life after death

Mr. Downstairs said:

I forget the religion, but it's believed by people who follow this religion that we once all lived in an eternal paradise sort of place with God, and he sent us to Earth to challenge us and help us become stronger spirits, and that's how people tend to rationalize all the challenges that we're faced with in life. It's believe that God loves us as his children.

I don't really subscribe to that belief, because I sort of relate to you in that if God exist, I don't really understand why he lets us go through the things that some people go to. There are some truly cruel acts done to innocent people every day that I can't find any rationalization for, even ones that transcend humanity.

But also, religious folk put a lot of meaning in their life. They live to become more like Christ was. At least, that's what Mormons believe, and I think that's a good example to use here since a lot of people tend to view them as the most religious of all religions. Family rules above all, with the exception of Christ. But Mormons want to live to be the best people they can be, so they often do that by helping the less fortunate.

People who are religious tend to just use our life living to prove that they're worthy of living in Heaven, so really this is everything to them as well.

Click to expand...

The few Mormons that I have met are great people. But, as I live in Oklahoma, it is mostly Baptists. Unfortunately, most of them are exactly as I have described. They fling religious bravado around and exclaim that they are definitely going to heaven and they will have a *****in' good time while I burn in hell.

The few who really are Christ-like, I adore them. I appreciate them. They act in the stead of their savior and if there is an afterlife, they deserve the best of it.

elnoor said:

Ok so what is it that really bothers you is it existence of God or the pre-set path. Can you really prove to me what you believe is the absolute truth or am I so supposed figure my own different way of what this life really means or how the afterlife is supposed to be like.

Click to expand...

Seems to me like you just want to take the easy way out by saying "I am going to believe in something pre-existing and not use my own mind to come up with a reason as to why I am living".

Also it doesn't bother me if god does or does not exist, I personally believe that god does not exist and I don't lose sleep over that opinion, My problem would be that if someone was like "Here is your life mapped out for you, if you don't do it the way it's been mapped out you will be tormented in the afterlife".

Don't get me wrong, what happens when die is a wholly interesting topic. But for the most part, to me, it is also entirely irrelevant. I muse about it from time to time, but it's something I don't ever see myself finding the answer to, and something that I don't need the answer to. In it's most basic form, there are two alternatives that could happen upon death: Either something happens such as heaven, or you permanently fade out of existence.

If it is the former... I try to not to worry about it. The only thing that is guaranteed to me is this life that I am currently living. For that reason, I'm going to live this life to the fullest and try to accomplish as many things as I can--but above all, retain a relative degree of happiness throughout the most of it. If that means committing sins or violating other ideas that would bar me from this second life... than so be it. At least I would have lived this one up to its full potential, rather than questioning everything I'm doing with a tinge of fear that I'll piss off whoever runs this vast universe and make them too angry to allow me into that second stage of life. If there is something that happens after this life, well that is something that I will deal with when I get. There seems to be little, if anything, that I could do in this life to prepare for the next one anyway because everything material would cease to have meaning. I could only bring my experiences and knowledge to this second life, and regardless of how I choose to live, I will have said experiences and knowledge.

If it happens to be the latter, well I will no longer have a consciousness and thus be unable to perceive my death and it then, too, becomes irrelevant as it is impossible to comprehend it when I have become nothing. If I happen to be some disembodied consciousness trapped in eternal nothingness, well that sucks really bad, but then what I am supposed to do about it?

Should I feel ashamed that I honestly don't care all too much? I mean, it will come when it comes. I'll find out then. I'm too busy focusing on living right now.

elnoor said:

Ok so what is it that really bothers you is it existence of God or the pre-set path. Can you really prove to me what you believe is the absolute truth or am I so supposed figure my own different way of what this life really means or how the afterlife is supposed to be like.

Click to expand...

What do you find objectionable about figuring out your own way?

Alternatively: why do you believe that an answer can be found on what the afterlife is while you can only interact with people in this life?

Oryx said:

What do you find objectionable about figuring out your own way?

Alternatively: why do you believe that an answer can be found on what the afterlife is while you can only interact with people in this life?

Click to expand...

Hmm idk? If I was to trying to figure my own path what can I learn about the afterlife? I personally think religion is the only thing that has given answers unless there another source I don't know off. I am looking at it this way, if there is nothing to worry about that means a good person and tyrant who killed many will have same end result. So it would not matter if people held on to moral values and for every to act as they pleased. That doesn't seem fair or logical I mean even in this life we live in decisions people make wether good/bad has an affect so why would this not apply in the afterlife.

elnoor said:

Hmm idk? If I was to trying to figure my own path what can I learn about the afterlife? I personally think religion is the only thing that has given answers unless there another source I don't know off. I am looking at it this way, if there is nothing to worry about that means a good person and tyrant who killed many will have same end result. So it would not matter if people held on to moral values and for every to act as they pleased. That doesn't seem fair or logical I mean even in this life we live in decisions people make wether good/bad has an affect so why would this not apply in the afterlife.

Click to expand...

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. If everyone has the same result, that means literally all that matters is the life we're in now and how happy we are and how happy we make other people. The value of our life has nothing to do with the afterlife in that case, only with this life, and a good person would want to make sure the one life that everyone has is as happy as possible because they know it's all anyone has.

Do you consider someone "good" if they're only good to work towards a reward or to avoid a punishment?

As far as other sources - you just heard a bunch that are just as credible in these posts. Everything taught by religion was originally taught by a person before they died (there is literally not a word in the Bible written by Jesus or God himself, but by a man that was alive at the time), so these people have no experience with the afterlife. No more than you or me. Just because a lot of people believe them doesn't make their beliefs about the afterlife more "facts" than someone else's. Science gives us the answer that who we are is a series of chemical reactions in our brain and thus when we die we cease to exist for the rest of eternity. We don't wait or sit in darkness or transcend because we just don't exist. It's the same way it was before you were born, not something to grieve over. Just because you don't like that solution doesn't mean that it isn't one.

Oryx said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. If everyone has the same result, that means literally all that matters is the life we're in now and how happy we are and how happy we make other people. The value of our life has nothing to do with the afterlife in that case, only with this life, and a good person would want to make sure the one life that everyone has is as happy as possible because they know it's all anyone has.

Do you consider someone "good" if they're only good to work towards a reward or to avoid a punishment?

As far as other sources - you just heard a bunch that are just as credible in these posts. Everything taught by religion was originally taught by a person before they died (there is literally not a word in the Bible written by Jesus or God himself, but by a man that was alive at the time), so these people have no experience with the afterlife. No more than you or me. Just because a lot of people believe them doesn't make their beliefs about the afterlife more "facts" than someone else's. Science gives us the answer that who we are is a series of chemical reactions in our brain and thus when we die we cease to exist for the rest of eternity. We don't wait or sit in darkness or transcend because we just don't exist. It's the same way it was before you were born, not something to grieve over. Just because you don't like that solution doesn't mean that it isn't one.

Click to expand...

I think so yeah I mean are we not all in that category, if laws were not placed in society how would the majority of people act. My question is do you believe Hitler, Pharos, and the average human should all have the same end result with no punishment or responsibility for actions prior to death? And does it sound fair?

elnoor said:

I think so yeah I mean are we not all in that category, if laws were not placed in society how would the majority of people act. My question is do you believe Hitler, Pharos, and the average human should all have the same end result with no punishment or responsibility for actions prior to death? And does it sound fair?

Click to expand...

Why do you think the afterlife has to be fair? Is it something you want, or something you think is reasonable to believe?

Oryx said:

Why do you think the afterlife has to be fair? Is it something you want, or something you think is reasonable to believe?

Click to expand...

Yes it is something I want. Eternity of happiness with no worries or stress nothing but bliss no filth from this world that is not perfect where everything (literally)has a expiration date. Also no feeling of empty voids that cannot be filled.

elnoor said:

Yes it is something I want. Eternity of happiness with no worries or stress nothing but bliss no filth from this world that is not perfect where everything (literally)has a expiration date. Also no feeling of empty voids that cannot be filled.

Click to expand...

My question was "do you have any proof or do you just want it". If life isn't fair, there's no reason to think the afterlife is fair - it's not fair to the people born during time when the lifespan was 30 years that they were born at that time and die before we do now, but that's how the world works. It's inherently unfair. Why would anyone believe the afterlife is any different and think that idea has any rational foothold? You can believe whatever you want, rational or no, but when you start arguing that your idea makes logical sense and other people should believe it, you have to have more than "wouldn't it be nice?"

I have already stated that religion is proof as without it we would have not ever thought of an afterlife heaven/hell. If you take away belief in a supreme creator than this is what is left which I am sure is the same thought of many nations from before we live then just die and that's it. What proof do you have to be so sure?

Oryx said:

My question was "do you have any proof or do you just want it". If life isn't fair, there's no reason to think the afterlife is fair - it's not fair to the people born during time when the lifespan was 30 years that they were born at that time and die before we do now, but that's how the world works. It's inherently unfair. Why would anyone believe the afterlife is any different and think that idea has any rational foothold? You can believe whatever you want, rational or no, but when you start arguing that your idea makes logical sense and other people should believe it, you have to have more than "wouldn't it be nice?"

Click to expand...

I have already stated that religion is proof as without it we would have not ever thought of an afterlife heaven/hell. If you take away belief in a supreme creator than this is what is left which I am sure is the same thought of many nations from before we live then just die and that's it. What proof do you have to be so sure?

I apologize about the double post I started writing and forgot to reply lol. :)

elnoor said:

I have already stated that religion is proof as without it we would have not ever thought of an afterlife heaven/hell.

Click to expand...

Why in the world do you think that? Before religion, when we are still very young children, we understand the concept of justice. We want things to be fair. It's only logical to come to "people who are bad will get their due eventually", but they don't in life. Thus, it's only logical to come to "people who are bad will get their due after death." This is a logical series of thoughts a child could come up with, not something so clever only religion could think of it.

Because there is no physical proof of anything in the afterlife, my proof is merely logic, which I already explained to you - it is logical to believe that the afterlife is exactly what the beforelife was and that, as our electrical impulses stop, we stop. It is logical to believe that because literally nothing else in the world is fair, the afterlife would not be either. It's not logical to say that while everything else in the world is unfair, the afterlife must be because we want it to be.

elnoor said:

I have already stated that religion is proof as without it we would have not ever thought of an afterlife heaven/hell. If you take away belief in a supreme creator than this is what is left which I am sure is the same thought of many nations from before we live then just die and that's it. What proof do you have to be so sure?

Click to expand...

What exactly is this proof of yours? If you make the claim, you have to provide the proof for it, not us, and that is exactly what Oryx has asked you.

Religion doesn't have to be true in order for people to think of an afterlife.

Oryx said:

Why in the world do you think that? Before religion, when we are still very young children, we understand the concept of justice. We want things to be fair. It's only logical to come to "people who are bad will get their due eventually", but they don't in life. Thus, it's only logical to come to "people who are bad will get their due after death." This is a logical series of thoughts a child could come up with, not something so clever only religion could think of it.

Because there is no physical proof of anything in the afterlife, my proof is merely logic, which I already explained to you - it is logical to believe that the afterlife is exactly what the beforelife was and that, as our electrical impulses stop, we stop. It is logical to believe that because literally nothing else in the world is fair, the afterlife would not be either. It's not logical to say that while everything else in the world is unfair, the afterlife must be because we want it to be.

Click to expand...

I don't think children know right from wrong or understand the concept of justice these things are taught, you must agree with at least that. Ok if electrical impulses stop then we stop how are they created to be who we are with all the variety in this world?

Zekrom said:

What exactly is this proof of yours? If you make the claim, you have to provide the proof for it, not us, and that is exactly what Oryx has asked you.

Religion doesn't have to be true in order for people to think of an afterlife.

Click to expand...

Lol honestly I feel like I am by myself on this. What I am saying is if you take away all religion why would anyone even think of an afterlife. The only thing you would worry about is this life and that's it. So if what Oryx is saying is true then there is no after life whether heaven hell or sleep nothing. But this thought of afterlife period who came up with it?

elnoor said:

I don't think children know right from wrong or understand the concept of justice these things are taught, you must agree with at least that. Ok if electrical impulses stop then we stop how are they created to be who we are with all the variety in this world?

Click to expand...

But we teach justice whether or not we teach religion. I was not raised with any kind of religion at all and I was talking about fairness as soon as I could speak. Fairness is a value taught by our parents and in our schools with or without religion.

Creation is outside the scope of this thread but we evolved over tens of millions of years, incrementally getting better until we became who we are today. Just because life is complex doesn't mean it has to be created.

elnoor said:

Lol honestly I feel like I am by myself on this. What I am saying is if you take away all religion why would anyone even think of an afterlife. The only thing you would worry about is this life and that's it. So if what Oryx is saying is true then there is no after life whether heaven hell or sleep nothing. But this thought of afterlife period who came up with it?

Click to expand...

There are a few Christians on PC; however, they tend to be "believe what you want, they're both valid" rather than "I think my opinion makes logical sense". People think of an afterlife because of the concept of time and the concept of life. It's a natural progression. When there is a thing that's finite, people wonder what's beyond the borders. We tested the edges of the "endless sea", we tested the edges of the atmosphere, and we wondered about the edges of mortality. This is a natural curiosity. Humans test boundaries, and life is a boundary, so we test and think. It's natural and logical.

Just so you know there is a thing called Philosophy which explores how we were created, how we live, afterlife ect ect. So even without religion there would be Philosophy which would explore the possibility of an afterlife or something after death.

I don't understand why you keep dismissing the idea of thinking for yourself and making your own interpretation of what happens after death, someone like myself who doesn't believe in an afterlife obviously doesn't believe in hell or heaven.

Also, like people have said already children are taught right and wrong at an early age by their guardians or parents, I certainly didn't learn right and wrong from religion because I have never ever been in a religious upbringing but I know right from wrong.

elnoor said:

Lol honestly I feel like I am by myself on this. What I am saying is if you take away all religion why would anyone even think of an afterlife. The only thing you would worry about is this life and that's it. So if what Oryx is saying is true then there is no after life whether heaven hell or sleep nothing. But this thought of afterlife period who came up with it?

Click to expand...

Because it's something people don't understand.

Look at the old religions of the world... the ancient Greek and Egyptians. What did their religions center around? Myths. We call them myths now because they are old and deemed silly.

Properly a myth is a story or parable to explain a natural phenomenon by supernatural and celestial means. How does the sun move across the sky? Why it's lead by a golden chariot lead by Apollo of course! What causes thunder and lightning? Why a great god throws them from the tallest mountaintops then he's angry!

What things boil down to is people are scared of things they don't understand, and that they may never understand. It's a very natural and instinctual response. Death is a scary concept. The idea that one day you will cease to be. That there will be a painful experience that will lead to your end. Pain and the unknown will make many lose sleep at night.

So how do we soften this fear? Eternal life by some means.

You die in this world to go to a better one, a heaven or a hell depending on your actions in life.

You're reincarnated as another creature to life another life on this world.

You achieve peace.

You are now a spirit, watching over all those who still yet live and guide them on their journey.

You will rise again come judgment day. So take what you can with you. Even your cat.

You will be sent to a world of the dead, organized by your life choices to live forever in peace, or to be tormented for all eternity.

...

The question of death is life's oldest question, the heart of philosophy.

Religion is the result of man's curiosity and the desire to make sense of the senseless. Of course, now we explain things with science, and the more we explain with science, the less mystery there seems to be.

But trust me, there are a great many mysteries, questions and answers we never even thought of knowing or asking.

As for my understanding. We die, and there is nothing. No great sleep, no heaven or hell. We simply cease to be.

Religion is merely training wheels to make people feel more comfortable in this crazy ride called life. Once we remove them, we should be able to progress even further, unhindered by the stigma's and dogma of structuralized religions.