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[Discussion] What Kind of Starter Kit Would You Like to See?

4
Posts
15
Years
  • Seen Feb 24, 2015
Yes, building a new engine will be difficult and time-consuming. Yes, it will probably not be popular with the average user at first because of the need for porting older games and learning the new API. Yes, there have been many attempts to create new engines that have sizzled out and failed. And yes, if the new engine does what it sets out to do, it will most likely seize most of the current users away from Essentials.

But what's so bad about that? Essentials is, essentially, flawed from the ground up because of the inherent restrictions. With proper design, a new engine may result in much faster development in the long run, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Being realistic about the amount of work required is one thing. Being defeatist is another.
 
24
Posts
14
Years
  • Seen Nov 17, 2014
People say that a new engine would kill essentials as if there are no contributors posting scripts for essentials as it is...

That is so far from true. What would kill essentials is individuals moving over to the new engine at their own will. Nobody is putting a gun to their head.

You're one of the people who would be working on this, right?

I'll ask again since I think it got lost in the doom and gloom. What skills and experience are you guys looking for when recruiting a team? I'm not promising to help, but I'd like to know.
 

Worldslayer608

ಥдಥ
894
Posts
16
Years
You're one of the people who would be working on this, right?

I'll ask again since I think it got lost in the doom and gloom. What skills and experience are you guys looking for when recruiting a team? I'm not promising to help, but I'd like to know.

We are not looking for people, so there are not any skills we are looking for. We also are not even at a point where this is even remotely confirmed as a project, just playing with a net really.

Marino can correct me if I am wrong.
 

Maruno

Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
5,285
Posts
16
Years
We are not looking for people, so there are not any skills we are looking for. We also are not even at a point where this is even remotely confirmed as a project, just playing with a net really.

Marino can correct me if I am wrong.
You are wrong. It's spelled Maruno. ;)

I can confirm that all we've done so far is spent an evening last week hypothesising about some wonderful new game engine. I've done as much with other people, and nothing happened there either. Nothing's confirmed, there's no fixed intentions, nothing. In fact, Worldslayer hasn't even spoken to me since then. :S
 

Worldslayer608

ಥдಥ
894
Posts
16
Years
You are wrong. It's spelled Maruno. ;)

I can confirm that all we've done so far is spent an evening last week hypothesising about some wonderful new game engine. I've done as much with other people, and nothing happened there either. Nothing's confirmed, there's no fixed intentions, nothing. In fact, Worldslayer hasn't even spoken to me since then. :S

Marino is in my phone's auto correct haha. I swear I added Maruno to it, but apparently not.

To be fair, I have not spoken to anyone on Skype since that evening. Saving Raven can probably vouch for that haha. I have been juggling a potential job opportunity with another Agency over the last couple weeks so that has been my number one focus up until pretty much last night.
 
15
Posts
10
Years
  • Age 33
  • Seen Jan 27, 2014
I only wish to do some things that aren't easy only with these two things, generally more global Ctrl+F features(for text, resources, script at events, etc...) and other useful things like ability to create loops at musics only with the engine.
 

FL

Pokémon Island Creator
2,444
Posts
13
Years
  • Seen Apr 22, 2024
There is a difference between keeping people grounded, and demotivating people sir. You are motivational.

You have not touched on any points in a manner that is even remotely supportive of theory crafting, not even provided jack in the way of being constructive. Instead, you opt to a "Sitck ot Essentials because it is not broken" approach.

OBVIOUSLY there is something wrong with Essentials at this point, as both myself and Maruno have been discussing something else.

I did not say it would be easy, anywhere in this entire thread, nor did I claim Rome was built in a day. You are sounding straight up pretentious with your last remarks, but I will disregard that.

Don't expect a response from me again, you are clearly the current problem that this idea has, not the number of lines that need to be re-coded for a new engine.

Basically, it's that I'd said:

I always prefer to unite ours efforts than try separate engines. In my opinion the benefits really not worth it.

So, okay, I start a better analysis of the new engine features that Maruno said:

  • Unlimited autotiles/map layers: Autotiles really are a good feature, but map layers rarely are a problem.
  • Faster: This is a good feature, but rarely is a problem.
  • More compatibility with other OSes: Less than 5% of the players uses Linux/OS X, but this will be awesome if there a easy way of porting the game for Android. I received several messages about if there a way of my game runs at Android, the last one I replied few hours ago. Really this would be a strong reason to do a new engine, but making a engine capable of porting both ways is VERY hard, even knowing that Android uses Java (and the Android API full of Activities, Fragments, Layouts, among others). High probably this is out of Maruno's scope.
  • Better support of gifs and audio files: Probably there's a way of fixing these things at Essentials, but isn't a high issue.
  • Being designed specifically to make Pokémon games rather than generic RPGs (e.g. almost all of RMXP's Database is unused in Essentials because it doesn't work how it needs to, thus PBS files): This isn't too necessary because of Editor. And text files are also easy to browse. But, anyway, this is a good feature.
  • Free: The best feature at my opinion, this probably will introduce more people at Game Development.
  • Potential support for 3D: Less that 10% of the users will successfully use this.
  • A more computer-based game design, including better screen resizing and mouse input (if you want): All doable at Essentials.

We have a good sum of useful features, but this, at my opinion, doesn't deserves adapting even half of Essentials huge number of lines of code, but if you, Maruno and others want to do this, I wish good luck.

People say that a new engine would kill essentials as if there are no contributors posting scripts for essentials as it is...

That is so far from true. What would kill essentials is individuals moving over to the new engine at their own will. Nobody is putting a gun to their head.
I totally agree. I only hope that the new engine would be good enough to totally overcome Essentials. I just want that the two engines coexisting doesn't make the community more divided.

I also don't see why everyone on here thinks "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" ROM hacking and Essentials exist side-by-side, and one can say both are still "alive". Even if it wasn't Maruno making the engine, on what grounds do you think a new engine is a bad thing? If I released an "Essentials Unity" engine tomorrow and it was "better than regular Essentials in every way," would people reject that too? It's called progress people. What if people refused to use computers because the typewriter worked just fine? If Maruno wants to make a new engine with the hopes that it will surpass Essentials, we should be helping him, not hindering him. If anything, we should be happy with the idea that the community may someday have access to an engine that is better and stronger than the current one.
The ROM hacking is a different case, since the people hacks not only one type of ROM, but several ones, and the rom hacking have very bads limitation (like a limited number of pokémon/moves/abilites/palette) enough for making a new engine.

If all people of ROM hacking focus at a game engine (just like Essentials) this will result in a united communty. we probably have a huge progress like: all gen 4/5/6 abilities and moves and a huge number of add-ons scripts, maybe we have even online battles!

I prefer to unite ours efforts, but ROM hacking have too many differences that the development with Essentials at point that the huge number of the games are the official ones with some different features. So, maybe the segmentation is necessary in this case.

I only wish to do some things that aren't easy only with these two things, generally more global Ctrl+F features(for text, resources, script at events, etc...) and other useful things like ability to create loops at musics only with the engine.
You Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V my post...
 
423
Posts
13
Years
  • Age 37
  • Seen Aug 31, 2023
i would like to see a fully complete rpg vx ace engine with online capability (tade and pvp) capable of all features from current game lists and using the database (also easyis combatability with existing 3rd party scripts (would love to use the materia script that i own for example)
 
15
Posts
10
Years
  • Age 34
  • Seen Dec 24, 2020
That starter kit, should it come into fruition, could be Ruby-compatible again. Maybe then it would be possible to port Essentials projects to it with relative ease, am I wrong?

I feel Essentials has it all though, besides non-accessible scripting (although mostly due to poor documentation) and incomplete stuff like non-working Abilites and the such, and that could be fixed with time. A new engine that surpasses it would be the best, but I'm pretty sure it's tiring work for you developers. If you're up for it, know I support you.
 

Sales_Kital

Champion of Sinnoh
18
Posts
16
Years
I would like to see essentially a Pokemon Essentials kit for RPG Maker VX Ace, maybe with a few new pieces of functionality as well as some modules like a Shadow Pokemon module that can be added easily but not in the basic version.
As for art style, I'd still like for 2d, possibly updated to have some things from Gen4(maybe not the 3d objects since those don't look too good in ace) but keep the more chibi styled characters as resized black and white sprites tend to look too blurry.
For gameplay, I'd like it to be similar to Gen4 or 5. Possibly with added functionality that can be used for contests and the like.

I know there's currently "Pokemon for Ace" but the kit crashes from catching a Pokemon thanks to it's Shadow Pokemon script, and I'm not sure if that script can be easily removed.
 

UnderMybrella

Wandering Programmer
280
Posts
13
Years
I think one thing that could help out a bit would be this: http://www.cocos2d-x.org/
It's an cross-platform base engine, and looks quite promising. It claims to support iOS, Android, etc.
I haven't used it, but I've seen some of what it can do. Plus, AFAIK it supports Tiled maps, so there's a potential map editor
 

Destiny.

The Absol Master
163
Posts
14
Years
  • Seen Oct 31, 2019
As a person who's seen as technologically savvy and has dabbled in scripting with 0 formal training, let me say that any of the scripting more complicated than the scripting in RMXP is probably going to be IMPOSSIBLE for the average user to use and let alone learn. Or I'm dumb. Take your pick. The documentation for most languages except the ones targetted at beginners is like trying to decipher an ancient language, though it does get easier with practice and it's quite easy to digest if you're doing something like CodeAcademy. Pokemon Essentials is, comparatively, covered pretty well in the Wiki, but nothing can help you at all if you're struggling with things like what || means and you have no idea how to describe aspects of scripting without sounding like an untalented n00b.

(Though RMXP/essentials is always going to be easier to use and more flexible than Rom hacking, which makes even the most basic graphics replacement look like a pain in the neck.)

Other things you need to consider is that while 3d graphics sounds absolutely awesome, making them is going to be crappy. I've seen and played lots of fangames made with Essentials which is pretty much awesome. Except for the fact that all the graphics are the default graphics. Making a single tile for a game can take upwards of an hour. Not all of us have that time to make even basic 2D assets fom scratch!

How long is a 3d graphic going to take? Firstly, you'd have to learn an entirely new program in order to make those awesome 3d graphics. Don't forget, if Smealum (the 3ds hacker) doesn't end up dumping the models we'd have to make everything (tiles, Pokemon) ourselves in order to unlock the full potential. Don't even get me started on textures and stuff. :/ I've played with Daz3d (which uses pre-existing 3d models) and it's way confusing even without building anything by yourself. Photoshop - which I taught myself - is at least sublimely easy to use.

I think the Pokemon fangame fandom can be split up into several groups.
People who play fangames and people who make fangames.
Of the people who make fangames, we'd mostly fit into Game development (pretty much RMXP (with Essentials) small group) - and Rom Hacking - (larger group).

If another engine came out, the Game development section would be fragmented even further into RMXP vs the new engine.

Then there will be all this fun stuff like fragmentation into the different softwares (Blender, 3DS Max, Maya and ZBrush). That software is going to require some specialist skill which only very few people will have. It's going to be unlikely that a person can both code well and art decently. Sure, it would be great if fangame making was totally co-operative, but let me tell you now fangames seem to have either decent script or decent artwork and it seem they are mutually exclusive concepts.

My point is, if quite a lot of people can't even handle/don't have the time for drawing 2D sprites (heck, even recolouring them seems to pose a massive challenge - which can be done in MS Paint) - which ought to be the BASIC MINIMUM REQUIREMENT of artistic ability - how does that even hint at the fact that people are capable of working in 3D.

I mean, I'm sure lots of people are capable of the things I've mentioned, but I've yet to see many released games with original 2D assets that are not copied from mass produced tilesets from sprite artists (and even this is in the minority). I'm just saying that I can't see many people being able to use 3D assets if people are already having trouble with 2D assets. If it's animation we're looking for, perhaps better support for gifs and if Smealum dumps the existing 3D models there would probably be a possibility for 3D.

But heck, if we're in it for animated things it's always going to be easier to manipulate existing 2D assets a la After Effects puppetwarp than 3D assets. If 3D software is so widely used, why have I only seen a single artist in my entire life use 3D software to produce an animated 'mon? The person is http://nyobakugan.deviantart.com/gallery/ I discovered them a few days ago. I'm not talking about paid professionals, obviously. I hang around often in places like Deviantart looking for art like that, surely if there was potential for 3d and the willingness to spend time on it, surely I'd have seen it by now.

But no, I haven't seen the potential in any released fangames. And even if some very few talented people are able to create mon like that, you'd have to remember that the quality of art is REALLY not representative of the average quality of art in fan Pokemon games. Not to sound whingy, but the artist in me sometimes cringes.

(It doesn't really help that the some of the seemingly best graphic fangames appear to be abandoned/unreleased projects insofar)

Obviously, I've got no complaints for what happens with the engine. It's not my place to dictate the future of where we're going/where we're going to end up. In fact, I'm happy and appreciate all the work that's gone into Pokemon Essentials. Simply put, it surpasses Rom Hacking both in usability and customisability by an incredibly large amount. If it is as simple as PE, I could ask for nothing better.

However, I'd prefer to see all the proposed features used to the fullest extent possible and maybe RMXP is more accessible. I dislike some aspects of RMXP - for example, tileset limitations and positioning tiles on a grid is the worst - but I also recognise that while it is not perfect and while there are things that I'd love to see - for example, all gen VI abilities - it is quite simple to use for something that versatile without going into the code and attempting to (and failing to) create it myself.
 
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DaSpirit

Mad Programmer
240
Posts
16
Years
If 3D software is so widely used, why have I only seen a single artist in my entire life use 3D software to produce an animated 'mon?
Maybe it's because you're on the wrong website for that. I barely see any models on deviantArt at all. Try checking model websites.


In my honest opinion, I believe that the next possible contender in the Pokémon engine search should be one with its own compiler, with its own language. Such a dedicated project would be very good for beginners, especially if it has its own scripting language specific for making Pokémon fan games. I say "should" because it is unlikely to happen, but if it ever does, nothing will be able to beat it. Perhaps it could even be as high level as to play back events as you add them (as in not adding them as text, but by adding them through the map and other editors).

If you guys really want a new kit, then why not think back on how Pokémon Essentials succeeded where others didn't and replicate it?
 

UnderMybrella

Wandering Programmer
280
Posts
13
Years
You cannot replicate dedication. You either just have it or you don't and that is really what made PE successful.

This. Regardless of what happens, any sort of new kit would need to have a team of dedicated members working on it. I honestly believe if a team of dedicated members was put together, a new kit could have, at minimum, a basic kit out in a year. While it might not be fleshed out and support very much, it'd be possible.
 
3
Posts
10
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen May 25, 2014
I would like a script kit for RPG Maker VX Ace. Our team is currently working on a Pokemon game using the Crystal Engine created by crystalnoel42 I believe. I've checked out the essentials for RPG Maker XP and it seems really promising. However, with a little experimenting with it I've noticed some compatibility issues with Windows 8. I'm not entirely sure if this effects 7 or not, but I do know that XP really doesn't have support for anything than Windows XP. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
3
Posts
10
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen May 25, 2014
Question: are you guys taking into account the potential cost for someone to develop on this new engine? For example, Essentials is free, but RMXP is $30. That's a reasonable amount of money. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but Unity Pro costs $1500 or a $75 monthly fee. It's completely unreasonable to expect any developer in these forums to put down that much on a fan game, so every feature you rely on in the case of Unity would have to be available in the free version.

Food for thought.

I'd gladly donate money in order to have a decent cross platform engine for Pokemon. If any developer is interested in doing something like this they should contact me. I have a goal of making the Pokemon Pangea. A Pokemon game with all regions available, along with a new custom one to connect all the ends. I would love to have our game available on as many platforms as possible. Our team is currently attempting to accomplish this using RPG Maker VX Ace. Although a Unity 3D engine would be way more beneficial due to being able to have the 3D aspects of X and Y...or perhaps even better.
 

Allgamesdude

The Creator of the WIP game, Pokémon Cosmic. Looki
283
Posts
11
Years
First off, one thing that would be TOTALLY AWESOME TO SEE, buil in either RPG Maker(any one of them) or IG Maker, would be a Pokémon Mystery DUngeon Kit. Build Dungeons using the map editor, battles in the real overworld, etc.

Also, is it just me, or who would like to see a Pokémon Game, fully functional, like those built and completed by dedicated essentials developers, on the UNREAL ENGINE. Jesus, those graphics are F***ing amazing! Imagine how much potential pokemon could have.

just saying.
 
401
Posts
19
Years
  • Age 29
  • Seen Dec 4, 2016
The amount of negativity in this thread is awful. I fully support the creation of new engines and starter kits as choice is the most important thing to someone who is looking to develop games. I joined this community nearly 10 years ago and I've been working with RMXP nearly every year since then. Essentials was a fantastic new development in this community and I was amazed that it was even possible to do such a thing.

I remember back when there were no starter kits, no engines, nothing. Just a few menu scripts and a half functioning monster catch script. (The best kit I ever saw was Blizzard's which I might have a copy of somewhere). The whole fun of game development was to find the features you wanted and mix them up all together to get the product you desired. Essentials, because of its simplicity, spoiled most of us in that it was the only option we had if we wanted to create a fully fledged game. Everyone's games ended up looking like each others and it was all derivatives of the same work. Choice is absolutely essential in such a community because it gives us the freedom to express our work the way we want. Maybe some of us want a game that can run on mobile systems while others want just desktop. Some may want online features, some may want dual screen systems. Certainly, there exist extensions to Essentials that provide such feature (heck, I'm guilty of developing them) but these extensions are not what's needed. What's needed are fully integrated solutions that don't require a user to be splicing scripts together.

A lot of people here are not aware of it but there is a fully functional Pokemon starter kit for RMXP in the french dev-scene called the Pokemon Script Project. It's features rival that of Essentials and what's funny is that I'm not sure the french dev scene are even aware of Essentials. Those of you that think if Essentials is discontinued then pokemon game development will come to an end are blind and naive.

This community is quite frankly dying and it's nothing compared to its glory days 4/5 years ago. A new engine dedicated to Pokemon games is exactly what we need around here to breathe fresh life into this stagnant area of the internet. It is, quite frankly, long overdue; especially considering RMXP came out a decade ago.
 
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