Filler

What do you think constitutes as a "filler episode" in the Pokemon anime?

You can't use the term 'filler' when it comes to the Pokemon anime, because a show needs a plot first to *have* filler.

Apparently the whole point of the show is just to waste time and dick around, so thus none of the show would really count as filler.
I feel if counted the opposite way, the show would be literally 95% filler, as the tournament episodes are so few and far between and characterization is virtually nonexistent.

Episodes which have nothing to do with the main story, I guess. Like episodes which dont include progression of Ash towards the league, you know. Episodes that dont include meeting a new pokemon, evolution, special training, etc.

Or atleast in my opinion that's what filler is.

Sloxy said:

Episodes which have nothing to do with the main story, I guess. Like episodes which dont include progression of Ash towards the league, you know. Episodes that dont include meeting a new pokemon, evolution, special training, etc.

Or atleast in my opinion that's what filler is.

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Don't forget episodes that deal with character development in some way, like them learning a valuable lesson or delving into a main character's backstory in any way. Oh, and releases as well.

To me a filler episode was any episode in which there wasn't any of the following:

1) Gym Battle, Pokemon League Battle, Tournament battle(this applies mostly to Unova with the various Tournaments), Pokemon Contest or Pokemon Showcase
2) Capture of a Pokemon or addition of a Pokemon via Egg or Trade for a Protagonist. Also applies to releases(those were rare though).
3) Evolution of a Pokemon for any Protagonist

If it doesn't meet any of those 3 conditions, it's filler in my book. An example are all of the "Pokemon of the Day" Episodes. Granted, some "Filler" Episodes were still worthwhile to watch.

There is none in Pokemon. This isn't a battle shonen.

There is no overarching story in this anime, it's an episodic kodomo (children's) anime like Doraemon and Hamtaro.

To me, a filler episode is any episode where:

-There's no important things happening: ie, a gym battle, tournament, Pokemon league, Pokemon evolving, Pokemon being released, Pokemon learning a new move, some sort of character development, etc.

So, for example, the episode "You See We Want an Evolution," where none of such occur, I consider to be a filler episode.

Also, I'm fully aware that Pokemon isn't a battle shounen....

Palamon said:

To me, a filler episode is any episode where:

-There's no important things happening: ie, a gym battle, tournament, Pokemon league, Pokemon evolving, Pokemon being released, Pokemon learning a new move, some sort of character development, etc.

So, for example, the episode "You See We Want an Evolution," where none of such occur, I consider to be a filler episode.

Also, I'm fully aware that Pokemon isn't a battle shounen....

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Not sure what point he was even making. Filler isn't exclusive to shonen.

CodeHelmet said:

To me a filler episode was any episode in which there wasn't any of the following:

1) Gym Battle, Pokemon League Battle, Tournament battle(this applies mostly to Unova with the various Tournaments), Pokemon Contest or Pokemon Showcase
2) Capture of a Pokemon or addition of a Pokemon via Egg or Trade for a Protagonist. Also applies to releases(those were rare though).
3) Evolution of a Pokemon for any Protagonist

If it doesn't meet any of those 3 conditions, it's filler in my book. An example are all of the "Pokemon of the Day" Episodes. Granted, some "Filler" Episodes were still worthwhile to watch.

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Wouldn't character development, of any sort, technically be of some importance, at least enough to not qualify as filler? After all, technically, under that definition, "Holy Matrimony" qualifies as Filler precisely because it doesn't match any of those three conditions, despite the fact that the episode revealed James' backstory.

Rad Dudesman said:

There is none in Pokemon. This isn't a battle shonen.

There is no overarching story in this anime, it's an episodic kodomo (children's) anime like Doraemon and Hamtaro.

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Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Pokémon's entire premise dealt with a kid trying to become stronger and having the explicit goal of becoming the world's greatest Pokémon Master, which, in past seasons anyways, involved outright winning at least one league by beating out other trainers and Gym Leaders in combat (of course, why the writers don't count the Orange Islands as a league, I do not know). That sounds like a battle shonen anime a'la Dragon Ball to me (besides, I don't think using 10 year old girls, girls who are prepubescent in other words, is even remotely appropriate for the Kodomo series' target age). Probably the only real difference between Pokémon and Dragon Ball is that the latter was taken from a manga, so there's a bit more strict of a definition of what qualifies as filler (namely, anything that isn't in the manga originally but added to the anime to give "padding"), while in Pokémon, there's more of a looser definition due to being an adaptation of the games, which, given the nature of them and having very loose plots, there's a fairly looser definition of filler there (personally, I'd consider AG to be nothing but filler, especially when there's no increase in Ash's rank, May gets replaced with Dawn only for her to do the same goal as her, and even the one major accomplishment Ash had in AG, winning the Battle Frontier, ended up being treated like a joke when Gary beat Ash despite not only Pikachu beating Regice effortlessly earlier, but also Gary being retired from training).

weedle_mchairybug said:

Wouldn't character development technically be of some importance?

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You'd be correct, hence the comment that some "filler" were still worthwhile to watch. I just happen to weigh those 3 things above everything else and even then, character development doesn't matter all too much when there's very little, if any, plot to begin with.

CodeHelmet said:

You'd be correct, hence the comment that some "filler" were still worthwhile to watch. I just happen to weigh those 3 things above everything else and even then, character development doesn't matter all too much when there's very little, if any, plot to begin with.

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I'm pretty sure the premise of Ash fighting to become a Pokémon Master and advancing (or decreasing, in one case) in rank would technically count as plot. Granted, there's no tight plot around it, but still...

Could the movies also technically count as fillers?

Sloxy said:

Could the movies also technically count as fillers?

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That's in the gray area, depending on the context. If they have an explicit reference to a movie in the anime (eg, Ash and to a certain extent James directly referencing Manaphy and/or Lugia from their respective movies in certain episodes), or otherwise have something that can only have appeared in a movie and it plays a key role in at least the episode (eg, Dawn using the Lunar Wing she got from the events of Movie 10 to stop Darkrai in one episode), or directly foreshadowed the movie in certain episodes (showing Mewtwo in certain episodes leading up to the first movie, as well as some elements in the leadup to Movie 10-12) or in the case of Drew, a major character hails from a movie location, or even being part of a series of movies where at least one of them was referenced in one way [eg, the Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, and Arceus trilogy movies] it's not actual filler by definition. Otherwise, it could qualify as filler if there's nothing contradicting it or showing it happened either. And then we get into stuff like Movie 20 and 21 where they are clearly non-canon to the anime (manga tie-ins aside), as well as very ambiguously canon movies like Movie 14 (which as you know is a two-for-one feature, a choose your own adventure set of movies if you will).

Majority of the anime is basically filler advertisement for the games but I think some episodes like gym battles, league battles and capturing team members/evolution of core team could be considered non filler. Contests, showcases, tournaments could as well. I don't know about the regional villain plots, I think they are not interesting and likely filler.

weedle_mchairybug said:

Wouldn't character development, of any sort, technically be of some importance, at least enough to not qualify as filler? After all, technically, under that definition, "Holy Matrimony" qualifies as Filler precisely because it doesn't match any of those three conditions, despite the fact that the episode revealed James' backstory.



Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Pok?mon's entire premise dealt with a kid trying to become stronger and having the explicit goal of becoming the world's greatest Pok?mon Master, which, in past seasons anyways, involved outright winning at least one league by beating out other trainers and Gym Leaders in combat (of course, why the writers don't count the Orange Islands as a league, I do not know). That sounds like a battle shonen anime a'la Dragon Ball to me (besides, I don't think using 10 year old girls, girls who are prepubescent in other words, is even remotely appropriate for the Kodomo series' target age). Probably the only real difference between Pok?mon and Dragon Ball is that the latter was taken from a manga, so there's a bit more strict of a definition of what qualifies as filler (namely, anything that isn't in the manga originally but added to the anime to give "padding"), while in Pok?mon, there's more of a looser definition due to being an adaptation of the games, which, given the nature of them and having very loose plots, there's a fairly looser definition of filler there (personally, I'd consider AG to be nothing but filler, especially when there's no increase in Ash's rank, May gets replaced with Dawn only for her to do the same goal as her, and even the one major accomplishment Ash had in AG, winning the Battle Frontier, ended up being treated like a joke when Gary beat Ash despite not only Pikachu beating Regice effortlessly earlier, but also Gary being retired from training).

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No, it's definitely kodomo and not shounen.

Kodomo: Aimed at children aged 5 to 8. These series are usually moralistic, teaching kids to stay in the right path in life.

Shounen: Aimed at boys aged 12 to 18. Sh?nen manga is typically characterized by high-action, often humorous plots featuring male protagonists. The camaraderie between boys or men on sports teams, fighting squads and the like is often emphasized. Main characters may also feature an ongoing desire to better themselves.

The Pokemon anime fits the former description more than the latter.

I agree, even Shounen seems more mature than pokemon, kodomo fits pokemon more even though pokemon rarely teaches life lessons and is more focused on getting the kids to buy their merchandise with their parents' credit card which is like the opposite of a life lesson.

Sloxy said:

Could the movies also technically count as fillers?

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In my opinion, no. They're in a complete separate continuity and could really be considered their own thing.

Rad Dudesman said:

No, it's definitely kodomo and not shounen.

Kodomo: Aimed at children aged 5 to 8. These series are usually moralistic, teaching kids to stay in the right path in life.

Shounen: Aimed at boys aged 12 to 18. Sh?nen manga is typically characterized by high-action, often humorous plots featuring male protagonists. The camaraderie between boys or men on sports teams, fighting squads and the like is often emphasized. Main characters may also feature an ongoing desire to better themselves.

The Pokemon anime fits the former description more than the latter.

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Technically, you could argue Dragon Ball and especially Dragon Ball Z was kodomo under that premise, especially considering all the moralism Goku preaches a few times (like the time he denounced Frieza for his mass-murdering runs just before fighting him for the first time), even though that is clearly shonen.

Besides, Pok?mon literally has Pok?mon leagues as part of the plot, even Sun and Moon might have them if When Regions Collide's ending is of any indication (which are massive sports competitions in all but name), and has Ash having to outright train Pok?mon for those leagues by fighting them, and he explicitly has an ongoing desire to better himself to eventually become the World's Greatest Pok?mon Master. Last I checked, that fits under Shonen far more than Kodomo. In fact, they're even having girls undergoing rather crass sexualization (and that part is DESPITE the fact that said girls are underage due to their explicitly being 10 year olds) which DEFINITELY wouldn't fit under Kodomo due to it being extremely inappropriate the age bracket (May, Dawn, even Serena to a certain extent. And let's face it, slapping big boobs on a ten year old or having a ten year old wear a skirt that's so short that even a tiny breeze is enough to see all the way to Florida, or in Serena's case, crushing on another ten year old in a manner more befitting of a teenager than an actual 10 year old. To put it another way, it's like saying Frollo's Hellfire was even remotely appropriate for a family film.). Heck, in AG, May actually stripped in front of company in one episode (and I don't mean the anime trope of how they throw clothes into the air and they're wearing new completely different outfits underneath. No, no, I mean actual literal striptease stripping, with Max actually PANICKING just before May did it. Granted, we don't see her get naked, but it's clearly implied from Max's reaction. I believe it was in the episode Brave the Wave). Sure, maybe Sun & Moon might qualify as a Kodomo anime thanks to Ash being confined to a school environment (though even THAT has hints of a Shonen element due to CoroCoro's coverage stating that Ash's new goal is to "graduate like never before." And that's of course not getting into the foreshadowed Alola League in the Kanto Reunion arc), but the anime as a whole has been purely shonen up to this point.

strangerhypno said:

I agree, even Shounen seems more mature than pokemon, kodomo fits pokemon more even though pokemon rarely teaches life lessons and is more focused on getting the kids to buy their merchandise with their parents' credit card which is like the opposite of a life lesson.

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Yeah, I'm sorry, but after doing sexual fanservice on several of the female leads starting with AG (in fact, probably the only female lead who WASN'T subject to that was Iris. Yes, even Serena was subjected, especially when her entire character arc dealt with crushing on Ash in a manner more befitting of a teenager than an actual 10 year old), many times being crass about it, they definitely aren't a Kodomo series by any stretch, being "mature" in the worst manner (and it's probably even WORSE in the case of Pok?mon since the girls they're sexualizing are explicit ten year olds, which means they're peddling what amounts to kiddie porn). Maybe Sun & Moon itself might be Kodomo, but the anime as a whole definitely isn't, even if it isn't Shonen either (and quite frankly, I find it hard to buy that an anime franchise that literally has Pok?mon Leagues, which are the same as, say, Budokai Tenkaichi tournaments to use Dragon Ball examples, not to mention Pok?mon Battles as the main part of the plot could not count as Shonen. I mean, what, should we discount Dragon Ball as a shonen anime especially when that came across as childish a few times especially in earlier seasons, even WITH the frank sexualization? And that didn't even start out as a story about Martial Arts, it was originally an adaptation of Journey to the West. The whole Martial Arts focus came AFTER the Pilaf saga.).

In my opinion, no. They're in a complete separate continuity and could really be considered their own thing.

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Movie 20 and 21? Sure, those are in a completely separate continuity (unless you count that manga where Ash literally relays to his fellow classmates what he did in Kanto that effectively acted as the Manga adaptation). I'm not sure ALL the movies should be listed as a complete separate continuity and considered their own thing. For example, the events of Movie 2 were explicitly referenced in the Whirl Islands arc, and even Movie 9 ended up being referenced in I think the Phione episode. Heck, Movie 1 actually had episodes actively foreshadowing the events of that movie as well (not to mention a TV special in Johto that confirmed that, yep, that movie was indeed canon), and Dawn even had a Lunar Wing in one episode, which she only got in Movie 10 (and it's not some throwaway scene, either: She used it to ward off that Darkrai). Not to mention Ash's aura abilities, which were given focus in DP, were first alluded to in Movie 8. Heck, Drew's hometown was a movie location (the primary location of Movie 7, in fact). In fact, if anything, there's more pointing to the first 19 movies at least actually BEING within the same continuity as the anime than as a separate continuity (well, okay, M14 is in the gray area due to it being a two-for-the-price-of-one movie/CYOA movie, but the others definitely would have fit into continuity). In order to be in a separate continuity and considered its own thing, the important rule is to NOT have them be explicitly referenced in ESPECIALLY the source they're supposed to be separate from at all, and especially not in a major manner.

weedle_mchairybug said:

Technically, you could argue Dragon Ball and especially Dragon Ball Z was kodomo under that premise, especially considering all the moralism Goku preaches a few times (like the time he denounced Frieza for his mass-murdering runs just before fighting him for the first time), even though that is clearly shonen.

Besides, Pok?mon literally has Pok?mon leagues as part of the plot, even Sun and Moon might have them if When Regions Collide's ending is of any indication (which are massive sports competitions in all but name), and has Ash having to outright train Pok?mon for those leagues by fighting them, and he explicitly has an ongoing desire to better himself to eventually become the World's Greatest Pok?mon Master. Last I checked, that fits under Shonen far more than Kodomo. In fact, they're even having girls undergoing rather crass sexualization (and that part is DESPITE the fact that said girls are underage due to their explicitly being 10 year olds) which DEFINITELY wouldn't fit under Kodomo due to it being extremely inappropriate the age bracket (May, Dawn, even Serena to a certain extent. And let's face it, slapping big boobs on a ten year old or having a ten year old wear a skirt that's so short that even a tiny breeze is enough to see all the way to Florida, or in Serena's case, crushing on another ten year old in a manner more befitting of a teenager than an actual 10 year old. To put it another way, it's like saying Frollo's Hellfire was even remotely appropriate for a family film.). Heck, in AG, May actually stripped in front of company in one episode (and I don't mean the anime trope of how they throw clothes into the air and they're wearing new completely different outfits underneath. No, no, I mean actual literal striptease stripping, with Max actually PANICKING just before May did it. Granted, we don't see her get naked, but it's clearly implied from Max's reaction. I believe it was in the episode Brave the Wave). Sure, maybe Sun & Moon might qualify as a Kodomo anime thanks to Ash being confined to a school environment (though even THAT has hints of a Shonen element due to CoroCoro's coverage stating that Ash's new goal is to "graduate like never before." And that's of course not getting into the foreshadowed Alola League in the Kanto Reunion arc), but the anime as a whole has been purely shonen up to this point.



Yeah, I'm sorry, but after doing sexual fanservice on several of the female leads starting with AG (in fact, probably the only female lead who WASN'T subject to that was Iris. Yes, even Serena was subjected, especially when her entire character arc dealt with crushing on Ash in a manner more befitting of a teenager than an actual 10 year old), many times being crass about it, they definitely aren't a Kodomo series by any stretch, being "mature" in the worst manner (and it's probably even WORSE in the case of Pok?mon since the girls they're sexualizing are explicit ten year olds, which means they're peddling what amounts to kiddie porn). Maybe Sun & Moon itself might be Kodomo, but the anime as a whole definitely isn't, even if it isn't Shonen either (and quite frankly, I find it hard to buy that an anime franchise that literally has Pok?mon Leagues, which are the same as, say, Budokai Tenkaichi tournaments to use Dragon Ball examples, not to mention Pok?mon Battles as the main part of the plot could not count as Shonen. I mean, what, should we discount Dragon Ball as a shonen anime especially when that came across as childish a few times especially in earlier seasons, even WITH the frank sexualization? And that didn't even start out as a story about Martial Arts, it was originally an adaptation of Journey to the West. The whole Martial Arts focus came AFTER the Pilaf saga.).



Movie 20 and 21? Sure, those are in a completely separate continuity (unless you count that manga where Ash literally relays to his fellow classmates what he did in Kanto that effectively acted as the Manga adaptation). I'm not sure ALL the movies should be listed as a complete separate continuity and considered their own thing. For example, the events of Movie 2 were explicitly referenced in the Whirl Islands arc, and even Movie 9 ended up being referenced in I think the Phione episode. Heck, Movie 1 actually had episodes actively foreshadowing the events of that movie as well (not to mention a TV special in Johto that confirmed that, yep, that movie was indeed canon), and Dawn even had a Lunar Wing in one episode, which she only got in Movie 10 (and it's not some throwaway scene, either: She used it to ward off that Darkrai). Not to mention Ash's aura abilities, which were given focus in DP, were first alluded to in Movie 8. Heck, Drew's hometown was a movie location (the primary location of Movie 7, in fact). In fact, if anything, there's more pointing to the first 19 movies at least actually BEING within the same continuity as the anime as a separate continuity (well, okay, M14 is in the gray area due to it being a two-for-the-price-of-one movie/CYOA movie, but the others definitely would have fit into continuity). In order to be in a separate continuity and considered its own thing, the important rule is to NOT have them be explicitly referenced in ESPECIALLY the source they're supposed to be separate from at all, and especially not in a major manner.

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You misunderstand. Kodomo, shonen, etc. aren't genres, they're the names of the demographics the manga/anime is aimed at.

Here's a run-down.

Kodomo - A manga or anim? for children.
Shojo - A manga or anim? for teenage girls.
Shonen - A manga or anim? for teenage boys.
Seinen - A manga or anim? for older men.
Josei - A manga or anim? for older women.

Pokemon isn't aimed at teenage boys, so it's not shonen. It's aimed at children of both genders, so it's kodomo.

Rad Dudesman said:

You misunderstand. Kodomo, shonen, etc. aren't genres, they're the names of the demographics the manga/anime is aimed at.

Here's a run-down.

Kodomo - A manga or anim? for children.
Shojo - A manga or anim? for teenage girls.
Shonen - A manga or anim? for teenage boys.
Seinen - A manga or anim? for older men.
Josei - A manga or anim? for older women.

Pokemon isn't aimed at teenage boys, so it's not shonen. It's aimed at children of both genders, so it's kodomo.

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I KNOW they're the demographics, and Pok?mon is STILL not a Kodomo series, mostly because in the original series, it was geared more towards families than kids (Takeshi Shudo's words, not mine), though I'm not sure what the appropriate term for "family show" is (NOT Kid show, there's a difference between the two, as "kid show" means its target audience is exclusively children, while "family show" means a show geared to people of all ages, allowing parents to be just as engaged as the children). I guess technically starting with AG it's geared towards children, but considering they subjected the female cast, barring maybe Iris, to crass sexual fanservice (something which Masamitsu Hidaka outright admitted to, BTW), it definitely can't be called Kodomo in practice, because you aren't supposed to have something as adult as sexual fanservice in a kid's show.

If it's geared towards children, that means it cannot try to sexualize explicit 10 year olds, in fact, it's not even supposed to sexualize many characters because the explicit target audience, children, are not even old enough to hit puberty yet. In fact, it's actually illegal, even in Japan, to push that kind of thing. Just look at that mangaka who got in hot water over owning child porn recently, for example. Want an American example of Kodomo? Try Barney and Friends, Teletubbies, Arthur, any Disney Jr. shows barring maybe The Lion Guard. I guess you can also go for the Mario, Mega Man, and Zelda cartoons as well if you wish.