Sandstorm Team

EDIT 3: I've updated this team through post 9 of this topic.

I used to play competitively back when it was just DPP. Then I quit for a long time, missing HGSS additions and then BW stuff. But I really don't have the interest to learn an entire new gen so I decided I would keep battling in gen IV. (and happily, I found that there were a good number of people on PO who wanted to do Gen IV as well)

Anyway, I had a team I was using before and it worked well, but I wanted to start with a new team. So here's my new Gen IV sandstorm team. It's mainly a stall team but I threw in a few sweepers just to move things along if necessary. I used sets from smogon and took some creative licenses with it to make something slightly unique.

Hippowdon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

I <3 this lead, not just in part because it's one of the few leads that can comfortably handle an infernape lead. Stone edge because I want flying types to suffer even more (and EdgeQuake), and roar to foil baton pass teams and to shuffle for rocks damage. I left off slack off because this guy is already pretty darn bulky, plus he has leftovers. Specially defensive to work better against those omnipresent Ape leads, as well as to keep him from being useless against other special leads like Azelf. Physical leads can generally be taken care of using EdgeQuake. (e.g., Metagross, Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, etc.)

Rotom-C @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Leaf Storm
- Trick

Cut form to deal with Swampert. Standard scarf Rotom-A. Timid nature instead of Modest to outspeed max speed Jolly Gyarados after a DD.

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 8 HP / 244 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Toxic
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Taunt

Taunt + Toxic despite toxic spikes because I need some answer to stall teams (esp., blissey switch-ins). I'm looking for another place to put taunt, but this seems to be the best place for now.

Forretress (F) @ Shed Shell
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
- Toxic Spikes
- Payback
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball

Gyro ball works really well for me, esp. to maul scarfed Flygons locked into outrage. I'm considering getting rid of rapid spin for something else because my team isn't really afraid of either form of spikes, and nobody's more than neutral to SR. So it seems like a wasted slot. Maybe plain ol' spikes? Or explosion? Or another support move? Ideas?

Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spd
Mild Nature (+SpA, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Superpower
- Roost

Stallbreaker. Necessary because I was getting walled a lot, esp. by the Skarmory/Blissey combo. Roost over extremespeed for durability and to allow him to stay in the game despite taking life orb and sandstorm damage.

Suicune (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

Because bulky waters are trouble for my team. Hopefully before she comes out, forretress will have already successfully gotten toxic spikes down, because she's mainly for stall. The sandstorm is useful in that respect, too--the only pokemon I can think of in Gen IV (at least, in OU) that resists both sandstorm and surf is Empoleon--and even then, after a few calm minds Empoleon will take a good amount of damage while being able to do virtually nothing in return. Lefties to bolster the stall strategy.

Concerns:
1. Roar or slack off on Hippowdon? Roar is useful to see more of the opponent's team and to shuffle for rocks damage, but slack off provides a lot of durability which he can put to good use due to the EdgeQuake combo.

2. What combination of Toxic, Taunt, Substitute, and HP Grass/Electric should I give to Heatran? Fire Blast + Earth Power + ? + ?

3. Should I replace rapid spin on Forretress? If so, with Spikes, Explosion, or some other support move? Also, if I replace rapid spin, should I change payback too (since it's mostly to deal with spin-blockers...which tend to be better dealt with gyro ball anyway)?

Thanks for any tips or ideas you can give me on my new team.

Seeing as you asked the following...

EDIT: Dammit, thought I was in the competitive battling center. Sorry!! Can this be moved?

Click to expand...

Since Forretress already provides Toxic Spikes, make Flygon an all-out attacker:
-Earthquake
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-U-turn
-Fire Punch/Fire Blast/Stone Edge
Nature: Adamant/Jolly/Naughty/Naive
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Item: Choice Scarf

How about you make Rotom-C actually hit Swampert, instead of scaring it right off? This also helps deal with your Water problem:
-Thunderbolt/Discharge
-Shadow Ball
-Leaf Storm
-Will-o-Wisp
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/208 Def/48 Spe
Item: Leftovers

Forretress can handle Dragons fine, however.

Alright, I made those changes. Thanks, PlatinumDude.

Buuuut. I just did some testing of the team on PO. Uhm...it was doing well at first, but I fought a team with like three pokemon using rest-talk, plus a skarmory using taunt, spikes, roost and whirlwind. I was annihilated. =/ Any tips for modifications to do better against both skarmory and rest-talkers?

you need to do better against Stall period. The best way to do this is to change a couple of your sets. First I'd like you to try out a mixed dragonite over flygon. Mixnite completely rapes stall especially when you have a spinner and lots of entry hazards to help him out. Here's the set:

Dragonite@ Life Orb
Inner Focus
Rash
252 Att | 252 SpA
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Superpower
-Roost/Extremespeed

Next I'd like you to fix that Rotom-C set. You're right your team has a lot of trouble with bulky waters. You also need a better way to revenge threats that are dangerous to your team. For this I recommend changing this to a Scarf Rotom set. Not only does this allow you to beat most bulky waters 1v1, you also have a handy pokemon to revenge. It even helps against stall with the ability to trick something like blissey to make it completely useless.

Rotom-C@ Choice Scarf
Levitate
Timid
252 SpA | 252 Spe | 4 Def
-Leaf Storm
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Trick

Finally I want to try something different in that last slot. Empoleon really doesn't fit with the rest of the team at all. I'd like you to try a Suicune in that slot. Suicune will really help you put offensive pressure on the opponent and gives you another solid way to beat bulky waters. I think you'd be best off with a Crocune set which will give you even more power against both stall and offense. Crocune absolutely adores having Toxic Spikes on the opposing players field too it means easier set up and sweeping for it. Here's the set:

Suicune@ Leftovers
Pressure
Bold
252 HP | 252 Def | 4 SpD
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Surf

Good Luck with the team.

Thanks for the post.

I like that dnite. But, is it a good idea to have a dnite with life orb when I'm playing in the sandstorm? Does roost fix that?

Choice scarf rotom is a good call. I'll do that, thanks.

As for Suicune, it's a beast, but is it okay that this really leaves me with no physical sweeper? I suppose mixnite could do that, but if I need roost to recover in the sandstorm I have to give up either superpower (in which case I lack power) or extremespeed (in which case I would only really be able to attack once or twice). I was actually original considering Gyarados in that spot instead of Empoleon. Think that would work better to serve as a physical sweeper or should I keep Suicune? Also...I'm probably missing something but, how does it beat bulky waters with only surf?

Heatran can already handle Skarmory just fine.

And your team could use Taunt in there somewhere, particularly on Heatran:
-Stealth Rock
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Taunt
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Item: Shuca Berry

or
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Hidden Power (Grass/Electric)
-Taunt
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb

or
-Torment
-Substitute
-Protect
-Taunt/Lava Plume
Nature: Calm
EVs: 244 HP/36 SAtk/12 SDef/216 Spe
Item: Leftovers

PlatinumDude said:

Heatran can already handle Skarmory just fine.

And your team could use Taunt in there somewhere, particularly on Heatran:
-Stealth Rock
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Taunt
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Item: Shuca Berry

or
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Hidden Power (Grass/Electric)
-Taunt
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb

or
-Torment
-Substitute
-Protect
-Taunt/Lava Plume
Nature: Calm
EVs: 244 HP/36 SAtk/12 SDef/216 Spe
Item: Leftovers

Click to expand...

Well, I don't think it was so much that I didn't have a counter to skarmory, more an issue with my team as a synergistic whole. I.e., Skarmory appears, heatran switches in, skarmory switches out to something like blissey. I switch in a physical attacker, blissey switches back to skarmory. If I predict and switch my special attacker back in as he switches to skarmory, skarmory switches back out before I have a chance to hurt it. So Dnite does help that. But I will look into one of those sets.

Also, I do pretty poorly against Gengar. Thoughts on that? Maybe give rotom the choice scarf set with full SpA and SpD EVs? If so, what would you pick between Modest or Timid?

Suicune beats bulky waters by simply setting up in their face. They can't do anything back except try to status it in which case you have rest to heal off the damage. Gyarados would probably work fine in that spot too, but Suicune just wrecks **** with Toxic Spikes down.

I'd use Roost on Dragonite, I just put Extremespeed in the slash in case you felt like using it. Dragonite is pretty bulky and can hammer anything on the switch if you predict right.

Susanoō said:

Suicune beats bulky waters by simply setting up in their face. They can't do anything back except try to status it in which case you have rest to heal off the damage. Gyarados would probably work fine in that spot too, but Suicune just wrecks **** with Toxic Spikes down.

I'd use Roost on Dragonite, I just put Extremespeed in the slash in case you felt like using it. Dragonite is pretty bulky and can hammer anything on the switch if you predict right.

Click to expand...

Alright, I added in Suicune, and put roost on dragonite. I haven't really had time to test it yet, because final exams are coming up, but now just based on theory, here are the remaining concerns I have. I know I'm asking a lot of questions about this team, but I really appreciate the time you guys as more experienced battlers are spending helping me out.

1. Roar or slack off on Hippowdon? Roar is useful to see more of the opponent's team and to shuffle for rocks damage (and to foil those annoying BP teams from the get-go, though I guess Heatran with taunt works for that, too), but slack off provides a lot of durability which he can put to good use due to the EdgeQuake combo.

2. Out of Toxic, Substitute, and HP Grass/Electric, which should I give to Heatran to fill his last slot? Fire Blast + Earth Power + Taunt + ?

3. Should I replace rapid spin on Forretress (since only Suicune and Hippowdon care about spikes, with Suicune being able to rest off the poison, and nobody is more than neutral to SR)? If so, with Spikes, Explosion, or some other support move? Also, if I replace rapid spin, should I change payback too (since it's mostly for dealing with spin-blockers...which, depending on the ghost's speed, is better done by gyro ball)?

1. Always use Slack Off on Hippowdon, since that's the best shot of recovery it has. Never everreplace it. The slot that's up for tweaking is Stone Edge's, where you can replace it with Ice Fang, Toxic, Crunch or Roar, but you can keep Stone Edge if you want.

2. Use Hidden Power (Electric) on Heatran, since you already have a Grass attack on Rotom-C.

3. Always use Rapid Spin on Forretress. Payback is something it can do without:
-Toxic Spikes/Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Gyro Ball
-Earthquake/Explosion
Nature: Relaxed
EVs: 252 HP/112 Atk/144 Def or 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers/Shed Shell