Supreme Court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

Jay_37040 said:

As I said, I'm intolerant of intolerance. So long as I am shown intolerance, that is what will be given back in return. I'm old enough now that most of my life is behind me, not ahead. I don't have time to treat bigots with kid gloves any more.

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Forgiving≠forgetting. Please keep that in mind. In fact, forgiving means to remember. How can you forgive, if nothing bad has happened to you? However, it's to start over.

It's just like a video game with "lives". Everyone involved knows that you screwed up, and the "lives counter" at the top repeatedly reminds you of the fact you screwed up, but you try to go through the same thing without screwing up again, and try the same thing without doing the mistakes you did..

And "intolerant of intolerance"? I'm sorry, but I don't get that.

If you are intolerant of intolerance, aren't you intolerant? And don't you then have to be intolerant of yourself? And so on, to ad infinitum? That's the wrong way to live, especially for a person in a group that needs all the tolerance it can get and give.

And all religions get along with you.

For example, Islam and Judaism are closest to Christianity, so by default, their teachings advocate not to discriminate.

Buddhism and Hinduism state the path to Nirvana, or eternal peace, and nothing about moral living, other than guides for the weak-minded, which most shouldn't need anyway.

Traditional Chinese ideologies state that people should be respectful to others, and that is the point we're trying to make with equality.

Traditional religions, while some are crude and seemingly uncivilized for their human sacrifice and such, do almost nothing about morality other than recommendations, in order to please their gods.

I can't name one religion whose ideology doesn't promote a better world through equality and peace. It seems that you haven't caught my intentions and maybe I didn't say them clearly enough, but by the definition of the word "religion", all of them allow or promote equality, and none to suppress.

I am also trying to rise above the people, but the truth is, we have to ignore those who are loud and see those who don't speak as loudly. We will always try, but the truth is, the stupid people are always louder than the smart, because they don't know when is an appropriate time to stop talking. The best way to defeat them is to set a role model, and when the stupid people see that nobody cares about their opinion anymore, they will follow the role models and try to voice their opinion that way, and in the end will be a more effective tactic than to drown them out. I mean, if your neighbors were playing loud music, what's the worst thing you can do? Play louder music that you like to drown them out. But what does that solve? It makes them angry, and hurts you because you are doing more the exact same thing that you want to get rid of because it hurts you. But what's the best way to solve it? Ignore them, and when they stop playing the music, whenever that is, confront them politely and ask to be more considerate of others.

droomph said:

Forgiving≠forgetting. Please keep that in mind. In fact, forgiving means to remember. How can you forgive, if nothing bad has happened to you? However, it's to start over.

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Forgiveness can only come when there is an acknowledgement that a wrong has been done. In the eyes of those who are anti-gay rights, they are doing no wrong so forgiving those who refuse to repent cannot be given. I can only forgive those who have seen the harm they have done and who truly wish to change.

droomph said:

And "intolerant of intolerance"? I'm sorry, but I don't get that.

If you are intolerant of intolerance, aren't you intolerant? And don't you then have to be intolerant of yourself? And so on, to ad infinitum? That's the wrong way to live, especially for a person in a group that needs all the tolerance it can get and give.

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Would you tolerate a person who would act to suppress your right to your religion, or would you fight back against that person's actions to protect your rights? This is what it means to be intolerant of intolerance. It does not mean you condemn the individual, only their actions.

droomph said:

And all religions get along with you.

For example, Islam and Judaism are closest to Christianity, so by default, their teachings advocate not to discriminate.

Buddhism and Hinduism state the path to Nirvana, or eternal peace, and nothing about moral living, other than guides for the weak-minded, which most shouldn't need anyway.

Traditional Chinese ideologies state that people should be respectful to others, and that is the point we're trying to make with equality.

Traditional religions, while some are crude and seemingly uncivilized for their human sacrifice and such, do almost nothing about morality other than recommendations, in order to please their gods.

I can't name one religion whose ideology doesn't promote a better world through equality and peace. It seems that you haven't caught my intentions and maybe I didn't say them clearly enough, but by the definition of the word "religion", all of them allow or promote equality, and none to suppress.

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Based on their actions, I strongly have to disagree. Perhaps in theory, you are correct, but in practice you are wrong. There is a clear distinction between ideal and action, and it's actions that often speak louder than words.

droomph said:

I am also trying to rise above the people, but the truth is, we have to ignore those who are loud and see those who don't speak as loudly. We will always try, but the truth is, the stupid people are always louder than the smart, because they don't know when is an appropriate time to stop talking. The best way to defeat them is to set a role model, and when the stupid people see that nobody cares about their opinion anymore, they will follow the role models and try to voice their opinion that way, and in the end will be a more effective tactic than to drown them out. I mean, if your neighbors were playing loud music, what's the worst thing you can do? Play louder music that you like to drown them out. But what does that solve? It makes them angry, and hurts you because you are doing more the exact same thing that you want to get rid of because it hurts you. But what's the best way to solve it? Ignore them, and when they stop playing the music, whenever that is, confront them politely and ask to be more considerate of others.

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In my 40 years on this planet it is rarely my experience that ignoring something makes it go away. A very good example of this is the Westboro Baptist Church, an anti-gay hate group. People have been trying to ignore them for ages, and instead of quietly disappearing, as your theory suggests, they instead get louder, more obnoxious, until finally they can't be ignored any longer. We largely ignored the terrorist groups, treating them as nonsensical radicals who could do no real harm to the country (although steps were taken to protect the people), and then came 9-11 and the terrorists couldn't be ignored any longer. The country had to act. Granted, these are all extreme examples, but they all go to the point that ignoring a problem does not make it disappear. It can, and does, only make the problem harder to solve.

Your loud music scenario is an interesting one, because it ignores the obvious. Rather than counter the loud music with even louder music, you can confront the problem by calling the authorities to have your neighbour turn the music down. This is what I meant by making your voice heard above the haters. Certainly ignoring your loud neighbour's music isn't going to make the noise go away. You have to take action to do that.

perhaps you're right, but I'm just tired of all religious people being grouped under one lump, just as much as you are being oppressed.

If we can show them what joy peace and understanding can bring, then we don't need to speak louder than them. What can they do? We've already done all we can through the repeal of this act. Now we just need to show them why we're right.

droomph said:

perhaps you're right, but I'm just tired of all religious people being grouped under one lump, just as much as you are being oppressed.

If we can show them what joy peace and understanding can bring, then we don't need to speak louder than them. What can they do? We've already done all we can through the repeal of this act. Now we just need to show them why we're right.

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As you mentioned so accurately before, it's not religion itself that is the problem, but rather the leadership within the religious denominations that are the root of the problem. It's going to take a real concerted effort by the members of those churches to effect real change. Until that happens, though, sadly, nothing will change, and gays and lesbians will still be set upon by these leaders and the followers who believe as they do. Change can happen, but the people have to want it to.

The repeal of section 3 of DOMA is a great start. But it's a start only. Because in only 12 state, plus DC, are gays and lesbians allowed to married. That means, in all the other states, wherever there are gay couples in civil unions or domestic partnerships, the abolition of this act does nothing for them. They will still not have all of the rights enjoyed by a married couple.

But it's a voice that can be heard.

Just as calling the authorities doesn't immediately make the music stop, it's something that doesn't immediately make the discrimination stop.

And be optimistic. Instead of saying that there's 38 states that don't allow them to be equals, instead say that there's twelve states that do! It's slowly but surely defeating the wrong, so we should celebrate the fact that there are already twelve, which is twelve more than zero.

If you aren't convinced, think about the Civil Rights movement! It didn't just happen overnight, it happened over 65 or so years beforehand. And since we are in comparison to where we were in the 1960s, the end of the movement is near. We are almost there. So keep a head up and march forward.

droomph said:

But it's a voice that can be heard.

Just as calling the authorities doesn't immediately make the music stop, it's something that doesn't immediately make the discrimination stop.

And be optimistic. Instead of saying that there's 38 states that don't allow them to be equals, instead say that there's twelve states that do! It's slowly but surely defeating the wrong, so we should celebrate the fact that there are already twelve, which is twelve more than zero.

If you aren't convinced, think about the Civil Rights movement! It didn't just happen overnight, it happened over 65 or so years beforehand. And since we are in comparison to where we were in the 1960s, the end of the movement is near. We are almost there. So keep a head up and march forward.

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I don't think anything will truly ever put an end to discrimination. There are still people who don't think women deserve equal rights. There are still people who think interracial couples shouldn't marry, and there are also people who think slavery shouldn't have been abolished. We can fight to ensure our governments and our laws treat us as equals, but there is no law that can make an individual treat another equally.

I'm very thankful that I live in a country where all of the rights the LGBT community in the U.S. is fighting for has already been won. Of course we still face discrimination, but for the most part, it doesn't come from our government any more.

Time to get a little less serious, but here's how I see it:



(it's sorta PG-13 because it says "s***" twice so keep that in mind before you click)

But that's how I view the whole debate in about, not just in 50 years, but in 10 or so years. It's happening quick.

I guessed all the supreme court decisions correctly this week. I should have had money on this XD

Jay_37040 said:

I don't think anything will truly ever put an end to discrimination. There are still people who don't think women deserve equal rights. There are still people who think interracial couples shouldn't marry, and there are also people who think slavery shouldn't have been abolished. We can fight to ensure our governments and our laws treat us as equals, but there is no law that can make an individual treat another equally.

I'm very thankful that I live in a country where all of the rights the LGBT community in the U.S. is fighting for has already been won. Of course we still face discrimination, but for the most part, it doesn't come from our government any more.

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There's a fine line. Sometimes it comes off as trying to outlaw douchebaggery