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Jury Finds George Zimmerman Not Guilty

Sir Codin

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Also:
Spoiler:
Yeah, I remember seeing that. That's why I'm unsure whether or not agree with this verdict, because I think with that it's safe to say that the sanity and credibility of Florida's judicial system is questionable at best.

I also have to agree that deliberately putting yourself into a situation where you have to use self-defense is a rather douchey move. So while Zimmerman didn't technically do anything illegal (at least not in the eyes of the Florida judicial system), his actions were still kind of morally dubious. He should've just stayed put like the police told him to.

inb4 Lawful Neutral
 

Zet

7,690
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The prosecution did fine. I do not understand the ignorant claim that the prosecution failed. The testimony of every medical examiner was enough to convict Zimmerman. He only got away with self defense because racism turned the case into a black kid giving someone a bloody nose (which was the only proven event of self defense in the entire scenario, and was in Trayvons/the states favour). Self-defense should not be an option for the one who started the conflict, especially when advised not to, especially when armed vs. unarmed, and most especially when they pursued the victim because of racial profiling.

But your right, Freaky, our legal system can't fail people it never was meant to, or intends to, protect.
Actually the prosecution withheld evidence: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...-whistleblower-fired-20130713,0,2426704.story

I'm glad to see he wasn't charged with murder, but this doesn't mean he's innocent of the death of a person. He has to live with that for the rest of his life, and no one should be able to condemn him for that.
 

Mr. X

It's... kinda effective?
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The prosecution did fine. I do not understand the ignorant claim that the prosecution failed. The testimony of every medical examiner was enough to convict Zimmerman. He only got away with self defense because racism turned the case into a black kid giving someone a bloody nose (which was the only proven event of self defense in the entire scenario, and was in Trayvons/the states favour). Self-defense should not be an option for the one who started the conflict, especially when advised not to, especially when armed vs. unarmed, and most especially when they pursued the victim because of racial profiling.

But your right, Freaky, our legal system can't fail people it never was meant to, or intends to, protect.

It depends on your definition of starting the conflict - He approached Trayvon, but Trayvon 'apparently' was the one who threw the first punch.

That said, he 'got away' because his injuries supported his claims of self-defense. These injuries were enough to give reasonable doubt that he approached Trayvon fully intent to kill him.

This is what people forget - Reasonable doubt. They forget that if reasonable doubt exists then a juror is supposed to vote not guilty.

It's a failing all right - But not of the justice system. The jurors followed protocol for this case, despite what people say or believe.

One thing that I feel hasn't been mentioned in this thread...

Are there any witnesses? I haven't heard of any on the BBC or reading comments. If so, it is just the words of one man against a dead boy who can not defend himself.

Whilst there may be doubt that he can be convicted for murder, I certainly feel like there should be repercussions for killing someone. As many have said, this isn't clear-cut self defense.


Also:
Spoiler:

In the court of public opinion he's guilty, but in the court of law he isn't.

As for the picture, people are ignoring a lot of things.

1 - She was convicted of assaulting him in the past, and ordered not to approach him.
2 - She violated this order when she decided to approach him. While it is true that she had a restraining order against this person, it's kind of hard to say that he was the one who violated it when she was the one who decided to drop by for a visit.
3 - She left the house, went to her car, got her gun and then went back in.

Self-defense is only applicable if you have a genuine fear for your life. She left the house and entered her car. At this point she is free from danger and could have decided to drive away. She instead decided to get her gun. At this point the stories differ, some say she shot randomly at the house (knowing full well that there were children inside) while some say that she went back into the house and tried shooting him (even though his children were in the same room) Still though, no matter the story she can't claim self-defense since she had already escaped the situation.

Is 20 years to much? I can't make up my mind on that. But because of her exiting the house and deciding to come back with a gun, she can't claim self-defense.
 
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5,983
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15
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Yeah, I remember seeing that. That's why I'm unsure whether or not agree with this verdict, because I think with that it's safe to say that the sanity and credibility of Florida's judicial system is questionable at best.

I also have to agree that deliberately putting yourself into a situation where you have to use self-defense is a rather douchey move. So while Zimmerman didn't technically do anything illegal (at least not in the eyes of the Florida judicial system), his actions were still kind of morally dubious. He should've just stayed put like the police told him to.

inb4 Lawful Neutral

The law doesn't regulate morality, sadly. Only Karma can bring justice to such actions, if it even exists.
 

EGKangaroo

Tail-bumps for all 'roolovers!
398
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12
Years
Well, I guess I am rather neutral on the outcome, given that the story was kinda overshadowed by other news stories here in Europe, but I cannot say I am exactly surprised by the outcome, though mildly disgusted that it even had to end this way for Trayvon Martin, who, even if he was the instigator, was punished for that in a way that was far beyond what he needed to get. Now, here are my careful, and hopefully not ridiculously wrong two cents on this.

In order to raise the issue of self defence in Florida, there must be some evidence that self-defence occurred in addition to any testimony given by the defendant (defendant testimony is insufficient). There must be some physical evidence or separate witness testimony that self defence occurred. If such evidence exists, then the Florida prosecution must prove it wasn't self defence beyond a reasonable doubt.

New York has a similar burden of proof setup if wiki is to be believed.

In most other states, self defence must be shown by "clear and convincing evidence" or "by a preponderance of evidence", depending on jurisdiction.

The below links kinda give an image of how the self-defence laws in Florida work in comparison to other jurisdictions, and why the burden of proof was with the prosecutors, who obviously did a shoddy job at disproving the self-defence claim beyond reasonable doubt. Basically, had this taken place in another state, Zimmerman would have probably been guilty...I think...

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida ... force.html

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense
 

Sir Codin

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Look, can we ease off the gas on the gun debate here, please? The gun itself is not morally wrong; irresponsible vigilantism is.
 
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droomph

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Apparently you all were lost on my sarcasm so I'm just going to make my point again.

Nobody here knows exactly what happened. Only two people do, and one of them is dead.

And secondly, there is without a doubt many people being murdered like that around the country, right this second.

But why does it have to be where two races are involved that it's big? This shows the huge amount of discrimination that still goes on in our country. We ignore the many black people in the 'hood that get shot every day and have things done to them in clear view of witnesses, sometimes whole neighborhoods of them, yet a suburban black kid gets shot with no direct witnesses and we all go crazy.

Don't we have to respect everyone the same?

Isn't that equality?

If so, why don't we treat every shooting in urban areas the same?

What happened to the 27 people that were shot in Chicago over the July 4th weekend?

What happened to the thousands of victims this year?

Why don't we give their families any comfort like we did with Newtown?

I'll tell you why - it's because Newtown incident was full of the "majority".

Like it or not, you have to admit - we try to help the "richer" ethnicity, race, or religion.

Believe it or not, everyone is racist.

And believe me, I'm not disrespecting anyone.

But it's true, and it's something all of you will have to face one day.

So delete this if you want, but my point is clear - if we have to respect this, we have to respect all of them.
 
5,983
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Look, can we ease off the gas on the gun debate here, please? The gun itself is not morally wrong; irresponsible vigilantism is.

I'm just expressing sarcasm. Oh and how race would've played a role if the situation was reversed. A healthy dose of cynicism and thought experimenting =)
 

droomph

weeb
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I'm just expressing sarcasm. Oh and how race would've played a role if the situation was reversed. A healthy dose of cynicism and thought experimenting =)

On the mention of thought experimenting

What if there was really a case of self-defense here?

What if he was being assaulted by Trayvon?

You know, you weren't there, you didn't meticulously go through each of the witness statements…

how would you know?

I say, express sorrow for the people dead and leave it at that. Revenge is never a solution, and even if it was, it wouldn't make sense to do it to something that likely didn't happen the way you thought it did.
 

Mr. X

It's... kinda effective?
2,391
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Apparently you all were lost on my sarcasm so I'm just going to make my point again.

Nobody here knows exactly what happened. Only two people do, and one of them is dead.

And secondly, there is without a doubt many people being murdered like that around the country, right this second.

But why does it have to be where two races are involved that it's big? This shows the huge amount of discrimination that still goes on in our country. We ignore the many black people in the 'hood that get shot every day and have things done to them in clear view of witnesses, sometimes whole neighborhoods of them, yet a suburban black kid gets shot with no direct witnesses and we all go crazy.

Don't we have to respect everyone the same?

Isn't that equality?

If so, why don't we treat every shooting in urban areas the same?

What happened to the 27 people that were shot in Chicago over the July 4th weekend?

What happened to the thousands of victims this year?

Why don't we give their families any comfort like we did with Newtown?

I'll tell you why - it's because Newtown incident was full of the "majority".

Like it or not, you have to admit - we try to help the "richer" ethnicity, race, or religion.

Believe it or not, everyone is racist.

And believe me, I'm not disrespecting anyone.

But it's true, and it's something all of you will have to face one day.

So delete this if you want, but my point is clear - if we have to respect this, we have to respect all of them.


I'll tell you why Newtown was diffrient - Because it was a case where 20 children were murdered in a single event.

All murders are saddening, but most are overlooked. It's only when a extremely heinous case happens, such as the murder of 20 school children, that causes a mass outpouring of support.

It wasn't because most of the students were white, it wasn't because of how much money their parents made, it was because so many were killed that day.

Most cases don't reach the news - Tragic deaths, yes, but to compare a case where one person dies to a case where 28 people died, 20 of them schoolchildren? Making a point or not, to say that the outpouring of support for Newtown was based on race or economic background displays a very vile kind of heartlessness.
 
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droomph

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yes, but you have to imagine. What if they were in an urban neighborhood?

They probably would have just gone "well, that's black people for ya" and forgot about it.

There's a difference. 20 white children getting shot? Heinous.

20 black children getting shot? Sad.

I don't think that's fair.

And believe me, that's what I see of the whole gaggle of murders on the news happening lately. When has a mass murder spree on the news happened in a black or urban neighborhood? They're all white. You can't deny that - either something is really wrong with white people, or we're overlooking something about the black population. And as I believe that all races are equal in crazy people, it's the second.
 

Mr. X

It's... kinda effective?
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The support for Newtown wasn't because twenty white children were shot. It was because twenty children were shot.

If twenty children are shot and killed in a single crime, then there will be a outpouring of support for the community, no matter the race, religion, or economic background.

While some cases are overlooked, when it comes to cases this heinous then there will be a outpouring of support.
 

droomph

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The support for Newtown wasn't because twenty white children were shot. It was because twenty children were shot.

If twenty children are shot and killed in a single crime, then there will be a outpouring of support for the community, no matter the race, religion, or economic background.

While some cases are overlooked, when it comes to cases this heinous then there will be a outpouring of support.
But has there?

Simply - no. There may have been black people in these incidents, but I've never seen a widely-covered news story about a shooting in a black neighborhood.

Show me some, please. I really do want to know where this "evidence" of "outpouring of support regardless of race" is. Any claims without support is invalid, and my support is that I've never seen a story like this that happened in a black neighborhood covered so widely as those two or three incidents.
 

Mr. X

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I don't know why that is...

Wait...

Could it be because nothing like this has... you know... never ****ing happened?

The number of mass shootings, mass school shootings, is rather low. And even then not a whole lot of them result in this sheer number of deaths, nor have a whole lot of them targeted children this young.

So I can't find you the proof you desire. And I'm damn glad I can't.

That said, you want to read about schoolchildren being murdered. Get some ****ing psychological help - You have issues.
 

droomph

weeb
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I don't know why that is...

Wait...

Could it be because nothing like this has... you know... never ****ing happened?

The number of mass shootings, mass school shootings, is rather low. And even then not a whole lot of them result in this sheer number of deaths, nor have a whole lot of them targeted children this young.

So I can't find you the proof you desire. And I'm damn glad I can't.

That said, you want to read about schoolchildren being murdered. Get some ****ing psychological help - You have issues.
Who said I wanted to?

I said I merely wanted proof that what you're saying is true.

Is that too much?

I feel like nobody understands me, and that's fine.

If it's going to be this way, it'll be this way. Live in your misconceptions and never venture out to see what else may be the truth.

I'm…going to sleep. I can't handle all this crap.

What I'm saying is, people of all races gets killed. It's a fact of life, and it's wrong. But why is it that only certain people get media exposure?

Aren't the 90 lives of the Chicagoans that were killed this year just as sad? Don't they deserve the same respect and condolences that these people get?

All I'm saying is - like it or not, we are all racist.

We can't change that.

But realizing that is one step towards a better, non-racist society.
 

Mr. X

It's... kinda effective?
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There was a mass shooting in Chicago that killed 90 people? I never heard of this happening.

Oh, wait... Your talking about 90 separate killings? Yeah, this makes more sense.

As I've said, these deaths are tragic and don't get exposure. But to say that a event that results in the death of one person is just a tragic as a event that results in the death of 20 children, and then go to say that the only reason reason it made news was because of the race of the children?
 
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BraveNewWorld

The Breaker
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Ignoring the fact that Zimmerman ignored orders to cease pursing Martin.. The main problem I have is this:

When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight mother****er!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.
This is from Zimmerman's account, so we can assume it being partially skewed in his favor. But we can clearly take one thing from it - the gun was the problem. We can infer that Martin came to the conclusion that his life was on the line after noticing the weapon. One of them was going to die, and each need to "defend" themselves by taking the others life. If there's no gun, then no life is lost.
 
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