing."

Basically, literary devices are the application of and expression of literary elements. Exactly what I said.

Click to expand...

No, actually, initially, you said that there's a definite difference between literary elements and literary devices, as if they're actually opposites of each other or as if the definition of literary device doesn't include the definition for literary element. (You seem to be narrowing it down to the parts in blue on that page, not taking it to be a general umbrella term that includes the parts in green, in other words.) In fact, I went back and quoted it in an earlier post, and I'll quote it again:

Now, the difference between literary elements and literary devices are how those elements are used.

And, frankly, I've repeated my points over and over again and done one thing: told you exactly what I mean. Which, strangely enough, is exactly what you're saying as well.

Click to expand...

No, it's not. I'm trying to say you narrowed your definition of literary device too much, and you keep either changing your definition to agree with my points or claiming that what I'm saying is exactly the same thing as what you've been saying all along, when it wasn't.

Again, I never said that devices were divorced from elements.

Click to expand...

Actually, yes, you did. If that's not what you meant, then it was a badly-worded post that actually said something you didn't mean, but the point is what started this all is the fact that your first post that explained the difference narrowed down the definitions to the point where you took literary devices to mean something that didn't cover the concept of literary elements but instead covered the tropes that fluffed them out, so to speak. You were saying that literary devices were the optional parts that good writers include, whereas I was saying (to further explain what the site was trying to explain) that it wasn't the optional parts but rather the whole package.

If you'll look at my own post, I said "I never said that literary device excluded elements or technique; I said that it was the application of both". Now doesn't that sound like me agreeing it's an "umbrella term"?

Click to expand...

We're talking about this post, where, no, I don't think that's what you were saying.

Shrike Flamestar · Aug 27, 2009

Guys guys guys. Come on, guys. This is exceedingly silly. I don't even know what you're debating about anymore but is it really something that important? Just cool down and back away. It's not going to kill anyone if you disagree over what a term means, one that has been used innocently enough and no one ever had any problems with until now. At least, not in public.

I'm no mod but I'm sure I'm channeling Astinus here when I say that if you must debate, could you perhaps do it someplace else? The lounge is supposed to be a happy place! Happy and full of crazy, fun times! Debating is not happy. It is ugly. And bad. And evil.

So yeah. Sorry that I (still) haven't R&R'd AEM yet Valentine, I've been sort of busy :S I'll get to it when I can...

JX Valentine · Aug 27, 2009

Well, it is about writing, so it's technically on topic. Moreover, we haven't yet broken out the "you're an idiot" stick yet, so it could be worse.

Besides, it's not like this is a new thing for me. I mean, really, it's a month in which I'm rolling on E when I'm not in a debate with at least one fellow member over semantics and literature. (Speaking of which, oh, Orange Sheep. Where have you and your sweet self gone?)

But hey, since I keep repeating myself and referring back to a single post from a page ago, I'll just leave it at that. I will say, though, that I know what I'm trying to say, and it's not the same as what the lovely dear keeps saying I'm talking about. That and I'm surprised I haven't quoted Inigo Montoya yet.

Shrike Flamestar said:
Sorry that I (still) haven't R&R'd AEM yet Valentine, I've been sort of busy :S I'll get to it when I can...

Totally fine. Take your time. I'm just happy to get reviews at all~~, and anyway, keeping the thread knocked back a couple of pages gives me an excuse as to why I still haven't finished a response to the ones I've received while I was away yet~~.

Miz en Scène · Aug 27, 2009

Shrike Flamestar said:
Guys guys guys. Come on, guys. This is exceedingly silly. I don't even know what you're debating about anymore but is it really something that important? Just cool down and back away. It's not going to kill anyone if you disagree over what a term means, one that has been used innocently enough and no one ever had any problems with until now. At least, not in public.

I'm no mod but I'm sure I'm channeling Astinus here when I say that if you must debate, could you perhaps do it someplace else? The lounge is supposed to be a happy place! Happy and full of crazy, fun times! Debating is not happy. It is ugly. And bad. And evil.

I'm in agreement with ths statement. Thank you Shrike. I've been silently watching this debate for the past 7 hours[could be less] not knowing what to add and wondering if anything would come out of this apart from the redefining of the term literary techniques and literary elements.
Basically [not trying to minimod], make peace or bring it to the VM arena because as Shrike said

The lounge is supposed to be a happy place! Happy and full of crazy, fun times! Debating is not happy. It is ugly. And bad. And evil.

Although, Debating can sometimes be considered a good thing. [no I don't want to debate on the moral implications of a debate so if you don't agree keep it to yourself]

EDIT: Val ninja-ed me. I have nothing more to add to the current topic.

Bay · Aug 27, 2009

Agreeing with Shrike here. A debate is fine and all, but if just two people knocking it out, the lounge can get messy. :x And Like I said, still somewhat confused over Literary Elements, Devices, Techniques, etc., but whatever. ^^;

Um...cake again?

EDIT: I too have been ninjaed! TWICE! :O

Valentine, true, but it seems you two are just repeating yourselves and seems the argument won't come to an end. 'kay, I'll end here. :x And no, you're not bringing Orange Flaffy here for another debate! :P *gets shot*

icomeanon6 · Aug 27, 2009

One thing I learned fairly early on here is not to face off against Val in a petty argument. It's a quick way to make yourself look stupid.

I feel like answering a question!

When/if you do travel, do you try or purposely (even accidentally), include settings akin to where you have traveled?

When it comes to what specific settings look like, I prefer to draw inspiration from the games and anime. I do include other things I pick up while traveling, though. I do quite a bit of backpacking and camping, so that carries over into my fics. It's mostly just little bits of knowledge that I get from other people on the trail. Since there's a lot of walking around in the world of Pokemon (until you get the Fly HM, anyway), I think little details about hiking can add a sense of authenticity.

EDIT: Wow, I got TRIPLE-NINJA'D. That's a personal best!

Miz en Scène · Aug 27, 2009

Bay said:
Agreeing with Shrike here. A debate is fine and all, but if just two people knocking it out, the lounge can get messy. :x And Like I said, still somewhat confused over Literary Elements, Devices, Techniques, etc., but whatever. ^^;

Um...cake again?

Yay cake. XD
Who does it belong to?

One thing I learned fairly early on here is not to face off against Val in a petty argument. It's a quick way to make yourself look stupid.I feel like answering a question!

True, Grammar is her forte after all. When it comes t literary arguments, I gave up a long time ago. Not trying to badmouth you redstar.

JX Valentine · Aug 27, 2009

Mizan Nix Zamnie said:
Basically [not trying to minimod], make peace or bring it to the VM arena because as Shrike said

Last time I checked the Fanfiction Lounge was meant to be about writing. It wasn't necessarily a happy place, and we're not flaming each other.

Look, the internet isn't Happy Fun Rainbow Glitter Unicorn Candy Land. Sometimes, I wish it was, but it's not. In every thread, if you say something off, someone's going to point it out because that's how it works here. Moreover, as I've said before, it's happened in this thread before, not necessarily always involving me (although I've had my share of "open friendly discussions"). It's on-topic, intellectual discussion that hasn't descended into "you're an idiot" yet, which means it's still in accordance to the rules and theme of the thread itself, and it's not the first of its kind. That means it's a mite better than "lolololololol offtopic spam THIS PLACE IS INSANE" like we've gotten last month.

In shorter terms, yeah, uh, why are you guys so surprised that this happens when this is what I usually do here? Unless you're Astinus telling me off, it's on-topic and not flaming. There's no problem here, but if you really feel like there is, try the report button.

Redstar · Aug 27, 2009

Valentine said:
No, actually, initially, you said that there's a definite difference between literary elements and literary devices, as if they're actually opposites of each other or as if the definition of literary device doesn't include the definition for literary element. (You seem to be narrowing it down to the parts in blue on that page, not taking it to be a general umbrella term that includes the parts in green, in other words.) In fact, I went back and quoted it in an earlier post, and I'll quote it again:

Now, the difference between literary elements and literary devices are how those elements are used.

Because there is a definite difference. There is no "slightly different" and "entirely different"... A difference is a difference, and I didn't find it necessary to specify the extent of that difference, just that there is one and how it is defined.

And no, I'm not narrowing down to blue entries because, as I said, I didn't even look at the page.

Valentine said:
No, it's not. I'm trying to say you narrowed your definition of literary device too much, and you keep either changing your definition to agree with my points or claiming that what I'm saying is exactly the same thing as what you've been saying all along, when it wasn't.

I'm not changing my definition. Are you honestly saying that I have to be weaselly about my words to win a petty argument? I'm not arguing here. I never wanted to argue. I feel like I'm defending myself because you simply felt like you wanted to target someone today, and if that's your opinion of a good writing discussion then I don't think you belong here.

Valentine said:
Actually, yes, you did. If that's not what you meant, then it was a badly-worded post that actually said something you didn't mean, but the point is what started this all is the fact that your first post that explained the difference narrowed down the definitions to the point where you took literary devices to mean something that didn't cover the concept of literary elements but instead covered the tropes that fluffed them out, so to speak. You were saying that literary devices were the optional parts that good writers include, whereas I was saying (to further explain what the site was trying to explain) that it wasn't the optional parts but rather the whole package.

We're talking about this post, where, no, I don't think that's what you were saying.

You said no one would be breaking rules until someone broke out calling the other an "idiot". Well, as a writer calling my post "badly-worded" is even worse. I said what I meant, and if you can't understand what message I was trying to get across or misinterpret it then it's not my fault. I edit several times before and after posting to be as clear as possible. So don't thinly veil your insults.

No, I can't keep saying this, but I meant the whole package. I have no reason to lie and have only tried to explain how I feel the same way as you, but you insist I feel differently. I don't.

(I apologize to Mizan, Bay, and Shrike over this, but I do consider Valentine my equal so I wont back down when I feel like I know what I'm saying and I'm being picked on for it)

Bay · Aug 27, 2009

Mizan, the cake I just googled, but it's from a website called Peggy's Decorating ideas. XD

Valentine, true, the lounge isn't always a happy place and yes, it's about writing. I was fine with the debate at first, but again I feel if you two keep going at it it won't go anywhere. And yes, I know also sometimes arguments and debates don't have a happy finish nor go anywhere. :x Hm, true, we seen you like this before, but most of the time you won the argument without the other person mad at you. ;)

Anyways, yeah, a debate like this might be better than off topic spam, but we think might get hostile if this keeps going. As for why we didn't report? It's not really flamming and such, but we feel we should warn you two.

Sorry about this, just trying to explain things here. ^^; However, knowing you, whatever you said next might make me look like an idiot here. XD;

Miz en Scène · Aug 27, 2009

Ummm... for the 6 people currently viewing this thread.

When writing using an area/region that is canon, do you try to stick true to the original design or do you modify the region or town to suit your literary needs?

To me, the current literary debate is ging in circles. IMO.
I don't really understand so I'll just leave it alone.

EDIT: How many times can I get ninja'd in one night. XD

Hm, true, we seen you like this before, but most of the time you won the argument without the other person mad at you.

I think the current debate is getting dangerous because of this statement.

I'm not changing my definition. Are you honestly saying that I have to be weaselly about my words to win a petty argument? I'm not arguing here. I never wanted to argue. I feel like I'm defending myself because you simply felt like you wanted to target someone today, and if that's your opinion of a good writing discussion then I don't think you belong here.

Again, sorry about this redstar but I'm an advocate of peace even if I am a sadist.

Elite Overlord LeSabre™ · Aug 27, 2009

When/if you do travel, do you try or purposely (even accidentally), include settings akin to where you have traveled?
More so in towns than out on the routes. Towns, I can easily model after commercial districts in places I've been to, including the big-box stores, restaurants, hotels, etc.

Heck, at the end of mine, part of a chapter actually takes place in upstate South Carolina. (though the Quality Inn in said chapter has been replaced with a Holiday Inn... blah...)

Redstar · Aug 27, 2009

When writing using an area/region that is canon, do you try to stick true to the original design or do you modify the region or town to suit your literary needs?
My main fic is based on the games, rather than any manga or anime adaptation, so I reasonably need to modify the original design a little. I draw inspiration from the Electric Tale of Pikachu specifically, as well as my own imagination, to flesh out the cultural aspects of of Kanto and Johto.

Several areas of prominence I've expanded or plan to are Mt. Silver, Lavender Town and the Pokemon Tower, and Kanto in general... I want to give it an earthy, forgotten feel.

Giratina ♀ · Aug 27, 2009

I'm not following any of this, so I'll just answer to the pretty words in bold.

When writing using an area/region that is canon, do you try to stick true to the original design or do you modify the region or town to suit your literary needs?

I will usually stick to the canonical region's design and layout while modifying my literary needs to suit it. However, if it's in a place that's a different time period than we have remembered it as in canon, then I think we have a little room for creative deviation - for example, Rowan wouldn't be Sinnoh's resident Pokémon professor in 1999 (the assumed year of Diamond and Pearl) and 2030. Those were both, by the way, random years.

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