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Perspectives on Atheism

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Then who created the person that created all of us? By that, I mean the atoms, and the quarks that make up the molecules that make up life. And obviously something had to create the Big Bang, right? Then who is that? That is God. Whatever that thing that created us is, that is God. It could be human, it could be a giant blue mass of worms, it could be energy from another dimension and existence, or something that is incomprehensible to us. But nonetheless, that is God.

You falsely assume everything had to have a creator. I've already provided a link to answer these questions.

I find the Bible to be an automatic source where I get my morality, though I don't revere it like others revere the American flag, and such. It is more of a self-help book, as no word can describe whatever I'm feeling, etc.

The bible also tells you to kill gay people. I certainly hope this is not a part of the morality you adopted.
 

droomph

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You falsely assume everything had to have a creator. I've already provided a link to answer these questions.
That's what I'm saying. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. But whatever is there, is what is there.
The bible also tells you to kill gay people. I certainly hope this is not a part of the morality you adopted.
It also tells me to let God do that whenever he likes. I would be stepping out of line if I were to do such.
 

Sir Codin

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That's what I'm saying. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. But whatever is there, is what is there.It also tells me to let God do that whenever he likes. I would be stepping out of line if I were to do such.
The question is proof. Without indisputable proof and empirical tangible evidence, declarations such as "It was God" don't hold much weight.
 
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I prefer to argue from reasonableness versus absurdity because nothing really is strictly indisputable. But absurdity is relative too :P
 
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That's what I'm saying. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. But whatever is there, is what is there.It also tells me to let God do that whenever he likes. I would be stepping out of line if I were to do such.

It's really a matter of interpretation, isn't it? We have religious leaders preaching to their congregations that women should not have control over their reproductive organs. We have religious leaders preaching that gay people should be rounded up and kept separate from the general population until they eventually die out. We have religious leaders even preaching that gay people should be put to death by the state. Every one of these leaders, I'm sure, genuinely believes that what they are preaching is god's truth. But is it really? Or is it simply that they are justifying their own prejudices by picking and choosing passages from the bible that they interpret to support their position.

And this is where, in my opinion, religion fails. Human beings are imperfect beings. We have faults galore, and inevitably, whatever we create becomes corrupted, whether it's a tool such as a hammer, or a belief system or a political system. Nothing we create is perfect, just as we are not perfect. When people created the concept of a god to explain the mysteries of life, they chose to make complicated what really was fairly simple to explain. God is a concept that is very difficult to explain, much less understand. Darwin's theory of evolution, on the other hand, is pretty simple to understand, and it does not require a leap of faith to reach that understanding.
 
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Yes! As a budding soon-to-be scientist I give Darwin my backing. But the only people who actually dispute Darwin are creationists, and they are pretty radical in themselves.
 
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I believe in both God and I accept Darwin's theory, not all people who believe in a higher power disagree with science.

@Jay - You are entirely correct. Organised religion does fail, especially in areas related to ethics. The problem with organised religion is that they take everything they preach from an outdated book written by monks who wanted to promote their own narrow and prejudiced views using fear of divine punishment as a means to do so. I don't think that any religious text defines the view of God because it wasn't God who wrote it, lesser beings such as ourselves will never be able to comprehend the great mysteries of the universe or God because we cannot even understand one another yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the point of this thread for it to act as a forum for two groups with opposing views to understand each other? Not to try and convert people to one or the other or argue the existence of God?
 
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Yes! As a budding soon-to-be scientist I give Darwin my backing. But the only people who actually dispute Darwin are creationists, and they are pretty radical in themselves.

Oh they are a looney bunch to be sure.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the point of this thread for it to act as a forum for two groups with opposing views to understand each other? Not to try and convert people to one or the other or argue the existence of God?

To an atheist, who contemplates the world using logic and reason and fact, it is very difficult to understand how otherwise rational people could be so easily made to believe in an imaginary being and follow a book written thousands of years ago by men who's understanding of the world was probably no better than that of a child today, and who believe that simple sheep herders all those centuries ago had a far better understanding of our world and our place in it than we do now.

To me, it is inconceivable. I shake my head in wonder that these people could be so easily duped into falling for what is probably the world's greatest con. I could never understand the religious because to me it just isn't rational.
 
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That's precisely what I'm talking about. That only applies to organised religion. I don't follow the bible, I don't subscribe to the views it perpetuates I simply believe that a higher power beyond what ever exists in our universe, above our laws of physics etc..., exists and is responsible for the chain of events that lead to the creation of the world we live in. I don't view God as the artist who carefully plotted each and every detail but as the person with a vegetable garden who planted the seeds and watched what they developed into. I am a very rational and critical thinker for the most part, I believe in the majority of sciences I'm not a religious radical like you seem to assume anybody who believes in a higher power is (no offence intended to you, but you do come across a lot like that).

I'm not asking you to subscribe to my beliefs but I hope that you can at least have the respect to not refer to God as imaginary. It doesn't bother me, I realise this is just your perspective but there are going to be others that are going to be angered or hurt by remarks like that and I figure you should know that, especially since you clearly are quite intelligent.

It is people like you that I was referring to (again, I'm not saying this with any malice) that are why atheists and those who believe in God or any other deity can't understand one other, you are unwilling to accept that the existence of God is a possibility and the religious are unwilling to accept that they could be wrong. I believe in God, but I realise that my beliefs can be wrong just like any others. My honest guess is the reason that Atheists can't contemplate being wrong and neither can those who are religious is the same deep down: fear. The religious are terrified that there may not be an afterlife and the Atheists are scared that an entity greater that what they comprehend may exist.
 
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Actually I wouldn't say atheism arises from fear. It's just that religious faith is unreasonable to us. Atheists do contemplate being wrong and that's how they arrive at atheism. A lot of atheist thinking is quite simply rational thinking - you're considering what bears the burden of proof, you try to be parsimonious in how you reach your conclusions, and you try to be skeptical. Every time you find yourself about to do a leap of faith, you second-guess and reconsider. That's basically it.

Now there is a big difference between not being able to understand and not being able to accept religion. You can accept without understanding and you can understand without accepting. And of course you can do both. I came into this thread trying to do both but probably accepting without understanding. My appraisal of how this conversation is going right now is that we're asking too much of acceptance and not doing enough understanding. This goes out to both sides of the argument.

I think a good place to start is a discussion on faith. droomph - you mentioned faith as a hope for the future, but everybody has that like Went said. By faith in a religious context I mean confidence without proof, whether it manifests itself as submission to the will of god or the acceptance that god is unobservable. For those of you who believe in a higher power, where does your faith come from?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the point of this thread for it to act as a forum for two groups with opposing views to understand each other? Not to try and convert people to one or the other or argue the existence of God?

And gimmepie you are on board.
 
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I am a very rational and critical thinker for the most part, I believe in the majority of sciences I'm not a religious radical like you seem to assume anybody who believes in a higher power is (no offence intended to you, but you do come across a lot like that).

I don't think religious people are radicals, but I do think they are perhaps afraid or insecure in their lives. Religion is a crutch, a device used to bring relief. And while this is good, it is also dangerous for eventually you could use that crutch so much that you become dependent on it.

I'm not asking you to subscribe to my beliefs but I hope that you can at least have the respect to not refer to God as imaginary. It doesn't bother me, I realise this is just your perspective but there are going to be others that are going to be angered or hurt by remarks like that and I figure you should know that, especially since you clearly are quite intelligent.

Respect is earned, not given. And until someone can provide me with verifiable proof in the existence of a supreme being responsible for all of creation and our continued existence, I can only view the concept of a god as being a figment of the human race's imagination. I'm a blunt individual. I speak my mind. I make no apologies for this. Most appreciate this in me because too often people lie to prevent others from getting hurt. But when the lie is discovered, it can cause a harm greater than if honesty is given first.

It is people like you that I was referring to (again, I'm not saying this with any malice) that are why atheists and those who believe in God or any other deity can't understand one other, you are unwilling to accept that the existence of God is a possibility and the religious are unwilling to accept that they could be wrong.

Not true, I'm more than willing to accept the concept of a god. Like the quote in my sig says: "By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out." In other words, keep your mind open to new ideas, but not so open that you'd readily accept an idea just because someone comes along who tells you it's the truth. I, for one, need more than someone's faith or belief to prove God is real. I need tangible evidence. And quite frankly, there is none that I can see.
 
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Respect is earned, not given. And until someone can provide me with verifiable proof in the existence of a supreme being responsible for all of creation and our continued existence, I can only view the concept of a god as being a figment of the human race's imagination. I'm a blunt individual. I speak my mind. I make no apologies for this.

If you don't give respect in a conversation, you're not going to be able to understand what the other side is saying. I'm not sure if you've read my last post or not, but you might have ignored or not considered it. These conversations are only useful if we have some common ground to start from.

It's not about your bluntness but about taking a step back and consider where they are coming from, and you haven't been doing that since it's all about proof vs. no proof. Why don't you try asking why not having proof is acceptable to them? If you can't get to the bottom of that, no wonder you'll be making the same arguments over and over.

You're trying too hard to not accept - or oppose, in other words - instead of trying to understand someone else's perspective. This is why I want to understand where faith comes from, because neither you and I have a conception of what that is, other than the fact that it's irrational.

The purpose of this thread, and gimmepie put it nicely, was to "act as a forum for two groups with opposing views to understand each other." Perhaps afterwards when there's more understanding we can open the debate into something actually useful. You say you need tangible evidence. This thread doesn't, at least not yet.
 
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If you don't give respect in a conversation, you're not going to be able to understand what the other side is saying. I'm not sure if you've read my last post or not, but you might have ignored or not considered it. These conversations are only useful if we have some common ground to start from.

Might I ask what common ground you think atheists and the religious have? And keep in mind I've suffered quite the bit of abuse from the religious just because of who I am, so in my mind I don't see very much common ground at all.

It's not about your bluntness but about taking a step back and consider where they are coming from, and you haven't been doing that since it's all about proof vs. no proof. Why don't you try asking why not having proof is acceptable to them? If you can't get to the bottom of that, no wonder you'll be making the same arguments over and over.

In the 40 years I've been alive on this planet I've constantly tried to understand where people are coming from (okay, maybe not as a kid, then it was always about when I'd get to play next). The problem is, the more I ask that question, the more irrational the answers become. After a time it became pointless to ask because I knew I'd get the same answers as before, and they make just as much sense now as they did then. None.

You're trying too hard to not accept - or oppose, in other words - instead of trying to understand someone else's perspective. This is why I want to understand where faith comes from, because neither you and I have a conception of what that is, other than the fact that it's irrational.

The purpose of this thread, and gimmepie put it nicely, was to "act as a forum for two groups with opposing views to understand each other." Perhaps afterwards when there's more understanding we can open the debate into something actually useful. You say you need tangible evidence. This thread doesn't, at least not yet.

I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone could ever believe in a god, unless at some point I was shown incontrovertible evidence of God's existence. You can't really understand something unless you've experienced it yourself. I can't understand what it means to be a female, because I'm male. Someone who is straight can't understand what it means to be gay, because they're not gay. Unless I suddenly because religious, neither of us could fully understand it. So I don't much see the worth of trying.
 
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Might I ask what common ground you think atheists and the religious have? And keep in mind I've suffered quite the bit of abuse from the religious just because of who I am, so in my mind I don't see very much common ground at all.

Sounds like you're not very committed to keeping an open mind. Coming from a different background than the rest of us is no excuse to treat it as a handicap when it comes to understanding others. I can tell you some things we've agreed upon in this thread: we believe in cause and effect, we agrees that humans are irrational creatures but can use reason nonetheless, that science can be compatible with reason, that it is difficult to explain the inexplicable and that religion can be analyzed in a rational framework.

These concepts are the foundation of this thread and the foundation of a constructive conversation that will lead to understanding between all of us. Because we have these common definitions and concepts, we can compare and contrast the way we think. You're misconstruing understanding how someone else could believe in a god with "incontrovertible evidence of God's existence". Perhaps because their belief is irrational so the evidence you seek is irrelevant to their belief system? That, however, doesn't prevent you from being able to understand why they would think that way. Just because you understand something doesn't mean you have to believe it. We can still grapple with irrationality within a rational context.

I don't know why you, as a gay man, don't see the worth in trying. What are allies for if you claim we "can't understand what it means to be gay"? I can't experience it the same way you can, but would anybody really be an ally if I couldn't understand what it means? The Venn diagram of gay and straight has some overlap, similarly to that of religion and atheism, as I have demonstrated above. The overlap is what I'd like to get at in order to come to a greater understanding.

Their explanation may not make sense, but you can try to understand why they would believe something that doesn't make sense to you. And that in itself is significant.
 

ShinyUmbreon189

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I HATE religion and everything involved with religion. Religion does nothing but cause chaos and wars. People can't accept that someone else has different beliefs than them instead they try to force they're religion down others throats and wonder why it started a feud.

I'm a christian but I don't follow the religion because I think it's bs. Nor do I try to change someone else's religions beliefs. If you're agnostic, you have the choice to be, if you're satanic you have the choice to be, if you an atheist you have the choice to be, etc. I don't know why people can't accept and get over the fact that someone else's beliefs are different instead they gotta cause chaos. God (if you believe in God) doesn't want us to spread the word like we're doing so, he don't want us to force it on others he just wants us to believe in the faith and that's all and try to spread the faith. If they don't accept it, move on, that's why I don't follow religion because it's gotten out of hand.
 
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Alright: I hope this discussion can lead to a better understanding between everybody along the continuum of faith.

If you want to say something inflammatory, you can do this elsewhere. But I don't want this to be hijacked in order for some people to express their hyper partisan views towards religion/atheism.

It especially doesn't help when you start of with hate in big capital letters.
 

ShinyUmbreon189

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I hate religion because of what it's caused that's all. From my understanding atheist seem to have an more open mind when it comes to religion or anything. They're atheist for a reason and nobody should chance they're perspective on it. I'm not trying to change you're ways I'm just saying religions is a major issue everywhere.

Being an atheist is just as normal as being a christian or any other religion. I don't know why people block them out of society or look down on them for they're choices. I don't know why people try to force they're religion down the throats of atheist either. I know lots of atheist and they will proudly say they are an atheist. They give they're reason and stop there. They don't argue against another religion and that's why I respect atheist. I don't care that they don't have the same faith as me, not everyone is entitled to the same religion it's a matter of opinion that's all.
 
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Sounds like you're not very committed to keeping an open mind. Coming from a different background than the rest of us is no excuse to treat it as a handicap when it comes to understanding others.

I'm open to keeping an open mind. I just have to be given something I can work with. I can guess as to why people may feel a need to believe in some power or force greater than ourselves. But so far, I've only heard that people believe because that is how they were raised. But not so much why they themselves sought comfort in such a believe.

I postulated this theory to my mother, who is a Christian (not of a particular denomination though). What if she was God? What if everything in this universe was God, both living and inanimate. In this sense God wasn't an entity or a force, but rather was a vast consciousness of which each one of us was a small part. The questions we have then are not of individual beings seeking to understand where they come from, but rather the universe seeking to understand itself through us.

She thought this an interesting theory, and thought it was a very real possibility. It would be an explanation that could satisfy both atheists (as it could conceivably be scientifically tested) and the religious. A novel that I'm in the process of beginning to write is based on this theory, only on a much smaller scale (planetary instead of universal).

I don't know why you, as a gay man, don't see the worth in trying. What are allies for if you claim we "can't understand what it means to be gay"? I can't experience it the same way you can, but would anybody really be an ally if I couldn't understand what it means?

I don't think a person has to actually understand something to be supportive of it. I mean, I certainly can't understand what it means to be female because I'm not female (though there are some times I wish I was one tbh), I still want to do everything I can to support them and defend them when they are being attacked (like those who seek to control women's reproduction organs by denying them birth control or the right to have an abortion). I think it's one of the reasons why I have more friends who are female than male. They know that I would do anything to make sure they were treated as equals by individuals and groups and governments (and yes, even churches), and also that I don't have any ulterior motives in doing so like trying to get into their pants.

So yes, I think an ally can be someone who doesn't understand what it means to be who, or what, the other person is. Because understanding, to them, doesn't factor into their decision to support someone. What does motivate them is their sense of right and wrong, and their love for their fellow human beings.
 
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